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Author Topic: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...  (Read 65561 times)

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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2011, 04:40:06 pm »
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I updated the two most contentious cards of the "cost 2" set. I modified the original post to reflect the changes. Here are the updates here though as well:





Took the suggestion to use Time Roman for rule text as well, as well as separating the base defense mechanic from the "during play" mechanics by a line.

Thoughts are welcome, I'll hold back from posting all four of the "cost 3" cards until I see, everyone is generally okay with the 2-cost cards, (even if many of them are slightly under-powered). Under-powered I don't mind, but utterly useless in almost any context is something I want to avoid.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 06:23:55 pm by ChaosRed »
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Deadlock39

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2011, 04:49:30 pm »
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Adventurer sets cards aside until it finds your two treasures, and then discards them, so you would get your two treasures, and then draw the next available card when your set aside cards got discarded.

There is an interesting ordering issue here as I am not sure there is a ruling on what order you discard your set aside cards.  I would probably rule that it is the same order your drew them.  This means that if you only have one treasure left in your deck (or only 2 and one is the very last card), then you have your entire deck set aside.  If you got to chose the order you discarded these cards, you could chose (sort of) which cards you drew with SQ.  If you discard the card you want first and then SQ, then you have a 50/50 shot of getting the card you wanted or the SQ.  If you have a second SQ in your deck, you are guaranteed that card.

ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2011, 04:53:25 pm »
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It does bring up a messy rules question as to whether players decide which order cards are discarded, or if they must happen on a "stack" where the first card set aside is discarded first (or perhaps its LIFO or perhaps players get to choose the order).
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ratxt1

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2011, 08:01:08 pm »
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regarding the rules question with adventurer i think it should be that they are all discarded simoultneously and i've alwasys felt thats how the card intended it
another word issue is on the new pupers feast is it
choose 1 trash paupers feast and up to 2 other cards costing less than 2
or gain a card costing up to 3 (as its worded now)

or

trash paupers feast choose 1 trash up to 2 other cards costing less than 2
or gain a card costing up to 3 (the old paupers feast with an added choice)

as how its worded now its more like a workshop than a feast
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biopower

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2011, 08:26:14 pm »
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Mixing Choice AND Reaction can be fun.

Example:

When an opponent plays an attack card, you may reveal this card once and...
Let the attack happen and gain a Silver, put it on your deck; or you are unaffected by the attack and must discard one card.

Options can be tweaked of course, Silver is often a somewhat harmless middle card that doesn't tilt the game too much either way.

I know the wording is a bit awkward and the mechanics may be too, but it seems like fun to be able to choose whether to be attacked and get a bonus or not be attacked and get a penalty.

I rather like this choice: "Reveal Bailey and discard a card. If you do so, you are unaffected by the attack." I'm not sure about the way gaining silvers would work but that's also a good idea. This solves the problem of having a better moat and makes more interactions with servants quarters.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 09:26:53 pm by biopower »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2011, 08:45:56 pm »
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It also brings up a rule issue though. If you play Adventurer, reveal a Servant's Quarters, you draw a card and that card happens to be a treasure card, does that also count as one of the two treasure cards that Adventurer tutors for, or since it was not the Adventurer that directly drew the card, could you still keep tutoring for two more treasures?
The Adventurer searches for two more Treasures. The Servant's Quarters draws the card before the Adventurer has the chance to reveal it.
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rinkworks

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2011, 11:32:56 pm »
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It also brings up a rule issue though. If you play Adventurer, reveal a Servant's Quarters, you draw a card and that card happens to be a treasure card, does that also count as one of the two treasure cards that Adventurer tutors for, or since it was not the Adventurer that directly drew the card, could you still keep tutoring for two more treasures?
The Adventurer searches for two more Treasures. The Servant's Quarters draws the card before the Adventurer has the chance to reveal it.

I think Deadlock has it right here.  The Servant's Quarters doesn't get activated until Adventurer discards it (not when it merely reveals it), and that doesn't happen until Adventurer is completely done with everything else it does.  So Adventurer would draw stuff to set-aside-land, pull two Treasures into the hand, and then discard the set-aside cards.  If Servant's Quarters is among the set-aside cards, it would then draw a card.

I also agree with ratxt1, that all the set-aside cards are discarded simultaneously.  That wouldn't allow for any kind of strategic ordering of the discarded cards.  They'd all go into the discard pile in a batch.  If a Servant's Quarters among them triggers a reshuffle, they all get reshuffled in.
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Kirian

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2011, 09:19:55 am »
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Strictly superior -- as in, "in this game, it's mathematically impossible for this card to be a more advantageous buy than this other card," kind of sucks.  Note, by the way, that none of the 100+ official Dominion cards fit this category.  Not even Hunting Party/Laboratory.  Even though, at this point, the chance of any particular card showing up with any particular other one is small and will only decrease as further expansions come out.

