Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Elyv]

This card would have supplemental rule clarification (like other cards sometimes do), which would explain that piles do not have to have equal number of cards, there must be at least one card in the pile (or it isn't pile)

I'm pretty sure Fact or Fiction lets you split 5-0, not that I have any idea why anyone would want to.
Also, I think Fool's Choice will usually be worse than Envoy now, not that that's necessarily a bad thing.

[ChaosRed]

Yeah I think you are right about Fact or Fiction. In Magic sometimes cards in the Graveyard are useful and are often activated from the grave, so separating into a pile of 5 and 0 might be useful.

It's not a strong card, although I forgot Fact or Fiction draws 5 (in MLB I changed it to 4). That might be a useful change to give it more zing, since I took the trashing away.

[Titandrake]

Fool's Choice seems a bit weak when you compare it to Smithy. But then again, Smithy is pretty good. I think five cards is the right number, because then you could always take at least three cards, albeit not the good ones, which I think balances out? 4 cards seems fine though.

It's worth noting that splitting the cards only really matters if you still have actions left. Otherwise, it's just "split the money you draw evenly into two piles".

[ChaosRed]

Yeah the cards either needs actions on the stack, or it needs to draw treasure on your terminating play. Your opponent knows this of course and separates the piles accordingly. I'll switch it to 5, it makes for a more compelling split.

[ChaosRed]

Updated Fool's Choice, for 5 cards instead of 4 (to match the Magic card which it pays homage to)...

Then some proper verbiage for Land Grad as my original wording was a complete cluster:

EDIT - I actually gave Land Grab just a tad more juice, making its enchantment a temporary one-time Monument if you buy a land card.

[ChaosRed]

Not happy with Land Grab, possible variants could be:

+1VP
Gain a Victory card worth 5 or less. If you don't buy or gain a Victory card this turn, trash this card. At the start of your next turn: +1 VP.

Does this make sense? It gives you a VP, and a Victory card worth 5. If you buy a Victory card in the turn you play it, you get an additional +1VP next turn. It becomes a potential +5VP play, but you must buy a Victory card to get to it. Is this simpler? Is it more balanced or have I pushed its capabilities too far? I think it is simpler and makes a great late-game card, or makes a Gardens deck shine.

Here's another variant:

When you play Land Grab, gain a Victory card worth 5 or less. Set this and the Victory card you gain aside, return them to your deck
at the end of the game.

Seems pretty cool to me, just like this, but now I wonder what a card like that would be worth. It's a nerfed Feast, but you gain VP that never clogs your hand, which of course, is pretty dynamite. Island is only worth 2, but it doesn't acquire anything, but is worth 2VP.

Last variant:

1VP (Big VP)

You may reveal Victory card from your hand, if you do, discard it, gain a copy of Land Grab. If you do, gain +1VP.

I'd probably rename the card if I took the last variant. Perhaps "Title Deed" or "County" or "Borough". The math on this gets weird, but its essentially a 3VP play, if you reveal a land card and are able to gain the card.

...the game stops when the supply pile ends, but the moment you buy a second one, is the moment you earned 3VP on the card played...but the acquired card earns just 1VP until it can be played.

[Deadlock39]

Duration cards shouldn't need to say "This turn"

Tactician is worded like this:
Discard your hand. If you discarded any cards this way, then at the start of your next turn, +5 Cards; +1 Buy; and +1 Action.

Also, from Feast, the wording is "costing up to $5"

As a personal opinion, I don't like the cleanup phase wording.  I don't think it is necessary as long as the "trash this" instruction is sequentially after the +$2.

I believe Land Grab could be worded as:
Gain a Victory card costing up to $5.
If you buy a Victory card this turn, then at the start of your next turn, +$2; +1VP.
At the start of your next turn trash this card.

(Well, now you are planning on changing this completely, but I am going to go ahead and post anyway.)

[ChaosRed]

(Well, now you are planning on changing this completely, but I am going to go ahead and post anyway.)

