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Author Topic: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square  (Read 66189 times)

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Herowannabe

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2013, 06:43:40 pm »
0

In response to several people's comments:

I edited the article and mentioned a few of the other cards that work well with the combo, however I didn't add too many. The beautiful thing about this combo is that unlike most others it's completely self reliant: it doesn't need any outside help to make it work. So any other cards you pick up delays getting a necessary component by a turn.

Also, I'm skeptical that any cards costing more than $3 will realistically be helpful. As you start picking up all those hermits it becomes increasingly unlikely that you'll ever have more than $3 to spend- at least not until you're ready to pull the trigger.

That being said, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Band of Misfits: in a pinch they could be used as substitute Hermits or Market Squares if either is in short supply. Although I suppose that wouldn't work if either pile emptied out...
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DrFlux

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2013, 06:48:29 pm »
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First, I would hope to be able to trigger the market squares more than once (ideally another trasher is on the board and it should be possible to get 4-5 madmen), which would give about ~10 gold. If you manage to get 11, this gives you enough for 5 provinces. With your opponent having only 6 buys, there is no way they will catch you in a single mega-turn. So this is your goal, and I wouldn't do it by buying gold beforehand unless that was the only way.

In your example, if your opponent gets 3 provinces, how long is it going to take you to get 6 gold? Are you assuming they are doing nothing in this time? If they buy two more provinces in that time, you are out of luck again.

In a mirror with a 5/5 split of each component, I would imagine you'd want to hit the trigger earlyish -- as in all likelyhood every turn AFTER the combo will also produce a province, due to all those gold.

Actually in a 5/5 split you might be better off waiting and pulling the trigger second. If you pull the trigger as soon as you can, say with no golds in your deck beforehand, you'll end up with 7c + 5g = $22. Not much of a mega turn- only two provinces and a duchy/gold. Say you managed to pick up two golds before hand, it's still only $28 for 3 provinces and a couple estates.

Rather I would suggest pulling the trigger second, which gives you control over when the game ends. In the situation of a 5/5 split I think I would try to avoid trashing my hermits into madmen until I had picked up most/all of my share of the market squares. Then as you trash you can gain multiple golds. If you can pick up at least 6 golds before pulling the trigger it will net you 11g + 7c = $40, enough to pick up 5 provinces. If your opponent went before you and only managed to grab 3 provinces then you just won the game.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2013, 08:06:17 pm »
0

That being said, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Band of Misfits: in a pinch they could be used as substitute Hermits or Market Squares if either is in short supply. Although I suppose that wouldn't work if either pile emptied out...

BoM is on the expensive side though, and while you can use it to get cantrip +Buy by copying Market Square, you cannot emulate the MS reaction which is critical for the megaturn.

There is also a bigger danger in that BoM cannot copy a card that has run out.  Hermit is expected to run out, and Market Square may very well run as well.  Then BoM can be neither of those!
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dondon151

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2013, 08:21:41 pm »
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Has anyone ever examined the mirror match? I feel that at a 5/5 split of the Hermits (and I suppose Market Squares) results in either insufficient trashing (if you trash Hermits somewhat early for Madmen) or insufficient draw (if you don't trash all of your Hermits and/or can't draw a second Madman after the first). Not only that, but you don't have enough buys to empty out a third pile with 5 MSs and your engine is dead after it fires once.

It's the same thing that happens in NV-Bridge mirrors, except NV-Bridge can usually grab a couple of other cheap cards along the way whereas this is much less able at doing so.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 08:22:52 pm by dondon151 »
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2013, 08:30:37 pm »
0

Rouge is slow, but I think it is better than Graverobber at least. And I think that having $5 is very unlikely, seeing as the only cash you have is coppers. Although BoM would be a good pickup on a 5/2 split.
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Powerman

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2013, 08:33:05 pm »
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I'd definitely say pull the trigger first in a mirror.  At worst, you'll buy 2 or 3 provinces, and then have a deck full of gold.  Not too shabby, I'd say.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2013, 08:38:19 pm »
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That would be about six or seven Gold which is nice, yes, but you have to be open to the fact that your opponent can squeeze a win after you buy your fourth Province by puling the trigger on his more built deck.
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DrFlux

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2013, 09:29:37 pm »
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I think this is likely to happen if there is no other (preferably non-terminal) draw on the board, and no other trashers. On many boards though, there will be alternate trashers, meaning up to 5 madmen, which is plenty. Also I could imagine some boards where extra draw would be critical. Particularly wharf/tactician/caravan, or perhaps village/smithy. Obviously with more expensive components you would have to play this differently, and it might be tricky to balance economy with racing for the key combo components.

I wish this was on isotropic, I'd love to test it out. Maybe its time for me to check out Goku again, see if its  more playable now.

