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theory

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Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« on: February 03, 2013, 12:55:54 pm »
+16

All sets:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuZ91-6FOcw_dGIzY0duNEE5UFFXOTlRZk9FcWlMblE&usp=sharing#gid=8

lespeutere's livestream:  http://www.livestream.com/lespeutere

Best of 11 (6 wins)
-Stef- 6 - 4 Mic Qsenoch
lespeutere 4 - 6 Obi Wan Bonogi



Set 1: Powerman
Vineyard, Apothecary, Fishing Village, Menagerie, Envoy, Young Witch, Market, Goons, Hoard, Expand, Colony, *Wishing Well   
-Stef- > Mic Qsenoch http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-102530-a4adbff2.html
lespeutere > Obi Wan Bonogi http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-101850-b0873d7b.html               

Set 2: shark_bait
Fool's Gold, Lookout, Shanty Town, Warehouse, Woodcutter, Remodel, Sea Hag, Apprentice, Bazaar, Hoard                                 
*admins forgot to specify !Colony, and both games randomly drew (1 in 10) Colony boards.
-Stef- > Mic Qsenoch http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-105136-14542e0e.html
lespeutere < Obi Wan Bonogi http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-104108-39648436.html

Set 3: Wingnut
Hamlet, Menagerie, Tunnel, Watchtower, Monument, Remake, Inn, Tactician, Adventurer, Bank, !Colony                                    
-Stef- > Mic Qsenoch http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-112331-e752ed67.html
lespeutere > Obi Wan Bonogi http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-111152-ecfb9345.html

Set 4: WanderingWinder
Courtyard, Oracle, Trade Route, Tournament, Golem, Bazaar, Mint, Rabble, Fairgrounds, King's Court, !Colony
-Stef- < Mic Qsenoch http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-114040-504d5e6d.html
lespeutere < Obi Wan Bonogi http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-114215-81ab656a.html

Set 5: Beyond Awesome
Vineyard, Herbalist, Fishing Village, Philosopher's Stone, Caravan, Young Witch, Horn of Plenty, Mandarin, Royal Seal, Trading Post, !Colony, *Watchtower
-Stef- > Mic Qsenoch http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-121403-1dcf3a01.html
lespeutere > Obi Wan Bonogi http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-115722-5acd0061.html

Set 6: Robz888
Ambassador, Lookout, Wishing Well, Bishop, Ironworks, Monument, Trader, Venture, Expand, Peddler, Colony
-Stef- > Mic Qsenoch http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-122240-1107b9cd.html
lespeutere < Obi Wan Bonogi http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-123408-88113fe1.html

Set 7: jonts26
Crossroads, Embargo, Trade Route, Tunnel, Village, Warehouse, Workshop, Silk Road, Spice Merchant, Apprentice, !Colony
-Stef- < Mic Qsenoch http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-125145-5507300e.html
lespeutere < Obi Wan Bonogi http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-124608-2b43871b.html

Set 8: ednever
Moat, Fortune Teller, Bridge, Moneylender, Smithy, Throne Room, Festival, Jester, Vault, Fairgrounds, !Colony
-Stef- < Mic Qsenoch http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-130802-57c6fc31.html
lespeutere < Obi Wan Bonogi http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-130212-681ce733.html

Set 9: RobertJ
Chapel, Embargo, Fool's Gold, Oasis, Workshop, Thief, Throne Room, Worker's Village, Margrave, Wharf, !Colony   
-Stef- < Mic Qsenoch http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-133122-9a1fde36.html
lespeutere > Obi Wan Bonogi http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-132159-8400e30b.html

Set 10: Polk5440
Haven, Fishing Village, Scheme, Steward, Horse Traders, Mountebank, Upgrade, Festival, Library, Goons, !Colony
-Stef- > Mic Qsenoch http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-135549-70a0df7a.html
lespeutere < Obi Wan Bonogi http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-133847-859192d9.html

Set 11: Tables - not needed for tournament play.
Native Village, Talisman, Treasure Map, Worker's Village, City, Vault, Venture, Grand Market, Expand, Peddler, Colony                                 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 08:32:33 am by greatexpectations »
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Schneau

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 01:03:14 pm »
0

Set... 11? Is this now first to 6? Or just in case ties?
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theory

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 01:03:59 pm »
0

First to 6, yes.  We had a lot of good kingdoms, and they were OK with more games too.
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florrat

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 01:16:41 pm »
0

So we're trusting Obi Wan Bonogi to not watch the livestream? :D
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theory

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 01:17:47 pm »
0

I guess so!  I think the mental effort needed to do that far outweighs the benefit.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 01:20:48 pm »
+1

So we're trusting Obi Wan Bonogi to not watch the livestream? :D
He's an honest and upright guy, they're only playing for bragging rights, it should be fine.

Watno

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 01:40:17 pm »
+3

Logs from me heron and me playing the sets:
Game 1
Game 2
Game 3
Game 4
Game 5
Game 6
Game 7
Game 8
Game 9
Game 10
No log for game 11, though we we're in kind of a hurry, since heron only had 6 minutes and didn't think much.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 04:56:45 pm by Watno »
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heron

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2013, 02:03:21 pm »
0

I just can't beat you, Watno.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 03:18:08 pm by heron »
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Watno

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2013, 02:05:39 pm »
0

The thing is, I see no way what I'm doing beats the people who are in the finals, which might be why we're not there :P
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Dsell

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2013, 05:02:52 pm »
0

Congrats -Stef-!! ;D
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jonts26

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2013, 05:05:35 pm »
0

Theory will probably make a thread about it, but for now, here's the link to the kingdoms:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuZ91-6FOcw_dGIzY0duNEE5UFFXOTlRZk9FcWlMblE&usp=sharing#gid=8
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greatexpectations

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2013, 05:15:02 pm »
+1

in case anyone is interested, here is my dump of the lobby discussion during the tournament.  it starts here in game 7 i think. a couple small breaks in there to avoid getting the boot. i will gladly update if anyone else has any other portions of the chat. maybe we can piece together or break out the discussion.

