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Author Topic: Final / Third Place Match livetopic  (Read 12538 times)

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lespeutere

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2013, 07:47:27 pm »
0

Too much Watchtower, this card is hard to play! Too much Fishing Village, there are other villages! Too much Goon's, this card is DOMINATING! Too much thinking! Haven't you people heard of DoubleJack? IGG? Next year I expect a little more variety in these things. Some of you may not believe it, but it's possible to make interesting Big Money boards. I challenge you all to find them.

+10 for this (although I don't agree with the watchtower part as I really like WT ;-))
Especially when you're on the losing end of such a series, it's really hard to stay focused. And if you don't stay focused you'll lose even more likely which in turn lets you slip a tiny bit more. And this may be even more true for a bronze medal match.
I'd say, bo9 is really enough.
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theory

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2013, 07:48:02 pm »
+1

FYI, if your set wasn't chosen, don't be disappointed.  We had tons of great submissions, and it was hard even to narrow it down to the 35 candidates.  Ultimately, card diversity was just as important as set quality in choosing the final 11 -- the same cards couldn't come up over and over again, so your set might have been rejected simply because there were too many other similar sets.
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lespeutere

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2013, 07:49:41 pm »
+1

I was confused about why you resigned so soon in Game 6.  Did you feel you were falling behind in the Ambassador war?
No goons in game 6, though.
Plus I did upload videos, first 2 are w/o audio, I'm afraid.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 07:51:17 pm by lespeutere »
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Tables

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2013, 08:04:09 pm »
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Oh, wow, both of my sets made it to candidate level, that's pretty cool.

Edit: 2/3 actually. The one I liked most didn't become a candidate, the one I liked least was a finals game...  ::)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 08:06:18 pm by Tables »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2013, 08:08:59 pm »
+6

I was confused about why you resigned so soon in Game 6.  Did you feel you were falling behind in the Ambassador war?

I had not fallen behind in the Ambassador war, I had lost it completely. The rest of the game looks like this: -Stef- buys Peddlers for a while, I spend time cleaning up my deck (probably I should have gotten a second Ambassador at some point). -Stef- buys an Expand. Now whenever I clean my deck up I am potentially providing +buy to him on a board without +buy. Maybe he can do something with Ventures because of that. More likely he just sends the crap back to me. He will be able to buy a Peddler, Expand Peddler-->Colony a few times. This isn't a catch up board because there aren't any really good turns to be had. It would take an incredible string of lucky turns for me and unlucky ones for him. For the challenge forum: find such a sequence where we both play reasonable strategies and I win (reasonable strategies must be approved by both -Stef- and I).

There's lot of good reasons to resign early in these games:
- I don't go on tilt if I quit soon enough
- I don't get even more tired/bored with this match that involves 20-30 minute games because we are both thinking way too much.
- I don't experience the further mental anguish of watching my turns become progressively less useful compared to his.

All this psychological stuff is very important in a match like this. People who feel like losers play like losers, people who feel like winners play like winners. Resignation actually steals a small amount of initiative back even though you lost. By Golly! This game is ending when I say it will.
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Robz888

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2013, 08:14:42 pm »
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On the game 6 set that MicQ resigned (rightly so, I think... such bad luck for him):

So, I played this exact set in real life with 4 total players, and it was really interesting (which is why I recommended it).

Trader became absolutely essential to block Ambassador stuff, and the Silver pile depleted entirely. Nobody really "won" the Ambassador war, obviously. We just had lots and lots of Silver.

One guy went for a Wishing Well/Peddler/Expand thing, which worked out decently well.

Me and one of the other guys played it sort of Big Money-esque with Ventures (We had oh so much Silver), and I think a Bishop or two.

The other guy flailed.

But it ended up real close between the three of us.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2013, 08:24:06 pm »
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Well, Ambassador plays a lot differently in a 4P game.
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Robz888

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2013, 08:27:26 pm »
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Well, Ambassador plays a lot differently in a 4P game.

