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Author Topic: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square  (Read 66191 times)

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StrongRhino

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2013, 05:50:39 pm »
0

I just managed to set off the Market squares twice in my last game, could have bought 8 Provinces.
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Qvist

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2013, 07:23:08 am »
+3

Ok, after I played this combo the first time in the GokoDom I, I'm really interested in getting some in-depth look. Suppose there are no Attack cards in the kingdom, so you can play this combo safely. Just some thoughts how I think you should play:

1.) Denial Strategy
Let's assume other strong cards are on the board. How can you counter this? If you don't contest Hermits or Market Squares at all, you don't have to fear a 3-pile ending, but getting Provinces is really risky. If you don't get 5 Province until he triggers this combo, you're dead anyway and still he can get 3 Provinces and 5 Duchies and win, so you really need 6 Provinces in that time and most combos aren't that fast. So I don't think that's viable most of the times.

But I still think a denial strategy might be possible. You have to either contest the Hermits or the Market Squares. If Market Square is the only source of cheap +Buy contesting those could work out. If you can get 6-7 Market Squares really fast, this combo will have problems with only 4-5 Buys and not much Gold. Market Squares probably won't hurt your deck that much, but you still have to be careful not to lose too much speed. You probably need one Hermit yourself, but only to get a lot Market Squares and get some Gold with them while you keep building your engine.

Contesting the Hermits is probably the better option as you can't set the combo up without Hermit, but the cases when this works are probably still rare. Because when you pick up lots of Hermits - faster than your opponent - you're half on the way on setting this combo by yourself.

2.) Mirror Match
In a mirror match you all play for a mega turn. This means you want to end the game when you trigger this. But as none of you gets any points before that and Hermits and Market Square will run out, it's all about winning with one point and 3-pile. 3-piling Estates is the most obvious thing. If you have an even split, then you need 1 Hermit and 4 Madmen to trigger this which means that you have only 6 buys with 5 Market Squares. You could gain 1 Estate with that one Hermit that you can trash to trigger the Market Squares. Still you're one buy short. So if there's any source of +Buy you should really get it. It's not that important to have enough money as you only need $14 to 3-pile the estates. As long as you have at least 5 Hermits and enough buys you're safe.

Another possibility would be to trigger this earlier to get as many points and Gold as you can get. That's tricky because you probably won't have enough money for that. You will probably get 5 Golds only which means only $22 and 6 buys. If you focus on that you should try to get some Golds while setting this up and wait until you have enough for 4 Provinces which means 3 Golds and one Copper for $32. After you've bought 4 Provinces you could safely try to 3-pile the Estates afterwards.


Comments?

Robz888

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2013, 03:16:27 pm »
+2

I think the best way to beat this combo is probably to start draining a third pile almost immediately, help drain the Hermits and Market Squares, and win narrowly off a few VP points or cards. I don't know if you could even possibly make Estates that third pile, in which case the you probably want to build up a bit with nice +buy and +$ cards, and then go all in... but you have to do this before Turn 12!

Another gainer--a Workshop or an Ironworks or something--might actually help you out. Of course Hermit is itself a gainer.
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AdamH

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2013, 03:29:01 pm »
0

The times I've lost playing this combo, it was because of a quick 3-pile ending. Granted, it was also because I thought I shouldn't be getting Madmen until I was done gaining Hermits and Market Squares, but yeah...
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eHalcyon

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2013, 03:15:03 pm »
+2

In the works well with, you mention that Scheme helps you line up Madmen.  How do you mean?  It doesn't in the straightforward way (topdecking your Madman) since Madman is returned to the Supply when returned.

Just wanted to note that this mistake is still in the article on dominionstrategy.com, though it has been fixed in the version here in the forums.
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Bron

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2013, 04:15:03 pm »
0

Very nice combo!
I'd like to add a comment about the odd number od hermits. Herowanabe basicaly claims that you should have:
3+X madmen
X trashers (Hermits)
and that one aditional trasher is for nothing. I do not agree - one can exploit it one bit further with X+1 trashers.

Let's consider a model situation where you have 5 madmen, 3 hermits, 4 market squares, 7 coppers and 3 estates
Start by playing 3 madmen to take remaining cards in hand (as usual), then use the trick twice, while gaining market squares and you end up with hand consisting of 1 hermit, 6 market squares, 7 coppers, 9 golds and one estate (as usual + that one hermit)
And now you can trash the last estate (gain silver) discard 2 market sqares and safely draw the discard pile with remaining 4 market squares and you end up playing
all 7 market squares, 11 golds, 1 silver, 7 coppers to finally have $42 and 8 buys - enough to buy 5 provinces and an estate

so that one more madman was able to add $8 (2 golds+silver) for the fith province
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Awaclus

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2013, 05:23:55 pm »
0

Very nice combo!
I'd like to add a comment about the odd number od hermits. Herowanabe basicaly claims that you should have:
3+X madmen
X trashers (Hermits)
and that one aditional trasher is for nothing. I do not agree - one can exploit it one bit further with X+1 trashers.