Code: [Select]
15:40 WanderingWinder: probably embargoing province doesn't do a lot
15:40 jsh357: crossroads can support a little
15:40 WanderingWinder: apprentice would be bigger
15:40 greatexpectations: 5 provinces, 0 piles out for the gold medal game
15:40 jsh357: but... i still think workshop SR/tunnel is better
15:40 greatexpectations: perhaps they went with the less obvious jonts
15:40 WanderingWinder: crossroads would support the engine a lot
15:40 Dsell: crossroads can of course help that engine
15:41 Dsell: yeah what WW said
15:41 WanderingWinder: they aren't much for the rushes
15:41 jonts26: ok so if you assume a SR mirror, how do you play it
15:42 jsh357: i think i prefer workshop to either green at first
15:42 jsh357: maybe get a few warehouse/villages
15:42 WanderingWinder: 2-3 workshops, next 3 is a warehouse,, 2s are crossroads
15:42 jsh357: village being crossroads
15:42 jsh357: the nice thing is that if you go for tunnels first you can pop some golds
15:42 WanderingWinder: probably just 2 workshops
15:42 jsh357: and win a tie maybe
15:43 WanderingWinder: hrmm
15:43 WanderingWinder: well, there's lots of competing cards on 3
15:43 jsh357: tunnels before SR i mean
15:43 Polk5440: yes tunnels before SR seems good
15:43 WanderingWinder: it really depends on what they do
15:43 WanderingWinder: you have to react
15:43 Polk5440: I was thinking about if your oppoent grabs an apprentice/warehouses
15:44 jsh357: spice merchant might not be terribel to pick up in the rush? not much time for it though
15:44 jonts26: this board is super reactive
15:44 Polk5440: yes indeed
15:44 WanderingWinder: oh sure, I get that
15:44 jonts26: ok so I will say this, ignoring embargo, you can drain provinces in about 13-14 turns
15:44 jsh357: obi and lesp emptied the two alt vps
15:44 WanderingWinder: spice merchant for the rush seems too slow, though I could be wrong
15:45 WanderingWinder: for the engine, it should be excellent
15:45 WanderingWinder: it goes really nice with crossroads
15:45 jsh357: 13-14 turns?
15:45 jsh357: what, with warehouse tunnel apprentice
15:45 jonts26: ack booted
15:45 Polk5440: gman, want to play the next set, too?
15:46 jonts26: i was going to say SM could work with SR if you want to use it to thin copper and use warehouse/xroads for the draw/cycling
15:46 jsh357: yeah
15:46 jsh357: that was my idea
15:46 WanderingWinder: well, yeah, but
15:46 philosophyguy: obi wins
15:46 WanderingWinder: hmm
15:46 WanderingWinder: not good in the mirror
15:46 jonts26: did no one buy a province?
15:46 jonts26: lame
15:46 Obi Wan Bonogi: we had 1 each
15:47 jonts26: well still kind of lame
15:47 lespeutere: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-124608-2b43871b.html
15:47 greatexpectations: haha
15:47 jsh357: you were supposed to win in a way that satisfied jonts
15:47 Obi Wan Bonogi: well
15:47 Polk5440: your match is really entertaining to watch
15:47 jonts26: for real
15:47 Obi Wan Bonogi: if it played different
15:47 Obi Wan Bonogi: I wouldve had a big apprentice run
15:47 jonts26: i wanted someone to actually go apprentice/tunnel/warehouse
15:47 Obi Wan Bonogi: but the door was open for a zerg rush
15:47 jonts26: its the better strategy
15:48 jonts26: even with embargo
15:48 jsh357: round 8, same board
15:48 jonts26: do it
15:48 WanderingWinder: I will take on your 100 games of experience, jonts
15:48 Dsell: haha
15:48 Watno: funny how obiwan and les overtook stef and mic again
15:48 WanderingWinder: on some other date
15:48 jonts26: yeah today is bad
15:48 jonts26: but ill play you
15:49 greatexpectations: apprentice might be quicker
15:49 greatexpectations: but which is higher variance?
15:49 jonts26: theyre both lowish variance actually
15:49 jonts26: apprentice is probably a little easier to draw a dead hand
15:49 WanderingWinder: we ready for the next game in 3rd place match?
15:49 Obi Wan Bonogi: I wasnt initially planning on silk roads
15:49 Obi Wan Bonogi: yeah
15:49 Obi Wan Bonogi: ready
15:49 greatexpectations: i'm set when they are
15:50 greatexpectations: Game 8 -
15:50 jsh357: stef and mic still have 3 provs to go
15:50 greatexpectations: Moat, Fortune Teller, Bridge, Moneylender, Smithy, Throne Room, Festival, Jester, Vault, Fairgrounds, !Colony
15:50 greatexpectations: c/o ednever
15:50 jonts26: i actually put a lot of work into the last set to make apprentice not going away better
15:50 jsh357: no empty piles
15:50 jonts26: its actually somewhat close now
15:50 greatexpectations: yeah he had to nerf the apprentices
15:50 jonts26: before i had no embargo and a market in there
15:50 WanderingWinder: oh gosh
15:50 MrEevee: these sets really how people love alt vp
15:51 MrEevee: especially vineyards and fairgrounds
15:51 greatexpectations: you have no idea
15:51 jonts26: alt vp helps engines so theres that
15:51 MrEevee: obviously.
15:51 WanderingWinder: those two particularly are hugely advantageous to engines
15:51 WanderingWinder: others are more just diadvantageous to big money
15:51 MrEevee: is no coincidence
15:51 -Stef-: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-125145-5507300e.html
15:52 -Stef-: 5-2
15:52 jonts26: woo!
15:52 WanderingWinder: woooooooooo
15:52 jsh357: woohoo!
15:52 WanderingWinder: another game!
15:52 jsh357: make him work for it mic
15:52 greatexpectations: mickey q!
15:52 -Stef-: boohoo!
15:52 greatexpectations: Game 8 -
15:52 greatexpectations: Moat, Fortune Teller, Bridge, Moneylender, Smithy, Throne Room, Festival, Jester, Vault, Fairgrounds, !Colony
15:52 jonts26: he did apprentice!
15:52 jonts26: and won!
15:52 jonts26: huzzah
15:52 dudeabides: hahaha
15:52 jonts26: i knew not everyone would let me down
15:52 dudeabides: glad you got what you wanted
15:52 Peebles: haha
15:53 WanderingWinder: okay, so this one is an obvious engine
15:53 jsh357: this looks like a marin board
15:53 jsh357: festival, moat
15:53 jsh357: throne room
15:53 WanderingWinder: throne room, smithy
15:53 MrEevee: there is smithy as ewell
15:53 jsh357: gotta go hog wild here
15:53 WanderingWinder: just build forever
15:54 jsh357: tr-bridge for the finish maybe
15:54 WanderingWinder: well, you have to worry about getting some points, as three piles are happening in the mirror
15:54 jonts26: so brige megaturn?
15:54 greatexpectations: bridge megaturn
15:54 greatexpectations: has to be
15:54 jonts26: htat could work but its inconsistent
15:54 greatexpectations: you have time though
15:54 jonts26: but it only has to trigger once i guess
15:54 WanderingWinder: moneylender early, lots of tr, lots of draw, a couple festivals, some bridges
15:54 dudeabides: Nah... Smithy/BM ;)
15:54 WanderingWinder: everything costs 4
15:55 WanderingWinder: in a mirror, jester is nice
15:55 jsh357: bronze match is almost over
15:55 greatexpectations: jester luck could sway things
15:55 WanderingWinder: already?
15:55 jonts26: they starteda bit ago
15:55 jsh357: 3 piles at 3 or below
15:55 WanderingWinder: what's happening
15:55 jsh357: no vp bought
15:55 MrEevee: jester really drives those piles huh
15:55 Polk5440: TR down to 2
15:55 jonts26: moat is out?
15:55 jonts26: odd
15:55 MrEevee: moats are out, 2 tr's and 1 festival left
15:55 Polk5440: Festival down to 1
15:55 WanderingWinder: this means we're close to the green rush mad tipping point
15:56 jonts26: you have smithy for draw why do you need tons of moats
15:56 Polk5440: yes!
15:56 jsh357: i cant tell for sure but i think obi was going for the bridge deck
15:56 gman314: Anyone want to play set 8 with me?
15:56 Polk5440: yes
15:56 MrEevee: Obi has a nicer engine but lesp is ahead in points
15:57 jsh357: not for long
15:57 jsh357: obi just got a megaturn
15:57 MrEevee: 1 tr 1 festival left
15:57 MrEevee: obi has his deck in his hand
15:57 MrEevee: and lesp has a dud hand
15:57 dudeabides: I'm up for a game gman
15:57 WanderingWinder: He has his deck in hand - shouldn't he be able to just end and win then?
15:58 jonts26: if he can get the points he needs
15:58 jonts26: hes probably counting
15:58 Destierro: not much money
15:58 WanderingWinder: how far behind is he?
15:58 jsh357: that is a terrible, terrible hand
15:58 Destierro: either
15:58 jsh357: 4 terminals
15:58 MrEevee: 1 province and 1 fairgroudsn behind
15:58 WanderingWinder: fairgrounds is... 4 or 6 point?
15:58 jonts26: cant tell
15:58 MrEevee: 4 probably?
15:58 WanderingWinder: he probably has to count fairgrouds
15:58 jsh357: i keep lcicking info but i cant tell
15:58 jsh357: clicking*
15:58 WanderingWinder: how many bridges does OWB be able to play
15:58 MrEevee: but i guess he doesnt quite have his entire deck, and if he is missing his bridges it's critical
15:58 MrEevee: okay score is 3-12
15:58 WanderingWinder: mm
15:58 jsh357: 1 bridge
15:59 jonts26: i also am trying to scroll up to see the turn
15:59 MrEevee: obi has played tr-tr and been thinking for a long time
15:59 jonts26: doesnt work
15:59 jonts26: he probably has like bridge/jester/smihy in hand
15:59 WanderingWinder: if he can only play 1, that's unfortunate for him
15:59 MrEevee: he has plenty of buys from festivals anyways
15:59 jsh357: lesp says obi spent at urn thinking then mic was able to block his attack anyway
15:59 Dsell: wow he didn't end it
15:59 MrEevee: obi gets 2 provinces
15:59 WanderingWinder: yeah, but you need points!
15:59 jonts26: not enough buys?
15:59 greatexpectations: if he's missing his bridges he would have to draw so that he doesnt have a dud turn next time
15:59 jonts26: i guess so
16:00 WanderingWinder: what did he end up TRing?
16:00 MrEevee: fortune teller and moneylender
16:00 MrEevee: lesp had the moat
16:00 Dsell: oh ouch lesp has a bad hand and bad draw
16:00 MrEevee: this is an intense game
16:00 dudeabides: and Obi is $1 short of ending it
16:00 Destierro: obi stalled tho
16:00 greatexpectations: 2 provinces gone in gold medal game
16:00 MrEevee: obi has a slight lead now
16:00 jonts26: obi should be in fine position
