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theory

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Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« on: February 04, 2013, 09:55:59 am »
+1

[If you can't see the poll above this post, you must log in or register!]

These are the eleven sets that were scheduled for the final and third-place match of the 2012 DominionStrategy.com Championships.  (The eleventh set was unused, but is still eligible for this poll.)  Please vote for your favorite of these sets -- you may define favorite in any way you choose.  You may change your vote at any time.

Feel free to use this thread to discuss the sets, how -Stef-, Mic Qsenoch, Obi Wan Bonogi, and lespeutere played them, and whether you spot any alternative strategies that the players might have missed.

The winner will receive a Dominion expansion of his choice.  Voting will close in one week and the winner will be announced then.

Full list of entries and comments

All of these sets are available on dominiondeck.com
 
FinalBronze MatchDesignerSet
 * indicates Bane
Game 1Game 1PowermanVineyard, Apothecary, Fishing Village, Menagerie, Envoy, Young Witch, Market, Goons, Hoard, Expand, Colony, *Wishing Well
Game 2Game 2shark_baitFool’s Gold, Lookout, Shanty Town, Warehouse, Woodcutter, Remodel, Sea Hag, Apprentice, Bazaar, Hoard
Game 3Game 3WingnutHamlet, Menagerie, Tunnel, Watchtower, Monument, Remake, Inn, Tactician, Adventurer, Bank
Game 4Game 4WanderingWinderCourtyard, Oracle, Trade Route, Tournament, Golem, Bazaar, Mint, Rabble, Fairgrounds, King’s Court
Game 5Game 5Beyond AwesomeVineyard, Herbalist, Fishing Village, Philosopher’s Stone, Caravan, Young Witch, Horn of Plenty, Mandarin, Royal Seal, Trading Post, *Watchtower
Game 6Game 6Robz888Ambassador, Lookout, Wishing Well, Bishop, Ironworks, Monument, Trader, Venture, Expand, Peddler, Colony
Game 7Game 7jonts26Crossroads, Embargo, Trade Route, Tunnel, Village, Warehouse, Workshop, Silk Road, Spice Merchant, Apprentice
Game 8Game 8edneverMoat, Fortune Teller, Bridge, Moneylender, Smithy, Throne Room, Festival, Jester, Vault, Fairgrounds
Game 9Game 9RobertJChapel, Embargo, Fool’s Gold, Oasis, Workshop, Thief, Throne Room, Worker’s Village, Margrave, Wharf
Game 10Game 10Polk5440Haven, Fishing Village, Scheme, Steward, Horse Traders, Mountebank, Upgrade, Festival, Library, Goons
Game 11Game 11TablesNative Village, Talisman, Treasure Map, Worker’s Village, City, Vault, Venture, Grand Market, Expand, Peddler, Colony

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Davio

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2013, 10:10:33 am »
0

Hey, I voted for the 100%, who knew I had such bland commercial taste.  :P
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brokoli

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2013, 11:05:10 am »
0

I voted for #3, unhasitatingly. It's exactly the kind of kingdom I like : different options with very fun cards. I think remake and Inn are especially interesting. But maybe it makes the game a little too fast.

On this set, it's interesting to note that Stef and Mic ignored tactician, unlike lespeutere and Obi Wan Bonogi.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 11:07:09 am by brokoli »
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philosophyguy

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2013, 11:26:44 am »
0

I initially voted for 3 but switched to 5.

3 is mind-warpingly powerful and so. fast. But 5 is a set that has a ridiculous amount of strategic depth, requiring you to play both your opponent and the board and timing your transition between phases of the game carefully.

I loved reading the board for set 4 (nice job, WW!) but I'm so bad at playing Fairgrounds that I don't know whether going for the 6/8-point Fairgrounds instead of Provinces is a legit strategy. I tend to think the game will play as a Province slog with Fairgrounds as Duchy+. Is there something I'm overlooking here?
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brokoli

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2013, 11:40:51 am »
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I like 5 too, except watchtower. What's the point ? Watchtower is too powerful as a bane and a little bit too strong with fishing village... I would have preferred something like Oracle, Shanty town, Oasis or great hall...
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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2013, 11:53:27 am »
+1

I'm obviously slightly biased towards my own, but I really like set 7 by jonts.  Yeah, you could go for classic WS/SR, but there is just so much more than an alt-VP rush.  The synergy between SM/Crossroads, Warehouse/Tunnel/Apprentice, and Embargo/Workshop make this a really interesting set to play that could either end on Provinces or piles depending on how the game is played out.

