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[yudantaiteki]

A while back on BGG, there was a discussion with newer players about the wisdom of buying copper.  Someone said something to the effect that if one player starts with 14 coppers instead of 7 they will lose 99% of the time.

This seems like an interesting question to me; having all that money in your deck at the start would let you buy more 5's but you'd have to wait a while to get them back.  How much of an advantage do you think the regular deck person would have over the 14 copper/3 estate deck?

[Awaclus]

Depends on the kingdom. On Duke and Gardens boards, the 14 copper person would probably win a lot of time, but on a Grand Market board, he wouldn't stand a chance.

[Jimmmmm]

Depends on the kingdom. On Duke and Gardens boards, the 14 copper person would probably win a lot of time, but on a Grand Market board, he wouldn't stand a chance.

Unless there was Vault.

[Awaclus]

Depends on the kingdom. On Duke and Gardens boards, the 14 copper person would probably win a lot of time, but on a Grand Market board, he wouldn't stand a chance.

Unless there was Vault.

So it depends on the kingdom even more than I initially thought it would.

[Jimmmmm]

I think it depends mostly on how important the $5s are.

[Morgrim7]

A lot of cards that cost less than $5 become a lot worse (i.e. Fool's Gold, Treasure Map) and a lot become better (Spice Merchant, Moneylender). So yeah, as always, it depends on the kingdom.

[soulnet]

I don't think vault is so big. You may get 2 Vaults if you are lucky on your first reshuffle, but then will have much more trouble connecting Vault and Golds than your oponent.

Also, the most important 5s are Cursers, and for those, it seems 7 less cards in your deck is way better than to get them one reshuffle earlier. I don't dare to pick a percentage, but I'd bet good money on 7 copper deck dominating 14 copper deck on a majority of the cases (not all of them, though).

You have edge cases like the alt-VP and maybe Counting House, but also can edge case to the other side and say that Pirate Ship is instawin against a 14 copper deck.

[^_^_^_^]

And then there is the lovely Cursers. 7copper player is hit by that much harder than the 14 copper person.

[Squidd]

Vault was referenced specifically as a way to get Grand Market in a coppery deck, not for its general utility.

[soulnet]

And then there is the lovely Cursers. 7copper player is hit by that much harder than the 14 copper person.

But hit a lot less often. Cursers are like the worst case scenario for 14 copper deck. A Mountebank that always hit is way worse than Witch. Way way worse.

[soulnet]

Vault was referenced specifically as a way to get Grand Market in a coppery deck, not for its general utility.

Even then, your GMs will be much less effective than your opponent's because they are so spread out, so it is probably not much better than Gold.

Consider this: add a good trasher like Chapel. Would you trash the first hand of 4 coppers if you get Chapel with no estate? I usually would.

[werothegreat]

Counting House would be made more reasonable.

[DrFlux]

Even if curses don't come up very often once you have them, you are going to hit your opponent with curses much less often too. So you'll get many more of them. What are you going to do with silver-copper-copper-curse-estate every(ish) turn?

If you buy a trasher early, it will take many more reshuffles to pair your deck down. Copper is horrible for engines, and not good for money either (just not as bad).  Cheap alt-vp is really the only case where this is approaching reasonable, and even in many of those cases I'd rather have the tighter deck. Duke is the main case I think of, as it gives enough points to compete with province, but has a price of 5 - which copper helps you reach. Silk-road and gardens in most cases will be too slow unless you have a gainer like ironworks. BUT if you have ironworks, I'd rather have the tighter deck, at least for silk road. Maybe for gardens the larger deck size might be enough of a benefit.

[Piemaster]

Surely the 14 Copper player would suffer mightily, purely on the strength that they would be on turn 4 before they even had a hope of seeing cards that they opened with coming around.  Only one turn later, the 7 Copper player is on his second reshuffle and is seeing his 5s cycle into his hand anyway.

[Geronimoo]

The simulator can be used to test this by modifying the "Start State".

Here's a example Big Money bot with 14 Coppers (it loses 3 out of 4 games against the 7 Copper bot):

Code: [Select]

<player name="Big Money Ultimate (14 Copper)"
 author="WanderingWinder"
 description="The optimized strategy that buys only treasure.">
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
  <start_state>
    <hand contents=""/>
    <discard contents=""/>
    <drawdeck contents="14 Copper, 3 Estate" shuffle="true"/>
  </start_state>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>


[Jimmmmm]

A lot of cards that cost less than $5 become a lot worse (i.e. Fool's Gold, Treasure Map) and a lot become better (Spice Merchant, Moneylender). So yeah, as always, it depends on the kingdom.

But the point is, you're guaranteed to open 5/5, and look likely to continue getting 5+ consistently. Something like Hunting Party/Mountebank looks good.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Vault was referenced specifically as a way to get Grand Market in a coppery deck, not for its general utility.

Even then, your GMs will be much less effective than your opponent's because they are so spread out, so it is probably not much better than Gold.

Consider this: add a good trasher like Chapel. Would you trash the first hand of 4 coppers if you get Chapel with no estate? I usually would.

Since you should be trashing four coppers anyways, with your normal 7/3 deck, then I say that yes, you clearly should.

[Powerman]

Very few strategies would work here.  Any engine (should) do worse.  Any big money (should) do worse.  Combos and the likes might be better with 14 coppers.  But CHouse would still be pretty bad... but better.

[soulnet]

Some people here seem to think the initial deck would be entirely coppers, and others (like me) are assuming that it is 3 Estates + 14 Coppers. Which is supposed to be? With 14 Coppers + 3 Estates, you are not guarranteed to start 5/5, but is likely you get a 5 before your first reshuffle.

[Morgrim7]

What about maybe 11 Coppers?

[enfynet]

14 Copper, 6 Estate...

2/3/4/5 opening

[Jimmmmm]

Some people here seem to think the initial deck would be entirely coppers, and others (like me) are assuming that it is 3 Estates + 14 Coppers. Which is supposed to be? With 14 Coppers + 3 Estates, you are not guarranteed to start 5/5, but is likely you get a 5 before your first reshuffle.

Yeah, I was assuming no Estates, not sure why. 14C/3E is probably going to get owned in just about every kingdom.