Has anyone ever examined the mirror match? I feel that at a 5/5 split of the Hermits (and I suppose Market Squares) results in either insufficient trashing (if you trash Hermits somewhat early for Madmen) or insufficient draw (if you don't trash all of your Hermits and/or can't draw a second Madman after the first). Not only that, but you don't have enough buys to empty out a third pile with 5 MSs and your engine is dead after it fires once.

It's the same thing that happens in NV-Bridge mirrors, except NV-Bridge can usually grab a couple of other cheap cards along the way whereas this is much less able at doing so.
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TWoos

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2013, 11:48:14 am »
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Rouge is slow, but I think it is better than Graverobber at least.

I don't think I understand why Rogue is better than Graverobber.  They both cost $5, they both take a card from the trash costing from $3 to $6.  Graverobber additionally places it on top of your deck.

Isn't that a good thing?

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jomini

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2013, 12:09:15 pm »
+2

In response to several people's comments:

I edited the article and mentioned a few of the other cards that work well with the combo, however I didn't add too many. The beautiful thing about this combo is that unlike most others it's completely self reliant: it doesn't need any outside help to make it work. So any other cards you pick up delays getting a necessary component by a turn.

Also, I'm skeptical that any cards costing more than $3 will realistically be helpful. As you start picking up all those hermits it becomes increasingly unlikely that you'll ever have more than $3 to spend- at least not until you're ready to pull the trigger.

That being said, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Band of Misfits: in a pinch they could be used as substitute Hermits or Market Squares if either is in short supply. Although I suppose that wouldn't work if either pile emptied out...

The combo is rock solid if the Hermits are uncontested, but I haven't seen any games with contested Hermits out here. And Hermit/Madman is a very contestable card.

Let's say you split the Hermits 4/6, because hey that's what WILL most likely happen if Hermits are the most contested card and you go second. That gives you 4 Madmen. Okay play 2 of those to draw up to 14 cards in hand, you have 7 coppers from your start and let's spot you 4 Market squares, two trashers and an estate to trash. This means you can gain 4 gold by trashing a card, this however reduces your hand by 6 cards (4 Mrksqr, 1 Trasher, 1 Trashed card), playing a Madman will only draw you 7 cards (you had 8 in your discard). Trashing a Mrksqr will most likely get you 3 more golds and drop you down to 9 cards. You now have 9 cards in discard and draw 8 with your last Madman. You draw the rest with your Mrksqr's and so you end up with 6-7 gold or ~28 coin. Now that's a nice solid 3 provinces and maybe a duchy ... but that isn't game winning ... even buying a province next turn won't seal it for you - Madman is too good an enabling megaturns (Bridge, Horn of plenty, Highway, Governor, Coppersmith, Bank, Beggar, Vault/Secret chamber/Storeroom, Goons, etc.) which is likely what contested

Now let's be sneaky and add two cards to the above: a Coppersmith and a haven. With the haven you start with 6 cards, you gain get to 18 cards (9 copper, two trashers, 4 Mrksqr, Coppersmith, and two estates to trash) with two Madmen played. You trash a card and discard 4 Mrksqr, dropping to 12 cards in hand and having 8 cards in discard. You play a Madman, drawing all your cards, trash your other estate and draw all your cards. You play the Csmith. That gives you 8 gold and effectively 9 silver for 42 coin, enough for 5 provinces or 4 provinces and 2 duchies.

Yeah you'd do better with a 5th Mrksqr over the Csmith here, but I'd trying to keep parity here. You also can do much better with a second Csmith.

Likewise, as you've noted discard attacks hurt viciously and about 1/3rd of Madman/Mrksqr games will have a discard attack. A decent percentage of games will have no other trashers so even in a 6/4 split you will have to make do with only 4 Madmen draws. Then of course there are colony boards in contested Madmen games. There just are a LOT of times where you won't be able to get enough Hermits to build the full combo and lockdown the game. Enter all the other cards mentioned. Haven gives you MASSIVELY more flexibility and it is not like with all the Hermits/Madman/junk to trash in your deck you won't hit a few 2 coin hands and waiting for 6 or 7 card starting hand can be worth it. Tac can massively drop your needed Madman count or increase your payout, or let you play the combo even when being Militia'd every turn.

Yeah if the other guy doesn't go for Madmen, then buy very little costing more than 2 outside the combo. If he does, then you need to offer some strategy in your article other than "well you mostly likely lose if you go second and the other guy isn't ignorant".