EDIT:  Just looked at the 2 games played by the finalists, 1 Province and 1 Pile  :)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 11:55:41 am by shark_bait »
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PitzerMike

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2013, 01:07:12 pm »
0

I also picked #7 - it's the one I would like to play myself the most.
It looks like there's plenty of options and it also looks like it wouldn't give me too much headache while playing.
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Tables

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2013, 01:12:27 pm »
0

I picked #11 because I want Dark Ages it manages to be interesting while only using 2 expansions.

That said, I think there's some very very good kingdoms here. Game 2 was probably my favourite in terms of how it was played, but I dunno if that means it was my favourite kingdom.
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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2013, 01:17:09 pm »
+5

Here's a comprehensive list of what each finalist had to say about their respective Kingdom

Set 1:  Powerman

Vineyard, Apothecary, Fishing Village, Menagerie, Envoy, Young Witch, Market, Goons, Hoard, Expand, Colony, *Wishing Well

Quote
I think it offers a lot of different strategies.  Vineyards is very strong (especially with early potion buys being able to be Apothecaries) but it is also quite easy to set up a Goons engine.  With that said, a big money approach with FV-Envoy and maybe a hoard or two might be able to rush Colonies or Provinces and end it before the engine gets started, as the only trashing is Expand.  Young With also allows for the engine player to slow down the BM player, but if an engine gets hit with a few early curses it might never take off.

Set 2:  shark_bait

Fool’s Gold, Lookout, Shanty Town, Warehouse, Woodcutter, Remodel, Sea Hag, Apprentice, Bazaar, Hoard

Quote
This set highlights the transition from from an early game slogfest to a late game powerhouse.  Sea Hag provides a way to hinder your opponent.  But how to do so is the question, do you look to annihilate your opponent by playing as many as possible and then using TfB to transition?  Do you ignore it completely and use the various counters like Lookout/Remodel to build a lead?  Or do you play a hybrid strategy that looks to both attack your opponent and improve your deck at the same time.  This kingdom should allow for a fast game despite the presence of one of the more brutal attacks.

Set 3:  Wingnut

Hamlet, Menagerie, Tunnel, Watchtower, Monument, Remake, Inn, Tactician, Adventurer, Bank

Quote
"The Goal: Find a set where some form of BM is viable but where it's not automatic and where a skilled player is likely to find something different to do. IE something different that the different variations of all engine games we saw last year (though that was really fun).

Options I see (surely there are more):

Tunnel with Tactician/Inn
Tactician/Bank
Inn or Hamlet/Menagerie or Watchtower and possibly using multiple Monuments as extra payload
Whatever some high level player will do with Remake (I have no idea but this set felt like it needed a trasher in it"

Set 4:  WanderingWinder

Courtyard, Oracle, Trade Route, Tournament, Golem, Bazaar, Mint, Rabble, Fairgrounds, King’s Court

Quote
There's the potential for 8 point fairgrounds here (would need 2 prizes and everything else on the board), and fairgrounds from an engine look to be super powerful, but on the other hand, tournament pulls you to provinces. Courtyard certainly allows for some possibility of a money deck, as well, as the villages, while excellent, are expensive. It also allows for early mints to happen. Trade route can clean up and gives buys. The game is likely to hinge on one player plowing ahead for ending the game on provinces with the other going for enormous fairgrounds, and the question being whether the latter can get there in time, probably needing an early province for prizes at any rate. There's also the possibility of KC-fueled money-floods, which may be strong, or maybe not.

