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Author Topic: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square  (Read 48726 times)

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Herowannabe

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Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« on: February 05, 2013, 09:58:38 pm »
+69

I'm sure I'm not the first one to see this combo, but I searched and can't find it mentioned anywhere, so I thought I'd try my hand at writing an article about it. This is my first article (first post actually) so feel free to comment and offer suggestions.

I want to preface this by saying that this is probably a combo for advanced players. It requires a careful balance, a knowledge of exactly what's in your deck, as well precise timing to pull off correctly, without which your deck could easily flop.

The gist of the combo is this: grab as many hermits as you can, then grab as many Market Squares as you can while you turn most of your hermits into madmen. Then, in one explosive mega-turn, use the Madmen to draw your whole deck then use the Market Squares and remaining hermits and madmen to simultaneously gain a whole bunch of golds and draw them into your hand, then buy a bunch of victory cards and end the game. Sound far fetched? Let me explain.


STEP 1 - Grab the Hermits

Ideally you should open Hermit-Hermit, then on your next turns, use the hermits to gain more hermits in addition to buying any hermits you can afford. If you can't afford to buy a Hermit then don't buy anything that turn and let the Hermit you played change into a Madman. (Note, if you draw any of your Madmen then resist the temptation to use them! You'll need them later.) If you use the Hermits' trashing ability, make sure you leave at least 1 estate/shelter/useless card in your deck to trash later.

Ideally you should aim to grab 9 of the hermits, but if you can't grab 9 then 7 will work (5 is less useful, but maybe not completely disastrous). There isn't much use in gaining an even number of Hermits, so if you can't get the 9th or 7th Hermit, don't bother with the 8th or 6th. Move on to step 2 instead.


Step 2 - Turn Hermits into Madmen while grabbing Market Squares.

Start grabbing as many Market Squares as you can. You do not need to empty the market square pile completely- it's a good idea to leave a few behind to pick up with your hermits on your megaturn if you think your opponent will leave them there.

At the same time start turning more Hermits into Madmen. Your goal should be to have exactly 3 more Madmen then you have Hermits (ie: 6 Madmen and 3 Hermits, or 5 and 2).

Also, beware of letting your deck grow too big (ie: if your opponent is filling it with curses/ruins and you are Hermit/MSing them into golds). The ideal deck size is 29 cards or less. You'll see why in the next step.

Step 3 - Determining when to pull the trigger

I made this its own step because sometimes even when your deck is ready you will want to wait a few turns before pulling the trigger.

There are many things to consider when deciding when to pull the trigger, but here are the most crucial ones:
•Your deck: it should be 29 cards or less, and is composed of your starting 7 coppers, 1-3 Estates/Shelters, exactly 3 more Madmen than you have Hermits, as many Market Squares as possible, and maybe a gold or two.
•Your hand: it should have at least 2 Madmen in it, and you haven't been hit by any hand-size reduction attacks this turn. Pulling the trigger with only 1 Madman in hand is risky- you might miss drawing a second one.
•The kingdom: There should probably be enough nearly-empty piles that you can end the game quickly, and you want to make sure you don't wait too long and give your opponent(s) enough time to snatch up too many provinces.

Beyond this I don't know what else to tell you about deciding when to pull the trigger. At the very least I suggest that you practice this combo a few times solo or against a computer before trying it against a live opponent.

Step 4 - KaBOOM!

Pulling the Trigger should go something like this:
Play your first Madman, drawing 4 cards.
Play your second Madman, drawing 7 cards.
Play your third Madman, drawing 13 cards. Assuming you kept your deck 29 cards or smaller, you should now have your whole deck in your hand.

Play your first Hermit, and trash that useless non-treasure card you have been holding on to this whole time. If you need more junk cards for your other hermit(s) to trash, make sure to pick one up now. Or if you can pick up those market squares you left behind to use later in the turn.
As a reaction to your trashed card, discard all of those Market Squares in your hand and gain a fistful of gold.
Play your fourth Madman, drawing all those golds and Market Squares.

Repeat with each Hermit/Madman pair that you have, using the last Hermit to pick up a silver, or maybe a card from a pile you want to empty.
Now you should have a giant hand full of Gold and Market Squares, with a spattering of copper. Play all of your Market Squares to get all the +buys that you need.
Now just buy up a bunch of Provinces and any cards you need to 3-pile the game (if needed).


Strengths

This combo/engine has a lot going for it.
•It's very fast. It may not seem like it, seeing as it takes around 10+ turns to build it up, but unlike most other engines, the "mid game" and "end game" phases happen entirely on one turn. This also makes it rather surprising for your opponent if they haven't seen it before.
•It isn't really affected by most attacks, with one or two exceptions (see below). Since you really only need to be able to play one Hermit each turn, hand size reduction attacks are pretty much moot. They will still slow you down a little, but likely not enough to matter. Cursers or Junkers don't do much either, since (unless they are giving you coppers) you can use your Hermits to trash them out of your hand or discard pile.
•You only need to buy two cards (Hermit and Market Square) to pull this combo off, and both of them only cost $3. No need to build up to get the $5s or $6s or $7s.
• Both of the cards you need are from the same expansion, meaning that this combo should show up fairly often when you're playing with Dark Ages.
• Also, thematically, you have to admit this is one of the coolest/wackiest combos to play. You have droves of hermits wandering around outside of town, gradually going mad. Meanwhile you spend all your efforts building the largest grandest market square in the world, and then, on opening day, all of those insane hermits rush into town and run amok... And somehow you end up filthy rich and reigning over a massive kingdom.  ;D


Weaknesses

• While this combo resists most attacks, Trashers (such as Knights or Saboteur) can destroy it, as you need a lot of the right cards to pull it off. Also, being hit by a hand-size reducer attack on the turn when you're ready to pull the trigger will stop it dead. If your opponent has built up an engine where he is Militia-ing you every turn it can be devastating.
• While you only need two types of cards, you need a LOT of those two cards. If your opponents are snatching them up as fast as you are it will sap a lot of the strength out of your deck (However, in my experience, Hermit and Market Square don't tend to be very popular, so unless another opponent is going after the same combo you're probably fine).
• It is a high-skill combo, demanding a lot of attention to detail, and also requires a lot of buying restraint. It can be really hard to fight the temptation to buy that really awesome $5 card when you get a lucky hand of coppers, but don't do it!

Works well with:
• Scheme: which will let you turn your hermits into madmen without having to trash them, and can be used to line up your Market Squares with Hermits. Also, at $3 it's perfectly priced for this combo.
• Haven: Great for lining up Market Squares with Hermits, and for lining up Madmen for your megaturn. Also, can possibly be used to increase your hand size so that you don't need as many Madmen when you pull the trigger. And again, $2 is a great price for this combo.
• Versus Cursers/Looters: all they do is give you fuel for your hermits and market squares to turn into gold.
• Other Cheap Trashers: can be substituted for Hermits during your megaturn if you weren't able to get as many as you wanted.
• Talisman: as an opener it can help you pick up components faster.


Sample Games:

(Unfortunately I haven't played on any of the computerized versions of Dominion, so I don't have any records of games I have played to show you. Several people have posted their games in the comments though.)

In solo play I was able to set it up and was ready to pull the trigger by turn 12, but didn't have any Madmen in my hand so I had to wait until turn 13. With 9 Hermits/Madmen and 9 Market Squares I ended up with over $70 to spend and 10 buys. Of course that would be the perfect situation, and not very likely in a real game.

I finally got a chance to try this against real opponents: it was a 3 player game, and I was able to snatch 9 Hermits and 5 Market Squares, and then I pulled the trigger around turn 12 (I lost track exactly) which was actually too early- I miscounted, and only had 5 madmen to my 4 Hermits (instead of 6-3) and the Kingdom wasn't to the point where I could immediately end the game, but it still worked beautifully. I ended up with $35 and 6 buys, netting me 4 provinces and several Estates from my Hermits. Over the next several turns I was able to use all that gold to grab 2 more provinces and empty the estate pile to end the game well in the lead.)