None?  Because I think a case could be made that Ghost Ship, at the very least, is always strictly superior to Counting House...
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rinkworks

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2011, 10:22:10 am »
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Strictly superior -- as in, "in this game, it's mathematically impossible for this card to be a more advantageous buy than this other card," kind of sucks.  Note, by the way, that none of the 100+ official Dominion cards fit this category.  Not even Hunting Party/Laboratory.  Even though, at this point, the chance of any particular card showing up with any particular other one is small and will only decrease as further expansions come out.

None?  Because I think a case could be made that Ghost Ship, at the very least, is always strictly superior to Counting House...

That's not even close to true.  In fact it's quite easy to think of situations where you'd rather the Ghost Ship in your hand was a Counting House instead.  Say there's one Province left, and your hand is Silver-Silver-Estate-Estate-X.   There are four Coppers in your discard pile, and only Provinces in your draw pile.  Counting House wins the game.  Ghost Ship doesn't.

What you're talking about is a card that is superior more often than not.  "Strictly superior" means something different.  If Card A is "strictly superior" to Card B, it means there is NEVER a situation where Card B is preferable.*

(*...Although in the domain of Dominion, we seem to allow for exceptions such as differing costs possibly being better suited to some particular use of Forge, Salvager, etc, and a few other side-effect uses like this.)

As was previously pointed out, on a board with no terminals or Tournament, Market is strictly superior to Bazaar, because the extra actions on Bazaar are never needed.  I suppose another example is Conspirator being strictly inferior to Militia, Cutpurse, and Navigator on a board with only terminals.  But these are extremely rare situations.
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Kirian

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2011, 02:16:53 pm »
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Strictly superior -- as in, "in this game, it's mathematically impossible for this card to be a more advantageous buy than this other card," kind of sucks.  Note, by the way, that none of the 100+ official Dominion cards fit this category.  Not even Hunting Party/Laboratory.  Even though, at this point, the chance of any particular card showing up with any particular other one is small and will only decrease as further expansions come out.

None?  Because I think a case could be made that Ghost Ship, at the very least, is always strictly superior to Counting House...

That's not even close to true.  In fact it's quite easy to think of situations where you'd rather the Ghost Ship in your hand was a Counting House instead.  Say there's one Province left, and your hand is Silver-Silver-Estate-Estate-X.   There are four Coppers in your discard pile, and only Provinces in your draw pile.  Counting House wins the game.  Ghost Ship doesn't.

What you're talking about is a card that is superior more often than not.  "Strictly superior" means something different.  If Card A is "strictly superior" to Card B, it means there is NEVER a situation where Card B is preferable.*

(*...Although in the domain of Dominion, we seem to allow for exceptions such as differing costs possibly being better suited to some particular use of Forge, Salvager, etc, and a few other side-effect uses like this.)

As was previously pointed out, on a board with no terminals or Tournament, Market is strictly superior to Bazaar, because the extra actions on Bazaar are never needed.  I suppose another example is Conspirator being strictly inferior to Militia, Cutpurse, and Navigator on a board with only terminals.  But these are extremely rare situations.

Ah, I was misunderstanding your definition of strictly superior.  Carry on :)
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2011, 02:42:42 pm »
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trash paupers feast choose 1 trash up to 2 other cards costing less than 2
or gain a card costing up to 3 (the old paupers feast with an added choice)

as how its worded now its more like a workshop than a feast

Yeah that's the way I currently intend it, it's a blend of a weak workshop or a rather weak chapel. I am not that thrilled with the card. I wanted a cheap upgrade ability, that maybe trashed a card or two. The card's name doesn't really match the theme though.

I am still not happy with the card. So I've changed it again, hopefully it has some utility and is still on theme:



It's now a weaker one-time chapel, or a very decent upgrade card. It doesn't do either function particularly well, but because it has the option and is worth only 2, it might be a decent early card.

As for the other discussion about the discard mechanic, thank you all for the clarification.

As to whether some cards are strictly weaker, I think this can become a bit semantic. Ambassador is a weak card, weaker than most, but there are instances where it is useful. 

Thank you all again for your feedback and I will post the 3-cost cards later today.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2011, 03:56:47 pm »
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Ambassador is a weak card, weaker than most, but there are instances where it is useful. 
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guided

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2011, 04:28:00 pm »
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Yes, either our OP is as noobish as he claims in the thread title, or he is a clever troll!

ChaosRed: Ambassador is the strongest 4/3 opening card in the 2p game. Yes, stronger than Chapel.