Set 5:  Beyond Awesome

Vineyard, Herbalist, Fishing Village, Philosopher’s Stone, Caravan, Young Witch, Horn of Plenty, Mandarin, Royal Seal, Trading Post, *Watchtower

Quote
Herbalist/Pstone is here, but we also have the Mandarin copper/silver/gold + Royal Seal +HoP combo. I am not sure it is faster than Herbalist PStone, but it is there for someone going for a engine. We have Fishing Village/ Watchtower/and Young Witch as great engine enablers. We also have Caravan and Herbalist for +Buy. There is also Vineyards so someone can go for an action/HoP engine and try winning the game by Vineyards as well.

Set 6:  Robz888

Ambassador, Lookout, Wishing Well, Bishop, Ironworks, Monument, Trader, Venture, Expand, Peddler, Colony

Quote
This set, which I played IRL with 4 people, offers an engine without Villages or +buy. Ambassador is always key (thwarting a Venture-based or Golden Deck) but here it finds strange counters in Trader and Lookout. Meanwhile, Peddler makes a lovely target for Bishop or Expand, but you will have to do a lot of work with Ironworks and Wishing Well to get there.

Set 7:  jonts26

Crossroads, Embargo, Trade Route, Tunnel, Village, Warehouse, Workshop, Silk Road, Spice Merchant, Apprentice

Quote
"This is a power board with two distinct strategies. The idea is that both strategies are equally viable (as is a hybrid of the two if played right). Also, either strategy is still interesting and very tactical in a mirror match.

The more obvious strategy revolves around silk road with a lot of support. There are also a few different ways to play the silk road ranging from rush to slog. Use tunnel warehouse to get gold and buy province/duchy support? Thin copper with spice merchant and use crossroads/village/warehouse to draw big and cycle big? Many opportunities for tactical advantage to shine through.

The less obvious, but more powerful strategy revolves around apprentice/tunnel/warehouse to gain and apprentice golds for massive draw and spending power. The limiting factor for this plan is how quickly you can buy provinces. Since all +buy options require a card to be trashed and are terminal,  likely you will settle for a few 2-3 province turns. Embargo exists to allow the Silk Road player to slow this down by clogging the apprentice deck, hopefully leading to dead turns, bringing the two to roughly equal power levels. In a mirror, end game dancing will be more interesting since both players would know exactly what the other is capable of. Additionally, there is room for one player to quickly, unexpectedly embargo provinces and transition into a Silk Road/workshop game. If done right, it could potentially be the strongest strategy of the board."

Set 8:  ednever

Moat, Fortune Teller, Bridge, Moneylender, Smithy, Throne Room, Festival, Jester, Vault, Fairgrounds

Quote
"The set doesn't look special from just looking at it, but a closer look reveals hat the dominant strategy might require using a combination of ALL ten cards.

The Fairgrounds gives you time to build an engine - and the bridge allows for a mega turn of sorts (especially with Throne Room). The only village is Festival, which is expensive and doesn't have any draw, so you need to use Smithies and double-thrones pretty extensively. Which then means you need Moneylender to clear out your copper. Fortune Teller slows the other guy down just a tad (and works better with Throne Room than Silver). Moat give you another draw options at a lower price point. And Jester lets you pick up the other guys engine components - since you need pretty much everything.

Since you will go across the board on card-types, Fairgrounds will be worth as much as Provinces - effectively doubling the length of the game.

There are a lot of nuances on which cards to buy in which order. All the piles will get driven down, but not 1-3 piles down to the point where the game will end on piles. So it's a long game that doesn't have a lot of attacks.

The end game will play out like a lot of end games - but it will happen a LOT later. And these wonderful engines both players built will get demolished when they go green (Which means that picking up a Vault becomes key too - the last of the ten cards you need to win here I think)

Set 9:  RobertJ

Chapel, Embargo, Fool’s Gold, Oasis, Workshop, Thief, Throne Room, Worker’s Village, Margrave, Wharf

Quote
With trashing, draw and +buys Fool's Gold looks hard to ignore but is it better to chapel into it (risking thieves) or just rely on the good draw? Judicious embargoing may also make things interesting although workshop and chapel will get round this to some extent.