Edit: Thanks again everyone for all your input! And Thanks to the Dominion Strategy Gods for deciding to feature this article on the main page. It makes me feel special.  :D

Added Haven to the "Works well with" section, and fixed Scheme. It turns out Scheme does NOT work for lining up Madmen.  :o

I would still love to see some sample games that show mirror matches and/or attempts to block this combo while using another strategy. If you have any, please share!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 11:17:26 pm by Herowannabe »
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2013, 12:35:55 am »
+3

Great article! Small note: 2-cost Villages could really help here in the Hermit into Madman phase. More than one Hermit per turn played can be really nice, with all the Market Squares you'll be wanting.
Also, Spice Merchant would excell as an opener here.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2013, 08:09:37 am »
0

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130206/log.505c56d8a2e6c78ad2ed5a68.1360155944310.txt

Here's my first try.  I beat Lord Bottington with a T19 megaturn (60 coins and ~9 buys).

One thing to note is that I got pummeled hard by Militias.  Three card hands mean I'm left with 1 Hermit and 2 Coppers too often, and I started buying Copper to avoid trashing the Hermit.  As I write this up, I realize I should have instead discard Hermit to the Militia and just kept a hand of 3 Copper for buying Market Square.  Still, Militia slows you down a ton buy preventing you from gaining two $3 cards per turn.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2013, 08:16:53 am »
0

Smoother, no attack game:  http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130206/log.505c56d8a2e6c78ad2ed5a68.1360156513206.txt

Versus a curser.  There was only a single Gold left in the supply after my 94 coin megaturn: http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130206/log.505c56d8a2e6c78ad2ed5a68.1360167918059.txt
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 11:27:01 am by SirPeebles »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2013, 08:23:03 am »
0

Lastly as a comment to the original post, you really don't need to empty the Market Square pile.  In the second game I posted, I only gained 6 Market Squares before pulling the trigger, and was able to pick up the last 5 Provinces plus 3 Duchies.  It seems prudent to leave a few Market Squares since you can gain them with your Hermit during the megaturn.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2013, 08:58:47 am »
+3

Great article! Small note: 2-cost Villages could really help here in the Hermit into Madman phase. More than one Hermit per turn played can be really nice, with all the Market Squares you'll be wanting.
Also, Spice Merchant would excell as an opener here.

After some further thought, Spice Merchant would not be so great.  You don't want to trash much of your initial Copper since in your megaturn, you will need a hefty hand size to pick up the pile of Market Squares and Gold.

Let's consider this idealized case.  You grab nothing but Hermits and Market Squares.  Along the way you trash 2 of the 3 initial Estates.  This leaves us with a deck of 7 Copper, 1 Estate, 3 Hermits, 6 Madmen, and some variable M Market Squares.  This keeps us under 30 cards, so 3 Madmen will draw the full deck, leaving us with a hand of 7+1+3+3+M = 14 + M cards.  Now we play a Hermit, trashing an Estate, gaining some card, and discarding all M Market Squares and gaining M Golds.  This leaves us with 12 cards in hand and 2M+1 cards in the discard.  Now we play a Madman, bringing us down to 11 cards in hand and thus drawing 11 card.  So we will draw the entire discard if we had no more than 5 Market Squares.

If we'd trashed away Coppers, we wouldn't be drawing the discard pile.  The Copper doesn't get in the way during the megaturn. The Copper is also useful during the building phase, since Hermit+3 Coppers means you'll gain two key cards rather than only one. Really the only place that the Copper hurts at all is in trying to line up Madmen to safely trigger the megaturn.  But I don't think this is such a serious issue, and certainly not worth trashing Copper over.  After all, if that Spice Merchant purchase had been a Hermit purchase, you might already be a turn ahead.
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AdamH

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2013, 03:05:06 pm »
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Upon first glance, this appears much better than this thing I came up with. I should try this.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2013, 02:24:36 am »
0

This is crazy awesome! I will have to try it out against the bots first and see what happens. But, sounds good on paper.

EDIT: Okay, I just tried this. Works very well. I think it is easier to pull off than NV/Bridge most of the time because of Hermits ability to kill curses easily. This combo is pretty fun actually.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 04:08:01 am by Beyond Awesome »
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2013, 04:52:28 am »
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Great stuff. It's always kinda awesome when new megaturn combos turn up, and this is definately a nice example.

Mirror matches are probably really interesting and tense.
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Qualdrion

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2013, 07:23:46 am »
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I'm not sure about that - In a mirror match both will only get like 5 hermits which means you will only get one round of golds when you pull the trigger, so you would only get like 5-6 of them depending on the number of market squares. And you probably wouldn't have enough buys to end the game easily without getting even more buys at that point.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2013, 07:53:40 am »
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I'm not sure about that - In a mirror match both will only get like 5 hermits which means you will only get one round of golds when you pull the trigger, so you would only get like 5-6 of them depending on the number of market squares. And you probably wouldn't have enough buys to end the game easily without getting even more buys at that point.

But your opponent is in the same boat.  So as with many mirrors, you need to look for support.  You'll have time to stray since your opponent can't trigger a landslide either.  It's a mirror, so the first goal is to win that Hermit split.  Say you win it 6-4. 

Now, rather than spending 3 Madmen to draw your whole deck, let's try to make do with only 2.  This will allow you to bring 2 Hermits and 4 Madmen to the megaturn.  Now, 2 Madmen will draw you a 14 card hand usually, which is not enough.  If you can use supporting cards to get up to a 6 card hand first, then 2 Madmen will draw you an 18 card hand.  If you can manage a 7 card starting hand, say from a Wharf played the previous hand, then 2 Madmen will draw you a 22 card hand -- pretty close to the 26 card hand that 3 standard Madmen would bring in.  Even better than Wharf, triggering during a Tactician hand will net you 34 cards!

Alternatively, if there is a trasher on the board aside from Hermit, then we can dump all of our Hermits for Madmen.  This could even be an instance when you would want to buy multiple Chapels.  If you win the Hermit split 6-4, turn all 6 into Madmen, and spend a few measly $2 buys on Chapels, then you're good to go.  Other cheap trashers like Masq, Steward, and Forager could all work.  Even a self trasher like Embargo will trigger the Market Square, although Embargo often kills combos.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2013, 09:22:07 am »
+5

This combo is also nice because once you have your megaturn, your deck is full of Gold and +Buy, so if the game isn't over (which it probably will be), you still have a great position.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 09:49:44 am »
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Very nice article! Its interesting that these combo pieces work well together even without the mega-turn. I imagine depending on the board, it would be good to snag an early gold to help pick up other support cards. You'd have to be cautious of course, as chaining madmen is key. In a mirror with a 5/5 split of each component, I would imagine you'd want to hit the trigger earlyish -- as in all likelyhood every turn AFTER the combo will also produce a province, due to all those gold.
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loppo

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2013, 04:38:38 pm »
+1

this is very a impressive combo. the log below shows a game where i pull the trigger on turn 12 for 8 provinces. Playing with shelters helps this combo. Necropolis helps you play two Hermits for two Market square and two madmen.

For a piledrive on provinces you need 19 Golds + 7 coppers for exactly 64 coins. if you pull the trigger with 5 Market Squares, you can gain MS 6+7+8 while you go off. this gives you 5+6+7=18 golds, so you need to get at least 1 gold before that turn.

In my example i had to trash a Market Square during the megaturn, because i had only 2 extra cards in my deck, so i got only 17 golds, but i had got 2 golds on hermit trashes beforehand. So take good care of your starting estates/shelters.

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130207/log.50955175e4b013548a3d58f0.1360271535775.txt

Stopping this combo seems rather difficult. In the sample game there was Minion, who does usually a good job in disrupting combos, but Minion does not slow down the combo. So the only defense might actually be to deny combo pieces.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2013, 05:07:39 pm »
0

this is very a impressive combo. the log below shows a game where i pull the trigger on turn 12 for 8 provinces. Playing with shelters helps this combo. Necropolis helps you play two Hermits for two Market square and two madmen.

For a piledrive on provinces you need 19 Golds + 7 coppers for exactly 64 coins. if you pull the trigger with 5 Market Squares, you can gain MS 6+7+8 while you go off. this gives you 5+6+7=18 golds, so you need to get at least 1 gold before that turn.

In my example i had to trash a Market Square during the megaturn, because i had only 2 extra cards in my deck, so i got only 17 golds, but i had got 2 golds on hermit trashes beforehand. So take good care of your starting estates/shelters.