It is superb feedback. I am struggling with the wording clearly, which is why I posted variants, to see if a newer approach could make the card a little cleaner or simpler. I really post these things to learn proper syntax and come to understand card balance and value, the expansion itself is a nice artifact of the discussion but not the primary asset of this thread for me. So thank you and if the card remains in the same vein, I'll alter the wording again to make it cleaner and more compatible with other duration cards.

[ChaosRed]

No comments on the Land Grab derivative, so I kept the original abilities and then just reworded it to match Deadlock's comments. Comments welcome on the wording, costing and general abilities of the card. I moved Fool's Choice to beta stage (play testing) and put a new 4-point card out there for peer review. The new card (Township), is just a village-derivative, as I needed 4-points that weren't terminal.

So here are the two cards currently up for review from you guys. My sincere thanks again, for all feedback in advance.

[WanderingWinder]

Township: first off, you want to put the +card before the +action, just for consistency. Also, it's wildly too powerful. It's a menagerie that hits on having a victory card in your hand instead of needing a totally unique hand. This is just much much easier thing to make hit. switch it to just 1 extra card, and it might be balanced.

[Elyv]

I like the idea of Township but it's not a village at all, since it can't net you actions. Functionally, it reminds me of menagerie/wishing well more than any other card. Also as WW said, it's probably a little too good, especially in the early game.

[ChaosRed]

Township: first off, you want to put the +card before the +action, just for consistency. Also, it's wildly too powerful. It's a menagerie that hits on having a victory card in your hand instead of needing a totally unique hand. This is just much much easier thing to make hit. switch it to just 1 extra card, and it might be balanced.

Cheers. Modified...to take the last two comments into consideration:

[rinkworks]

Suggestion:  "You may discard a Victory card.  If you do, +1 Card."

Anyway, that version is, I think, a pretty good and balanced village-with-a-bonus.  Not a million miles removed from Farming Village -- both are villages that let you skip over green cards.  Township is more likely to hit (and when it does, it's on this hand instead of possibly the next one), but Farming Village compensates by potentially being able to cycle through more than one.

[ChaosRed]

Thanks rink, updated the text accordingly:

[WanderingWinder]

Doesn't need or want the "in your hand" wording - it would be "from" your hand, but the mere fact that you're discarding already implies that it's from your hand.

[ChaosRed]

Cheers, yeah, got sloppy with rink's revision, apologies...

[ChaosRed]

Pushed Land Grab and Township to the beta thread...two more 4$ cards to unveil tomorrow, then I can move on to the 5$ batch.

[ChaosRed]

Two more cards for review...

I am worried about the balance of Gypsy, but it seems like a Moat/Monument hybrid, and it takes two turns to invoke the +1VP...so I think it is costed fine...I thought it compared relatively well with the other 4 point Duration cards.

Auction seems like a weaker Trading Post...you have to trash something worse 2 or less and you only get to trash one card. It isn't terminal, so a pretty compelling card I think.

[rinkworks]

I think Gypsy's power level is probably fine.  I've done quite a bit of testing with terminal duration cards that have weak first-turn effects, and the fact is that burning an action on them hurts a lot more than you'd think.  Among the official cards, Tactician and Wharf don't hurt so much because the next-turn effects are very worth waiting for and making sacrifices to earn.  Merchant Ship, however, doesn't seem especially strong.  And all the cheaper duration cards are non-terminals (Haven, Lighthouse, Fishing Village, Caravan).   So it was kind of a surprise to me when I tried making some $3- and $4-cost terminal duration cards and was fairly surprised how much stronger or cheaper I had to make them for them to turn out right.

I suspect Gypsy is probably correct at $4.  It's definitely not a $5 card, and I don't think you want it to be as available as $3 would make it.  But it may not turn out to be an especially strong $4.

On another note, making the +VP the next-turn effect of a duration card is a really great way to have a vanilla +VP card that probably won't lead to a degenerate game state, since you can only play them every other turn at most.