Set 10:  Polk5440

Haven, Fishing Village, Scheme, Steward, Horse Traders, Mountebank, Upgrade, Festival, Library, Goons

Quote
The simultaneous tension and synergy between Goons and Library drives this kingdom. Fishing Village, Festival, and Library is a potent engine. Goons is a constant threat (countered by Library and Horse Traders). Mountebank clogs, but Steward and Upgrade speed things along. Upgrade and Horse Traders provide easy access to $5s and $6s. Scheme and Haven are targets for extra Goons buys in addition to making all the pieces come together that much quicker. Three piling is a concern here.

Set 11:  Tables

Native Village, Talisman, Treasure Map, Worker’s Village, City, Vault, Venture, Grand Market, Expand, Peddler, Colony

Quote
This is based on a set I played face to face, although I've exchanging Jack for City, firstly because Jack isn't interesting here and City is, and secondly because it becomes a cool, difficult kingdom with only two sets used, which is kinda cute. There's lots of options for combos here, and lots of potential strategies involving more than one of them. It's gonna be some kind of engine for sure, but focusing on what, and building into what, are the key questions.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 01:25:29 pm by shark_bait »
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theory

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2013, 01:21:30 pm »
+2

Fixed your message (copy/paste into text edit software, find/replace code with quote).
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Polk5440

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2013, 01:28:41 pm »
0

People should read the descriptions the creators wrote for their sets, as well. Theory included them in the Google Doc linked to in this thread. They are very interesting!

Edit: shark_bait beat me to it!

Game 10Game 10Polk5440Haven, Fishing Village, Scheme, Steward, Horse Traders, Mountebank, Upgrade, Festival, Library, Goons


Re: my kingdom (game 10). Here was the description I submitted:
Quote
The simultaneous tension and synergy between Goons and Library drives this kingdom. Fishing Village, Festival, and Library is a potent engine. Goons is a constant threat (countered by Library and Horse Traders). Mountebank clogs, but Steward and Upgrade speed things along. Upgrade and Horse Traders provide easy access to $5s and $6s. Scheme and Haven are targets for extra Goons buys in addition to making all the pieces come together that much quicker. Three piling is a concern here.

This set is based on a set that I put together and play-tested with a few friends. Based on that play-testing and a few solo games, here are some additional things I had in mind with the kingdom:

There is lots of power present and you have to be careful with what you buy and when. The speed of the game is critical, and I think that neuters the attacks enough where Mountebank may not be worth buying, or even a mistake (of course, depending on the exact game builds). In addition, I know some people were disappointed to see this as a second Goons game, but I think that this set can be played successfully in a way that emphasizes the Library engine over driving Goons points because Library and HT are effective counters to the discard attack.

In person I successfully played a no-Goons, no-Mountebank strategy (which is extreme and is definitely not always correct) by building a quality FV/Festival/Library engine, one HT, and grabbing a couple Provinces and ending on piles. The idea here is to use Upgrade on all three of your Estates and using Steward to trash Coppers only, if possible, otherwise use it to reach $5, and picking up a HT when convenient. I think the extra gains from Upgrading Estates which facilitates the engine give about a turn or so tempo even considering the larger deck size from not aggressively trashing with Steward. A second Library is probably needed and too many Havens may be bad for this approach, too.

I am not sure what the right opening is. Steward/Steward is safe but I think promotes over-trashing; I think Steward/Scheme is the most flexible in terms of either setting up a big library engine or a smaller one with lots of Goons. There is an argument for Steward/HT, I think, especially from the second seat, even given lespeutere's bad luck. I would have been very tempted from that seat to open as he did with an eye on having HT, Steward, Upgrade, Festival, Library and a FV or Scheme in deck by turn 6 (or as quickly as possible). Given the bad draw he got, I think I might have been tempted to take Steward for money, grab a Scheme and hope to topdeck an Upgrade relatively quickly to get rid of the Estates and catch up in quality cards; but I don't know if that's right. Especially with HT requiring discarding, you don't have to be as fast as possible with trashing Estates here, I don't think.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 01:32:36 pm by Polk5440 »
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gman314

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2013, 01:40:54 pm »
0

I voted for set 7, mostly based on my experience playing it. I played 7, 8 and 9 and felt that 7 was the one I wanted to try the most a second time. There's so much potential there with Warehouse/Tunnel/Apprentice as well as a Silk Roads/Workshop approach and then Embargo can go throw all sorts of problems into your plans.