Twoos: 2 Cash will often be very important for hitting 3 coin when your have colliding Hermit/Rogue & dead Madmen you do not yet want to play. With no additional treasure in deck, you have to hit 3 coin from 4 cards using only coppers with Graverobber, Rogue just needs 1 in 4 cards to be a copper. So Graverobber gains you a Hermit to deck top, Rogue let's gain a Hermit and more likely buy one as well. Lastly, near the megaturn you actually don't want the Hermit on deck top, you want more odds for Madmen so you can go off sooner. Graverobber does have the bonus of being able to trash actions ... but so does Hermit and the point of either trash diving card is to have plenty of Hermits when you fire off the megaturn.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2013, 06:27:36 pm »
0

Rouge is slow, but I think it is better than Graverobber at least.

I don't think I understand why Rogue is better than Graverobber.  They both cost $5, they both take a card from the trash costing from $3 to $6.  Graverobber additionally places it on top of your deck.

Isn't that a good thing?
Rogue gives cash, and has the attack for early on. Also, if there are no Hermits in the trash yet, it still has a decent effect.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 09:57:50 pm by Morgrim7 »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2013, 06:45:30 pm »
+5

Rouge is slow, but I think it is better than Graverobber at least.

I don't think I understand why Rogue is better than Graverobber.  They both cost $5, they both take a card from the trash costing from $3 to $6.  Graverobber additionally places it on top of your deck.

Isn't that a good thing?
Rouge gives cash, and has the attack for early on. Also, if there are no Hermits in the trash yet, it still has a decent effect.

It's Rogue. Rogue. Like the X-men character, not the Moulin. I have no idea why I'm so irrationally unnerved by this.

dondon151

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2013, 07:04:36 pm »
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That is also a pet peeve of mine. Right behind "could care less."
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Avalanchian

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2013, 07:27:09 pm »
+4

Rouge gives cash.

This is the statement that worries me the most :o
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2013, 09:55:51 pm »
0

Rouge gives cash.

This is the statement that worries me the most :o
Heh. +1. 
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"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
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eHalcyon

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2013, 03:39:20 am »
+3

Rouge gives cash.

This is the statement that worries me the most :o
Heh. +1.

Scumbag Morgrim says +1 but doesn't actually +1. ;)
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2013, 06:13:18 am »
0

+1  ;)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 06:14:26 am by Morgrim7 »
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"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

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SirPeebles

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2013, 07:27:17 pm »
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In the works well with, you mention that Scheme helps you line up Madmen.  How do you mean?  It doesn't in the straightforward way (topdecking your Madman) since Madman is returned to the Supply when returned.

A benefit of Scheme not mentioned is that it is perfect Hermit fodder in the mega turn.  If you pick up a Scheme or three, then trash away all of your Estates and gain Market Squares for reaction during the mega turn, because you can trash away the Schemes to trigger the Market Squares.

Edit:  While Scheme doesn't help line up Madmen, Haven does.  Haven is also cheap.  Even if you don't have a Madman in hand, using Haven increases the handsize for your next turn, increasing your likelihood to draw additional Madmen.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 07:41:49 pm by SirPeebles »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2013, 07:38:28 pm »
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As Band of Misfits, it could potentially be a nice buy with a 5/2 opening, although I would be sure to trash it away for a Madman before the Hermits run out.  On the other hand, I'm a bit skeptical of going for this strategy with a 5/2 opening since you're practically doomed to lose the split versus 4/3.  On the other hand, Tactician/Haven could be a powerful opening that would get by with fewer Madmen.
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Herowannabe

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2013, 11:06:56 pm »
0

In the works well with, you mention that Scheme helps you line up Madmen.  How do you mean?  It doesn't in the straightforward way (topdecking your Madman) since Madman is returned to the Supply when returned.

A benefit of Scheme not mentioned is that it is perfect Hermit fodder in the mega turn.  If you pick up a Scheme or three, then trash away all of your Estates and gain Market Squares for reaction during the mega turn, because you can trash away the Schemes to trigger the Market Squares.

Edit:  While Scheme doesn't help line up Madmen, Haven does.  Haven is also cheap.  Even if you don't have a Madman in hand, using Haven increases the handsize for your next turn, increasing your likelihood to draw additional Madmen.

Sorry, I didn't think that through at the time, and realized shortly after that schemes do NOT work well with Madmen... My bad. Fixing it now.

Good point about Haven, adding that to the article.

Yeah if the other guy doesn't go for Madmen, then buy very little costing more than 2 outside the combo. If he does, then you need to offer some strategy in your article other than "well you mostly likely lose if you go second and the other guy isn't ignorant".