16:01 MrEevee: but lesp has a gooood hand now
16:01 jsh357: 20-19
16:01 MrEevee: lesp up by 1
16:01 jonts26: oh fun
16:01 dudeabides: Obi's got it
16:01 MrEevee: yeah, obi wins this turn for sure
16:01 jsh357: yeah
16:02 jonts26: like i said, bridge engine is going to be incosnsitent but you dont need to hit every turn
16:02 MrEevee: lesp stalled like super bad.
16:02 jonts26: yeah he had 2 terrible turns in a row
16:02 WanderingWinder: the movie?
16:02 Obi Wan Bonogi: gg
16:02 Obi Wan Bonogi: brb 5 min
16:02 jonts26: so obi up 4-3!
16:03 lespeutere: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-130212-681ce733.html
16:03 MrEevee: SHRIMP FRIED RICE! SHRIMP FRIED RICE!
16:03 jsh357: guns, beer and WOMEN
16:03 blackb: no 5-3
16:03 greatexpectations: 4-3?
16:03 greatexpectations: yeah 5-3
16:03 jonts26: thats what i meant!
16:03 dudeabides: I just hope USA wins the Super Bowl tonight
16:03 greatexpectations: Set 9 -
16:03 greatexpectations: Chapel, Embargo, Fool's Gold, Oasis, Workshop, Thief, Throne Room, Worker's Village, Margrave, Wharf, !Colony
16:03 WanderingWinder: OWB isn't ready
16:03 jonts26: OBW loves fortune teller
16:03 MrEevee: stef and mic have been gone for a while again, huh?
16:04 jsh357: 3 provs left
16:04 greatexpectations: they dont need to start now, im just putting the set out
16:04 WanderingWinder: eh, only 11 minutes
16:04 jonts26: gold match has 3 prov left
16:04 MrEevee: oh okay, my bad.
16:05 mith: i'm thinking about suggesting to SphinX that we make the losers bracket final use these boards, but with about a month of study first >_>
16:05 jonts26: there are plenty more candidates you can use
16:05 greatexpectations: yup
16:05 lespeutere: OWB, ready?
16:05 greatexpectations: when we open the spreadsheet to the public you can see all of the sets
16:05 jonts26: the spreadsheet has like a billion entries
16:06 WanderingWinder: I assume he'll say when he's back and ready
16:06 greatexpectations: assuming theory wants to leave it as is, the spreadsheet has a final 36 of the sets
16:07 mith: i think we're just going to end up doing random... going to be hard enough for me to schedule a match this week as is, without a third party to give us the sets
16:07 jonts26: it also has all the entries
16:07 greatexpectations: it does
16:07 greatexpectations: but all of them is tough to sift through
16:07 jonts26: but teres like 20 or so finalists
16:07 greatexpectations: of course, you could use these sets still
16:07 greatexpectations: just use a rng day of the match
16:07 greatexpectations: dont need anyone there
16:07 greatexpectations: and you cant analyze thema ll
16:07 mith: true
16:07 Obi Wan Bonogi: back
16:07 WanderingWinder: sure you can >:)
16:08 mith: i'll hire WW to analyze them for me...
16:08 greatexpectations: not and still be awake enough to play :)
16:08 -Stef-: 5-3
16:08 -Stef-: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-130802-57c6fc31.html
16:08 yuma: eevee you up for playing this set or you want to stay here and talk it through?
16:08 Mic Qsenoch: stef is just toying with me now
16:08 jonts26: WOOO
16:08 jsh357: DS CWOO!
16:08 jonts26: more dominion!
16:08 -Stef-: nice engine here by mic
16:08 Mic Qsenoch: he just wants to play more sets
16:08 greatexpectations: Set 9 -
16:08 greatexpectations: Chapel, Embargo, Fool's Gold, Oasis, Workshop, Thief, Throne Room, Worker's Village, Margrave, Wharf, !Colony
16:08 gman314: Anyone want to play set 9?
16:09 jonts26: ok so wharf is going to rock here
16:09 mith: i would, but i'm only half paying attention here. laptop emergency
16:09 WanderingWinder: Stef went big money?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
16:09 jonts26: what madness is that!
16:09 Polk5440: yes
16:09 WanderingWinder: on THAT board?
16:09 jonts26: yeah i cant imagine anyone going BM there let alone stef
16:09 WanderingWinder: this one, this one I am not sure
16:09 MrEevee: sorry yuma cant play now, poker action :)
16:09 jonts26: maybe he did just want to play more sets
16:09 jsh357: maybe he's.. yeah
16:10 jsh357: or totally misread
16:10 greatexpectations: he still could have played the engine
16:10 yuma: you and your poker...!
16:10 jonts26: i think the new set wharf engine
16:10 jonts26: using a handful of FGs
16:10 jonts26: if its against BM, get a thief
16:10 greatexpectations: this set courtesy of RobertJ
16:10 WanderingWinder: yeah
16:10 jsh357: tr - wv - wharf - fv
16:10 Polk5440: it's lookng bad for my sets....
16:10 WanderingWinder: the thief rules out straight money I think
16:10 jonts26: yeah
16:10 WanderingWinder: and 1 margrave in the engine
16:11 jonts26: embargo makes it interesting
16:11 jsh357: lots of FG interaction at any rate
16:11 MrEevee: got to do something to pay the bills :(
16:11 Watno: yay i win
16:11 jonts26: but yeah 1 margrave is probably good
16:11 WanderingWinder: chapel down or no?
16:11 jsh357: no
16:11 WanderingWinder: also workshop or no?
16:11 jsh357: that encourages the thief
16:11 jonts26: mmm if you need to bypass embargo get a chapel
16:11 jonts26: maybe use chapel and embargo provinces hard
16:11 MrEevee: lesp went for the chapel, obi didnt
16:11 jsh357: but then.. maybe you want to lure out a thief
16:11 jonts26: stupid D/C
16:11 WanderingWinder: eh, if you're playing engine, thief isn't really a problem
16:11 mith: FG gone turn 7
16:12 jonts26: yeah i probably skip thief in an engine mirror
16:12 WanderingWinder: you have so many actions, and you can just thief them back
16:12 WanderingWinder: if you really need to
16:12 jsh357: i'm still not sure about chapelling
16:12 WanderingWinder: I think I like a workshop, too
16:12 jsh357: with enough wharf draw maybe it doesn't matter
16:12 jonts26: i like WS
16:13 jonts26: i'd get WS and then you can get a chapel at some point without slowind down
16:13 MrEevee: lesp got a thief
16:13 MrEevee: obi DOESNT have a chapel
16:13 jsh357: it could pay off
16:13 jsh357: since he could alwaysh it FG..
16:13 jsh357: oh i see hy he did it
16:14 WanderingWinder: hrm, but it should be a lot better for the player with the chapel
16:14 jsh357: he only got 3 of the fg
16:14 jsh357: so he needs to steal it to stick with that strategy
16:14 WanderingWinder: what was he doing that he only got 3 fg?
16:14 jsh357: but man, i'd just get gold
16:14 mith: and with his slim deck he's going to be able to tr-thief a lot
16:14 WanderingWinder: he has a huge lead on engine component?
16:14 jsh357: looks like obi has this one to me
16:15 jonts26: yeah i dont think you need to go too heavy into FG
16:15 jonts26: thief them if the other player gets too many
16:15 WanderingWinder: yeah
16:15 jsh357: he hit obi copper twice
16:15 greatexpectations: if obi wins thats the set
16:15 jonts26: winning the wharf split seems all important
16:15 greatexpectations: USA!
16:15 WanderingWinder: you want to focus on the engine
16:15 Dsell: wow lesp getting very unlucky with thief
16:15 WanderingWinder: well, that's what you'd expect really
16:15 Polk5440: not chapeling helps that
16:15 WanderingWinder: this will be the match?
16:16 jonts26: it would be
16:16 greatexpectations: it is 5-3 for both
16:16 greatexpectations: first to 6 wins
16:16 jsh357: of course now obi has 7 fg and 5 copper
16:16 jsh357: so maybe he can hit fg now
16:16 greatexpectations: stef and owb can both end it
16:16 jsh357: but it's too late
16:16 WanderingWinder: did anyone get a margrave?
16:16 Polk5440: lesp
16:16 mith: got one FG
16:17 mith: and a blank on the other
16:17 jsh357: oh nice
16:17 jsh357: he puleld off a double prov turn
16:17 mith: and obi gets a thief now
16:17 WanderingWinder: can we show this game to chwhite next time he says thief is totally and utterly useless?
16:17 jonts26: haha yes
16:17 jonts26: i dont see how you can put it behind scout
16:17 greatexpectations: to be fair, this set was probably designed to make theif stand out a little
16:17 mith: this isn't going to be a good example, the way lesp is hitting coppers :)
16:17 Watno: double miss again
16:18 WanderingWinder: I mean, scout is nice for scrying pool, don't get me wrong, but...
16:18 jsh357: but it's interesting
16:18 jonts26: scout is only nice for SP
16:18 jsh357: the one fg he DID get
16:18 mith: i think lesp has this though
16:18 WanderingWinder: yeah
16:18 jsh357: mattered a lot
16:18 mith: yeah
16:18 jsh357: scout is great with throne room
16:18 jsh357: if you are marin
16:18 WanderingWinder: anything's great with anything if you're Marin
16:18 mith: booted for inactivity, lame
16:19 WanderingWinder: he'd pair curse with ruined village and make some magic
16:19 jsh357: i am surprised lesp dug out of this hole
16:19 MrEevee: it's a shame marin isn't a native english speaker, watching dominion videos from him would truly be something
16:19 philosophyguy: agreed with MrEevee
16:19 jonts26: marin is very entertaiing to play against
16:19 Watno: i think it would be great to watch anyway
16:20 WanderingWinder: I think I'm going on 3.5 hours without getting booted
16:20 mith: obi had to go duchies, and lesp is getting double province again... 5-4
16:20 Watno: french accent dominion commentary sounds fun
16:20 jonts26: ive gotten booted twice
16:20 jsh357: i knew a guy called marin when i tutored english for second-language students
16:20 jsh357: he was pretty cool
16:20 greatexpectations: marin plays for chelsea
16:20 greatexpectations: always threw me off when i heard the name
16:21 WanderingWinder: I don't understand how gold match is going so long...
16:21 WanderingWinder: this should be about the fastest set you see...
16:22 WanderingWinder: 5-4?
16:22 mith: yep
16:22 jsh357: obi suicided
16:22 Obi Wan Bonogi: :P
16:22 Dsell: hmm
16:22 Obi Wan Bonogi: brb
16:22 WanderingWinder: basically terribly lost at the time anyway?
16:22 mith: down 25
16:22 jsh357: does that mean lesp is darth vader
16:22 mith: with 2 provinces left
