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Author Topic: Iso or Goko?  (Read 47442 times)

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shMerker

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2013, 07:40:32 pm »
0

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 07:43:13 pm by shMerker »
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cluckyb

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2013, 07:49:34 pm »
+1

My only real qualm about Goko is that it is an online service. There is no guarantee they'll still be up and running six months from now, especially when you consider the struggles they have had so far. And if that happens, the $50 is then lost. Sure something can happen to all the cardboard I buy and then it will be lost, but if something does it'll have been my fault. Are there any plans to release a desktop client with support for private servers so that even if Goko shuts down people will be able to continue to play on it?
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enfynet

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2013, 10:48:45 pm »
0

So, I had this great idea to start charging my friends $1 each time they wanted to use a new kingdom card in the set of ten. I give them the first game for free and start charging from there. It didn't take very long before they decided to just buy a copy for themselves.

This post was completely hypothetical.

I am personally torn as to whether I want to pay for Goko cards or not. I prefer playing real cards with real people. At the same time, I prefer being home alone where it's quiet. (And Goko still freezes on me a LOT more than I'm comfortable with, so it's just Base games for now.)
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pinkymadigan

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Re: Education
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2013, 08:59:25 am »
0

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

It's more than a simple no, it's advice. Check them both out, they are both free. How difficult is it to make a simple decision like this for yourself?

OMG! I can't decide whether I want Coke or Sprite someone convince me!
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greatexpectations

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2013, 10:48:50 am »
+2

this has to be in the top 5 of best f.DS thread derails.
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theory

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2013, 10:50:12 am »
0

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Kirian

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2013, 10:54:42 am »
0

As a math educator, I'm a bit skeptical of the pedestal on which calculus is placed in secondary education.  Proability and statistics is considerably more practical and useful, as is linear algebra.  Calculus is great, don't get me wrong.  Absolutely vital if you are going to be further studying physical science or engineering.  But everyone should be familiar with a decent amount of probability and statistics.

Absolutely agreed.  Basic stats and probability are incredibly useful to the general populace, and not taught to the depth they should be.

As for further discussion on whether there is more to know about math beyond the four arithmetic operations, I'll have to get back to you.  I'm currently attending at a math conference at UC Berkeley and need to get going or else I'll miss the first talk.  I'll ask them about the question.  Although as most of us work on rings, I'm not convinced they'll consider even the fourth operation of division to be of much use  :P

Yeah, yeah, all right, I've oversimplified. :P
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pinkymadigan

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2013, 10:56:01 am »
0

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

My reply ended up in the other topic.

Also, I play Goko, but I don't see how it's relevant - I only play in the private beta and only against bots.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2013, 11:08:57 am »
0

My only real qualm about Goko is that it is an online service. There is no guarantee they'll still be up and running six months from now, especially when you consider the struggles they have had so far. And if that happens, the $50 is then lost. Sure something can happen to all the cardboard I buy and then it will be lost, but if something does it'll have been my fault. Are there any plans to release a desktop client with support for private servers so that even if Goko shuts down people will be able to continue to play on it?

Then you got six months of entertainment for $50?
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Watno

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2013, 11:14:52 am »
0

My only real qualm about Goko is that it is an online service. There is no guarantee they'll still be up and running six months from now, especially when you consider the struggles they have had so far. And if that happens, the $50 is then lost. Sure something can happen to all the cardboard I buy and then it will be lost, but if something does it'll have been my fault. Are there any plans to release a desktop client with support for private servers so that even if Goko shuts down people will be able to continue to play on it?

I was planning to buy the cards on goko soon, but this is what me decide against it for now. And Goko going down in the next couple of months isn't what i would call far-fetched. They haven't updated in like a month, representatives have left the company, and I don't think their business is going well.
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Ozle

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2013, 11:27:52 am »
+4

Haha, are we STILL having this discussion?!

Goko charges, if you don't want to pay for an online version of Dominion, nobody will force you to play it.
Iso is still up, when it goes down you have a choice to make.

Weigh up whether continuing to play Dominion online is worth the money and stump up, or don't.

There's no question of 'rights' or legality here at all, Goko CAN charge you for playing on Goko, and they ARE charging you. If you don't like it, don't play it.