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130207/log.50955175e4b013548a3d58f0.1360271535775.txt

Stopping this combo seems rather difficult. In the sample game there was Minion, who does usually a good job in disrupting combos, but Minion does not slow down the combo. So the only defense might actually be to deny combo pieces.

Minion wasn't played as an attack before your megaturn though.  If you are forced into a 4 card hand every turn, it should hurt your madman draw a fair amount.  I don't want to number crunch it though.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2013, 05:09:52 pm »
0

An engine that can play a handsize attack consistently should be a solid counter.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2013, 05:32:39 pm »
+2

A couple of other useful card interactions:
1. A Tactician can be really helpful. Those first two Madmen barely give you a larger hand than you start with a Tac. Splitting the Hermits 5/5 isn't a killer if you can start off with a big hand. Bonus - you don't need to buy the Tac until reasonably late in the setup (of course hitting 5 can be a bit of challenge, but you do trash the starting estates for golds on occassion).
2. In like manner, Haven can be awesome at letting you start off the megaturn with a bigger hand. It also works extremely well with timing Hermit trashing thanks to its cost and stockpiling Madmen for the final turn.
3. This gets just insane with a Bank or two in play (able to wipe out colonies in a single shot).
4. Ironworks is good for stockpiling Hermits and Market Squares, but also for useful 4 coin cards - like Caravan or Feodum.
5. Saboteur is actually quite strong against this deck. You don't buy silver and the only cards in your deck worth 3 or more are Hermits and Market Squares, both of which you absolutely need in quantity to work. Every play of Sab will destroy a component card and delay your megaturn, often by a whole turn, and may kill enough Hermits to stop the deck cold. I'd far prefer Sab to most of the Knights.
6. Cutpurse and B-crat can both nerf the megaturn. Starting at 3 or 4 cards is a lot worse than 5; B-crat has the added shot of reducing the odds that you will chain draw Madmen; either can buy you a turn or two more to hit your own mega combo (e.g. Kc/Bridge).
7. Possession just destroys this and leaves you to weep.
8. Beggar is a good helper card. It costs an action, but it gives you +2 cards in hand and gives you 3 coin. At 2 coin it doesn't conflict with Hermit or Mrksqr purchasing; the silver may or may not be useful.
9. Nv is another good card for pulling this off with contest Hermits. A 2 cost card that: is a village, it lets you stockpile cards for a BIG starting block of cards (even with say Ghost ship hitting every turn), and you can "thin" your deck before the the megaturn to ensure high Madmen concentration. The only downside is that Hermits can get trapped on the mat that you really want to turn into Madmen.
10. Coppersmith is basically trades one action for one province.
11. Pirate ship/Thief can actually slow this down. This is one of the few cases where trashing your coppers is actively bad, if your total card count dips too low you may not be able to redraw all your Mrksqr's. Kc on either of the copper trashers can really ruin your day; with Pship it hurts hard. This can be somewhat offset by playing Mrksqr and just buying coppers.
12. I'm not sure about Outpost, yeah you really don't need big hands to do more than gain a Mrksqr or trash a Hermit. I think an opportunistic buy of Outpost can let you setup a lot faster (and maybe let you poach a prov/duchy after your megaturn).

The hand size increasing durations just beg to play with this if the Hermits get contested. They can even swamp nasty stuff like perpetual Gshipping.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2013, 05:41:28 pm »
+1

Another combo of the same vein that really works well is Hermit/Madman and Bridge. I tried it and it works. It is a couple turns slower than this combo, but still pretty fast.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2013, 05:51:23 pm »
0

Given how valuable Hermits will be in a mirror, it may also be worth mentioning Scheme, since it let's you gain a Madman without losing your Hermits, and you can gain them with Hermits.  Grave robber and Rogue let you recover Hermits, but it doesn't look like you'll hit $5 often.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2013, 12:52:42 am »
0

I think Rouge is best here for mirror matchups. The attack can be pretty annoying to your opponent, and the cash can help for a Hermit-free hand. Plus its a decent gainer.
Also, would it waste too much time if you picked up maybe one Village here? With all the Hermits and potentialy a Graverobber/Rouge you'll be picking up, it might help some.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2013, 01:53:50 am »
0

The problem about Rogue is that it's slow. You have to buy it with $5, then gain a Hermit from the trash, just to be able to play it again. Meanwhile your opponent has probably gathered more combo components and rushed for the (maybe not perfect, but sufficient) megaturn.

Scheme could be more viable since you can just pick it up with Hermit along the way.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2013, 04:37:34 pm »
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I agree. Rogue is very slow.
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TWoos

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2013, 05:23:09 pm »
0

Just tried this, and by pure chance, ended up with Graverobber in the kingdom.  So I picked up Hermit two extra times, and pulled the trigger on turn 16 with 7 Madmen and 4 Hermits.  I won the Market Square split 6-4, but that meant I could only buy 7 Provinces.

However, I was intentionally playing against a weak A.I., so I don't know how well this might work against a real opponent.


EDIT:  Oh, and I forgot to mention the wacky opening.  I had a 3/5, due to my opponent's Noble Brigand attacking, so I actually opened Hermit/Graverobber.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 05:29:25 pm by TWoos »
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Herowannabe

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2013, 05:45:33 pm »
0

In a mirror with a 5/5 split of each component, I would imagine you'd want to hit the trigger earlyish -- as in all likelyhood every turn AFTER the combo will also produce a province, due to all those gold.

Actually in a 5/5 split you might be better off waiting and pulling the trigger second. If you pull the trigger as soon as you can, say with no golds in your deck beforehand, you'll end up with 7c + 5g = $22. Not much of a mega turn- only two provinces and a duchy/gold. Say you managed to pick up two golds before hand, it's still only $28 for 3 provinces and a couple estates.

Rather I would suggest pulling the trigger second, which gives you control over when the game ends. In the situation of a 5/5 split I think I would try to avoid trashing my hermits into madmen until I had picked up most/all of my share of the market squares. Then as you trash you can gain multiple golds. If you can pick up at least 6 golds before pulling the trigger it will net you 11g + 7c = $40, enough to pick up 5 provinces. If your opponent went before you and only managed to grab 3 provinces then you just won the game.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2013, 05:57:02 pm »
0

Just tried this, and by pure chance, ended up with Graverobber in the kingdom.  So I picked up Hermit two extra times, and pulled the trigger on turn 16 with 7 Madmen and 4 Hermits.  I won the Market Square split 6-4, but that meant I could only buy 7 Provinces.

However, I was intentionally playing against a weak A.I., so I don't know how well this might work against a real opponent.


EDIT:  Oh, and I forgot to mention the wacky opening.  I had a 3/5, due to my opponent's Noble Brigand attacking, so I actually opened Hermit/Graverobber.

In the non-mirror match, I think Graverobber may have slowed you down. In the 2 times I tried this (once against a curser), the game ended before turn 16.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2013, 06:43:40 pm »
0

In response to several people's comments:

I edited the article and mentioned a few of the other cards that work well with the combo, however I didn't add too many. The beautiful thing about this combo is that unlike most others it's completely self reliant: it doesn't need any outside help to make it work. So any other cards you pick up delays getting a necessary component by a turn.

Also, I'm skeptical that any cards costing more than $3 will realistically be helpful. As you start picking up all those hermits it becomes increasingly unlikely that you'll ever have more than $3 to spend- at least not until you're ready to pull the trigger.

That being said, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Band of Misfits: in a pinch they could be used as substitute Hermits or Market Squares if either is in short supply. Although I suppose that wouldn't work if either pile emptied out...
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2013, 06:48:29 pm »
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First, I would hope to be able to trigger the market squares more than once (ideally another trasher is on the board and it should be possible to get 4-5 madmen), which would give about ~10 gold. If you manage to get 11, this gives you enough for 5 provinces. With your opponent having only 6 buys, there is no way they will catch you in a single mega-turn. So this is your goal, and I wouldn't do it by buying gold beforehand unless that was the only way.

In your example, if your opponent gets 3 provinces, how long is it going to take you to get 6 gold? Are you assuming they are doing nothing in this time? If they buy two more provinces in that time, you are out of luck again.

In a mirror with a 5/5 split of each component, I would imagine you'd want to hit the trigger earlyish -- as in all likelyhood every turn AFTER the combo will also produce a province, due to all those gold.

