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Author Topic: Iso or Goko?  (Read 47435 times)

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pinkymadigan

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2013, 11:28:17 am »
+1

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But why does the BluRay have to be so expensive compared with VHS? It takes less resources to manufacture the BluRay: no moving parts etc.

Are you serious?

For starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

That's the price that people as a whole have deemed okay to pay. If you want them cheaper, start a large global movement where everyone stops buying BluRays until they are the price you want them at.

The downside is, if it is too cheap then they will just stop making them.
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DrFlux

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2013, 11:30:17 am »
+1

I play on both. I'm currently debating whether to pay the $45 for all sets.

For anyone who tried the beta and gave up, Goko is way better than it used to be. It doesn't crash, and it is quite fast. It has a log. Really I was quite pleased when I tried again.

The only huge issue for me is the lack of auto-matching, preferably by rank. It often takes too long to find a game, and I think its because of this lack of auto match. A related issue is just the player base and current ranking: I am currently level 45 and really appreciate the high level of play, thoughtful analysis, and courtesy among many of the better (35+) isotropic players. I don't have that yet in Goko, and that does affect my desire to play there regularly.




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Kuildeous

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2013, 11:36:44 am »
+3

Not everything in life is free
Iso is.

Just to point out, Iso is not free. It's free for one of us to log into and play a game, but that's because Doug paid that price for us all. He put in the time to program Isotropic. As we know, programmers are not cheap. Doug hosted the server. If you were to quantify everything Doug did, you would see a huge chunk of money donated to us for this hobby.

Isotropic was never free. Doug was just willing to pay the cost for us. And if I recall, he had to be metaphorically held down and forced to take money from people who wanted to donate to him to offset those costs.
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ipofanes

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2013, 11:41:23 am »
0

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But why does the BluRay have to be so expensive compared with VHS? It takes less resources to manufacture the BluRay: no moving parts etc.

Are you serious?

For starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Good point! Supply and demand only works where there is no competition among producers. In a competitive market, selling above production price wouldn't work for long.

Quote
That's the price that people as a whole have deemed okay to pay. If you want them cheaper, start a large global movement where everyone stops buying BluRays until they are the price you want them at.

The downside is, if it is too cheap then they will just stop making them.

I am already busy stopping buying Ishtar BluRays, so I am uncertain if I'd have time for that.
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Ozle

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2013, 11:46:00 am »
+4

Wait, so I can't just download Goko from Bittorrent like I do all my movies and comics??!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2013, 11:47:41 am »
+1

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But why does the BluRay have to be so expensive compared with VHS? It takes less resources to manufacture the BluRay: no moving parts etc.

BluRay discs cost what they cost because people are willing to spend that much for them. If everyone decided today that they are unwilling to buy any BluRay movies unless they cost $5 or less, then before too long all BluRay movies would cost $5 or less.

The other answer is that when you buy a BluRay disc, your money goes to a lot more than just the manufacturing of that BluRay disc. You are also paying license for the right to watch the movie in HD, etc.
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pinkymadigan

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2013, 11:55:48 am »
0

Good point! Supply and demand only works where there is no competition among producers. In a competitive market, selling above production price wouldn't work for long.

Can't tell if you are messing around or what here.

Supply and demand works with competitive markets, but it also works in an absence of direct competitors where a good is not required.

For instance, if Goko put their prices at $20 an expansion, a few people with lots of extra spending money would bite, but the majority would not. That creates a low demand situation, and the result is that not enough people would buy the expansions to cover Goko's operating costs, so they would lower their prices. The lower prices match consumer's expectations much more than previously, and the demand for an electronic Dominion implementation matches the price point enough to increase the amount of people willing to buy to a point where Goko can sustain itself.

Just because no one else has the license doesn't mean we are all forced to buy at a $20/expansion price point though. That's silly (or maybe it's some odd extension of communism where because Goko needs money we are forced to buy their service to help the economy or something).

If you were just messing around, man, good job, because you confused the pi55 outta me.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 11:57:58 am by pinkymadigan »
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ipofanes

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2013, 12:08:18 pm »
0

Good point! Supply and demand only works where there is no competition among producers. In a competitive market, selling above production price wouldn't work for long.