Yes. Of course I expected it to translate a lot differently here, and be somewhat more straightforward.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2013, 11:29:10 pm »
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You should check out the overall stats on the submitted entries: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuZ91-6FOcw_dGIzY0duNEE5UFFXOTlRZk9FcWlMblE&usp=sharing#gid=9

I'm missing what your point is here - are you saying that such things weren't submitted, that you didn't choose them (why not?), or... well, what is your point?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 08:30:37 am by greatexpectations »
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greatexpectations

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2013, 08:31:38 am »
0

I'm missing what your point is here - are you saying that such things weren't submitted, that you didn't choose them (why not?), or... well, what is your point?

i think his point was that there was not as much creative difference as you would hope to see out of 220+ entries. there was a massive amount of repeat, as the card distribution should show you. what it comes down to is that people out there are going to find fault with the picks no matter what we did. if the sets were too plain, it leads to a couple of boring mirror games and calls for us to pick more engine boards. if they are too complex you get more fatigue from the players and calls for simpler boards, even if the community finds the sets fascinating.

and my apologies WW, i accidentally hit 'modify' for your post instead of 'quote' and i didn't catch it until it was too late. no ill will there.
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theory

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2013, 10:22:32 am »
0

You should check out the overall stats on the submitted entries: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuZ91-6FOcw_dGIzY0duNEE5UFFXOTlRZk9FcWlMblE&usp=sharing#gid=9

I'm missing what your point is here - are you saying that such things weren't submitted, that you didn't choose them (why not?), or... well, what is your point?

I wanted to just point out that it wasn't just submissions that defined the popular cards, it was our choices for the final 11.  If we had gone by submission popularity, the final would have been alt-VP paradise.

Edit: Come to think of it, a kingdom of the top 10 most submitted cards would be a bizarrely amusing (if not interesting) kingdom:

Hamlet
Silk Road
Gardens
Tunnel
Duke
Throne Room
Goons
Fishing Village
Ironworks
King's Court
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mith

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2013, 12:19:15 pm »
+3

Perhaps an "unpopular" set to balance things out?

Pearl Diver
Treasury
Outpost
Explorer
Farmland
Feast
Navigator
Nomad Camp
Stash
Laboratory

(Trading Post removed because it did make it into a final set, despite only being in 3 submissions; Black Market dropped from the eight way tie because the BM deck might include popular cards!)
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PitzerMike

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2013, 12:43:11 pm »
0

Perhaps an "unpopular" set to balance things out?

Pearl Diver
Treasury
Outpost
Explorer
Farmland
Feast
Navigator
Nomad Camp
Stash
Laboratory

(Trading Post removed because it did make it into a final set, despite only being in 3 submissions; Black Market dropped from the eight way tie because the BM deck might include popular cards!)

This set could use an unpopular village ... maybe Walled Village?
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mith

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2013, 01:38:40 pm »
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I wasn't very clear in my previous post - those cards are just the least submitted cards in the spreadsheet (with the exceptions noted). I kinda like that there is no village anyway, only one set out of the 11 chosen was lacking a village (whereas you would expect 3 or 4 choosing randomly, if my very rough estimate is in the ballpark).

(Based on submissions, Mining Village was actually the least popular from a design point-of-view.)
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Jerk of All trades

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2013, 02:01:23 pm »
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And this is why I usually veto Tournament and ambassador.

2 games out of the final 10 decided by early game luck...  It's so frustration to see a turn 7 followers (then the KC+followers a couple turns later), or missing your ambassador on the first shuffle.

I'm surprised people included these cards in their deck choices.  ( At least throw possession in if you include ambassador to give an ambassador player some pause.)
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Dekryr

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2013, 02:13:03 pm »
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Did I read this right...not a single Province game in the finals?
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theory

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2013, 02:13:49 pm »
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Did I read this right...not a single Province game in the finals?

!Colony means "no Colony".
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jonts26

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2013, 02:14:23 pm »
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Did I read this right...not a single Province game in the finals?

By province game do you mean a game without colonies? If so, most were province games. !Colony means not colony.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2013, 02:58:37 pm »
+5

To clarify here...
I totally feel Mic Q in his frustration, both in losing and in the kingdoms. There isn't a single big money board here, really - not even one where it's terribly viable - and not really slogs either. Most everything is some kind of an engine, with a couple rush or combo possibilities. And while that is how most sets come down, that isn't indicative of all sets, or even such a high percentage that you wouldn't expect a couple out of 11. i.e. I can see him justifiably thinking he'd have had a better chance on pure random.