16:23 lespeutere: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-132159-8400e30b.html
16:24 greatexpectations: oh man
16:24 greatexpectations: Set 10 -
16:24 greatexpectations: Haven, Fishing Village, Scheme, Steward, Horse Traders, Mountebank, Upgrade, Festival, Library, Goons, !Colony
16:24 MrEevee: interesting!
16:25 jsh357: oh that looks fun
16:25 WanderingWinder: yours?
16:25 greatexpectations: props to our friend polk
16:25 Obi Wan Bonogi: back
16:25 dudeabides: fun set
16:25 WanderingWinder: no comments
16:25 Polk5440: :)
16:26 jonts26: 3 prov left in the gold match
16:26 mith: "i don't like this at all"
16:26 mith: haha
16:26 Polk5440: hehehe
16:26 mith: lesp drew 2 on turn 3
16:26 WanderingWinder: shhhh guys
16:27 WanderingWinder: eh
16:27 dudeabides: comment
16:27 theory: well they aren't in the lobby now, right?
16:27 jonts26: theory's back!
16:27 WanderingWinder: I guess I need to go ingest some nutrition
16:27 WanderingWinder: the thing is, they can be at any moment
16:27 theory: true
16:27 dudeabides: I think opening Goons/Mountebank is really strong with this one
16:27 theory: hi dsell
16:27 jonts26: im planning on ingesting nothing nutritious today
16:27 jsh357: man i love library
16:28 WanderingWinder: I was referring to brownies
16:28 mith: we should do a -Stef- vs. the forum match sometime
16:28 jsh357: i had fries for lunch, those are vegetables
16:28 mith: (or WW, or any of the level 50s really)
16:28 WanderingWinder: yeah, 'cause his games don't last long enough anyway
16:28 mith: :)
16:28 jsh357: wow i just got booted for the server being full
16:28 Dsell: hi theory!
16:29 WanderingWinder: I have had full server problems before
16:29 jsh357: man how is that gold game still going
16:29 jsh357: must be close
16:29 WanderingWinder: I don't understand
16:29 jonts26: 2 piles out 3 prov left
16:30 WanderingWinder: what other pile? Wharf? Worker's Village?
16:30 airza: beedoop
16:30 jonts26: wharf has to be
16:30 WanderingWinder: I assume fg is the first
16:30 jonts26: wharf/fg would be my guess
16:30 mith: yeah
16:31 -Stef-: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-133122-9a1fde36.html
16:31 -Stef-: mic wins another
16:31 -Stef-: 5-4 now?
16:31 Polk5440: !
16:31 Mic Qsenoch: yeah
16:31 -Stef-: very unlucky last turn :(
16:31 Dsell: Wow, great job mic
16:31 Mic Qsenoch: i luck into winning this one
16:32 -Stef-: I could draw everything but one, and that was my 8th buy
16:32 Dsell: gold and bronze matches are both exciting. :)
16:32 WanderingWinder: I so had that the other day
16:32 Mic Qsenoch: which leaves him with absolutely no good options either
16:32 WanderingWinder: 5-4 both places
16:32 -Stef-: ah
16:32 WanderingWinder: duchy was the second pile
16:32 -Stef-: who's ahead there?
16:32 jonts26: interesting
16:32 jsh357: amazing they split fg even
16:32 WanderingWinder: Obi Wan Bonogi
16:32 MrEevee: this is some great dominion entertainment!
16:32 -Stef-: set 10?
16:32 jsh357: but obi won 7 fgs and lesp still won the game
16:32 greatexpectations: Set 10 -
16:32 greatexpectations: Haven, Fishing Village, Scheme, Steward, Horse Traders, Mountebank, Upgrade, Festival, Library, Goons, !Colony
16:32 jonts26: if mic q comes back it will be the greatest of all time
16:33 Mic Qsenoch: you just jinxed me jonts
16:33 theory: red sox-levels of greatitude?
16:33 jonts26: even better
16:33 theory: no jinxing plz
16:33 jonts26: jimmy fallon will make 2 terrible movies about it
16:33 WanderingWinder: taking that spot away from the 13 game affair I had out of that tiebreak?
16:33 theory: you heard the man
16:33 KUKUKUKU: co muflik?
16:33 jsh357: this board looks great
16:33 jonts26: ok so i think its actually straightforward
16:34 jonts26: library/goons engine
16:34 jsh357: looks like a library game
16:34 WanderingWinder: yeah
16:34 jsh357: tons of support for it
16:34 jonts26: get a steward to trash and maybe a MB to be annoying
16:34 WanderingWinder: 2 stewards into it
16:34 jsh357: HT is good too
16:34 jonts26: HT is ok
16:34 WanderingWinder: probably ignore mountebank even
16:34 WanderingWinder: HT... eh, I want my actions
16:34 jsh357: i would ignore mbank for sure
16:34 jonts26: I'd rather have less junk to discard to HT
16:34 dudeabides: HT eats an action
16:34 jonts26: so trashing is better
16:34 Watno: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-133351-6e59887f.html
16:34 WanderingWinder: lot of FV, Festival also nice, but...
16:35 Dsell: Lesp and obi wan aren't really buying library
16:35 WanderingWinder: uh, scheme to get you libraries back
16:35 MrEevee: lesp is ignoring MB, obi got one
16:35 jsh357: they didn't get festivals either
16:35 jonts26: get 2 schemes
16:35 Dsell: or festivals for that matter
16:35 jonts26: put back library/FV
16:35 Dsell: ninja'd by eevee
16:35 jsh357: you know i guess
16:35 WanderingWinder: 2? I bet you could cut 1
16:35 heron: Misclick/Miscount threw the game away for me
16:35 jsh357: there's a lot of competition at 5-6
16:35 jonts26: maybe
16:35 jonts26: 1 for sure
16:35 WanderingWinder: fishing villages established
16:35 jonts26: missing a library would be painful
16:35 WanderingWinder: yeah
16:35 jsh357: so maybe just goons/fv/library
16:35 jonts26: steward to trash
16:35 jsh357: yeah
16:36 jonts26: get festival if you need more actions
16:36 WanderingWinder: haven can fill that role, but scheme is better
16:36 WanderingWinder: but havens off spare buys also help seed the next turn
16:36 WanderingWinder: and yeah, definitely steward to trash
16:36 jonts26: thats true
16:36 jsh357: they both went upgrade
16:36 jsh357: it's good, maybe you want 2 and turn one in to goons
16:36 WanderingWinder: eh, upgrade seems weaker here to me
16:37 WanderingWinder: eventually so dead
16:37 perenjard: back
16:37 jsh357: unless they get mbank, but yes
16:37 jonts26: yeah and it only trashes 1 instead of 2
16:37 jsh357: you wouldn't want a lot of them
16:37 jonts26: steward is the star trasher
16:37 jonts26: also upgrade competes with the good stuff
16:37 WanderingWinder: yeah, just steward
16:37 jonts26: i'd probably open steward/steward here
16:37 WanderingWinder: there are enough actions you don't NEED your trashing to be non-terminal
16:37 jonts26: favorite opening ever
16:37 WanderingWinder: I would definitely open steward/steward, look to pick up an FV quick
16:37 greatexpectations: scheme steward might beat double steward here no?
16:38 jsh357: i would fv/steward?
16:38 jonts26: scheme/steward is higher variance
16:38 greatexpectations: right
16:38 Watno: i went fv/steward/steward
16:38 WanderingWinder: mmm, scheme/steward maybe
16:38 jsh357: but really almost anything with steward is good
16:38 greatexpectations: but you dont need that second steward down the road
16:38 jonts26: steward HAS ot be one of your opens
16:38 jsh357: lesp went ht/stward
16:38 greatexpectations: yes
16:38 jsh357: which i think was a mistake
16:38 WanderingWinder: ht?
16:38 WanderingWinder: ugh, no
16:38 jonts26: nope
16:38 jonts26: how about a 5/2 open
16:38 mith: to be fair, it didn't help that his steward missed the shuffle
16:38 jsh357: 5/2 would be different
16:38 jonts26: upgrade then or stil steward
16:39 greatexpectations: ..cry?
16:39 Dsell: obi wins
16:39 WanderingWinder: haven and... steward
16:39 dudeabides: I think that Obi's Mountebank was huge
16:39 jonts26: yeah
16:39 philosophyguy: yay 'murica :)
16:39 greatexpectations: yeah haven steward
16:39 jonts26: or MB/haven open?
16:39 mith: 'grats obi
16:39 Polk5440: congrats, Obi!!!
16:39 jonts26: nah steward/haven still
16:39 lespeutere: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-133847-859192d9.html
16:39 jonts26: USA USA USA USA USA
16:39 philosophyguy: gg to both players
16:39 Peebles: Congrats, Obi
16:39 jonts26: great series guys
16:39 jsh357: i can imagine it now
16:39 ceadiertani: Aaaa we got booted.
16:39 rrenaud: i don't understand why the first $5 buy weren't mountebank
16:39 jsh357: DS Con 2013
16:39 WanderingWinder: mm, maybe mb; you may well get an mb if they are going light on their trashing
16:39 jsh357: lesp shows up with ab and of german goons
16:39 Obi Wan Bonogi: thanks, good games Les
16:40 dudeabides: rrenaud, even
16:40 Watno: well played anyway
16:40 stefan_k: Congrats wp!
16:40 Obi Wan Bonogi: well
16:40 WanderingWinder: coppers cuold run there
16:40 Obi Wan Bonogi: I was kinda going meta
16:40 MrEevee: good job obw
16:40 Obi Wan Bonogi: expecting him to get MB
16:40 MrEevee: oeb
16:40 Obi Wan Bonogi: maybe he didnt bc he saw I didnt
16:40 MrEevee: owb >_>
16:40 lespeutere: cause the game was over at that point already
16:41 jsh357: stef and mic q are standing 4-3
16:41 lespeutere: maybe not at that point
16:41 jsh357: or was it 5-4
16:41 mith: 5-4
16:42 Obi Wan Bonogi: well ty stef, Id been number 1 on leaderboard and never did double steward opening until he showed it to me
16:42 lespeutere: but when my steward missed t3/4
16:42 Polk5440: scheme!
16:42 Obi Wan Bonogi: only need one scheme
16:42 Obi Wan Bonogi: IMO
16:42 jonts26: yeah we discussed that
16:42 jonts26: one seems enough
16:42 jonts26: just need one library to kick it
16:42 lespeutere: I'm just too tired to play something sensible at the moment
16:43 WanderingWinder: I think you can get away with just one, especially if you're gonna get havens off free buys
16:43 WanderingWinder: well not free buys
16:43 WanderingWinder: but spare ones
16:43 greatexpectations: i dont think you want that many havens actually
16:43 greatexpectations: conflicts with scheming the library
16:43 WanderingWinder: well, sort of
16:44 WanderingWinder: but the cards I'd want to hold over would be FV, Festival
16:44 jonts26: just haven the havens
16:44 WanderingWinder: I'd take a couple
16:44 Obi Wan Bonogi: I love haven
16:44 jonts26: if you dont want to increase next turn hand size
16:44 Obi Wan Bonogi: hard to have too many
16:45 jonts26: its been almost 4 hours
16:45 Obi Wan Bonogi: yeah that took forever