Actually in a 5/5 split you might be better off waiting and pulling the trigger second. If you pull the trigger as soon as you can, say with no golds in your deck beforehand, you'll end up with 7c + 5g = $22. Not much of a mega turn- only two provinces and a duchy/gold. Say you managed to pick up two golds before hand, it's still only $28 for 3 provinces and a couple estates.

Rather I would suggest pulling the trigger second, which gives you control over when the game ends. In the situation of a 5/5 split I think I would try to avoid trashing my hermits into madmen until I had picked up most/all of my share of the market squares. Then as you trash you can gain multiple golds. If you can pick up at least 6 golds before pulling the trigger it will net you 11g + 7c = $40, enough to pick up 5 provinces. If your opponent went before you and only managed to grab 3 provinces then you just won the game.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2013, 08:06:17 pm »
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That being said, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Band of Misfits: in a pinch they could be used as substitute Hermits or Market Squares if either is in short supply. Although I suppose that wouldn't work if either pile emptied out...

BoM is on the expensive side though, and while you can use it to get cantrip +Buy by copying Market Square, you cannot emulate the MS reaction which is critical for the megaturn.

There is also a bigger danger in that BoM cannot copy a card that has run out.  Hermit is expected to run out, and Market Square may very well run as well.  Then BoM can be neither of those!
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2013, 08:21:41 pm »
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Has anyone ever examined the mirror match? I feel that at a 5/5 split of the Hermits (and I suppose Market Squares) results in either insufficient trashing (if you trash Hermits somewhat early for Madmen) or insufficient draw (if you don't trash all of your Hermits and/or can't draw a second Madman after the first). Not only that, but you don't have enough buys to empty out a third pile with 5 MSs and your engine is dead after it fires once.

It's the same thing that happens in NV-Bridge mirrors, except NV-Bridge can usually grab a couple of other cheap cards along the way whereas this is much less able at doing so.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 08:22:52 pm by dondon151 »
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2013, 08:30:37 pm »
0

Rouge is slow, but I think it is better than Graverobber at least. And I think that having $5 is very unlikely, seeing as the only cash you have is coppers. Although BoM would be a good pickup on a 5/2 split.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2013, 08:33:05 pm »
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I'd definitely say pull the trigger first in a mirror.  At worst, you'll buy 2 or 3 provinces, and then have a deck full of gold.  Not too shabby, I'd say.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2013, 08:38:19 pm »
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That would be about six or seven Gold which is nice, yes, but you have to be open to the fact that your opponent can squeeze a win after you buy your fourth Province by puling the trigger on his more built deck.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2013, 09:29:37 pm »
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I think this is likely to happen if there is no other (preferably non-terminal) draw on the board, and no other trashers. On many boards though, there will be alternate trashers, meaning up to 5 madmen, which is plenty. Also I could imagine some boards where extra draw would be critical. Particularly wharf/tactician/caravan, or perhaps village/smithy. Obviously with more expensive components you would have to play this differently, and it might be tricky to balance economy with racing for the key combo components.

I wish this was on isotropic, I'd love to test it out. Maybe its time for me to check out Goku again, see if its  more playable now.

Has anyone ever examined the mirror match? I feel that at a 5/5 split of the Hermits (and I suppose Market Squares) results in either insufficient trashing (if you trash Hermits somewhat early for Madmen) or insufficient draw (if you don't trash all of your Hermits and/or can't draw a second Madman after the first). Not only that, but you don't have enough buys to empty out a third pile with 5 MSs and your engine is dead after it fires once.

It's the same thing that happens in NV-Bridge mirrors, except NV-Bridge can usually grab a couple of other cheap cards along the way whereas this is much less able at doing so.
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TWoos

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2013, 11:48:14 am »
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Rouge is slow, but I think it is better than Graverobber at least.

I don't think I understand why Rogue is better than Graverobber.  They both cost $5, they both take a card from the trash costing from $3 to $6.  Graverobber additionally places it on top of your deck.

Isn't that a good thing?

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2013, 12:09:15 pm »
+2

In response to several people's comments:

I edited the article and mentioned a few of the other cards that work well with the combo, however I didn't add too many. The beautiful thing about this combo is that unlike most others it's completely self reliant: it doesn't need any outside help to make it work. So any other cards you pick up delays getting a necessary component by a turn.

Also, I'm skeptical that any cards costing more than $3 will realistically be helpful. As you start picking up all those hermits it becomes increasingly unlikely that you'll ever have more than $3 to spend- at least not until you're ready to pull the trigger.

That being said, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Band of Misfits: in a pinch they could be used as substitute Hermits or Market Squares if either is in short supply. Although I suppose that wouldn't work if either pile emptied out...

The combo is rock solid if the Hermits are uncontested, but I haven't seen any games with contested Hermits out here. And Hermit/Madman is a very contestable card.

Let's say you split the Hermits 4/6, because hey that's what WILL most likely happen if Hermits are the most contested card and you go second. That gives you 4 Madmen. Okay play 2 of those to draw up to 14 cards in hand, you have 7 coppers from your start and let's spot you 4 Market squares, two trashers and an estate to trash. This means you can gain 4 gold by trashing a card, this however reduces your hand by 6 cards (4 Mrksqr, 1 Trasher, 1 Trashed card), playing a Madman will only draw you 7 cards (you had 8 in your discard). Trashing a Mrksqr will most likely get you 3 more golds and drop you down to 9 cards. You now have 9 cards in discard and draw 8 with your last Madman. You draw the rest with your Mrksqr's and so you end up with 6-7 gold or ~28 coin. Now that's a nice solid 3 provinces and maybe a duchy ... but that isn't game winning ... even buying a province next turn won't seal it for you - Madman is too good an enabling megaturns (Bridge, Horn of plenty, Highway, Governor, Coppersmith, Bank, Beggar, Vault/Secret chamber/Storeroom, Goons, etc.) which is likely what contested

Now let's be sneaky and add two cards to the above: a Coppersmith and a haven. With the haven you start with 6 cards, you gain get to 18 cards (9 copper, two trashers, 4 Mrksqr, Coppersmith, and two estates to trash) with two Madmen played. You trash a card and discard 4 Mrksqr, dropping to 12 cards in hand and having 8 cards in discard. You play a Madman, drawing all your cards, trash your other estate and draw all your cards. You play the Csmith. That gives you 8 gold and effectively 9 silver for 42 coin, enough for 5 provinces or 4 provinces and 2 duchies.

Yeah you'd do better with a 5th Mrksqr over the Csmith here, but I'd trying to keep parity here. You also can do much better with a second Csmith.

Likewise, as you've noted discard attacks hurt viciously and about 1/3rd of Madman/Mrksqr games will have a discard attack. A decent percentage of games will have no other trashers so even in a 6/4 split you will have to make do with only 4 Madmen draws. Then of course there are colony boards in contested Madmen games. There just are a LOT of times where you won't be able to get enough Hermits to build the full combo and lockdown the game. Enter all the other cards mentioned. Haven gives you MASSIVELY more flexibility and it is not like with all the Hermits/Madman/junk to trash in your deck you won't hit a few 2 coin hands and waiting for 6 or 7 card starting hand can be worth it. Tac can massively drop your needed Madman count or increase your payout, or let you play the combo even when being Militia'd every turn.

Yeah if the other guy doesn't go for Madmen, then buy very little costing more than 2 outside the combo. If he does, then you need to offer some strategy in your article other than "well you mostly likely lose if you go second and the other guy isn't ignorant".

Twoos: 2 Cash will often be very important for hitting 3 coin when your have colliding Hermit/Rogue & dead Madmen you do not yet want to play. With no additional treasure in deck, you have to hit 3 coin from 4 cards using only coppers with Graverobber, Rogue just needs 1 in 4 cards to be a copper. So Graverobber gains you a Hermit to deck top, Rogue let's gain a Hermit and more likely buy one as well. Lastly, near the megaturn you actually don't want the Hermit on deck top, you want more odds for Madmen so you can go off sooner. Graverobber does have the bonus of being able to trash actions ... but so does Hermit and the point of either trash diving card is to have plenty of Hermits when you fire off the megaturn.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2013, 06:27:36 pm »
0

Rouge is slow, but I think it is better than Graverobber at least.