For anybody who's ignorant of the proper use of "strictly": It means what it says! "Strictly", as in, in every possible circumstance, always. If there is one impossibly rare and contrived case where Y is better than X, then X is not "strictly better" than Y. Period! If you say "strictly better" when you just mean "better" (or even "much better" or "usually better"), you're adding the word "strictly" to mean exactly the opposite of what it actually means.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2011, 04:50:41 pm »
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Yes, either our OP is as noobish as he claims in the thread title, or he is a clever troll!

ChaosRed: Ambassador is the strongest 4/3 opening card in the 2p game. Yes, stronger than Chapel.

For anybody who's ignorant of the proper use of "strictly": It means what it says! "Strictly", as in, in every possible circumstance, always. If there is one impossibly rare and contrived case where Y is better than X, then X is not "strictly better" than Y. Period! If you say "strictly better" when you just mean "better" (or even "much better" or "usually better"), you're adding the word "strictly" to mean exactly the opposite of what it actually means.

Usually we don't quite take this to this extreme (i.e. almost every card that is strictly worse would be better if you got possessed), but I agree in principle, which is why when I talk about things like this in printable cards, I usually say 'almost strictly better' or 'a strictly better effect' (i.e. Grand Market basically has a strictly better effect than market, which doesn't necessarily make it a better card 'cause it's harder to get) or some other such thing.

DStu

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2011, 05:12:42 pm »
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For anybody who's ignorant of the proper use of "strictly": It means what it says! "Strictly", as in, in every possible circumstance, always. If there is one impossibly rare and contrived case where Y is better than X, then X is not "strictly better" than Y. Period! If you say "strictly better" when you just mean "better" (or even "much better" or "usually better"), you're adding the word "strictly" to mean exactly the opposite of what it actually means.

Just as devil's advocate (or trolling, as you like): You could think that you mean strictly better in the sense of ... really strictly better (see ->recursion). I mean "strictly better" compared to "better" like  ">" to ">=". Which would be quite strange from the context, because comparing two different Dominioncards on equality would be like comparing two particle's positions AND momentums on equality, but anyway, you could maybe think that with "strictly" you want to exclude the equality-case, in which case you of course still talk about average values of cards. In which case GS would be "strictly better" than CH, for this definition of "strictly better".

And the longer I think about it (don't play with the devil....) this would be quite consequent, because if you introduce an ordering "better" that, as everybody seems to agree, compares the average values of cards, than "strictly better" of course also compares the average values of cards. So to be correct, we always should talk about "better on average" and "better in every situation".  That would be a little bit to anoying to really do it, so maybe we should just understand when someone for whatever reason just thinks of the "unconventional" (to avoid "wrong") definitions. Especially as not everybody is native speaker...
[/trolling]
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guided

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2011, 05:36:31 pm »
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There's a difference between speaking imprecisely and speaking precisely and wrongly. If somebody says "Grand Market is better than Counting House", well, we know that's not true 100% of the time, but even without further context it's clear what the speaker means and we can probably agree with their sentiment. If somebody says "Grand Market is strictly better than Counting House," on the other hand, they're saying something with an absolute, mathematically air-tight meaning that is simply false. Truth value of exactly 0.

It's quite clear that nobody is meaning to use "strictly" in the sense of differentiating > from >=, and short of contrariness for its own sake there's no reason to bring it up. What we have here is the same as people using "literally" to mean "figuratively", and man, if you're going to argue that it's OK to do that, at least do it from some kind of prescriptivist vs. descriptivist standpoint rather than pretending that the people speaking this way really know what they're doing.
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DStu

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2011, 05:50:23 pm »
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... and man, if you're going to argue that it's OK to do that, at least do it from some kind of prescriptivist vs. descriptivist standpoint rather than pretending that the people speaking this way really know what they're doing.

I thought that was what I did...
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2011, 06:08:31 pm »
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Yes, either our OP is as noobish as he claims in the thread title, or he is a clever troll!

I like the clever troll theory better than n00bish.  Just reading that post made me want to go propose a board with some village and an ambassador.  Nothing better than a game where the opponent finishes with 15+ coppers.
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tko

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2011, 06:23:24 pm »
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Just reading that post made me want to go propose a board with some village and an ambassador.  Nothing better than a game where the opponent finishes with 15+ coppers.
I played a game just this morning (too early to find a link) where I opened Walled Village/Ambassador into a 2nd Ambassador against my opponents Potion/Silver into Familiar.  The Walled Village was perfect for this strategy.  My opponent caught on to my 2 Ambassadors and picked up 2 but it was too late.  They ended up with more than 10 Coppers, maybe 14?  It was fun.

Especially considering since my kids have started school and life has become hectic, my rating has skydived to low twenties... a win is very rare for me these days.

And just yesterday I was winning the Torturer chain race when my internet quit on me... arghh, another rare win lost.
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2011, 06:57:19 pm »
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ChaosRed: Ambassador is the strongest 4/3 opening card in the 2p game. Yes, stronger than Chapel.