Having said that, I can also understand that theory and whoever helped him pick the sets were in a difficult position, and that it's not at all easy to pick sets that are going to be interesting enough, good enough, tactical and reactionary enough, with multiple directions, AND try to keep this meta-balance up, and first player advantage to boot, which could have come up. And all ahead of time. And some kudos to these guys for picking good sets - I can't point to one that I would just say it's super obvious you have to play it this way here. Sometimes, yes, it's very clear that it will be an engine, but that is a lot of Dominion nowadays, and really there are lots of decisions left with which engine to play, how to build it etc. So, as I can't say 'oh this set shouldn't have been in there', I really can't blame them much if at all, and their job was fairly thankless.

Jerk of All trades

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2013, 03:22:59 pm »
+1

Something interesting would have been to give 2 options for sets each time (maybe 1 pre-made, 1 random).  And allow second player to pick the set.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2013, 03:46:37 pm »
+1

Having said that, I can also understand that theory and whoever helped him pick the sets were in a difficult position, and that it's not at all easy to pick sets that are going to be interesting enough, good enough, tactical and reactionary enough, with multiple directions, AND try to keep this meta-balance up, and first player advantage to boot, which could have come up. And all ahead of time. And some kudos to these guys for picking good sets - I can't point to one that I would just say it's super obvious you have to play it this way here. Sometimes, yes, it's very clear that it will be an engine, but that is a lot of Dominion nowadays, and really there are lots of decisions left with which engine to play, how to build it etc. So, as I can't say 'oh this set shouldn't have been in there', I really can't blame them much if at all, and their job was fairly thankless.

this hits on it pretty well. there is a lot going on that we discussed and tried to take into account. to add to what you said, there was the desire to have only one set per person and to minimize repeated cards. these factors all limit things, as did the sheer number of entries and time frame we had to work with.

the trick with BM or a rush designs is that you want something to oppose it. yeah occasionally you get the chance for finesse/tactics in a BM/rush mirror, but at this level the mirror will likely be heavily luck based. you would like to see another option: a weak engine, attack, or rush is ideal here. or of course you could play two different BM/draw strategies.

as i liked saying when discussing the sets, a diverging strategy rarely means a competitively divergent strategy. there were a couple sets i can remember where the rush or BM seemed clearly too strong or too weak. while you want to see more balance you don't want to see it shift that far either. long story short, i think a great BM/rush design is more difficult than an engine design because you can't simply pick different paths.

fwiw i thought there was a decent slog and rush option in the sets. i thought that shark_bait's game was a solid slog design with an engine likely only viable in the late game. the curious draw of colonies for both games made that one more engine-y than it would have been otherwise. and jonts26's game did give you some decent rush options.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2013, 03:48:51 pm »
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I think next year with Guilds and Dark Ages, the kingdoms that come up will probably only be more tactically complicated. Some DA cards offer a lot of strategic choices and Donald X. has said that Guilds is the most complex set even though it only has 13 kingdom cards. I think in general, it is a challenge to come up with a a balanced BM board at this level of play. I'm not saying it is not possible though. But, seeing as these were the finals here, tough and complex kingdoms  that lend themselves to some engine buuilding with lot of strategic choices were to be expected here.
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Dekryr

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2013, 03:57:10 pm »
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Did I read this right...not a single Province game in the finals?

!Colony means "no Colony".

Ok I was reading it wrong. I thought they were all colony games. That seemed odd.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2013, 04:11:12 pm »
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Resignation actually steals a small amount of initiative back even though you lost. By Golly! This game is ending when I say it will.

This can be more psychologically important than most people realize.  I remember playing a game of DotA many years ago and the other team dominated and was just toying with us.  They wouldn't finish the game, so we just attacked our own throne and ended it while they were ignoring us.  We technically lost, but it felt like a win.
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Watno

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2013, 04:15:05 pm »
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Wow, that must have been very long ago. I can't remember the Throne ever being denieable.
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