That being said, I would like to find someone to play some of the others with.
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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2013, 03:18:16 pm »
0

I'm gonna vote for one not my own, because well, I feel weird voting for my own here, and I don't think it's particularly better than lots of the others. I would love to play some of these. Anyway, I will post my comments on all the sets in a bit, but for now I wanted to point out that I played almost the exact set 5
 in the Division Semis of the tournament. This isn't at all mentioned in the description, and he did make 2 changes (wishing well, the previous bane, and throne room are out for royal seal and vineyard) which probably help the interest level of the set, but I figured this should be out there.


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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2013, 03:51:38 pm »
0

I'm gonna vote for one not my own, because well, I feel weird voting for my own here, and I don't think it's particularly better than lots of the others. I would love to play some of these. Anyway, I will post my comments on all the sets in a bit, but for now I wanted to point out that I played almost the exact set 5
 in the Division Semis of the tournament. This isn't at all mentioned in the description, and he did make 2 changes (wishing well, the previous bane, and throne room are out for royal seal and vineyard) which probably help the interest level of the set, but I figured this should be out there.

lol When I made the set, I wasn't even aware of that. But, I do think the Vineyard and Watchtower as Bane changes the kingdom up a bit. Vineyard did play a large role in both the final and Bronze match game.

I like 5 too, except watchtower. What's the point ? Watchtower is too powerful as a bane and a little bit too strong with fishing village... I would have preferred something like Oracle, Shanty town, Oasis or great hall...

I really wanted Watchtower in there, and having at as the Bane was intentional.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 03:52:52 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2013, 03:54:56 pm »
0

Set 1: This looks like an apothecary/wishing well engine to me. You can also make engines out of FV with menagerie or envoy, but you're going to run into terminal problems with envoy, and with either of those two, young witch will curse you. I think I would want a young witch, as it's really nice to get some curses out, and I would expect you could get between one and two down, on average. But maybe you delay and only get one if they don't also go wishing well? In that case, you definitely want one. Young witch's non-cursing stufff is notn negligible here, though. Goons should be the focus on 6+, as you'd eventually like to do big multi-goons business, though that is actually not terribly likely to happen. After one goons, more work should be put into building the engine, though, probably, but you do have to watch for three pile endings, and that is where vineyards can come in. Anyhow, this is okay (given the context, okay is actually really good) , but definitely not my favorite.

Set 2: Yeah, you can maaaybe ignore sea hag here, though probably you want one before boosting into your engine. Lookouts will be nice trashing against the hag, though, and eventually you want ot get T4B up, particularly apprentice, with hoard, to run things out. Again, not my favorite - the engine is too clear here, for my tastes.

Set 3: Ah, now this IS one of my favorites. There's tunnel, and that looks really clear that it has to be good. And hamlet goes really nicely with it and with menagerie and/or watchtower, and you know monument is decent in this play, and inn can play a pretty decent role. But what puts this over the top is the remake (which you know you want early) and its late action off of banks! Remaking up to province seems to actually be really strong here, and then it becomes a question of how to get there fast enough, and if and how to blend this with the more traditional buying your way there.

Set 4: My set. Sadly, I wouldn't count this as one of the better of my submissions, but oh well. Probably, in hindsight, it would be better if the Rabble where something else - smithy maybe, I would have done Catacombs if DA were available, venture seems good to me now, as this would make big money a more intriguing possibility. I do really like the potential for 8 point fairgrounds here, and for as much as Mic Q complained about the set being a 'I won followers quick, it was game over, boring', I think that's a real mis-analysis. I mean, okay, he got a luck bomb, but well, for one thing I don't think the game was actually even over then. Bu more important, if you don't get such a clear luck bomb, I'm fairly sure you want to build the engine up a good bit before you actually go for greening, though when to do that is the big question. And I think followers is really only the third best prize here, largely because with the big engine, it's not SUCH a big deal, and princess and Trusty Steed (in that order) both help you build up so much more.

