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Author Topic: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?  (Read 7303 times)

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ConMan

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2013, 05:47:39 pm »
+4

Here's how I read this:

"During your Buy phase ..."
Whose Buy phase is it? It's Bob's Buy Phase! So "you" on this card is Bob.
"this costs $2 less per action you have in play."
Since the "you" is Bob, Peddler is counting Bob's actions, and Bob's actions alone (none of Alice's Durations count). Does the cost count only for Bob? No, because then it would say "this costs ... for you".

"When you gain this ..."
Who's gaining this? Alice is gaining this! So "you" on this card is Alice.

So, if Bob has 3 actions in play then Peddler now costs $2, and so when Bob buys the Border Village and Alice gains it, she can choose to gain a Peddler as it now costs less than the Border Village.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2013, 06:03:33 pm »
0

The text on Peddler is insufficient. The text in the rules reads "During Buy phases, this costs $2 less per action you have in play. This cost applies to all Peddler cards, including ones in hands and decks" (emphasis mine).

The text of the rules, read literally, is probably wrong since each player has a different number of actions in play and so the Peddler cards in the game should have multiple costs. I believe the sensible thing to do is to read the 'you' in the first sentence of the rules as referring to the player whose buy phase it currently is, per dondon151's original dismissal of the question.

"You" applies to the player whose buy phase it is.  This is implied by the second part of the quoted rule which you bolded, where it says "including ones in hands and decks".  Each player has only one hand of cards, so the plural means it references all players hands.
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Donald X.

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2013, 06:11:51 pm »
+8

Suppose Alice is playing Dominion versus Bob.  Alice plays a Possession.  During the Possession round, which is one of Bob's turns, Bob plays two Action cards, and then buys a Border Village.  Possession kicks in, and Alice gains the Border Village instead, allowing Alice to gain a card costing less than $6 (Assume no Highway, Bridge, Princess, or Quarry was played).  Alice wants to gain a Peddler.  For Bob, it's clear that Peddler only costs $4.  But Peddler says that the cost drops during *your* buy phase.  So can Alice gain a Peddler off of a Border Village gain during Bob's buy phase?

My hunch is that Alice cannot, but I'm not entirely sure.  Moreover, Goko currently displays Peddler as being at a reduced cost to me during my opponents' buy phases, which I suspect is wrong.

Is Peddler the only card whose cost can be different for different players?
There is no such card.

Alice possesses Bob.

During Bob's buy phase, Peddler costs $2 less per action card Bob has in play. That's what Peddler says. Suppose you are Alice and you are reading Peddler. "During your buy phase..." It isn't your buy phase so nothing happens there. Suppose you are Bob and you are reading Peddler. "During your buy phase..." Yes, it's your buy phase, let's read on. Peddler costs less, very good.

Peddler doesn't say "costs less for you personally" or some such. It just costs less during that time period. It is only ever one player's buy phase at a time; for that player, Peddler's rule causes it to cost less, and this cost change applies to everyone.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2013, 09:37:49 pm »
0

OK, it makes sense to me now.  To me it seemed to take a lot of thought to see why the costs should be the same.  I mean, Alice wants to pick a card costing less than $6.  She picks up a Peddler to read, and it tells her that it costs less during her buy phase.  "Oh well, not my buy phase" she'd naturally think.  For this reason it used to irk me that Goko would show me the price drop, but I thought maybe it never mattered, until I thought of the Possession/Border Village scenario earlier today.
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Tables

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2013, 08:13:46 am »
+1

Again, why would I ask the question here if I had the sort of certainty that you are accusing me of?  Why are you putting up these strawmen?

I am not strawmanning anything. My implication was that this rule has an obvious answer and that you were thinking too hard about it.

Obvious answers aren't always correct. Ironworks is a good example - the 'it' that refers to seems obvious, until you break it down, and this was the same. Donald has answered the question now, but until then, I think the question was entirely valid.
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Awaclus

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2013, 04:44:18 am »
0

To me it seemed to take a lot of thought to see why the costs should be the same.  I mean, Alice wants to pick a card costing less than $6.  She picks up a Peddler to read, and it tells her that it costs less during her buy phase.  "Oh well, not my buy phase" she'd naturally think.
So when Bob buys a Noble Brigand, Alice could go "Oh well, I didn't buy Noble Brigand so it doesn't affect me"?

Well, being that Alice is a woman, I wouldn't be too surprised.  :P
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 04:47:39 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2013, 10:42:56 am »
+1

I still think it's rather clear that the cost would be reduced.