 Forgive me, I meant Chancellor not Ambassador. Apologies.
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2011, 08:28:38 pm »
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Here are the first two cost 3 cards. I have modified the original post to include them there as well...

Excursion


This is really meant to combo off of other cards in the set, or provide a unique way to recycle the cool victory cards like Harem or Nobles. It works off the discard pile, so you need a victory card in your discard pile to gain it to your hand. It's card neutral (you gain a card back for playing it) and it does not terminate, but of course, its usage is limited and on most boards, I don't see this as a compelling buy. However, with other cards on the board, it becomes extremely powerful.

Too narrow? Perhaps, but I thought it was interesting enough to see if it provoked any discussion.

Villa


This is my one "village" card (every expansion seems to have one). It is a pretty weak village, until you can ensure your deck will likely draw a victory card (or can fish a victory card with a card like Excursion or Scout). At that point, the card is VERY strong (perhaps too strong). I am very tempted to make the reward for having a victory card in your hand just get you +1 card. This way you get to a normal village (+2 actions, +1 card) but with an additional +1$, but you have to have a victory card, otherwise you get no cards (but do get +2 actions).

I do want a village type card, and thought this one might be fun.

There are two cost of 3 cards in the set, but I'll see if there is any harsh criticism or praise for these two cards, before unveiling them. And thank you all again for your great feedback!

« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 08:33:31 pm by ChaosRed »
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rod-

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2011, 08:42:05 pm »
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Villa is too strong even as an opening buy ; compare to baron.  If it were a duchy/province instead of 'a victory card' it would be different, but then it gets too close to tournament.  Excursion is, however, somewhat interesting.  It may suffer from being too bad on many boards, but as it is nonterminal, it has at least minor synergy with even non-victory based decks. (I could see picking up one or two in a scrying pool or golem engine if there weren't better sources available, although that could just be me trying too hard to make them work)
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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2011, 09:34:44 pm »
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Villa is definitely too strong.  I think at +1 Card for the bonus (which would make it a Bazaar when activated), it might work fine at $3 or might still need a boost to $4.  Not sure.  As is, it might even be too strong at $5.  I mean, Laboratory is +2 Cards, +1 Action with nothing else.  For an extra action AND an extra coin, I think that offsets the necessity of having a Victory card in hand more than you think.  Combined with a draw engine, you could basically activate these every time and enhance that draw engine even further.  It's a great idea, though.

Excursion -- I just really don't see the use.  Yeah, it's neat when there are hybrid Victory cards in play, but most of the time there isn't, and then what?  Obviously it combos with Villa too, but the card ought to be of some kind of use in general, and I think it's just normally good for nothing at all.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2011, 09:48:09 pm »
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I agree Villa as is is too strong, although I think if it became +1 card instead it would be too weak. I think "Reveal" should probably "Discard" to avoid mega City-like turns. Even then, it is essentially a Shanty Town + coins, and probably easier to activate than Shanty Town. Maybe it would be better priced at $4?
I can see Excursion going unbought in many games, except possibly on a couple of $3 turns when you don't want any more Silvers, but you're not ready for Estates yet. I suppose playing a bunch of them immediately before a reshuffle could set up your next deck pretty well. It would be interesting to see how well it can be used for that purpose.
Also combos well with Baron and other discard for benefit cards, Tournament, any kind of trasher/passer/returner. Possibly an opening of Remake/Excursion could be an efficient way of turning your Estates into Silvers.
Just thinking about the obvious dual-type Victory cards: Great Halls turn Excursion into a Lab. Harems turn it into an activated Conspirator. Nobles turn it into either a Village or +4 Cards. It obviously works great with Islands.
So yeah, it has nice combos. Would it be effective alone in making Victory cards miss reshuffles? I'm not sure.
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2011, 10:37:44 pm »
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Yeah it's too powerful, I kinda figured as much, but since the previous cards were perceived as too weak, I thought I'd propose the strongest variant first.

Here's the variant I had in mind. It combos with the Servant's Quarters obviously. It's essentially a weaker/stronger Hamlet, depending on your hand on what's on the board. I wanted Villa to be marquee, most expansions feature a really
nice village or at least one card that chains really nicely for a cost of 3 and I wanted it to be this card.



You do not have to discard the Victory revealed. You could play it, reveal a victory, discard two copper, draw 2 cards and if you draw another Villa, play it again. It's card negative (if you include the villa, it costs you 3 to acquire 2 and even then only if you have a land card), so I don't think its broken, but it seems to have the potential for some really nice combinations if you can keep drawing them on a dense deck. It isn't a Minion change by any means, but I think the card has some potential. It's not earth shattering, but since it combos with Servant Quarters, (and one other card in the expansion), I think it can work.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 10:41:15 pm by ChaosRed »
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