I totally agree. However, I haven't posted anything in the article because to be blunt I haven't yet seen any mirror matches play out. I have no clue what the best strategy in a mirror match would actually be. I would love to see some though, so if anyone has any sample games dealing with a Madman race, please share!  ;)

Also kudos to you for pointing out Haven synergies.  ;D
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crazyrunnerguy

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2013, 02:17:51 pm »
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Quote
I want to preface this by saying that this is probably a combo for advanced players. It requires a careful balance, a knowledge of exactly what's in your deck, as well precise timing to pull off correctly, without which your deck could easily flop.
Great article and a really impressive combo - on par with the impressive and intimidating nature of mega strategies (KC/KC/Bridge x3) or Scrying Pool-enabled engines - these are the key phrases to understanding this combo. The combo is a melting of mega-turn with an engine, and that's what to me makes it a very high-level combo. I haven't played Dark Ages but I had to read through the cards several times before I feel like I scratched the surface of how these cards interact and how to properly play them to make this combo go boom. It feels most like Native Village/Bridge, where on your megaturn, you Native Village to draw/set aside all but your last NV on your mega (to continue setting aside cards, and pick them up with the last NV and lather, rinse, repeat until all NV's have been played) and then play all of your Bridges and you know how it ends.

As for how to kill it, I agree that a constant discard attack (Torturer may be the most effective because it can act as a junker, too, but the hand-size increasing nature of the curse-in-hand may negatively affect the Torturer player because it increases the amount of cards drawn by Madman) or a good junker (Hag, Moutebank) may be the best way to slow it down subject to the notes in the article re: trashing curses. The problem is that the combo draws so many cards so quickly that even with three cards in hand (two of which are Madmen, or if you know you have at least one Madmen in next four cards if you play (i.e. if you have a small draw stack remaining)) that this is a difficult combo to beat.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 02:21:33 pm by crazyrunnerguy »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2013, 07:05:34 pm »
0

Quote
I want to preface this by saying that this is probably a combo for advanced players. It requires a careful balance, a knowledge of exactly what's in your deck, as well precise timing to pull off correctly, without which your deck could easily flop.
Great article and a really impressive combo - on par with the impressive and intimidating nature of mega strategies (KC/KC/Bridge x3) or Scrying Pool-enabled engines - these are the key phrases to understanding this combo. The combo is a melting of mega-turn with an engine, and that's what to me makes it a very high-level combo. I haven't played Dark Ages but I had to read through the cards several times before I feel like I scratched the surface of how these cards interact and how to properly play them to make this combo go boom. It feels most like Native Village/Bridge, where on your megaturn, you Native Village to draw/set aside all but your last NV on your mega (to continue setting aside cards, and pick them up with the last NV and lather, rinse, repeat until all NV's have been played) and then play all of your Bridges and you know how it ends.

As for how to kill it, I agree that a constant discard attack (Torturer may be the most effective because it can act as a junker, too, but the hand-size increasing nature of the curse-in-hand may negatively affect the Torturer player because it increases the amount of cards drawn by Madman) or a good junker (Hag, Moutebank) may be the best way to slow it down subject to the notes in the article re: trashing curses. The problem is that the combo draws so many cards so quickly that even with three cards in hand (two of which are Madmen, or if you know you have at least one Madmen in next four cards if you play (i.e. if you have a small draw stack remaining)) that this is a difficult combo to beat.

In my experience junking attacks are too slow, given that the Hermits can trash them even from the discard pile or hand, meaning that you can often trash the Curse before it's even shuffled into your deck unless it comes from a Sea Hag.  Sea Hag still doesn't slow you down enough, or more importantly does build your opponent's deck quickly enough to compete against this megaturn strategy (Sea Hag really relies on sacrificing your own speed to slow your opponent even more).

Now, things may be different if you're underfire from multiple junkers per turn, such as from a strong engine, a Cultist chain, or just a multiplayer game with standard junking.

I don't really see this as an engine / megaturn mix either.  Seems to be squarely a megaturn combo.  The reason it was considered for advanced players is because you need to keep track of your deck composition rather carefully, and especially need to watch out for going over 29 cards unless you have a plan.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2013, 04:58:11 pm »
+3

I did it! Took me 14 turns, but by then it was overkill, I could have pulled the trigger earlier.

This is one of the all time great combos. On the board I played, there was no interference, so I got to just sort of play my own game, paying zero attention to my opponent, who probably thought I was nuts. And then, boom!!! So great.

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130329/log.513116c8e4b08cb66ebe8f95.1364590505459.txt
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2013, 05:05:26 pm »
+1

yeah... I've done it irl and it's sweet...
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2013, 04:52:57 pm »
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http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130329/log.513116c8e4b08cb66ebe8f95.1364590505459.txt

Just want you to know that reading this log was a light-bulb-moment for me on how to play this properly. I started getting Madmen way too late and it was delaying when I pull the trigger. This combo is much more reliable the way you played it and I can't wait to try this IRL again. I've tried it twice, my opponents had no idea what I was doing, and I didn't get it off in time. They wondered why I randomly decided to just let them win that game.
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