Let's consider a model situation where you have 5 madmen, 3 hermits, 4 market squares, 7 coppers and 3 estates
Start by playing 3 madmen to take remaining cards in hand (as usual), then use the trick twice, while gaining market squares and you end up with hand consisting of 1 hermit, 6 market squares, 7 coppers, 9 golds and one estate (as usual + that one hermit)
And now you can trash the last estate (gain silver) discard 2 market sqares and safely draw the discard pile with remaining 4 market squares and you end up playing
all 7 market squares, 11 golds, 1 silver, 7 coppers to finally have $42 and 8 buys - enough to buy 5 provinces and an estate

so that one more madman was able to add $8 (2 golds+silver) for the fith province
I think you should probably turn the extra Hermit into a Madman. You don't need the fifth Province, but an extra Madman makes getting two in the same hand more likely to happen and the occasional fizzling despite having two Madmen in the starting 5 less likely to happen.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 05:25:02 pm by Awaclus »
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Bron

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2013, 06:13:41 pm »
0

I think you should probably turn the extra Hermit into a Madman. You don't need the fifth Province, but an extra Madman makes getting two in the same hand more likely to happen and the occasional fizzling despite having two Madmen in the starting 5 less likely to happen.
Maybe - but i wanted to stress the other point - that having X+3 madmen and X+1 trashers is not a waste of that one trasher. That example I used was to explain how to implement it. But let us also consider this. Suppose that I have 5 madmen and 3 hermits and I plan to turn one more hermit into madman and suddenly two of my madmen collide; I think I should use the opportunity.

You can have simillar situation with 6 madmen, 4 foragers and 5 market squares. You can argue the It would be better to have one more market square instead of that forager, but maybe market squares were contested ...

Ok I have to admit that going with only 5 madmen is risky since there is a chance of not drawing your third madman when you start with hand with 2 of them. But such scenario was suggested by OP: 5 madmen + 2 hermit.
I'm just saying that if you can add one more, go ahead.

What I was not able to investigate during my tests is that when I skip that 8th hermit buy/gain will that make the combo kick in sooner or later?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 06:22:21 pm by Bron »
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Powerman

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2013, 07:52:55 pm »
0

Wow, first time I ever did this!  http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130612/log.5144ecf7e4b0bef57ec85b7d.1371081062619.txt

Didn't get as many Madmen as I would have liked, but I pulled the trigger anyway since I was afraid of 3 piling.  On turn 9!!
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yed

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2013, 06:36:32 am »
+1

So powerful if your opponent don't know what are you doing.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130721/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1374402766200.txt
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Polk5440

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2013, 01:41:25 pm »
+1

I know I am really late to the party on commenting on this article, but I have to say, I think the article in the opening post is really well done because it is explicit about WHEN to pull the trigger and what pulling the trigger looks like.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2013, 03:20:12 pm »
0

So powerful if your opponent don't know what are you doing.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130721/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1374402766200.txt

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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

GendoIkari

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2013, 02:49:57 pm »
0

I did this in real life once... 3 player game. I didn't really know what I was doing, I had read through some of this thread but didn't remember all the details.

Anyway, I pulled the trigger with 4 or 5 Madmen in my deck. It was delayed a few turns because of a discard attack that kept starting me with 3-card turns. Anyway, after I played 2 Madmen and a couple other things I had my whole deck, including lots of Market Squares. This is when I realized... I didn't have a single Squire left, nor any other card that could trash cards. So yeah.... :-[

Tried it again with my remaining Madmen, this time it worked pretty well, though by this time I wasn't sure that I would win if I bought out the remaining Provinces, I hadn't been tracking well and one of the other players had been buying up a bunch of Duchies to go with the Provinces. So I bought all but 1 Province and a bunch of Duchies instead. Game ended a couple turns later; I had a pretty big lead; could have won by ending it before.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2013, 01:08:25 pm »
0

Just learned about this combo today... pretty neat.

Tried it about half-a-dozen times on lord bottington, only lost once when I messed it up.

Excited to try it on real people sometime.  :)
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liopoil

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2013, 01:11:04 pm »
0

tried this IRL. It wasn't contested, so I just kept building it up. When I finally triggered it.....

there wasn't nearly enough gold in the gold pile for me :(

I won anyway though :)
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2013, 03:04:49 pm »
0

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild
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LastFootnote

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #67 on: December 02, 2013, 03:37:37 pm »
0

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild

You're a monster. You want to practice with a pre-made kingdom? Practice against bots.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:39:18 pm by LastFootnote »
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GeoLib

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2013, 03:43:37 pm »
+2

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild

You're a monster. You want to practice with a pre-made kingdom? Practice against bots.

And this is why I don't play in casual mode...
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LastFootnote

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2013, 03:51:46 pm »
+2

And this is why I don't play in casual mode...

I on the other hand play almost exclusively casual and unrated games. I have a randomizer that makes sets with 5 cards from each of 2 expansions. I'd prefer casual and unrated games didn't lose this feature due people abusing it.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2013, 04:22:32 pm »
+6

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild

You're a monster. You want to practice with a pre-made kingdom? Practice against bots.

Goko allows partial card selection, right?  If you really want to practice this combo but not against bots, then include Hermit and Market Square but leave the rest of the kingdom random.  Then you can actually practice less than ideal kingdoms, learn to identify counters and adapt to such scenarios.
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Polk5440

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2013, 04:29:57 pm »
+1

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild

You're a monster. You want to practice with a pre-made kingdom? Practice against bots.

And this is why I don't play in casual mode...

Why? Are you afraid of being crushed and learning something?  ;)

Don't forget that you can always check the kingdom before joining a casual game.
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GeoLib

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2013, 04:44:26 pm »
+3

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild

You're a monster. You want to practice with a pre-made kingdom? Practice against bots.

And this is why I don't play in casual mode...

Why? Are you afraid of being crushed and learning something?  ;)

Don't forget that you can always check the kingdom before joining a casual game.

Because one of my favorite things about Dominion is that it's symmetric. Playing against someone who's been practicing a particular board breaks that.
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Polk5440

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2013, 04:48:23 pm »
0


Because one of my favorite things about Dominion is that it's symmetric. Playing against someone who's been practicing a particular board breaks that.

Good point. I agree with that.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2013, 05:24:04 pm »
+6

Because one of my favorite things about Dominion is that it's symmetric. Playing against someone who's been practicing a particular board breaks that.
By that logic, doesn't playing against Stef on any board break that as well?
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