Auction is okay, I guess.  I don't see the $2 or less requirement as particularly necessary, though, since how often would you want to trash a $3+ card for a Silver?  Certainly there are plenty of examples -- dead Sea Hags, obsolete Barons, etc -- but these aren't present every game, and there is one, it's probably just one.

Another thing to watch out for is that, although trashing two cards is more powerful than one, it's significant that Trading Post requires you to trash two, rendering it unplayable even in some instances when you have a Curse in hand.  I'm sure Trading Post is still more powerful on balance, but it's important to keep in mind that Auction is not strictly inferior at trashing.

I can't previsualize the effect of the +1 Action, so I guess that's something to watch in testing.

[ChaosRed]

Another thing to watch out for is that, although trashing two cards is more powerful than one, it's significant that Trading Post requires you to trash two, rendering it unplayable even in some instances when you have a Curse in hand.  I'm sure Trading Post is still more powerful on balance, but it's important to keep in mind that Auction is not strictly inferior at trashing.

Thanks rink, it's true what you say, this was discussed in a thread about Trading Post, when the OP asked "why does it say 'if you do' on Trading Post". There are rare instances Trading Post will let you trash one, but its hard to get to.

I lament that Auction is really too much like Trading Post, at times stronger and at times weaker and I may evaluate the card again based on that.

Your points on Duration cards were really interesting, I think Gypsy is pretty slow, but can't bring myself to knock it down to 3 and like you, don't think its worth 5. Thanks for the feedback there.

[ChaosRed]

Pushed Gypsy and Auction (with the revision rink suggested to the beta page.

Bring back two cards, I still struggle to balance or simplify. For Land Grab, it was too clunky, I simplified it. For Bribery, I also simplified, but I also increased the power, should it be costed at 5? It seems strong, so happy to up the cost if you feel it is warranted. I  like what it does though, a weird Mine/Menagerie hybrid.

[Newcomer]

To me, Bribery works like Remodel, except it only works on Treasures. Yes, it's like Mine, but unlike Mine it can't turn Copper into Silver, etc., so the $2 thing makes me think more like Remodel. But because you're passing to your opponent instead of trashing, I'd be aiming to pass Coppers and pick up $2 cantrips if they're available, and I'd be a little more reluctant to go Gold->Province (or Platinum->Colony) unless I'm about to end the game. So with the Coppers it's basically an Attack/trasher hybrid, if there's anything suitable at $2. Kind of a situational thing. But with the Golds there's a higher cost than just losing a Gold, since you gift it to your opponent. I think that keeps it balanced at $4, but I could be wrong.

As for Land Grab, do you want to add an "if you do" clause? It really only matters in Throne Room/King's Court cases, whether you want them to be able to grab 2 or 3 Duchies with it. I don't have a strong opinion either way. I like the card.

[ChaosRed]

Thanks Newcomer, yeah Land Grab needs an "if you do", thanks for that I will adjust it. Agreed about the governor on Bribery, it's not as strong as mine and less versatile as Remodel, but it does let you pass cak to your opponent. Of course, without a 2 action card, swapping out Copper for an estate isn't a big thrill at all.

[rinkworks]

If you wanted to avoid the targeted attack (or benefit) of Bribery, you can probably make that idea work with what Ambassador does.  Return a card to the supply, each other player gains a copy of it, and you gain a copy of something costing up to $2 more.  Not a necessary change if you don't mind the way it only hits one opponent, but an idea if you do.

[ChaosRed]

Yeah its a superb idea, that way it blends better for multi-player. The real governor on Bribery is you can only pass (or return) treasure, and you can only upgrade by 2. So spamming copper is problematic, because on a lot of boards you're only getting an Estate out of it. So its possibly a dead card on boards where there is no 2-cost action card to acquire. Going from Silver to an 5-cost card is kind of nice, especially if your opponent doesn't want treasure.

Thanks for the comments as always rinkworks.