From the rulebook on Possession:

"Possession - You are not taking a turn with the deck of the player to your left; that player is taking a turn, with you making the
decisions and gaining the cards. This is a crucial difference to keep in mind when considering card interactions – the “you” in all
cards still refers to the player being Possessed, not the player doing the Possessing
."

So the "you" on Peddler refers to the actions already played during the Possessed hand, IMO.

This is the best argument, I think.  It is still Bob's turn.  Alice is controlling his actions, but technically he is the one playing.  He is the one obtaining the Peddler, just as he is the one who bought the Border Village, though she decided and she gets both it and the benefits attached to it.
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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2013, 01:28:59 pm »
0

What about possession and farmland?
This looks like (with Alice possessing Bob with gold,gold,farmland,estate,estate in hand):
Alice plays bob's 2 gold
Alice has Bob buy a farmland.
The "You" in farmland would therefore apply to Bob,
so "When you buy this, trash a card from your hand"
means that Alice forces Bob to trash a farmland from his hand.
Alice selects a Province, which then she gains
Alice also gains the purchased farmland
Bob gains his farmland back form the trash.

It seems pretty clear if you just think of a possession turn as a normal turn where you make the choices for the person next to you, and just happen to gain anything they gain.
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AJD

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2013, 03:04:14 pm »
0

What about possession and farmland?
This looks like (with Alice possessing Bob with gold,gold,farmland,estate,estate in hand):
Alice plays bob's 2 gold
Alice has Bob buy a farmland.
The "You" in farmland would therefore apply to Bob,
so "When you buy this, trash a card from your hand"
means that Alice forces Bob to trash a farmland from his hand.
Alice selects a Province, which then she gains
Alice also gains the purchased farmland

All correct... (well, Alice has Bob play the 2 gold, but whatever).

Quote
Bob gains his farmland back form the trash.

...except that Bob doesn't gain the Farmland. It just teleports to his discard pile magically.
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Kirian

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2013, 09:30:58 pm »
+1

Quote
Bob gains his farmland back form the trash.

...except that Bob doesn't gain the Farmland. It just teleports to his discard pile magically.

To be even more nitpicky, Bob's farmland is never trashed.  It is instead set aside, then discarded at the end of the Possessed turn.
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AJD

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2013, 09:35:52 pm »
+1

Quote
Bob gains his farmland back form the trash.

...except that Bob doesn't gain the Farmland. It just teleports to his discard pile magically.

To be even more nitpicky, Bob's farmland is never trashed.  It is instead set aside, then discarded at the end of the Possessed turn.

This is not true. Bob's Farmland is trashed (and Bob could discard a Market Square for Alice to gain a Gold), and then it's set aside, and then it's not discarded, but rather it magically teleports itself to the discard pile (which arguably matters if someone trashes a Tunnel during a Possessed turn).
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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2013, 03:49:16 pm »
0

Quote
Bob gains his farmland back form the trash.

...except that Bob doesn't gain the Farmland. It just teleports to his discard pile magically.

To be even more nitpicky, Bob's farmland is never trashed.  It is instead set aside, then discarded at the end of the Possessed turn.

This is not true. Bob's Farmland is trashed (and Bob could discard a Market Square for Alice to gain a Gold), and then it's set aside, and then it's not discarded, but rather it magically teleports itself to the discard pile (which arguably matters if someone trashes a Tunnel during a Possessed turn).

Whoah.  That leads to another set of weird edge cases:
Graverobber and Rogue.  If Alice possesses Bob and plays an upgrade, trashing his duchy to gain a gold.  Can Alice then play Bob's Rogue to gain the Duchy from the trash (causing possession to "lose track."  Or is a trashed card still "trashed" but then immediately in this mystical "set-aside" stack? (never in the trash pile)

Assuming that last mechanic is correct, a trashed card is "set aside" for the remainder of the turn.  What happens if a possessed player trashes a fortress?  Does it go to back to hand (text on the fortress card) or into this "set aside" pile (text on possession).

And what about Forager?  If the trash is empty, and I play forager on a possessed turn to trash a copper, is the forager worth 1$, or 0$?


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eHalcyon

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2013, 03:54:20 pm »
0

Whoah.  That leads to another set of weird edge cases:
Graverobber and Rogue.  If Alice possesses Bob and plays an upgrade, trashing his duchy to gain a gold.  Can Alice then play Bob's Rogue to gain the Duchy from the trash (causing possession to "lose track."  Or is a trashed card still "trashed" but then immediately in this mystical "set-aside" stack? (never in the trash pile)

Graverobber/Rogue gains a card from the trash.  The Duchy is set aside, not in the trash, so you cannot gain it.