Set 5: I played a game with very close to this exact set in the tournament. I am fairly sure herbalist/pstone was best there, though the slight changes make it more of a question here. It's possible to go HoP for a bit of a mega here, but it's very very hard, because draw-to-x is not great for that purpose. Vineyards gives the engine a very good chance, as that's going to be a LOT of points. How to build it is a touch unclear though, and needs a very sure hand. I'm also not sure if it can beat a well-played herbalist p-stone anyway, though surely based on luck, either are going to win SOME of the games, at least. And there's a mandarin/HoP golden deck here, but I figure it has to be WAY too slow unless you get pretty lucky.

Set 6: I would like this set so much better if it didn't have colonies! As is, seems to be that you just have to ambassador down, get wishing wells and lots of peddlers, expand them and win, hoping you get there early enough. Without colonies, it's much richer, as monument, bishop, and most importantly trader have big things to say. Though even here, there's a little bit of question about how to get there - I don't think I like ironworks here, but of course I'm not 100% sure.

Set 7: This one is a real winner as well. Workshop is actually not all that hot for rushes, and the engine off of warehouse, crossroads, a tunnel or two, and apprentice, is very strong, potentially very fast. It has to deal wth embargo much more though. I have a feeling that going just more VP rush than the other guy is going to win, unless you cross over the line just too much, and then snapping back way far to the mega-enginey play will win the day. Embargo is  a real monkey wrench - and I would really like to test this one, particularly against jonts, who says the engine is definitely best.

Set 8: Another one that screams engine to me, and can I say that I am a good bit surprised that stef went vault and money here. Without smithy, I think it would be a lot more interesting, as really the engine will still be strong, but it's a bit hard to draw things. Those fairgrounds are going to be new provinces though, and with throne room to pound stuff out for you, not to mention a very good use of vault's penalty, I have to think engine is good here.

Set 9: Yeah, this is another of my faves, and one where money is probably closest to best out of everything. Still, I figure building an engine with chapel, a workshop, villages, eventually throne rooms, lots of wharves, and one margrave should be good, and the key factor is thief if you need it, which I absolutely love, and which can be very crippling.

Set 10: Well, this is pretty good, but it's also a decently obvious engine to my eyes. Mountebank is maybe skippable here, I think even probably so. You want library for the draw, FV and festival for actions, Goons for points, Steward for trashing. Horse traders, normally good with library and against goons, is, I think, a trap here, though it has decently nice synergy with scheme sometimes. but you want your actions for other things, and you aren't going to have enough cards to village, village, HT, then library all that consistently. Anyway, two to three schemes would be really nice, but I think you need to cut and get one, because other stuff is too vital. You really need to replace your library though. And then havens supplement seeding your next hand. The ending - and when and how far to lunge for points - is probably most often most interesting here, if it gets that far without early shuffle luck deciding. And what to open - I like Steward/Steward, but Scheme/Steward or maaaaybe fishing village/steward are certainly possible as well.

Set 11: I am not totally sure here, but I think you want to go after oodles of peddlers, then use cities for draw. GMs if you can pull them but it's not a huge deal. Expands, yes, and a bigger deal. Native village not a huge deal, treasure map and venture quite irrelevant. Talisman is a maybe, but I think not. And vault is nice for GMs, but unless you open with one, or maybe get one very very early, I don't think it will be worth it. Maybe even open Worker's Village/Native village on 4/3???? But a silver with WV is certainly possible as well. There's no draw except the cities and vaults, which is weak, and a touch of a bummer, but well, you go for the cities very early and oh well.

Wingnut

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2013, 04:53:15 pm »
0

Have to say my two favorite sets here are set 3 and set 11. Tables you get the vote as I am not voting for my own set. I just wish we had seen set 11 get played in either round.