I don't think I understand why Rogue is better than Graverobber.  They both cost $5, they both take a card from the trash costing from $3 to $6.  Graverobber additionally places it on top of your deck.

Isn't that a good thing?
Rogue gives cash, and has the attack for early on. Also, if there are no Hermits in the trash yet, it still has a decent effect.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 09:57:50 pm by Morgrim7 »
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2013, 06:45:30 pm »
+5

Rouge is slow, but I think it is better than Graverobber at least.

I don't think I understand why Rogue is better than Graverobber.  They both cost $5, they both take a card from the trash costing from $3 to $6.  Graverobber additionally places it on top of your deck.

Isn't that a good thing?
Rouge gives cash, and has the attack for early on. Also, if there are no Hermits in the trash yet, it still has a decent effect.

It's Rogue. Rogue. Like the X-men character, not the Moulin. I have no idea why I'm so irrationally unnerved by this.

dondon151

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2013, 07:04:36 pm »
0

That is also a pet peeve of mine. Right behind "could care less."
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2013, 07:27:09 pm »
+4

Rouge gives cash.

This is the statement that worries me the most :o
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2013, 09:55:51 pm »
0

Rouge gives cash.

This is the statement that worries me the most :o
Heh. +1. 
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2013, 03:39:20 am »
+3

Rouge gives cash.

This is the statement that worries me the most :o
Heh. +1.

Scumbag Morgrim says +1 but doesn't actually +1. ;)
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2013, 06:13:18 am »
0

+1  ;)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 06:14:26 am by Morgrim7 »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2013, 07:27:17 pm »
0

In the works well with, you mention that Scheme helps you line up Madmen.  How do you mean?  It doesn't in the straightforward way (topdecking your Madman) since Madman is returned to the Supply when returned.

A benefit of Scheme not mentioned is that it is perfect Hermit fodder in the mega turn.  If you pick up a Scheme or three, then trash away all of your Estates and gain Market Squares for reaction during the mega turn, because you can trash away the Schemes to trigger the Market Squares.

Edit:  While Scheme doesn't help line up Madmen, Haven does.  Haven is also cheap.  Even if you don't have a Madman in hand, using Haven increases the handsize for your next turn, increasing your likelihood to draw additional Madmen.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 07:41:49 pm by SirPeebles »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2013, 07:38:28 pm »
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As Band of Misfits, it could potentially be a nice buy with a 5/2 opening, although I would be sure to trash it away for a Madman before the Hermits run out.  On the other hand, I'm a bit skeptical of going for this strategy with a 5/2 opening since you're practically doomed to lose the split versus 4/3.  On the other hand, Tactician/Haven could be a powerful opening that would get by with fewer Madmen.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2013, 11:06:56 pm »
0

In the works well with, you mention that Scheme helps you line up Madmen.  How do you mean?  It doesn't in the straightforward way (topdecking your Madman) since Madman is returned to the Supply when returned.

A benefit of Scheme not mentioned is that it is perfect Hermit fodder in the mega turn.  If you pick up a Scheme or three, then trash away all of your Estates and gain Market Squares for reaction during the mega turn, because you can trash away the Schemes to trigger the Market Squares.

Edit:  While Scheme doesn't help line up Madmen, Haven does.  Haven is also cheap.  Even if you don't have a Madman in hand, using Haven increases the handsize for your next turn, increasing your likelihood to draw additional Madmen.

Sorry, I didn't think that through at the time, and realized shortly after that schemes do NOT work well with Madmen... My bad. Fixing it now.

Good point about Haven, adding that to the article.

Yeah if the other guy doesn't go for Madmen, then buy very little costing more than 2 outside the combo. If he does, then you need to offer some strategy in your article other than "well you mostly likely lose if you go second and the other guy isn't ignorant".

I totally agree. However, I haven't posted anything in the article because to be blunt I haven't yet seen any mirror matches play out. I have no clue what the best strategy in a mirror match would actually be. I would love to see some though, so if anyone has any sample games dealing with a Madman race, please share!  ;)

Also kudos to you for pointing out Haven synergies.  ;D
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crazyrunnerguy

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2013, 02:17:51 pm »
0

Quote
I want to preface this by saying that this is probably a combo for advanced players. It requires a careful balance, a knowledge of exactly what's in your deck, as well precise timing to pull off correctly, without which your deck could easily flop.
Great article and a really impressive combo - on par with the impressive and intimidating nature of mega strategies (KC/KC/Bridge x3) or Scrying Pool-enabled engines - these are the key phrases to understanding this combo. The combo is a melting of mega-turn with an engine, and that's what to me makes it a very high-level combo. I haven't played Dark Ages but I had to read through the cards several times before I feel like I scratched the surface of how these cards interact and how to properly play them to make this combo go boom. It feels most like Native Village/Bridge, where on your megaturn, you Native Village to draw/set aside all but your last NV on your mega (to continue setting aside cards, and pick them up with the last NV and lather, rinse, repeat until all NV's have been played) and then play all of your Bridges and you know how it ends.

As for how to kill it, I agree that a constant discard attack (Torturer may be the most effective because it can act as a junker, too, but the hand-size increasing nature of the curse-in-hand may negatively affect the Torturer player because it increases the amount of cards drawn by Madman) or a good junker (Hag, Moutebank) may be the best way to slow it down subject to the notes in the article re: trashing curses. The problem is that the combo draws so many cards so quickly that even with three cards in hand (two of which are Madmen, or if you know you have at least one Madmen in next four cards if you play (i.e. if you have a small draw stack remaining)) that this is a difficult combo to beat.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 02:21:33 pm by crazyrunnerguy »
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2013, 07:05:34 pm »
0

Quote
I want to preface this by saying that this is probably a combo for advanced players. It requires a careful balance, a knowledge of exactly what's in your deck, as well precise timing to pull off correctly, without which your deck could easily flop.
Great article and a really impressive combo - on par with the impressive and intimidating nature of mega strategies (KC/KC/Bridge x3) or Scrying Pool-enabled engines - these are the key phrases to understanding this combo. The combo is a melting of mega-turn with an engine, and that's what to me makes it a very high-level combo. I haven't played Dark Ages but I had to read through the cards several times before I feel like I scratched the surface of how these cards interact and how to properly play them to make this combo go boom. It feels most like Native Village/Bridge, where on your megaturn, you Native Village to draw/set aside all but your last NV on your mega (to continue setting aside cards, and pick them up with the last NV and lather, rinse, repeat until all NV's have been played) and then play all of your Bridges and you know how it ends.

As for how to kill it, I agree that a constant discard attack (Torturer may be the most effective because it can act as a junker, too, but the hand-size increasing nature of the curse-in-hand may negatively affect the Torturer player because it increases the amount of cards drawn by Madman) or a good junker (Hag, Moutebank) may be the best way to slow it down subject to the notes in the article re: trashing curses. The problem is that the combo draws so many cards so quickly that even with three cards in hand (two of which are Madmen, or if you know you have at least one Madmen in next four cards if you play (i.e. if you have a small draw stack remaining)) that this is a difficult combo to beat.

In my experience junking attacks are too slow, given that the Hermits can trash them even from the discard pile or hand, meaning that you can often trash the Curse before it's even shuffled into your deck unless it comes from a Sea Hag.  Sea Hag still doesn't slow you down enough, or more importantly does build your opponent's deck quickly enough to compete against this megaturn strategy (Sea Hag really relies on sacrificing your own speed to slow your opponent even more).

Now, things may be different if you're underfire from multiple junkers per turn, such as from a strong engine, a Cultist chain, or just a multiplayer game with standard junking.

I don't really see this as an engine / megaturn mix either.  Seems to be squarely a megaturn combo.  The reason it was considered for advanced players is because you need to keep track of your deck composition rather carefully, and especially need to watch out for going over 29 cards unless you have a plan.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2013, 04:58:11 pm »
+3

I did it! Took me 14 turns, but by then it was overkill, I could have pulled the trigger earlier.

This is one of the all time great combos. On the board I played, there was no interference, so I got to just sort of play my own game, paying zero attention to my opponent, who probably thought I was nuts. And then, boom!!! So great.