This conversation is about as relevant as the time I wrote that Manatee joke for Family Guy...

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theory

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2013, 11:43:26 am »
+1

My reply ended up in the other topic.

Oops, brought it back.
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Piemaster

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2013, 12:29:50 pm »
+3

I've tried to give Goko a fair shake, but I keep finding myself going back to Iso.  The problem is, once you've got over the fancy graphics and official artwork, I haven't found much I really prefer about Goko.  The only thing is Dark Ages really.  On Iso I can get a game 24 hours a day, usually within 30 seconds, with all the sets except 1.  On Goko, unless I'm prepared to stump up the cash (which maybe I will one day, but not yet) I have to either play with base only (which is super-boring once you're used to more) or sit there with baited breath waiting for a game to open with someone who has more sets and then pray I manage to click the seat before somebody else does.  The interface is fine on Goko, but it is on Iso too.  Maybe when Guilds comes out on Goko, that will be the incentive I need to get into it and, maybe I guess, spend money on it.  But right now I'm really not feeling it.
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Jacob marley

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2013, 03:07:53 pm »
0

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

im aware of the business model. i know they need to make money. i know they don't have to give it to me for free just because ive bought the actual cards. but ive spent over $200 on the game and i dont want to pay more to play online. it might be that a lot of people agree with me, and if that's the case, then it may not have been a good idea to put money into creating a paid version of online dominion. time will tell.

Again, then play with people who've already bought all the expansions.

Unfortunately, this answer, while it is valid (and is the approach I use), is not a total solution.  Speaking from experience, it is often difficult for me to find games to join, especially on the pro leaderboard, and when I do, there is no way of telling what cards will be available.  I often wait a long time only to end up in a game of base, in which case I could have just started my own game and saved myself the wait.

Having said that, I'm not against buying Goko cards, I just don't have the budget for it.  In fact, I'm rather tired of people complaining.  RGG didn't let you have Iso for free all this time, and they, and Goko, have every right to monitize the on-line version seperately from the physical game. 

I also don't find the VHS/blu-ray analogy helpful.  Instead I think of Axis and Allies.  Even though I had the physical game, I still had to buy the computer game version.  I feel that the fact that a free online version has been available skews the debate.
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ipofanes

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2013, 04:12:09 pm »
0

I don't think anyone is disputing the right to sell electronic specimen of playing cards.

But I rather play Dominion within the family (which I do a lot) and would pay for a different experience online, like Innovation, which I don't have a physical copy of.

Also, boardgaming-online.com is a site I donate once in a while to, for their excellent implementation of Through the Ages.
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serakfalcon

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2013, 12:54:39 am »
0

Quote
Quote
I don't see how.  Donald sold the rights to Dominion to RGG.  They got the rights to sell it first.  They contracted with Goko and allowed Goko to have second sale rights.
I think you misunderstand, its the idea that, if I bought a product, I have the right to use it or dispose of it any way I please. This gets a little complicated with digital copies since it doesn't cost anything to duplicate them, but it costs time and energy to make the first one. This is the, "I already bought all the sets IRL why do I have to buy them all over again online?" argument.

You certainly have the right to use, sell, or give away your physical copy of the game.  Digital products don't work like that.  And... I mean, seriously, this sounds like a Chewbacca defense here.

I'm not sure what I think. I'm just saying, that is a viewpoint that has a certain amount of merit and that other people are clearly expressing, I was summing it up. 

Sure, there is extra work involved in creating an online version, I agree that that should be compensated. However, there is a huge problem with pricing based off of the supplier's thinking, and basing the price off of the customers thinking, basically, eventually, the customers thinking will win. I don't know why it takes companies so long to learn this. Sure, they might theoretically be losing physical sales with an online verson, though I severely doubt it, but from the eyes of a consumer, If I'm paying for an online version, there's no re-sell value and there's no guarantee that the site will still be up in 5-6 years, whereas I'll still have my box set no matter what. So for sure online versions need to be cheaper than the box sets. And, how cheaper depends on the customer, and how much of a price cut the company is willing to settle for.
I own a kindle but I refuse to pay more than $10 for an e-book. for $10 I could get a used copy of most books, so I'd rather not buy. But I'm on the cheap end of the spectrum. The only thing about supply and demand is, there is more people like me than there is people willing to pay $50 for an e-book, and since running a server is not that expensive over all, and the development is mostly fixed cost, on the internet, quantity matters a lot...
Either way, I suspect that a very large number of companies, especially in older industries, are not really thinking about how consumers see digital copies, this makes all the analogies hard to compare since the prices are all over the map.