16:45 Obi Wan Bonogi: in a good way
16:45 Peebles: I played someone on goko yesterday, and before long their deck 10 havens, 3 estates, 1 spice merchant
16:45 Obi Wan Bonogi: but I have to run
16:45 Peebles: I'd say that's too many havens
16:45 WanderingWinder: it's more not enough other stuff
16:45 mith: heh
16:45 Obi Wan Bonogi: see ya guys
16:45 WanderingWinder: later!
16:45 philosophyguy: Yo dawg, i heard you like havens, so i havened a haven so you can haven a havenů
16:45 jonts26: the havens rarely get in the way, but if you prioritize them over important things thats a problem
16:46 WanderingWinder: 8 provinces, no piles in gold game
16:46 mith: all goons all the time?
16:46 WanderingWinder: what do you mean by that?
16:46 mith: well, the 8 provinces is no surprise
16:47 WanderingWinder: you want one goons quickly, but you want to make sure you can draw most everything as you're getting more
16:47 mith: no piles is, though, with FV
16:47 WanderingWinder: that's true
16:47 WanderingWinder: well, but there's more important expensive stuff
16:47 mith: true
16:47 WanderingWinder: so the FVs don't really need to run all that fast
16:47 mith: don't need that many FVs to have enough actions
16:47 heron: is there any way watno and I could acquire the last set? I have to go soon and we want to finish them off
16:47 jonts26: a pile is out
16:48 mith: what are the odds on it being haven? :)
16:48 WanderingWinder: it's duchy
16:48 jonts26: Set 11 - Native Village, Talisman, Treasure Map, Worker's Village, City, Vault, Venture, Grand Market, Expand, Peddler, Colony
16:48 heron: thanks!
16:48 Watno: troll
16:48 heron: oh
16:48 jonts26: no thats really it
16:48 WanderingWinder: he was calling me a troll
16:48 jonts26: oh
16:48 heron: oh
16:48 jonts26: that makes more sense
16:49 heron: so confusing
16:49 mith: it's super bowl sunday, i need some prop bets
16:49 WanderingWinder: I assume
16:49 greatexpectations: i can confirm that is the last set
16:49 Watno: not really
16:49 Watno: ok sry then^^
16:49 WanderingWinder: yeah, but I meant jokingly
16:49 WanderingWinder: similar to how I jokingly said that duchy was the empty pile
16:50 jsh357: if there are still 8 provinces, that might mean someone has a big lead on chips
16:50 WanderingWinder: I bet not
16:50 lespeutere: vv
16:50 Supreme Stratego Mittens: xword coming?
16:50 lespeutere: if one's far ahead the other may need to dip into green
16:50 greatexpectations: if they are building a big goons engine they will only dip to provinces once piling out is a danger
16:51 greatexpectations: or that
16:51 MrEevee: got booted, why always me
16:52 WanderingWinder: 4 hours and I let my guard down and got booted
16:52 Polk5440: so much for the transcript....
16:52 Obi Wan Bonogi: whats status in finals?
16:52 MrEevee: this lobby was too small for the both of us so they booted us both?
16:52 jsh357: 8 prov, 1 pile empty
16:52 Obi Wan Bonogi: whats score?
16:53 jsh357: can't tell
16:53 jonts26: 5-4 stef
16:54 Peebles: how do you see how many piles are left?
16:54 Obi Wan Bonogi: well, I cant stick around much, but I feel like I am missing a lot of good conversation about some really interesting boards, so please transfer some summaries to the forums so I can catch up later, thanks!
16:55 mith: you just missed WW talking about how he'd open haven/haven
16:55 WanderingWinder: well, it wasn't a constant transcript anyway - I had to go into games at some point
16:55 Obi Wan Bonogi: seriously?
16:55 mith: (no)
16:55 Obi Wan Bonogi: lol
16:55 WanderingWinder: psh, you mean haven/haven/haven/haven/haven/haven/haven/haven/haven
16:55 jsh357: to see piles, go to http://dominion.isotropic.org/games
16:56 WanderingWinder: gotta leave the 10th one though, that's too many
16:56 Watno: oops, forgot log^^
16:56 jsh357: and ctrl f for sted
16:56 jsh357: stef
16:56 jsh357: oh did the game end
16:56 jsh357: it's not on there now
16:56 Peebles: I guess so
16:56 jonts26: they arent in the lobby
16:57 Peebles: they fell into another dimension!
16:57 Dsell: I am really excited to see this gamestate. They're either playing really slow and deliberately or there are going to be insane scores
16:57 jonts26: they just dominioned that hard
16:57 jonts26: generally these games end up piling out
16:57 Peebles: maybe they made a truce
16:57 Peebles: and are just fucking with us
16:57 Dsell: vote: happily ever after
16:57 jonts26: before the scores get crazy
16:57 jsh357: like in searching for bobby fischer
16:57 jsh357: they agreed to a draw
16:58 Dsell: they'll each split a small expansion
16:58 Dsell: *get a small expansion
16:58 jsh357: haha
16:58 philosophyguy: You get the Dame Knights, and I get the Sirs
16:58 jsh357: good thing guilds is coming up
16:58 Mic Qsenoch: stef wins!
16:58 -Stef-: WOOHOO! :)
16:58 jonts26: congrats
16:58 -Stef-: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-135549-70a0df7a.html
16:58 Peebles: Congrats!
16:58 Watno: congrats
16:58 stefan_k: Congratulations!!!!
16:58 Dsell: Nice, stef!
16:58 mith: congrats stef!
16:59 Peebles: All hail -Stef-
16:59 Polk5440: congrats
16:59 MrEevee: grats
16:59 Mic Qsenoch: greatest dominion player ever
16:59 lespeutere: grats
16:59 Mic Qsenoch: undoubtedly
16:59 Dsell: hahahaha looks like my prediction about high scores was right. :P
16:59 Peebles: hahaha
16:59 Peebles: 17 to 3?
16:59 -Stef-: well last turn I stopped playing
16:59 -Stef-: but yes we never really started scoring
16:59 Mic Qsenoch: i also forgot to look at piles and made it easy for him to end it
17:00 Mic Qsenoch: there's never time to score in these games
17:00 -Stef-: I don't think that would have mattered much
17:00 Mic Qsenoch: all three piles
17:00 jonts26: also both opened steward/steward
17:00 jonts26: love it
17:00 Mic Qsenoch: no it wouldn't have mattered at all
17:00 -Stef-: Mic had a dead turn near the end
17:00 -Stef-: end then it was over
17:00 jonts26: dead turn will kill that kind of game
17:00 -Stef-: yup
17:00 Mic Qsenoch: all these boards are way too fast
17:00 Mic Qsenoch: well not all
17:00 -Stef-: no we had some sea hags
17:00 Mic Qsenoch: but a lot of them
17:00 Obi Wan Bonogi: they were pretty fast
17:00 -Stef-: true
17:00 Schneau: Congrats Stef!
17:00 Mic Qsenoch: who won bronze?
17:00 Schneau: Last buy in the tournament: Curse
17:00 Watno: thats why it took 4 hours^^
17:00 jonts26: obi
17:01 -Stef-: Obi vs lespeutere?
17:01 lespeutere: OWB
17:01 Obi Wan Bonogi: in terms of scoring
17:01 Peebles: Obi
17:01 mith: obi, 6-4
17:01 Mic Qsenoch: congrats obi
17:01 lespeutere: played poorly
17:01 -Stef-: ah 6-4 here too
17:01 lespeutere: (me)
17:01 Obi Wan Bonogi: I kept thinking I would build up massive province buy turn but the option for piling was always better
17:01 jonts26: in case you guys are wondering this is the last set
17:01 jonts26: Native Village, Talisman, Treasure Map, Worker's Village, City, Vault, Venture, Grand Market, Expand, Peddler, Colony
17:01 Schneau: GE: what was the last board?
17:01 mith: they should play the last set four player
17:01 mith: >_>
17:01 Peebles: haha
17:01 Mic Qsenoch: ha
17:01 greatexpectations: its in the thread
17:02 jonts26: you should all have access to the google doc with all the info on it
17:02 WanderingWinder: where is said google doc?
17:02 greatexpectations: did you make it public already?
17:02 jonts26: oh no
17:03 jonts26: ummm hold on
17:03 Obi Wan Bonogi: I will post my thoughts on the games later, pretty interesting boards, congrats Stef! see ya
17:03 WanderingWinder: well, post it in the forums
17:03 WanderingWinder: I must be off
17:03 TheDReeve: McD is in
17:03 -Stef-: pff quite tired actually now
17:03 Mic Qsenoch: yeah
17:03 Mic Qsenoch: congrats sted
17:03 Mic Qsenoch: stef*
17:03 Mic Qsenoch: see ya
17:03 Peebles: me too, -Stef-. ran out of beer two hours ago
17:03 greatexpectations: we will post the doc in the forums later, no worries
17:03 jonts26: for now, heres hte link
17:03 jonts26: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuZ91-6FOcw_dGIzY0duNEE5UFFXOTlRZk9FcWlMblE&usp=sharing
17:03 jonts26: ill put it on the forum
17:04 greatexpectations: there will be a thread dedicated to the sets anyway
17:04 rrenaud: jonts: you might want to make it read only for most people
17:04 rrenaud: only you + theory + ge can edit, for example
17:05 -Stef-: thanks rrenaud / ge / theory
17:05 greatexpectations: im pretty sure it is set to view only for public
17:05 -Stef-: I really like this setup for the finals
17:05 rrenaud: stef, i did nothing ;P
17:05 jonts26: oh i thought it was
17:05 -Stef-: oh sorry
17:06 -Stef-: thanks a lot jonts ;)
17:06 mith: no one submitted a pearl diver set even after the reveal that no one had done so?
17:06 mith: i'm disappointed
17:06 -Stef-: I never submitted my set
17:06 jonts26: i think it was too late then
17:07 mith: ah
17:07 Peebles: mith, is the loser bracket over?
17:07 Peebles: rats division
17:07 mith: i think we're playing the final tomorrow
17:07 theory: hello!
17:07 theory: congrats stef :)
17:07 mith: tomorrow or tuesday. probably.
17:08 jonts26: congrats stef ;) ftfy
17:08 -Stef-: thanks theory
17:09 jonts26: ok 4 hours of watching people play dominion is enough for me
17:09 jonts26: later
17:09 -Stef-: yup can imagine that
17:09 theory: PMed you a list of questions
17:09 -Stef-: 4 hours of playing is enough for me :)
17:09 theory: also congrats OWB
17:09 theory: coming from behind for the win
17:10 -Stef-: ok theory will answer you but not today
17:10 -Stef-: enough dominion for now
17:10 -Stef-: thanks everyone & cu
17:11 theory: no need for today
17:11 theory: take care
17:11 Watno: cya everyone
17:11 lespeutere: I'm uploading videos atm, but am not sure whether I can finish tonight
17:12 lespeutere: most of you have seen them already, anyway
17:12 lespeutere: cu
17:12 Forge!!!: wow, is it still going on?
17:13 theory: just wrapped up
17:13 Forge!!!: ah ok