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130329/log.513116c8e4b08cb66ebe8f95.1364590505459.txt
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2013, 05:05:26 pm »
+1

yeah... I've done it irl and it's sweet...
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2013, 04:52:57 pm »
0

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130329/log.513116c8e4b08cb66ebe8f95.1364590505459.txt

Just want you to know that reading this log was a light-bulb-moment for me on how to play this properly. I started getting Madmen way too late and it was delaying when I pull the trigger. This combo is much more reliable the way you played it and I can't wait to try this IRL again. I've tried it twice, my opponents had no idea what I was doing, and I didn't get it off in time. They wondered why I randomly decided to just let them win that game.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2013, 05:50:39 pm »
0

I just managed to set off the Market squares twice in my last game, could have bought 8 Provinces.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2013, 07:23:08 am »
+3

Ok, after I played this combo the first time in the GokoDom I, I'm really interested in getting some in-depth look. Suppose there are no Attack cards in the kingdom, so you can play this combo safely. Just some thoughts how I think you should play:

1.) Denial Strategy
Let's assume other strong cards are on the board. How can you counter this? If you don't contest Hermits or Market Squares at all, you don't have to fear a 3-pile ending, but getting Provinces is really risky. If you don't get 5 Province until he triggers this combo, you're dead anyway and still he can get 3 Provinces and 5 Duchies and win, so you really need 6 Provinces in that time and most combos aren't that fast. So I don't think that's viable most of the times.

But I still think a denial strategy might be possible. You have to either contest the Hermits or the Market Squares. If Market Square is the only source of cheap +Buy contesting those could work out. If you can get 6-7 Market Squares really fast, this combo will have problems with only 4-5 Buys and not much Gold. Market Squares probably won't hurt your deck that much, but you still have to be careful not to lose too much speed. You probably need one Hermit yourself, but only to get a lot Market Squares and get some Gold with them while you keep building your engine.

Contesting the Hermits is probably the better option as you can't set the combo up without Hermit, but the cases when this works are probably still rare. Because when you pick up lots of Hermits - faster than your opponent - you're half on the way on setting this combo by yourself.

2.) Mirror Match
In a mirror match you all play for a mega turn. This means you want to end the game when you trigger this. But as none of you gets any points before that and Hermits and Market Square will run out, it's all about winning with one point and 3-pile. 3-piling Estates is the most obvious thing. If you have an even split, then you need 1 Hermit and 4 Madmen to trigger this which means that you have only 6 buys with 5 Market Squares. You could gain 1 Estate with that one Hermit that you can trash to trigger the Market Squares. Still you're one buy short. So if there's any source of +Buy you should really get it. It's not that important to have enough money as you only need $14 to 3-pile the estates. As long as you have at least 5 Hermits and enough buys you're safe.

Another possibility would be to trigger this earlier to get as many points and Gold as you can get. That's tricky because you probably won't have enough money for that. You will probably get 5 Golds only which means only $22 and 6 buys. If you focus on that you should try to get some Golds while setting this up and wait until you have enough for 4 Provinces which means 3 Golds and one Copper for $32. After you've bought 4 Provinces you could safely try to 3-pile the Estates afterwards.


Comments?

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2013, 03:16:27 pm »
+2

I think the best way to beat this combo is probably to start draining a third pile almost immediately, help drain the Hermits and Market Squares, and win narrowly off a few VP points or cards. I don't know if you could even possibly make Estates that third pile, in which case the you probably want to build up a bit with nice +buy and +$ cards, and then go all in... but you have to do this before Turn 12!

Another gainer--a Workshop or an Ironworks or something--might actually help you out. Of course Hermit is itself a gainer.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2013, 03:29:01 pm »
0

The times I've lost playing this combo, it was because of a quick 3-pile ending. Granted, it was also because I thought I shouldn't be getting Madmen until I was done gaining Hermits and Market Squares, but yeah...
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2013, 03:15:03 pm »
+2

In the works well with, you mention that Scheme helps you line up Madmen.  How do you mean?  It doesn't in the straightforward way (topdecking your Madman) since Madman is returned to the Supply when returned.

Just wanted to note that this mistake is still in the article on dominionstrategy.com, though it has been fixed in the version here in the forums.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2013, 04:15:03 pm »
0

Very nice combo!
I'd like to add a comment about the odd number od hermits. Herowanabe basicaly claims that you should have:
3+X madmen
X trashers (Hermits)
and that one aditional trasher is for nothing. I do not agree - one can exploit it one bit further with X+1 trashers.

Let's consider a model situation where you have 5 madmen, 3 hermits, 4 market squares, 7 coppers and 3 estates
Start by playing 3 madmen to take remaining cards in hand (as usual), then use the trick twice, while gaining market squares and you end up with hand consisting of 1 hermit, 6 market squares, 7 coppers, 9 golds and one estate (as usual + that one hermit)
And now you can trash the last estate (gain silver) discard 2 market sqares and safely draw the discard pile with remaining 4 market squares and you end up playing
all 7 market squares, 11 golds, 1 silver, 7 coppers to finally have $42 and 8 buys - enough to buy 5 provinces and an estate

so that one more madman was able to add $8 (2 golds+silver) for the fith province
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2013, 05:23:55 pm »
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Very nice combo!
I'd like to add a comment about the odd number od hermits. Herowanabe basicaly claims that you should have:
3+X madmen
X trashers (Hermits)
and that one aditional trasher is for nothing. I do not agree - one can exploit it one bit further with X+1 trashers.

Let's consider a model situation where you have 5 madmen, 3 hermits, 4 market squares, 7 coppers and 3 estates
Start by playing 3 madmen to take remaining cards in hand (as usual), then use the trick twice, while gaining market squares and you end up with hand consisting of 1 hermit, 6 market squares, 7 coppers, 9 golds and one estate (as usual + that one hermit)
And now you can trash the last estate (gain silver) discard 2 market sqares and safely draw the discard pile with remaining 4 market squares and you end up playing
all 7 market squares, 11 golds, 1 silver, 7 coppers to finally have $42 and 8 buys - enough to buy 5 provinces and an estate

so that one more madman was able to add $8 (2 golds+silver) for the fith province
I think you should probably turn the extra Hermit into a Madman. You don't need the fifth Province, but an extra Madman makes getting two in the same hand more likely to happen and the occasional fizzling despite having two Madmen in the starting 5 less likely to happen.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 05:25:02 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2013, 06:13:41 pm »
0

I think you should probably turn the extra Hermit into a Madman. You don't need the fifth Province, but an extra Madman makes getting two in the same hand more likely to happen and the occasional fizzling despite having two Madmen in the starting 5 less likely to happen.
Maybe - but i wanted to stress the other point - that having X+3 madmen and X+1 trashers is not a waste of that one trasher. That example I used was to explain how to implement it. But let us also consider this. Suppose that I have 5 madmen and 3 hermits and I plan to turn one more hermit into madman and suddenly two of my madmen collide; I think I should use the opportunity.

You can have simillar situation with 6 madmen, 4 foragers and 5 market squares. You can argue the It would be better to have one more market square instead of that forager, but maybe market squares were contested ...

Ok I have to admit that going with only 5 madmen is risky since there is a chance of not drawing your third madman when you start with hand with 2 of them. But such scenario was suggested by OP: 5 madmen + 2 hermit.
I'm just saying that if you can add one more, go ahead.

What I was not able to investigate during my tests is that when I skip that 8th hermit buy/gain will that make the combo kick in sooner or later?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 06:22:21 pm by Bron »
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2013, 07:52:55 pm »
0

Wow, first time I ever did this!  http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130612/log.5144ecf7e4b0bef57ec85b7d.1371081062619.txt

Didn't get as many Madmen as I would have liked, but I pulled the trigger anyway since I was afraid of 3 piling.  On turn 9!!
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2013, 06:36:32 am »
+1

So powerful if your opponent don't know what are you doing.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130721/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1374402766200.txt
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2013, 01:41:25 pm »
+1

I know I am really late to the party on commenting on this article, but I have to say, I think the article in the opening post is really well done because it is explicit about WHEN to pull the trigger and what pulling the trigger looks like.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2013, 03:20:12 pm »
0

So powerful if your opponent don't know what are you doing.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130721/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1374402766200.txt

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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

GendoIkari

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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2013, 02:49:57 pm »
0

I did this in real life once... 3 player game. I didn't really know what I was doing, I had read through some of this thread but didn't remember all the details.