Minecraft is actually a great example of someone getting the internet right: By making it reasonably priced, even cheap for early adopters, they got a massive amount of purchases (its now in the top 10 all time best sellers), also, they made it accessible to normal users by keeping it simple, while allowing power users to do their thing, and, by adding an online verification step and updating often, they make it difficult to pirate. All that to say, things grow faster and are better when IP is protected, you keep your power users happy (they are your biggest advocates) but keep it accessible so you can have a bigger consumer base. I'm not convinced Goko has done that as of yet.
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Donald X.

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2013, 02:08:41 am »
0

So for sure online versions need to be cheaper than the box sets. And, how cheaper depends on the customer, and how much of a price cut the company is willing to settle for.
Let's just repeat this for the one person reading this who doesn't know this. Magic: The Gathering costs exactly as much for online packs as for real packs. They felt like they had to do that to not lose money on the online version, and so that's what they did. When this was announced, there were sure people who said "lol no-one will pay that much for imaginary cards, this is never getting off the ground." It has been many years and Wizards has been raking in cash from online Magic.

Also, again for the one person reading this who doesn't know this, companies these days do not sell you software, they sell you a license to use the software. This dodges the issue of you being able to make a copy of this thing you bought. Contract law is really messed up, but that's how things work these days, that is what really goes down.
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ipofanes

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2013, 03:24:15 am »
0

So for sure online versions need to be cheaper than the box sets. And, how cheaper depends on the customer, and how much of a price cut the company is willing to settle for.
Let's just repeat this for the one person reading this who doesn't know this. Magic: The Gathering costs exactly as much for online packs as for real packs. They felt like they had to do that to not lose money on the online version, and so that's what they did. When this was announced, there were sure people who said "lol no-one will pay that much for imaginary cards, this is never getting off the ground." It has been many years and Wizards has been raking in cash from online Magic.
I would say by keeping the online and physical version in the hands of the same company, whose product line had proven to be maintained, survived the Pokémon competition, to have withstood the lure of power creep, they were in a different position to address the concerns issued by Watno and serakfalcon. Dominion the card game is excellent as a product and will, like, say, Carcassonne, be around for many years, but an online version by Goko would have to stand the test of time. (OTOH, my unsleeved cards might have a shorter life expectancy than an online version.)

Also, I have never played M:tG online but I had found that deck construction grew more and more unwieldy the more physical cards I possessed, and I would imagine that an online version takes care of that brilliantly. Isotropic always reminds me to topdeck my Treasury, which is nice, but nowhere near the added convenience I'd expect to have with online deck construction.
 
   
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serakfalcon

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2013, 04:15:03 am »
0

Quote
Let's just repeat this for the one person reading this who doesn't know this. Magic: The Gathering costs exactly as much for online packs as for real packs. They felt like they had to do that to not lose money on the online version, and so that's what they did. When this was announced, there were sure people who said "lol no-one will pay that much for imaginary cards, this is never getting off the ground." It has been many years and Wizards has been raking in cash from online Magic.

With a player base as wide and fanatic about the game as Magic has, its not hard to drum up enough people to pay that money. The fact is, they probably would be making even more money if they had a lower price and made more sales. Its hard because you have to test those things out and know your market fairly well. But, with Magic, everyone is basically encouraged to buy and own their own sets. So basically, someone who is buying the game online may choose to no longer play the game in person in favour of the online version. (in fact, Magic is forcing that choice by making the online version so expensive, were it cheaper people would probably do a bit of both, as most people tend to get digital copies of what they already own, rather than exclusively get one or the other). With Dominion, you only need one full set for an entire gaming group, say 4-5 people. However, all of them will need to pay to play online. So your potential online player base is larger.
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Donald X.