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2013, 05:29:19 pm »
0

Congrats -Stef- !

SirPeebles

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2013, 05:31:38 pm »
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Congrats to lespeutere for the being the only one to bring -Stef- to the final game.
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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2013, 05:51:43 pm »
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Well done, Stef!
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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2013, 06:00:11 pm »
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Ah, I am so excited my set was used! (And very sorry that MicQ got reeeeally bad luck with it.)
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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2013, 06:17:43 pm »
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Wow, if not for the vagaries of seeding I could have made the finals.   :'(

(not intended to be a factual statement).
 
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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2013, 06:23:09 pm »
0

Congrats to pretty much everyone involved. Been an excellent tournament!
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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2013, 06:39:41 pm »
0

Set 10: Polk5440
Haven, Fishing Village, Scheme, Steward, Horse Traders, Mountebank, Upgrade, Festival, Library, Goons, !Colony
-Stef- > Mic Qsenoch http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-135549-70a0df7a.html
lespeutere < Obi Wan Bonogi http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-133847-859192d9.html

Set 11: Tables - not needed for tournament play.
Haven, Fishing Village, Scheme, Steward, Horse Traders, Mountebank, Upgrade, Festival, Library, Goons, !Colony


So Tables and Polk5440 came up with exactly the same set?  And they were going to be played back-to-back?  Craziness ;)


edit: I messed up the quote thing, and I'm too lazy to fix it.  This is in reply to theory's post with the results/kingdoms.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 06:42:33 pm by dudeabides »
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theory

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2013, 06:41:57 pm »
+2

Fixed!
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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2013, 07:19:19 pm »
+1

Yup, that original one wasn't a set I submitted :P. Kinda actually surprised to see one of my sets on there, even if it was game 11's and didn't get played. On the other hand, my kingdom could have been the tense decider game, so maybe game 11 was a good place to be ^.^

Anywho...
So theory kindly sent me the logs of the games, spoiler free, so I could read the games without everything being spoilt. He even threw in a dummy link at the bottom so I wouldn't know how many games there were, so props to him for that. He also suggested I write up comments/thoughts on the game, so why not?
(Disclaimer: I'm far from an expert. No doubt my naivety compared to these guys will shine through in a few statements I make in this post)

Game 1:
It's hard for me to tell, but it looks like Stef got a little luckier here. He capitalised on it well, of course, but blocking every single curse seemed quite a good outcome for him. Okay, when it got past about the midgame he had enough Wishing Wells that it was likely to block them, but still.
Strategy wise, I really like Stef's deck. Apothecary into Wishing Well is pretty nice. It looks like Mic went a little too heavy into Fishing Villages in my opinion - with only 6 terminals (some of which weren't grabbed until very late) it doesn't seem like you'd want so many.

Game 2:
Dat Hoard. Turns 11 and 13 (for Stef) showcase a brilliant strategy that I hadn't seen coming at all - Hoard to get a Gold with a Duchy, then Apprentice them both for a total of +7 cards non-terminally. Coupled with the Fool's Golds, I think it's really clever. Nice to see a game where Sea Hag doesn't even stop the Fool's Gold rush. My personal inclination on this board would have been to go a little more heavily down the Sea Hag, but with Lookout and Apprentice, it would have probably been a bad move.

Game 3:
This is one I really would have probably screwed up, as I'd have likely gone Hamlet/Tactician on a 2/5. Stef gets a little extra luck on turn 4 with a double Estate with his Remake, and along with his 2 Hamlets, I think that puts him in a much stronger position early. I have to say their early economies are alarmingly small... not a single treasure gained by turn 5. Of course the engine starts coming together around turn 7, as the Tunnels start kicking in, and then the engines just carry them through to the end. I also kinda expected more 2 Province turns than there was, with Banks and Golds and stuff.

Game 4:
Everyone hates Tournament, and I think Mic's quick Province on turn 5 followed by Followers on turn 7 really set the tone for this one. I think Stef played very will in return (good use of Trade Route for example), but Mic's early Province was a real boon, and he followed up on it extremely well with Followers and Trusty Steed and solid play in general.

Game 5:
Is it bad that the first thing I did after noticing the openings was check if Stef bought a Herbalist, and when I saw he did, check how much he bought them for? (if you're wondering the answer is, uh, kinda $3, but he gained them with HoP).
Anyways, actually reading the kingdom now, the 5/2 opening is interesting. I think I prefer Stef's to Mic's here, and like Stef's way of getting the extra buy too. Stef's turn 9 trashing the Silver gain is pretty surprising... I guess the silver would get in the way is the thought, so it's probably a good play, but it's not one I'd have considered myself, which is why Stef's the pro I guess. Mic does the same trick in turn 15 as well.

Game 6:
A slightly sad game which showed potential, but then Ambassador and RNG decided to gatecrash the party.

Game 7
At first glance of the openings, I don't really know what either of them are going for. Spice Merchant? Here? When there's Workshop/Silk Road with Tunnels? And... why are there SEVENTEEN golds in the trash? SEVENTEEN? Seriously, what the heck happened in the game? My curiosity is very much piqued.
As I read, I notice some strangeness in the strategies here... you don't want to discard your victory cards to Warehouse (necessarily) because Crossroads. And Apprentice into Warehouse (w/Tunndels) hopefully lets you gain more golds than you trashed from the bigger hand, not to mention the bigger hand itself, so that possibly explains the seventeen Golds in the trash. Still haven't seen the Spice Merchant master plan though...
Okay, so looking at the engine they built at the end, yeah, I see what was going on with the Spice Merchants now - mainly to trash all their Coppers, but both occasionally used them on Golds (not a great move, but it helped when they needed the draw/buy). A weird game I'd have almost certainly misplayed.

Game 8
A little weird... Stef played straight big money with Vault? Interesting choice. Mic gets pretty lucky firing his megaturn off, drawing a second Throne Room after discarding to Stef's Vault. So actually, maybe Stef made the right call and got unlucky, or maybe Mic didn't get lucky, and would have likely fired off sooner? Hard to say.

Game 9:
Power board here... chapel, Wharf and Fool's Gold notably, but some other powerful cards as well, and Embargo even presents itself as an interesting option (which neither seemed to take, ah well).
Stef taking Margrave over Wharf is interesting... I guess the handsize damage is pretty interesting, as well as the immediate bigger hand. Guess with the rush for Fool's Gold, that won out over Wharf's general better power.