Anyway, I pulled the trigger with 4 or 5 Madmen in my deck. It was delayed a few turns because of a discard attack that kept starting me with 3-card turns. Anyway, after I played 2 Madmen and a couple other things I had my whole deck, including lots of Market Squares. This is when I realized... I didn't have a single Squire left, nor any other card that could trash cards. So yeah.... :-[

Tried it again with my remaining Madmen, this time it worked pretty well, though by this time I wasn't sure that I would win if I bought out the remaining Provinces, I hadn't been tracking well and one of the other players had been buying up a bunch of Duchies to go with the Provinces. So I bought all but 1 Province and a bunch of Duchies instead. Game ended a couple turns later; I had a pretty big lead; could have won by ending it before.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2013, 01:08:25 pm »
0

Just learned about this combo today... pretty neat.

Tried it about half-a-dozen times on lord bottington, only lost once when I messed it up.

Excited to try it on real people sometime.  :)
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2013, 01:11:04 pm »
0

tried this IRL. It wasn't contested, so I just kept building it up. When I finally triggered it.....

there wasn't nearly enough gold in the gold pile for me :(

I won anyway though :)
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2013, 03:04:49 pm »
0

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #67 on: December 02, 2013, 03:37:37 pm »
0

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild

You're a monster. You want to practice with a pre-made kingdom? Practice against bots.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:39:18 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2013, 03:43:37 pm »
+2

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild

You're a monster. You want to practice with a pre-made kingdom? Practice against bots.

And this is why I don't play in casual mode...
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2013, 03:51:46 pm »
+2

And this is why I don't play in casual mode...

I on the other hand play almost exclusively casual and unrated games. I have a randomizer that makes sets with 5 cards from each of 2 expansions. I'd prefer casual and unrated games didn't lose this feature due people abusing it.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2013, 04:22:32 pm »
+6

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild

You're a monster. You want to practice with a pre-made kingdom? Practice against bots.

Goko allows partial card selection, right?  If you really want to practice this combo but not against bots, then include Hermit and Market Square but leave the rest of the kingdom random.  Then you can actually practice less than ideal kingdoms, learn to identify counters and adapt to such scenarios.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2013, 04:29:57 pm »
+1

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild

You're a monster. You want to practice with a pre-made kingdom? Practice against bots.

And this is why I don't play in casual mode...

Why? Are you afraid of being crushed and learning something?  ;)

Don't forget that you can always check the kingdom before joining a casual game.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2013, 04:44:26 pm »
+3

Been practicing on casual mode on Goko against unsuspecting opponents.  It has worked 3/3 times.  Here is my best attempt... $66 and 10 buys on turn 15.  ;D

I built this kingdom so that nothing impedes the combo but also with enough other enticing stuff that people might reasonably avoid Hermits and Market Squares.  If you want to practice, I recommend this kingdom.  So far none of my three opponents have gotten in my way at all :)

Pawn
Fishing Village
Hermit
Market Square
Baron
Mining Village
Salvager
Trader
Wandering Minstrel
Merchant Guild

You're a monster. You want to practice with a pre-made kingdom? Practice against bots.

And this is why I don't play in casual mode...

Why? Are you afraid of being crushed and learning something?  ;)

Don't forget that you can always check the kingdom before joining a casual game.

Because one of my favorite things about Dominion is that it's symmetric. Playing against someone who's been practicing a particular board breaks that.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2013, 04:48:23 pm »
0


Because one of my favorite things about Dominion is that it's symmetric. Playing against someone who's been practicing a particular board breaks that.

Good point. I agree with that.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2013, 05:24:04 pm »
+6

Because one of my favorite things about Dominion is that it's symmetric. Playing against someone who's been practicing a particular board breaks that.
By that logic, doesn't playing against Stef on any board break that as well?
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2013, 05:34:08 pm »
0

Because one of my favorite things about Dominion is that it's symmetric. Playing against someone who's been practicing a particular board breaks that.
By that logic, doesn't playing against Stef on any board break that as well?

This is why people wanted a decent automatch system.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #76 on: December 02, 2013, 06:29:14 pm »
0

It would be like rigging a deck to deal you a particular hand in Bridge or Spades, one that you've played/analyzed before.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #77 on: December 02, 2013, 07:59:14 pm »
0

Goko allows partial card selection, right?  If you really want to practice this combo but not against bots, then include Hermit and Market Square but leave the rest of the kingdom random.  Then you can actually practice less than ideal kingdoms, learn to identify counters and adapt to such scenarios.
Good advice. Just wanted to correct you: Goko doesn't allow any partial card selection. Either it's fully random or you specify the complete set. Partial card selection can only be done with the user extension.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #78 on: December 02, 2013, 09:04:09 pm »
+3

Last I checked, I thought you could just specify part of the board and leave it at that, and then it would randomize the rest when you started the game. So you could do partial selection that way. My internet right now sucks though so I can't check.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2013, 01:04:18 am »
0

Last I checked, I thought you could just specify part of the board and leave it at that, and then it would randomize the rest when you started the game. So you could do partial selection that way. My internet right now sucks though so I can't check.
You are completely right. I stand corrected, and sorry for the wrong "correction". I never knew that feature existed.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2014, 04:53:25 am »
+1

I've been meaning to post a response to thank you for documenting this combo.

I read it a couple months ago when I frankly was getting a little bored with Dominion both online and IRL.  This combo interested me so I tried it out a couple times.  Even though I slipped up first time I tried it against a bot, it still performed amazingly, and only took a couple extra turns to finish the game.  Mostly though, this combo just had me grinning from ear to ear.  It is such an elegant and powerful combination.  I don't think I have played a combo which is so much fun.  It restored my interest in the game, and gave me hope there were other combos and strategies I was still unaware of which could bring back the fun factor.

Thanks!!!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 03:21:39 pm by 7string »
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2014, 10:23:22 am »
+4

combos like this show the strength of the dominion game design.  There are no "infinite combos", but the simple design premise creates all sorts of unexpected "emergent properties" like this one.  yay.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2014, 10:33:14 am »
0

I've been meaning to post a response to thank you for documenting this combo.

I read it a couple months ago when I frankly was getting a little bored with Dominion both online and IRL.  This combo interested me so I tried it out a couple times.  Even though I slipped up first time I tried it against a bot, it still performed amazingly, and only took a couple extra turns to finish the game.  Mostly though, this combo just had me grinning from ear to ear.  It is such an elegant and powerful combination.  I don't think I have played a combo which is so much fun.  It restored my interest in the game, and gave me hope there were other combos and strategies I was still unaware of which could bring back the fun factor.

Thanks!!!

Wow, the dude who ragequit on me and accused me of ruining the game with boring, mechanical play when I used this combo did not seem to share that opinion.  :D I do understand the frustration, if you don't have prior knowledge of a certain combo and your opponent just plays it based on received wisdom, where they may not have stumbled upon that strategy without reading the Dominion literature. I suppose it's similar to MTG, where people complain about "net deckers."
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2014, 11:27:30 am »
0

No infinite combos? there are combos that are only limited by the size of the supply...
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2014, 11:33:22 am »
+1

No infinite combos? there are combos that are only limited by the size of the supply...

Your point?
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2014, 07:06:57 pm »
0

I can think of two infinite combos. Neither of them is particularly good, but both have theoretically unbound points-gaining capability (though admittedly not in a single turn, which is one reason why they're not great).
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2014, 07:15:13 pm »
0

I can think of two infinite combos. Neither of them is particularly good, but both have theoretically unbound points-gaining capability (though admittedly not in a single turn, which is one reason why they're not great).

Fortress-Bishop?  That one is pretty good.

Actually, now that I'm thinking of VP tokens, Monument in a good engine is another one, and you can even use Goons + Trader.  So I can think of three.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2014, 07:34:45 pm »
0

I would interpret an "infinite combo" to be one with an unending chain in a single turn.  More formally, that there is a game state where, given any positive number N, it is possible to play at least N cards before the end of your turn.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2014, 08:16:54 pm »
0

I would interpret an "infinite combo" to be one with an unending chain in a single turn.  More formally, that there is a game state where, given any positive number N, it is possible to play at least N cards before the end of your turn.

that's impossible though. the only card which can make a card be played more than 3 times in a turn is procession, and during every procession chain there must be played new processions, so that's finite, and after every procession chain the first procession remains in play, so the number of chains you can play is also finite.

or am i missing something?
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2014, 08:24:34 pm »
0

I would interpret an "infinite combo" to be one with an unending chain in a single turn.  More formally, that there is a game state where, given any positive number N, it is possible to play at least N cards before the end of your turn.

that's impossible though. the only card which can make a card be played more than 3 times in a turn is procession, and during every procession chain there must be played new processions, so that's finite, and after every procession chain the first procession remains in play, so the number of chains you can play is also finite.

or am i missing something?