Can't tell if you are messing around or what here.


I wasn't referring to Goko but to the example you brought up. For Gone With the Wind BluRays, competitive markets only exist in countries low on anti-infringement enforcement.

Quote
Just because no one else has the license doesn't mean we are all forced to buy at a $20/expansion price point though.

Of course. "Force" would mean "artificially increase demand".

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pinkymadigan

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2013, 12:17:19 pm »
0

Good point! Supply and demand only works where there is no competition among producers. In a competitive market, selling above production price wouldn't work for long.

Can't tell if you are messing around or what here.


I wasn't referring to Goko but to the example you brought up. For Gone With the Wind BluRays, competitive markets only exist in countries low on anti-infringement enforcement.

Quote
Just because no one else has the license doesn't mean we are all forced to buy at a $20/expansion price point though.

Of course. "Force" would mean "artificially increase demand".

No, it's still a competitive market (and it's not my example).

Take the example to extremes:
You have the option of the classic: Gone With The Wind on BluRay for $1,000.00 or you have like goods: Casablanca on BluRay for $10.00.

I guarantee that the price drops on Gone with the Wind so quickly to a reasonable market price. Even if like goods were not available and price collusion happens, it's a luxury good, and not buying BluRays (most people would not buy $1000.00 BluRays) will force the price to become an acceptable price point or force a new entrepreneurship to occur, either resulting in a new format, or new companies producing like goods for cheaper, both which result in the same thing; a good, comparable to the previous, available at a price point the market deems acceptable.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2013, 12:22:26 pm »
+3

with all of the talk of pricing and supply/demand, i think it is worth mentioning that goko has already dropped their prices from their starting price point. so to some extent, the complaints about prices, boycotts, and/or low traffic volume to their site definitely has and will likely continue to contribute to their pricing decisions.
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pinkymadigan

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2013, 12:25:42 pm »
0

with all of the talk of pricing and supply/demand, i think it is worth mentioning that goko has already dropped their prices from their starting price point. so to some extent, the complaints about prices, boycotts, and/or low traffic volume to their site definitely has and will likely continue to contribute to their pricing decisions.

Exactly. Conversely, if the site had been a massive success day one, we would still probably be paying those prices, unless they saw a drop in revenue and wanted to grow their consumer base.

EDIT: Is this not a concept that is taught in middle school anymore? I run into this a lot these days.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 12:27:50 pm by pinkymadigan »
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ipofanes

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2013, 12:35:05 pm »
+1

(and it's not my example).

Oops, sorry. That's what you get by not scrolling up.
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pinkymadigan

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2013, 12:40:13 pm »
0

(and it's not my example).

Oops, sorry. That's what you get by not scrolling up.

No worries.
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ipofanes

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2013, 12:57:22 pm »
0

with all of the talk of pricing and supply/demand, i think it is worth mentioning that goko has already dropped their prices from their starting price point. so to some extent, the complaints about prices, boycotts, and/or low traffic volume to their site definitely has and will likely continue to contribute to their pricing decisions.

Exactly. Conversely, if the site had been a massive success day one, we would still probably be paying those prices, unless they saw a drop in revenue and wanted to grow their consumer base.


There is also the network effect: No one uses Goko if no one uses it. That's what Minecraft did right: More than competitive prices for early adopters.
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popsofctown

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2013, 02:28:11 pm »
0

If you pay the company that liscensed a design your more or less paying the designer.  That's where the money trickles up to..

I don't claim to know the particulars of their agreement, but I sincerely doubt that it's any difference to Donald (in an immediate financial way) whether Goko fails or thrives. That deal was probably a straight up deal to use the Dominion IP for a one time payment of X to RGG (though I'm sure Donald would prefer his brand thrives in all formats).

Regardless, you live in a society with laws, it's not up to you to decide which laws have weight and which ones fall into some 'good spirit' category. If you want to break the law, go ahead and do what you like. Certain laws are incredibly difficult to enforce and not worth the effort or money, so you can get away with a lot of things that are definitely against the law (like carrying an ice cream cone in you pocket in Kentucky).