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2013, 04:53:39 am »
0

With Dominion, you only need one full set for an entire gaming group, say 4-5 people. However, all of them will need to pay to play online.
No. One player hosts the online game and that player's cards are used. If you and your four friends like to play Dominion together online, one of you can buy the cards and host the game and all of you can play with everything, without the other four buying anything.
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serakfalcon

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2013, 06:13:23 am »
0

Quote
No. One player hosts the online game and that player's cards are used. If you and your four friends like to play Dominion together online, one of you can buy the cards and host the game and all of you can play with everything, without the other four buying anything.

That's a nice thought, but I'm fairly certain I couldn't convince my friends to do that. We'd rather be doing something together, then on computer screens just playing the game. Our interaction is more important, the game is just a means to do that. If I'm playing online its for the game only, because I happen to have some free time. As I've said, its probably worth a market survey to look at this with concrete statistics instead of just "well, I look at it this way and you look at it that way"

As another counterpoint, I've introduced way more people to Dominion than are in the regular group that I play with, and I continue to do so. So say, probably  ~20 people have been introduced to it. Some have gone out and bought it, most haven't. Some of those might be interested in playing the online version, especially if they've moved and don't have a regular gaming group anymore.
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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2013, 07:48:11 am »
+1

By the way, I would definitely buy all the sets on Goko right now if they came with the smell of new cards. I don't remember what this was related to, but I'm sure it was related to something as it came into my mind when I was reading some post.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 07:50:37 am by Awaclus »
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shMerker

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Re: Education
« Reply #97 on: February 15, 2013, 08:52:39 pm »
0

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

It's more than a simple no, it's advice. Check them both out, they are both free. How difficult is it to make a simple decision like this for yourself?

OMG! I can't decide whether I want Coke or Sprite someone convince me!

How difficult is it to just say "well if you switch then you'll get X, Y, or Z"? Apparently really hard I guess. When I tried using Goko my browser kind of exploded on me. Do I have a reason to invest more time in figuring this out? I just figured I could ask people who already know the answer. Keep mocking me though. It's probably the best use of your time.

I'm just glad we're not doing the usual goko discussion.
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Polk5440

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #98 on: February 15, 2013, 09:39:02 pm »
0

This week it's been both Iso and (free) Goko....

And Goko is getting dangerously close to crossing the "worth the money" threshold for me. Games don't freeze so often (due to a recent update building in some kind of invisible auto-reconnect feature??); animations, memory usage, and UI have improved. It looks nice (authentic card art is a big plus, though the avatars are still a minus). I like the deck builder tool a lot, being able to play against (pretty good) bots is a nice value-add, and the pace of play does not bother me at all.

I enjoy the Dark Ages cards. However, the difference in cards available seems like an artificial attempt to make Iso sticktly worse on one important dimension, which irks me, but shutting it down completely would be an admission that Goko can't compete at all, so the fact that Iso is still up is a plus for Goko, too.

I don't particularly care for adventures that much. Logs still are too hard to read and aren't tracked by CouncilRoom, and when games do freeze, I cannot refresh and reconnect like I can on Iso. This has become the biggest negative for me and the remaining reason why I have not given up Iso, yet. It's super frustrating to have to quit a game (that I am winning). Maybe the reason I have more disconnect/freezing issues than most people is because of the speed/quality of my internet connection, but hey, Iso and other online games work great, and I am not willing to pay a lot more a month for better internet connection just to play Dominion.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 09:41:36 pm by Polk5440 »
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dghunter79

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #99 on: February 15, 2013, 09:46:49 pm »
+2

I play on Goko without paying.  I just like Dark Ages too much to go back.  Ambassadoring Rats?  Ha ha, what a crazy ambassador, what's that guy thinking?

There's a lot that's better about isotropic.  Isotropic has a simpler interface, a more accessible ranking system, and more, and better, players.  It turned out to be a pretty negligible difference though, to me.  Goko is still Dominon at the click of a button, except it has all the cards.

Plus Goko lets you pretend you're a knight!  I can't do that unless someone shows me a picture of a knight and tells me that it's a picture of me.
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