Assuming that last mechanic is correct, a trashed card is "set aside" for the remainder of the turn.  What happens if a possessed player trashes a fortress?  Does it go to back to hand (text on the fortress card) or into this "set aside" pile (text on possession).

I think this was brought up and answered before, but I can't remember.  Going purely from reading the cards...

You trash the Fortress.  Now there are basically two on-trash effects occurring:

a) Fortress tells you to put the card in your hand when you trash it.
b) Possession tells you to set the card aside when you trash it.

They both occur simultaneously so you choose which one to resolve first.  The second one does not occur because of lose-track.

And what about Forager?  If the trash is empty, and I play forager on a possessed turn to trash a copper, is the forager worth 1$, or 0$?

It's worth $0.  Not sure what the confusion is -- the Copper isn't in the trash so Forager does not count it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2013, 04:01:34 pm »
+1

Quote
Bob gains his farmland back form the trash.

...except that Bob doesn't gain the Farmland. It just teleports to his discard pile magically.

To be even more nitpicky, Bob's farmland is never trashed.  It is instead set aside, then discarded at the end of the Possessed turn.

This is not true. Bob's Farmland is trashed (and Bob could discard a Market Square for Alice to gain a Gold), and then it's set aside, and then it's not discarded, but rather it magically teleports itself to the discard pile (which arguably matters if someone trashes a Tunnel during a Possessed turn).

Whoah.  That leads to another set of weird edge cases:
Graverobber and Rogue.  If Alice possesses Bob and plays an upgrade, trashing his duchy to gain a gold.  Can Alice then play Bob's Rogue to gain the Duchy from the trash (causing possession to "lose track."  Or is a trashed card still "trashed" but then immediately in this mystical "set-aside" stack? (never in the trash pile)

Assuming that last mechanic is correct, a trashed card is "set aside" for the remainder of the turn.  What happens if a possessed player trashes a fortress?  Does it go to back to hand (text on the fortress card) or into this "set aside" pile (text on possession).

And what about Forager?  If the trash is empty, and I play forager on a possessed turn to trash a copper, is the forager worth 1$, or 0$?

I'm pretty sure about this:

Any card that is trashed visits the trash pile, but instantly leaves it and gets set aside. Just like when you top-deck a bought card with Watchtower, it does visit the discard pile for a moment.

So no, if you have someone trash a card while possessing them, you cannot gain it by having them play Graverobber or Rogue. And Forager will not see that particular treasure card in the trash pile, because it will be gone before Forager is played.

As for Fortress... you trash Fortress while possessed. At that moment 2 different triggers go off, Fortress's and Possession's. You would choose the order that they happen in, but because you're possessed your opponent chooses the order instead. If they choose Fortress first, then the Fortress ends up back in your hand, and then when Possession's trigger happens, it has lost track and cannot find it to set it aside. If you choose Possession's trigger first, then it gets set aside, and then when Fortress's trigger happens, it last lost track, and so does not return to your hand.

*Edit* Ninja'd by all the same answers.
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AJD

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2013, 04:23:39 pm »
0

And Forager will not see that particular treasure card in the trash pile, because it will be gone before Forager is played.

And even if you trash that treasure with Forager, it'll be gone from the trash pile before Forager calculates how much coin to give you.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 04:29:04 pm by AJD »
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2013, 12:05:33 pm »
+2

This is the best argument, I think.  It is still Bob's turn.  Alice is controlling his actions, but technically he is the one playing.  He is the one obtaining the Peddler, just as he is the one who bought the Border Village, though she decided and she gets both it and the benefits attached to it.

I just want to correct this for the record. Bob does not obtain Peddler. Border Village's ability triggers when it's gained. Bob bought it but never gained it. So Alice is the one gaining Peddler (not via Possession, as she did the Border Village). So she can only do so as long as Peddler's cost is reduced for all players in Bob's buy phase (which is the case).

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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2013, 06:01:35 pm »
0

Happened to be reading the FAQ for Possession, and came across this.

You only gain cards he would have; you do not gain tokens he would have (for example
from the Dominion: Seaside card Pirate Ship).

Hello, Guilds. :)
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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2013, 06:52:19 pm »
0

Happened to be reading the FAQ for Possession, and came across this.

You only gain cards he would have; you do not gain tokens he would have (for example
from the Dominion: Seaside card Pirate Ship).

Hello, Guilds. :)
Or prosperity?
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Re: Does Peddler's cost change for Alice during Bob's buy phase?
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2013, 07:30:40 pm »
0

Happened to be reading the FAQ for Possession, and came across this.

You only gain cards he would have; you do not gain tokens he would have (for example
from the Dominion: Seaside card Pirate Ship).

Hello, Guilds. :)
Or prosperity?

Or Seaside :P
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