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[GendoIkari]

But would you believe it, when I went to go and sign up for World of Warcraft online, they said I still have to pay!!!

I really don't feel like I should have to pay to play that online, when I already bought some physical cards. Blizzard is so greedy. I'm boycotting Blizzard because of this, who's with me!



Yeah, that's pretty much what it sounds like when people complain about having to "pay for the same thing twice" to play on Goko. It's a different company, different game, etc.

[theory]

Moved to Goko discussion.

[pinkymadigan]

It's part of the vast divide between people that understand money and people that don't.

[Drab Emordnilap]

different game,

I would think that ideally it would be the same game. I understand it's a different "printing" of the game, but man would I be surprised to log onto Goko and see that Sea Hag was replaced with Charizard.

[dondon151]

I would think that ideally it would be the same game. I understand it's a different "printing" of the game, but man would I be surprised to log onto Goko and see that Sea Hag was replaced with Charizard.

I wouldn't. Charizard is so much cooler. Rawr.

[Beyond Awesome]

I would think that ideally it would be the same game. I understand it's a different "printing" of the game, but man would I be surprised to log onto Goko and see that Sea Hag was replaced with Charizard.

I wouldn't. Charizard is so much cooler. Rawr.

I don't know. I imagine that Charizard would burn through most of your opponents deck, effectively acting as a Chapel that you use against your opponents. Unless, you could use Charizard to burn your own coppers and estates, in which case it would be pretty cool.

[tolenmar]

Except it isn't a different game.

Whether I'm sitting at a table with a friend or playing via computer, I am still drawing five cards a turn, buying new cards, playing the ones I've already bought, and the game still ends either on three piles or provinces.

It's still the same game. Different implementation, yes, but it's still Dominion.

I've been staying out of these discussions for the most part, and I'll likely go back to lurking again after this. It just really bugs me when people try to claim it's a different game, so therefor you wouldn't be buying it twice. I garantee you this: If I had stumbled upon Goko first, I would not then be able to be convinced to buy the actual boxed sets. And that's because I don't need two different versions of the same game. Especially since each boxed set costs what the whole shebang costs on Goko.

But I'm on a limited budget, and I really want to finish buying the boxed sets. If I buy all of the cards on Goko, then I don't buy the next set from my local gaming store. And with Goko being in Beta still, and still tending to lag and stop responding (though less than it used to), it seems foolish to spend real money on it.  Plus, as has been mentioned in another thread, it is an online property.  Who knows in this world and this economy how long it will really be up.  I'll own my physical cards a lot longer than I'm likely to own the digital ones, and that means it's a waste of money.

No, I don't play WoW, and no I don't dump cash on facebook games either. It's a waste. If I buy something I want to buy it once, not once a month, or when I run out of virtual coins and can't progress.

Lastly, do I think I should get something for nothing? Should I get Goko for free just because I bought the physical copy? It would be nice. But no, they are a business, they need to make money to stay in business. It just won't be my money yet. Maybe several months down the road after I have bought all of the boxes, and I need something else to drop my limited monthly budget on. But it has to really work for me to do it.  Right now, in it's current state, I'm just not seeing it.

[Polk5440]

This seems relevant.

[Jacob marley]

Thing is, it is two radically different ways to play, both with their plusses and minuses.

The physical game gives a social experience that the on-line play lacks.  For me, that mostly means playing with my family.  (My eight-year-old cleans my clock with embarrising frequency), and for that reason, I personally would prioritize the boxes over Goko.

On the other hand, with three kids, the time we have to play as a family is limited, since when I get home from work, it's pretty much dinner, homework and bed for the kids. 

That is were Goko comes in.  The advantage of Goko is that you need only the time for yourself (in my case when everyone else is in bed) and you can play.  It is much easier than getting a physical game going, and allows more games in a shorter time.  In my case, for pure competition, Goko would be the winner.

In any case, the point is you may not like "paying for the same game twice", but in reality you are getting two different experiences.  And to get those different experiences, you need tow different companies with different business models to deliver them.  Thus, you pay twice.  If you don't want to pay twice, that's fine, just pick the experience you want and enjoy.

[enfynet]

This seems relevant.

I bought an Xbox360 to get Perfect Dark even though I still had my Nintendo64 in good working condition.