But don't kid yourself into thinking you've made a moral decision by paying for X and doing Y.

I don't intend to break any law.  I'm going to abstain from funding Goko and stick with games that have payment system I perceive as fair.  Hopefully, ideally, there are enough other people that think in a similar manner as I do, and lawmaking won't really matter, companies will start charging for intellectual property exactly one time.  That's part of how capitalism works. 

EDIT: Not that following the law would give any guarantee that I'm not being an asshole.  I could legally photoshop a knockoff dominion, heck, with better art, and I would still be a jerk for letting neither Donald nor RGG get any money from it.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 02:36:53 pm by popsofctown »
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Powerman

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2013, 02:33:20 pm »
0

And, pray tell, how are you going to keep track of who's bought what set?  The only ones with codes are Dark Ages and the Base Cards.  Is Goko supposed to implement an honor system where people get free digital cards just because they say they've bought all the physical expansions?

Don't all sold products come with some form of a unique UPC code?
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2013, 02:34:39 pm »
0

And, pray tell, how are you going to keep track of who's bought what set?  The only ones with codes are Dark Ages and the Base Cards.  Is Goko supposed to implement an honor system where people get free digital cards just because they say they've bought all the physical expansions?

Don't all sold products come with some form of a unique UPC code?

UPCs aren't unique; every copy of Intrigue (in the Unites States) has the same UPC on it.
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shMerker

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2013, 02:42:13 pm »
0

People, this is the same discussion as that other one and that other one. Someone try to convince me to switch to Goko. I'm still playing Iso largely because it's comfortable.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2013, 02:43:26 pm »
0

To get back to why Blu Rays cost what they cost, it just isn't the cost to make a Blu Ray, but Sony and its partners own the license on Blu Rays. So, everytime someone makes a Blu Ray, Sony charges a fee for allowing them to use that technology.
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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2013, 02:44:24 pm »
0

People, this is the same discussion as that other one and that other one. Someone try to convince me to switch to Goko. I'm still playing Iso largely because it's comfortable.

Sure. iso will go down at some point. Maybe in the next couple of months once Goko claims that it is out of beta. Then, you either don't play online or switch to Goko.
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shMerker

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2013, 02:59:13 pm »
0

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.
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pinkymadigan

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2013, 04:33:25 pm »
+1

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.
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Donald X.

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2013, 06:22:33 pm »
+2

Assuming this is the same product as IRL Dominion, it feels like double paying for the 5 expansions I own.  When I buy Madden for XBox, it comes with a code to play on XBox Live.  Could they charge less for the game and charge extra for the Live pass?  Sure, but they don't.  When I buy BlueRays, they all come with a "digital copy" to watch on iTunes. 
It's easy to photocopy a page, to take an .mp3 and convert it to a .wav, and so on. But work goes into an online Dominion implementation. It's not a photocopy.
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Donald X.

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2013, 06:26:34 pm »
+1

There's illegal things that are in good spirit.  If you buy all the cards on Goko, then pay a friend 50$ to photocopy all his Dominion cards for you to play with, that is in good spirit because you paid for #1, but that is actually illegal.
For sure the online version would have to cost the same as the cardboard version if it was costing us cardboard sales. This is in fact the logic used by Wizards to make their online version of Magic cost exactly the same as their cardboard version.

You should have to pay for #1.  But you shouldn't have to pay for #1 twice. 
No-one is paying for anything twice. I don't even agree with the first part, which is to say, surely there is a better system than the current one for letting people make stuff up for a living.

The laws don't stand in the favor of the way I think things should work, but capitalism has this really neat feature where you can vote with your dollar, so that's what I'm doing. 
Also you are posting about it on the internet. But who gets paid for this free entertainment? I ask you.
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popsofctown

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Re: Iso or Goko?
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2013, 06:41:59 pm »
0

Ok, the photocopying example was not a good idea, because the prices aren't the same.

If you bought the game, then paid 50$ for a game that was the same, but with half the arts redone, and the others original, that would be illegal, but would be an example of something that I don't think has wronged the creators
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