You aren't missing anything.  The original claim was that infinite combos do not exist in Dominion.

There are combos which are bounded only by the size of the Supply.  For example, the combo in my first ever topic at f.ds.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2014, 08:29:08 pm »
0

I would interpret an "infinite combo" to be one with an unending chain in a single turn.  More formally, that there is a game state where, given any positive number N, it is possible to play at least N cards before the end of your turn.

that's impossible though. the only card which can make a card be played more than 3 times in a turn is procession, and during every procession chain there must be played new processions, so that's finite, and after every procession chain the first procession remains in play, so the number of chains you can play is also finite.

or am i missing something?

By using Procession and Graverobber/Rogue, you can potentially play any action card more than 3 times in a turn.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2014, 09:43:06 pm »
0

There are combos which are bounded only by the size of the Supply.  For example, the combo in my first ever topic at f.ds.
There's procession-procession-fortress with watchtower in hand and catacombs in the kingdom, and also something similar with develop instead of procession. I can't think of any others.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2014, 11:44:55 pm »
0

I can think of two infinite combos. Neither of them is particularly good, but both have theoretically unbound points-gaining capability (though admittedly not in a single turn, which is one reason why they're not great).

Fortress-Bishop?  That one is pretty good.

Actually, now that I'm thinking of VP tokens, Monument in a good engine is another one, and you can even use Goons + Trader.  So I can think of three.
Yes, actually those are perfectly good ones. The two I thought of were Bishop+Village+Graverobber/Rogue and Goons+Trader(+Watchtower if it needs speeding up). But the broad point being that there are a handful of combos that can each, once they get going, generate VP every turn without otherwise affecting the game state. I do, however, concede that I can't think of any combos that play out in a single turn to generate an unlimited number of VP in that turn - I think that it would be possible if Procession trashed the Action card before playing it twice, but otherwise you need a way to be able to chain the same two Processions endlessly and I don't see a way to do that.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2014, 03:08:32 am »
0

I think that it would be possible if Procession trashed the Action card before playing it twice, but otherwise you need a way to be able to chain the same two Processions endlessly and I don't see a way to do that.
To get around the fact that the action is played twice before being trashed, you just need extra copies of the desired action(s) in the desired place, probably the trash.  Procession on Rogue could pull a Procession and Rogue out of the trash if they're already there.  Unfortunately that's trashing two cards and returning two cards, and you still need a way to draw and play the cards you returned.  If there was a triple version of Procession (as KC to Throne Room), that would do the trick, but that's probably why such a card doesn't exist :) 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 03:11:06 am by theblankman »
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #94 on: April 25, 2014, 06:07:12 pm »
+1

the only card which can make a card be played more than 3 times in a turn is procession
This isn't quite true. Self-trashing cards costing $3+ can be played more than 3 times in a turn without use of procession: Feast, Mining Village, Pillage. (Did I forget any?) That doesn't help though.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2014, 07:36:38 pm »
0

Self-trashing cards costing $3+ can be played more than 3 times in a turn without use of procession: Feast, Mining Village, Pillage. (Did I forget any?)

Death Cart

edit:  Also Urchin.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 07:37:52 pm by SirPeebles »
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2014, 11:11:11 pm »
0

Self-trashing cards costing $3+ can be played more than 3 times in a turn without use of procession: Feast, Mining Village, Pillage. (Did I forget any?)

Death Cart

edit:  Also Urchin.

Also Counterfeit + Black Market gives all $3+ treasures. HOP Black Market doesn't need Counterfeit.
Also Knights. Madman. Spoils. Band of Misfits. I think that's it.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 04:56:21 pm by heron »
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2014, 03:07:02 am »
0

How are you planning to gain Madmen mid-turn?
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2014, 11:31:11 am »
0

How are you planning to gain Madmen mid-turn?

Can you gain them with Black Market? I genuinely don't know...
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2014, 11:32:51 am »
0

How are you planning to gain Madmen mid-turn?

Can you gain them with Black Market? I genuinely don't know...
You can gain them when and only when you discard a Hermit from play.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2014, 03:13:04 pm »
0

the only card which can make a card be played more than 3 times in a turn is procession
This isn't quite true. Self-trashing cards costing $3+ can be played more than 3 times in a turn without use of procession: Feast, Mining Village, Pillage. (Did I forget any?) That doesn't help though.

oh yea, you're right.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2014, 04:55:56 pm »
0

How are you planning to gain Madmen mid-turn?

Oh yeah, Madman doesn't work.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #102 on: April 27, 2014, 12:13:16 pm »
+1

I think that it would be possible if Procession trashed the Action card before playing it twice, but otherwise you need a way to be able to chain the same two Processions endlessly and I don't see a way to do that.
To get around the fact that the action is played twice before being trashed, you just need extra copies of the desired action(s) in the desired place, probably the trash.  Procession on Rogue could pull a Procession and Rogue out of the trash if they're already there.  Unfortunately that's trashing two cards and returning two cards, and you still need a way to draw and play the cards you returned.  If there was a triple version of Procession (as KC to Throne Room), that would do the trick, but that's probably why such a card doesn't exist :)

Procession on Rogue only trashes one card (Rogue) and puts the other (Procession) into the play area for the rest of the turn, so even with free card draw this wouldn't be an infinite combo. You'd need to stack multiple Processions for getting to re-use some of them in the same turn. But since the first ("non-processioned") Procession of such a stack stays in the play area, you can play at most 10 Procession stacks in one turn - the first with at most ten Procession cards, the second with at most nine Procession cards and so on (assuming no BoM). The same restriction would hold for your hypothetical "triple Procession" card.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #103 on: October 24, 2014, 04:27:29 am »
+11

You know, I wonder who this herowannabe is. He only had 4 posts and posted this combo and then vanished. Who is this mysterious person who discovered one of the most powerful Dominion combos of all time.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #104 on: October 24, 2014, 12:19:18 pm »
+14

It's a funny situation, a very nice article which (almost immediately) rendered itself obsolete. It has no advice for mirrors!
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #105 on: October 24, 2014, 12:41:07 pm »
0

It's a funny situation, a very nice article which (almost immediately) rendered itself obsolete. It has no advice for mirrors!
A keen observation.

Actually, the article opens by assuming others had figured out the gist of the combo on their own, but didn't post their findings for whatever reason.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #106 on: October 24, 2014, 01:39:01 pm »
0

Is this the guy with the biggest legitimate respect:post ratio?
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #107 on: October 24, 2014, 01:39:47 pm »
0

...nope, Celestial Chameleon still has more.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #108 on: October 24, 2014, 05:06:34 pm »
+1

It's a funny situation, a very nice article which (almost immediately) rendered itself obsolete. It has no advice for mirrors!

Well then write that part. It's really strange when two people play the combo.
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #109 on: October 24, 2014, 09:18:15 pm »
0

It's a funny situation, a very nice article which (almost immediately) rendered itself obsolete. It has no advice for mirrors!

Well then write that part. It's really strange when two people play the combo.

I believe someone wrote that one a little while ago.

Edit: Hmmm... Maybe not. All searching turned up was a request for such an article.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 09:19:54 pm by GeoLib »
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #110 on: March 30, 2015, 02:20:06 am »
+16

You know, I wonder who this herowannabe is. He only had 4 posts and posted this combo and then vanished. Who is this mysterious person who discovered one of the most powerful Dominion combos of all time.

 8)
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Re: Combo: Hermit/Madman + Market Square
« Reply #111 on: March 31, 2015, 01:36:12 am »
0

You know, I wonder who this herowannabe is. He only had 4 posts and posted this combo and then vanished. Who is this mysterious person who discovered one of the most powerful Dominion combos of all time.

I have the same question about the guy who discovered KC-KC-Goons-Masquerade. I played  against him on isotopic -- did he ever post here?
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