(The reason: I wanted to play Perfect Dark on a movie theater 30ft screen, and the Nintendo can't do that.)

[^_^_^_^]

This seems relevant.

Lol I found a bug on the site, I can hold down my left mouse button and upvote something more than once.

[Dargone]

Thing is, it is two radically different ways to play, both with their plusses and minuses.

The physical game gives a social experience that the on-line play lacks.  For me, that mostly means playing with my family.  (My eight-year-old cleans my clock with embarrising frequency), and for that reason, I personally would prioritize the boxes over Goko.

On the other hand, with three kids, the time we have to play as a family is limited, since when I get home from work, it's pretty much dinner, homework and bed for the kids. 

That is were Goko comes in.  The advantage of Goko is that you need only the time for yourself (in my case when everyone else is in bed) and you can play.  It is much easier than getting a physical game going, and allows more games in a shorter time.  In my case, for pure competition, Goko would be the winner.

In any case, the point is you may not like "paying for the same game twice", but in reality you are getting two different experiences.  And to get those different experiences, you need tow different companies with different business models to deliver them.  Thus, you pay twice.  If you don't want to pay twice, that's fine, just pick the experience you want and enjoy.

Yeah, that sums it up nicely. My wife and I are really enjoying Goko and we had no problem shelling out $45 for all the expansions. I think it's a steal personally...

[dondon151]

And as a person who doesn't have money to spend and hasn't paid for the majority of expansions that I play with IRL, I personally think it's a huge rip-off. But clearly these opinions don't matter.

(I purchased only Intrigue; my friends own Seaside, Prosperity, and Base, and I won Hinterlands, Alchemy, Cornucopia, and Base Cards from tournaments.)

[Kirian]

I like to consider things in terms of entertainment quotient (EQ), which is a scientific-sounding economic term that I just made up but describes a concept I've used for a long time.  The idea goes like this.  Consider the cost, C, of a single parcel of entertainment, and the total duration, D, of the entertainment derived from that parcel.  We must include an awesomenitude coefficient, A.  The value of A ranges from 0 to effectively infinite, but the coefficient for a particular type of entertainment varies from person to person.  (For me, for instance, 0 is "watching a historical reenactment of the second Council of Nicaea performed in Latin by octogenarians," and "HOLY FUCK I'M ON THE FUCKING SURFACE OF MARS I DON'T CARE IF I DIE HERE 'CAUSE I'LL DIE HAPPY" is effectively infinite, with online gaming in general scoring a solid 10.)

The entertainment quotient, then, is EQ = AD/C.  I usually measure this in hours per dollar.  I'll omit discussion of the procrastination coefficient (which increases the value of C) and the advertising correction (which decreases the value of D) for the sake of (relative) brevity and not making anything else up.*

Of course, an individual parcel of entertainment may have varying A, D, and C.  A midnight showing of the next Star Wars movie is going to have higher values of all three than waiting until it hits DVD or Netflix.  Nonetheless, a good action flick in the theater has, for me, an EQ of about (10)(2)/(15) = 1.33 hours per dollar.  A month of WOW, though, has an EQ of (10)(30)/(15) = 20 hours per dollar.  A good, cheap video game that entertains me for a lot of hours (Minecraft and Spacechem have done this to/for me) might have EQs in the 50+ range.

Isotropic has an EQ of infinity, as do various free online entertainments and, for that matter, television.  And I think this is part of the problem; isotropic has been a sweet deal.  Goko, of course, will have a lower EQ than Isotropic... but that EQ will increase over time as you play more.  Assuming comparable A for, say, wero, his EQ is probably already into the 100+ range just based on his videos.

Now that Goko is an approximately equivalent experience to Iso, I see Goko as a pretty good deal.

Dondon:  Winning those games at tournaments has its own opportunity costs involved, as does obtaining them as gifts or using friends' sets.

*The full equation is EQ = [A(1-m)]/[C + pID], where m is the marketing correction, p is the procrastination factor, and I is income/hr.  For the record, the awesomenitude coefficient for making things like this up is also in the 10 range for me.

[Jacob marley]

"HOLY FUCK I'M ON THE FUCKING SURFACE OF MARS I DON'T CARE IF I DIE HERE 'CAUSE I'LL DIE HAPPY"

So quick get married (or fast-talk the wife) and talk to these guys:  http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/27/group-aims-to-send-2-humans-on-mars-mission-in-2018/?hpt=hp_t1

Ok, your not actually on the surface, but it's got to have a pretty high EQ.