For set 11, I like the lack of draw beyond Vault and Level 2 Cities. I think it makes tactics as important and strategy. The only thing I am really curious about is the presence of Venture or Treasure Map with the general lack of trashing or trashing on the board. If I saw this board, I would probably jump in to Vault-GM and get crushed buy someones Peddler-City-Expand deck or look for a quick 3-pile winning by some awful score like 3-2.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2013, 05:39:11 pm »
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Set 4: My set. Sadly, I wouldn't count this as one of the better of my submissions, but oh well. Probably, in hindsight, it would be better if the Rabble where something else - smithy maybe, I would have done Catacombs if DA were available, venture seems good to me now, as this would make big money a more intriguing possibility. I do really like the potential for 8 point fairgrounds here, and for as much as Mic Q complained about the set being a 'I won followers quick, it was game over, boring', I think that's a real mis-analysis. I mean, okay, he got a luck bomb, but well, for one thing I don't think the game was actually even over then. Bu more important, if you don't get such a clear luck bomb, I'm fairly sure you want to build the engine up a good bit before you actually go for greening, though when to do that is the big question. And I think followers is really only the third best prize here, largely because with the big engine, it's not SUCH a big deal, and princess and Trusty Steed (in that order) both help you build up so much more.

I thought your set was cool, and my comment about the Followers wasn't a complaint, I was very happy to get a quick, easy, win. I don't need interesting games. I think the presence of Courtyard makes one person getting an early Prize a little more likely, and then KC makes it possible for a snowball. But if both players come out with manageable decks then it looks to be a fun board.


My favorite of the bunch was probably jonts set. A few people have said that embargo throws a wrench in the engine player's plans, but at least in our game I would have loved for the Provinces to be embargoed, the Curses would have been a nice source of +buy through Trade Route. And one Workshop for the engine player should be plenty to pick up all the little pieces you need.
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DG

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2013, 07:04:59 pm »
+1

I would actually make a different comment about the sets. Very few were reactive. Some of the best decisions along the lines of - if he buys the militia then I want a watchtower, although I don't really want a watchtower or militia, but if he doesn't get a watchtower I should really get a militia. What do I buy now? This puts some more interesting decisions into the mix and you can see this balance in the sets that Donald X. creates.

As for set 7, I think this set is still being misread a little. The power comes from the spice merchant/warehouse/tunnel combination and the apprentice is simply a good finisher for that. The workshop is peripheral and probably not needed.  I haven't voted for that one just because I knew about it already ;).
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 07:07:32 pm by DG »
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Powerman

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2013, 07:05:59 pm »
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Powerman 2013!  :-*
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A man on a mission.

jonts26

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2013, 07:11:50 pm »
+1

As for set 7, I think this set is still being misread a little. The power comes from the spice merchant/warehouse/tunnel combination and the apprentice is simply a good finisher for that. The workshop is peripheral and probably not needed.  I haven't voted for that one just because I knew about it already ;).

I can assure you, the power of the engine relies on apprentice/warehouse/tunnel with the spice merchant being ancillary. Taking out apprentice makes provinces completely non-viable. You can still go for provinces without SM.
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DG

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2013, 07:28:01 pm »
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Quote
I can assure you, the power of the engine relies on apprentice/warehouse/tunnel with the spice merchant being ancillary. Taking out apprentice makes provinces completely non-viable.

Any decent finisher will do. Wharves were the best I found in the simulator when I looked it after hinterlands was released ...
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jonts26

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2013, 09:20:53 pm »
+1

Quote
I can assure you, the power of the engine relies on apprentice/warehouse/tunnel with the spice merchant being ancillary. Taking out apprentice makes provinces completely non-viable.

Any decent finisher will do. Wharves were the best I found in the simulator when I looked it after hinterlands was released ...

I'm still not sure I'm getting you. If you give me 3 out of 4 of warehouse, tunnel, wharf, SM, I'd leave the SM. If anything, the real combo here is just tunnel/warehouse and on the list of single card support, yeah SM is pretty good, but there's like a dozen things I'd put before it. Probably more.
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blackb

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2013, 10:05:08 am »
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I'm kind of disappionted by some of the kingdoms. As there is no other possibility than one certain strategy. A bad choice for the final imo.
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Tables

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2013, 03:36:45 pm »
+1

Strategy isn't everything, often tactics play an important role as well. Sometimes a game which is an obvious Garden rush can be extremely interesting if there's lots of different viable paths to bloating your deck.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Final Voting: 2012 Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2013, 03:46:04 pm »
+3

for those interested, i added these sets to the Recommended Kingdoms page on the wiki.
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