Game 10:
Haha, two double Steward openings. It makes sense, but it's a little unusual, not a normal terminal to double open with. That said, if that's the best opening here... I wonder, is this kingdom not too luck dependent for the final? Eh...
Mic gets slightly luckier in the opening. Then both build powerful engines in the face of Mountebank, which is pretty impressive. Stef goes on to win the game, and the tournament.

Contrats Stef!
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 07:20:28 pm by Tables »
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But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2013, 07:22:23 pm »
+15

So here are my thoughts on the final match:

Game 1
Apothecary, Colony, Envoy, Expand, Fishing Village, Goons, Hoard, Market, Menagerie, Platinum, Potion, Vineyard, Wishing Well♦, and Young Witch

After he opens Potion, I know he's going Apoth/Wishing Well, but I decide to open Young Witch/FV anyway because I think Menageries are the better source of draw here and YW should help that, and even though I don't expect to Curse him a lot, I should get a few in, right? WRONG! My YW never hits at all even though he doesn't have his third Wishing Well until turn 11. To make up for this, I have some very lucky turns with Menagerie despite all the coppers and whatever floating around my deck. We both get our decks built up nicely, and I have a good points lead. He brings the game into three pile range on turn 16, but I don't have a Menagerie in hand and my turn 16 is dead. He gets the big draw turn 17 and ends it with the win. I'm not at all sure which draw engine is better (not that they're mutually exclusive). Apothecary could potentially let you soak up Copper buys earlier but that never comes into play. I'm not disappointed in how I play this one, although I'm sure there are lots of little mistakes throughout.

Game 2
Apprentice, Bazaar, Colony, Fool's Gold, Hoard, Lookout, Platinum, Remodel, Sea Hag, Shanty Town, Warehouse, and Woodcutter

This game I am disappointed in how I play. I open Lookout/Remodel to fight his Sea Hag and win the FG split. I get too focused on the FG, some of my Remodel plays should definitely be for engine pieces (another Remodel, Woodcutter, Shanty or Warehouse?). I think he accidentally trashes his Sea Hag? I wanted to do Apprentice/Hoard as well, but thought I should take Platinum when I got the chance, probably the second Platinum is a mistake and should be Hoard or Apprentice. This game could go either way with different draws, but I don't think I gave myself the best chance here and I failed to convert early momentum into the win. Not something you can afford to do against -Stef-. I am also a little afraid of Apprentice draw decks because they can be so inconsistent.

Game 3
Adventurer, Bank, Hamlet, Inn, Menagerie, Monument, Remake, Tactician, Tunnel, and Watchtower

I don't have much to say here, this board is too fast for my mind to handle. I know there are misplays I'm making that don't let me fire as quickly as him, but I honestly couldn't say what they were specifically (I green too early?). I am starting to feel discouraged at this point, I think during most of Stef's turn I just sort of walk around and don't watch him play.

Game 4
Bazaar, Courtyard, Fairgrounds, Golem, King's Court, Mint, Oracle, Potion, Rabble, Tournament, and Trade Route

Hey look, a Tournament game where I win Followers on Turn 7, neat.

Game 5
Caravan, Fishing Village, Herbalist, Horn of Plenty, Mandarin, Philosopher's Stone, Potion, Royal Seal, Trading Post, Vineyard, Watchtower♦, and Young Witch

Another game where small misplays have large repercussions. There are at least two turns where I should get a Potion and topdeck it with Watchtower, but I don't. I also overtrashed with Trading Post one turn to prevent me from making the Potion/Watchtower play. Also, I think at one point I could have set up a chain of buying Herbalists and topdecking Potions. Also the Mandarin thing which I don't notice at all. Just silly stuff to not notice/forget. This prevents me from winning the Vineyards split. I don't actually trust the HoP megaturn here, but it's very nice for picking up actions. Moral of the story, mistakes are not tolerated by -Stef-, he will punish you.

Game 6
Ambassador, Bishop, Colony, Expand, Ironworks, Lookout, Monument, Peddler, Platinum, Trader, Venture, and Wishing Well

My Ambassador falls to turn 5. I have IWCCEE hands twice and I get Silver and buy Wishing Well with both of those hands, but this is probably not correct? -Stef- is a master wisher. I resign. The mid/end game of this one looks confusing anyway.

Game 7
Apprentice, Crossroads, Embargo, Silk Road, Spice Merchant, Trade Route, Tunnel, Village, Warehouse, and Workshop

Guess who's tired of playing Dominion by now? Well I don't trust those Apprentice draw decks, but I sure am going to play one here. I don't know if it was bad draw luck, but he is behind me  all of this game. I don't actually take advantage of this particularly well, my deck never explodes to its full potential (not enough Tunnels?) Getting +Buy is awkward here (must trash Golds or get stuff with Workshop). It should be hard for the person with an early lead to lose if they use Apprentice aggressively. I don't think a Workshop/Silk Roads rush stands a chance here.

Game 8
Bridge, Fairgrounds, Festival, Fortune Teller, Jester, Moat, Moneylender, Smithy, Throne Room, and Vault

This is the game that actually makes me consider whether -Stef- is just toying with me so that he can see more neat sets. We have 5/2 splits and he goes for Vault BM. And I will say that this is the first board that really makes Big Money seem viable. But I just don't think you can count on pile-driving Provinces fast enough. The engine player is faced with the non-drawing village conundrum. Maybe more Throne Rooms to address this problem. He chugs along on the Provinces for a while, and gets 6 before I hit my megaturn turn 19 to drain Fairgrounds and the remaining Provinces. Better played engine should be able to do this faster. Engine mirror is a nightmare than ends with three piles (and me losing probably).

Game 9
Chapel, Embargo, Fool's Gold, Margrave, Oasis, Thief, Throne Room, Wharf, Worker's Village, and Workshop

Chapel/FG for him, Worker's Village/Chapel for me. I am praying for the dream where I pick up two FG with Worker's Village on the reshuffle, but alas. We eventually split the FG and move on to Wharves and then Green. We ignore Thief entirely, and I don't get a Margrave for a long time (this is probably a mistake, but I'm not 100% sure). This game is over in a flash (by turns, not time, never by time). He gets very unfortunate draws at the end to prevent him three-piling using Estates. I get very fortunate draws which let me squeak out a win.

Game 10
Festival, Fishing Village, Goons, Haven, Horse Traders, Library, Mountebank, Scheme, Steward, and Upgrade

A big Library/Goons engine thing is a must. We both open Steward/Steward (only wimps are afraid of terminal collision). I have perfect early Steward luck. And I'm convinced I can snowball him with the Mountebanks if I get a single turn where I can play both of them unblocked, but this doesn't happen and he keeps his deck size under control. On Turn 12 I play both my Mountebanks instead of drawing with Steward to get my last card (Scheme). If I do that, then I can put back a Library and I don't have the dud Turn 13. This basically takes me out of contention for this game, and I deserve to lose because of it. The worst thing is that I absolutely thought of this and then rejected it. Oh well.

So the match ends 6-4 in Stef's favor. Congrats to -Stef-! He clearly outplayed me, and we have a fitting champion for the DS tourney. I was really worried for a while that the result would be embarrassing for me, but 6-4 looks okay (only my play is embarrassing). I'd like to apologize to Stef for griping quite a lot in the early part of the match, I'm sure it was obnoxious (more obnoxious than winky emoticons? It's up in the air). Thanks very much to theory, jonts and greatexpectations for organizing the event, it was really fun.

Now I have a message for all you custom set builders. Thanks for putting these together, all of them were interesting and very rich in tactical play but...
Too much Watchtower, this card is hard to play! Too much Fishing Village, there are other villages! Too much Goon's, this card is DOMINATING! Too much thinking! Haven't you people heard of DoubleJack? IGG? Next year I expect a little more variety in these things. Some of you may not believe it, but it's possible to make interesting Big Money boards. I challenge you all to find them.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 07:28:38 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2013, 07:41:24 pm »
0

So here are my thoughts on the final match:

Game 4
Bazaar, Courtyard, Fairgrounds, Golem, King's Court, Mint, Oracle, Potion, Rabble, Tournament, and Trade Route

Hey look, a Tournament game where I win Followers on Turn 7, neat.

+1
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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2013, 07:43:26 pm »
0

I was confused about why you resigned so soon in Game 6.  Did you feel you were falling behind in the Ambassador war?
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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2013, 07:46:32 pm »
+2

Now I have a message for all you custom set builders. Thanks for putting these together, all of them were interesting and very rich in tactical play but...
Too much Watchtower, this card is hard to play! Too much Fishing Village, there are other villages! Too much Goon's, this card is DOMINATING! Too much thinking! Haven't you people heard of DoubleJack? IGG? Next year I expect a little more variety in these things. Some of you may not believe it, but it's possible to make interesting Big Money boards. I challenge you all to find them.

You should check out the overall stats on the submitted entries: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuZ91-6FOcw_dGIzY0duNEE5UFFXOTlRZk9FcWlMblE&usp=sharing#gid=9
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lespeutere

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2013, 07:47:27 pm »
0

Too much Watchtower, this card is hard to play! Too much Fishing Village, there are other villages! Too much Goon's, this card is DOMINATING! Too much thinking! Haven't you people heard of DoubleJack? IGG? Next year I expect a little more variety in these things. Some of you may not believe it, but it's possible to make interesting Big Money boards. I challenge you all to find them.