[Kirian]

"HOLY FUCK I'M ON THE FUCKING SURFACE OF MARS I DON'T CARE IF I DIE HERE 'CAUSE I'LL DIE HAPPY"

So quick get married (or fast-talk the wife) and talk to these guys:  http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/27/group-aims-to-send-2-humans-on-mars-mission-in-2018/?hpt=hp_t1

Ok, your not actually on the surface, but it's got to have a pretty high EQ.

Pretty certain having a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old is going to disqualify us.  (Not to mention I'd be disqualified for medical reasons. )

[Jerk of All trades]

I think the problem is Goko's card/expansion based micro-transaction model. They are charging us to buy virtual versions of cards. Cards I've already payed for in paper form.  When what Goko is offering is:
The ability to play online
matchmaking services
added content (bots, missions, solo/single player content)

Paying for these new services is a little more appealing, but they are giving these things away for free (except some of the single player stuff) and charging for a virtual copy of something I already have. 

Also, it is not exactly a different company (like with WoW and Dominion). RGG sold the rights to Goko, so we are still in a way paying RGG again for a virtual version of something we already have.

Personally, I only avoid Goko because Isotropic is a better/faster interface, and it's free.

[Kirian]

I think the problem is Goko's card/expansion based micro-transaction model. They are charging us to buy virtual versions of cards. Cards I've already payed for in paper form.  When what Goko is offering is:
The ability to play online
matchmaking services
added content (bots, missions, solo/single player content)

Paying for these new services is a little more appealing, but they are giving these things away for free (except some of the single player stuff) and charging for a virtual copy of something I already have.

Hey, did you know that Wizards does the same thing with Magic: the Gathering, except they charge full price?  Heck, you can't even automatically buy the things you have in real life; you have to buy booster packs!

I ask because it's been mentioned at least three times in this thread, as a rebuttal to this same line of thought.

Edit:  My bad; wrong thread.  It's the other thread where it's been discussed multiple times.

[pinkymadigan]

I think the problem is Goko's card/expansion based micro-transaction model. They are charging us to buy virtual versions of cards. Cards I've already payed for in paper form.  When what Goko is offering is:
The ability to play online
matchmaking services
added content (bots, missions, solo/single player content)

Paying for these new services is a little more appealing, but they are giving these things away for free (except some of the single player stuff) and charging for a virtual copy of something I already have. 

Also, it is not exactly a different company (like with WoW and Dominion). RGG sold the rights to Goko, so we are still in a way paying RGG again for a virtual version of something we already have.

Personally, I only avoid Goko because Isotropic is a better/faster interface, and it's free.

Okay, so you are one of those people I was talking about that doesn't understand money. Got it.

[dondon151]

Okay, so you are on of those people I was talking about that doesn't understand money. Got it.

Don't quite think that's the same thing. Nice going with the snark, though. Really got me going for a second. Not quite as condescending as I would have put it but hey, we can't all be good at being mean over the internet, right?

[blueblimp]

Hey, did you know that Wizards does the same thing with Magic: the Gathering, except they charge full price?  Heck, you can't even automatically buy the things you have in real life; you have to buy booster packs!

Saying "it's less money-sucking than MTG" is faint praise. Part of the reason I play Dominion and not Magic is that I'm not interested in a game that is designed to extract as much money from you as possible.

That said, I think Goko is a fair price for a desktop version of Dominion. (On an iPad, it's steep when compared to competition like Ascension, which is $5 for base and <$5 for expansions. I expect Goko not to get many sales on mobile until they bring the price down.)

[Kirian]

Hey, did you know that Wizards does the same thing with Magic: the Gathering, except they charge full price?  Heck, you can't even automatically buy the things you have in real life; you have to buy booster packs!

Saying "it's less money-sucking than MTG" is faint praise. Part of the reason I play Dominion and not Magic is that I'm not interested in a game that is designed to extract as much money from you as possible.

That said, I think Goko is a fair price for a desktop version of Dominion. (On an iPad, it's steep when compared to competition like Ascension, which is $5 for base and <$5 for expansions. I expect Goko not to get many sales on mobile until they bring the price down.)

I agree that ascension is a bit cheaper, but then it's a bit lower on the totem pole, isn't it?  I mean, Dominion has 20+ awards including SdJ; Ascension has a few fan awards and nothing else.  Nearly ten times as many people on BGG own Dominion as Ascension--these are, of course, only those people who actually spend the time to input anything.  The Ascension forums are about 6% as big as we are, in terms of posting.

Ascension has to be cheaper if it's to have any traction in a much smaller market.  And indeed the price point on the physical copy is lower--$40 per box for two and $30 for two others.  The cost to buy what Playdek has available is 15% of the physical game's list prices ($15 for apps, $100 for physical games).

And yet... base Dominion is free, and each expansion is ~$7.  I got all available expansions and the base game for $40, and their total list price is $325... so that's 12%.  14% is you ignore the list price for what you get free.

[Ozle]

You paid for a paper copy of dominion, if you want a virtual copy as well to play against online bots and people it costs extra.

How are people making this complicated.

(Still, at least we seemed to have moved on from the 'But Iso is free' for now)

[pinkymadigan]

Okay, so you are on of those people I was talking about that doesn't understand money. Got it.

Don't quite think that's the same thing. Nice going with the snark, though. Really got me going for a second. Not quite as condescending as I would have put it but hey, we can't all be good at being mean over the internet, right?

Look, based on JOAT's post, he clearly does not understand money. You can defend his point of view if you want, but saying "I already paid for the physical copy of it, give me the virtual" is about as ignorant as you can get. Let's leave the whole "how are you going to prove you bought an expansion" argument alone and look at some facts:

1 - They have to monetize the game in some way (since they are a company intending to be profitable).
2 - They have the right to decide what to monetize and how to monetize it.
3 - You do not have the rights to virtual goods that they create until you pay them for the rights or they explicitly grant them to you for some other reason.
4 - You still have complete access to the physical cards that you have paid for, nothing has been taken away.
5- When you bought your physical cards, there was no transference of rights for the equivalent virtual goods. It doesn't say it on the box, it doesn't say it on the cards, it doesn't say it on the manual.

Deal with it.

[Jerk of All trades]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth, and attacking an argument I'm not making.  And I "don't understand money." My arguments do have flaws, but they have nothing to do with understanding "money."  Virtual goods, perhaps, but wow, your attacks are just stupid.

My argument is that we live in an age where virtual goods are REGULARLY offered as an incentive for buying physical goods. (Getting free versions of MP3s when you buy a CD/DVD. In-game bonuses when you pre-order box copies from certain retailers. Soundtracks, artwork, etc when you buy collector editions.)

Are we owed these things? Certainly not. Does Goko have the right to re-coup their investment buying the rights to online Dominion, and developing the game, absolutely.

I was simply arguing 2 things: 1 The original strawman argument was really bad, because WoW and dominion are totally unrelated, while Goko and RGG are related, because I'm paying for something that Goko bought from RGG (who sold me the paper cards). The fact that Goko and RGG are 2 different companies is almost irrelevant to any arguments about whether you should or should not pay for virtual cards.

And 2, that Goko's plan for monetization is a poor one. They are charging for something people are used to getting as an incentive.  Just because you are giving a subcontracted company your money doesn't remove this distaste that many consumers will feel at this concept. It is akin do going into McDonalds one day and finding that you have to pay 5cents for new, super absorbent napkins (being sold by some subcontractor of McDonalds). Does McDonald's "owe" us napkins? no. But people are used to the idea that If I pay for a meal, I get certain incentives for free. (napkins, sitting in an air-conditioned environment, etc)? Yes

Why do you think that virtually no restaurants charge for a cup of water, despite the cost of the cup being higher than the soda/coffee/tea that you'd pay 1-3$ to fill it with? People are accustomed to free water when you buy a meal.

I think Goko would be much better off charging a monthly fee, or making advertising revenue. I'm no business expert, but reoccurring revenue can be much greater in the long run. Right now they can only hope to make 40-50$ a user. Plus only a limited number of people actually have to buy all the cards and can be "hosts."  Where if they charged even an extremely low fee like 2$ a month, they'd make 50$ a year from my wife and I. But as a brainwashed consumer I find that more palatable then paying the same cost for something I am used to getting for free. Clearly it's not logical, but good businessmen to not bank on consumers being logical.