+10 for this (although I don't agree with the watchtower part as I really like WT ;-))
Especially when you're on the losing end of such a series, it's really hard to stay focused. And if you don't stay focused you'll lose even more likely which in turn lets you slip a tiny bit more. And this may be even more true for a bronze medal match.
I'd say, bo9 is really enough.
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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2013, 07:48:02 pm »
+1

FYI, if your set wasn't chosen, don't be disappointed.  We had tons of great submissions, and it was hard even to narrow it down to the 35 candidates.  Ultimately, card diversity was just as important as set quality in choosing the final 11 -- the same cards couldn't come up over and over again, so your set might have been rejected simply because there were too many other similar sets.
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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2013, 07:49:41 pm »
+1

I was confused about why you resigned so soon in Game 6.  Did you feel you were falling behind in the Ambassador war?
No goons in game 6, though.
Plus I did upload videos, first 2 are w/o audio, I'm afraid.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 07:51:17 pm by lespeutere »
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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2013, 08:04:09 pm »
0

Oh, wow, both of my sets made it to candidate level, that's pretty cool.

Edit: 2/3 actually. The one I liked most didn't become a candidate, the one I liked least was a finals game...  ::)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 08:06:18 pm by Tables »
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2013, 08:08:59 pm »
+6

I was confused about why you resigned so soon in Game 6.  Did you feel you were falling behind in the Ambassador war?

I had not fallen behind in the Ambassador war, I had lost it completely. The rest of the game looks like this: -Stef- buys Peddlers for a while, I spend time cleaning up my deck (probably I should have gotten a second Ambassador at some point). -Stef- buys an Expand. Now whenever I clean my deck up I am potentially providing +buy to him on a board without +buy. Maybe he can do something with Ventures because of that. More likely he just sends the crap back to me. He will be able to buy a Peddler, Expand Peddler-->Colony a few times. This isn't a catch up board because there aren't any really good turns to be had. It would take an incredible string of lucky turns for me and unlucky ones for him. For the challenge forum: find such a sequence where we both play reasonable strategies and I win (reasonable strategies must be approved by both -Stef- and I).

There's lot of good reasons to resign early in these games:
- I don't go on tilt if I quit soon enough
- I don't get even more tired/bored with this match that involves 20-30 minute games because we are both thinking way too much.
- I don't experience the further mental anguish of watching my turns become progressively less useful compared to his.

All this psychological stuff is very important in a match like this. People who feel like losers play like losers, people who feel like winners play like winners. Resignation actually steals a small amount of initiative back even though you lost. By Golly! This game is ending when I say it will.
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Robz888

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2013, 08:14:42 pm »
0

On the game 6 set that MicQ resigned (rightly so, I think... such bad luck for him):

So, I played this exact set in real life with 4 total players, and it was really interesting (which is why I recommended it).

Trader became absolutely essential to block Ambassador stuff, and the Silver pile depleted entirely. Nobody really "won" the Ambassador war, obviously. We just had lots and lots of Silver.

One guy went for a Wishing Well/Peddler/Expand thing, which worked out decently well.

Me and one of the other guys played it sort of Big Money-esque with Ventures (We had oh so much Silver), and I think a Bishop or two.

The other guy flailed.

But it ended up real close between the three of us.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2013, 08:24:06 pm »
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Well, Ambassador plays a lot differently in a 4P game.
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Robz888

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2013, 08:27:26 pm »
0

Well, Ambassador plays a lot differently in a 4P game.

Yes. Of course I expected it to translate a lot differently here, and be somewhat more straightforward.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2013, 11:29:10 pm »
0

You should check out the overall stats on the submitted entries: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuZ91-6FOcw_dGIzY0duNEE5UFFXOTlRZk9FcWlMblE&usp=sharing#gid=9

I'm missing what your point is here - are you saying that such things weren't submitted, that you didn't choose them (why not?), or... well, what is your point?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 08:30:37 am by greatexpectations »
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greatexpectations

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2013, 08:31:38 am »
0

I'm missing what your point is here - are you saying that such things weren't submitted, that you didn't choose them (why not?), or... well, what is your point?

i think his point was that there was not as much creative difference as you would hope to see out of 220+ entries. there was a massive amount of repeat, as the card distribution should show you. what it comes down to is that people out there are going to find fault with the picks no matter what we did. if the sets were too plain, it leads to a couple of boring mirror games and calls for us to pick more engine boards. if they are too complex you get more fatigue from the players and calls for simpler boards, even if the community finds the sets fascinating.

and my apologies WW, i accidentally hit 'modify' for your post instead of 'quote' and i didn't catch it until it was too late. no ill will there.
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theory

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2013, 10:22:32 am »
0

You should check out the overall stats on the submitted entries: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuZ91-6FOcw_dGIzY0duNEE5UFFXOTlRZk9FcWlMblE&usp=sharing#gid=9

I'm missing what your point is here - are you saying that such things weren't submitted, that you didn't choose them (why not?), or... well, what is your point?

I wanted to just point out that it wasn't just submissions that defined the popular cards, it was our choices for the final 11.  If we had gone by submission popularity, the final would have been alt-VP paradise.

Edit: Come to think of it, a kingdom of the top 10 most submitted cards would be a bizarrely amusing (if not interesting) kingdom:

Hamlet
Silk Road
Gardens
Tunnel
Duke
Throne Room
Goons
Fishing Village
Ironworks
King's Court
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mith

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2013, 12:19:15 pm »
+3

Perhaps an "unpopular" set to balance things out?

Pearl Diver
Treasury
Outpost
Explorer
Farmland
Feast
Navigator
Nomad Camp
Stash
Laboratory

(Trading Post removed because it did make it into a final set, despite only being in 3 submissions; Black Market dropped from the eight way tie because the BM deck might include popular cards!)
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PitzerMike

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2013, 12:43:11 pm »
0

Perhaps an "unpopular" set to balance things out?

Pearl Diver
Treasury
Outpost
Explorer
Farmland
Feast
Navigator
Nomad Camp
Stash
Laboratory

(Trading Post removed because it did make it into a final set, despite only being in 3 submissions; Black Market dropped from the eight way tie because the BM deck might include popular cards!)

This set could use an unpopular village ... maybe Walled Village?
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mith

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2013, 01:38:40 pm »
0

I wasn't very clear in my previous post - those cards are just the least submitted cards in the spreadsheet (with the exceptions noted). I kinda like that there is no village anyway, only one set out of the 11 chosen was lacking a village (whereas you would expect 3 or 4 choosing randomly, if my very rough estimate is in the ballpark).

(Based on submissions, Mining Village was actually the least popular from a design point-of-view.)
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Jerk of All trades

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2013, 02:01:23 pm »
0

And this is why I usually veto Tournament and ambassador.

2 games out of the final 10 decided by early game luck...  It's so frustration to see a turn 7 followers (then the KC+followers a couple turns later), or missing your ambassador on the first shuffle.

I'm surprised people included these cards in their deck choices.  ( At least throw possession in if you include ambassador to give an ambassador player some pause.)
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Dekryr

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2013, 02:13:03 pm »
0

Did I read this right...not a single Province game in the finals?
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theory

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2013, 02:13:49 pm »
0

Did I read this right...not a single Province game in the finals?

!Colony means "no Colony".
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jonts26

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2013, 02:14:23 pm »
0

Did I read this right...not a single Province game in the finals?

By province game do you mean a game without colonies? If so, most were province games. !Colony means not colony.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2013, 02:58:37 pm »
+5

To clarify here...
I totally feel Mic Q in his frustration, both in losing and in the kingdoms. There isn't a single big money board here, really - not even one where it's terribly viable - and not really slogs either. Most everything is some kind of an engine, with a couple rush or combo possibilities. And while that is how most sets come down, that isn't indicative of all sets, or even such a high percentage that you wouldn't expect a couple out of 11. i.e. I can see him justifiably thinking he'd have had a better chance on pure random.

Having said that, I can also understand that theory and whoever helped him pick the sets were in a difficult position, and that it's not at all easy to pick sets that are going to be interesting enough, good enough, tactical and reactionary enough, with multiple directions, AND try to keep this meta-balance up, and first player advantage to boot, which could have come up. And all ahead of time. And some kudos to these guys for picking good sets - I can't point to one that I would just say it's super obvious you have to play it this way here. Sometimes, yes, it's very clear that it will be an engine, but that is a lot of Dominion nowadays, and really there are lots of decisions left with which engine to play, how to build it etc. So, as I can't say 'oh this set shouldn't have been in there', I really can't blame them much if at all, and their job was fairly thankless.

Jerk of All trades

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2013, 03:22:59 pm »
+1

Something interesting would have been to give 2 options for sets each time (maybe 1 pre-made, 1 random).  And allow second player to pick the set.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2013, 03:46:37 pm »
+1

Having said that, I can also understand that theory and whoever helped him pick the sets were in a difficult position, and that it's not at all easy to pick sets that are going to be interesting enough, good enough, tactical and reactionary enough, with multiple directions, AND try to keep this meta-balance up, and first player advantage to boot, which could have come up. And all ahead of time. And some kudos to these guys for picking good sets - I can't point to one that I would just say it's super obvious you have to play it this way here. Sometimes, yes, it's very clear that it will be an engine, but that is a lot of Dominion nowadays, and really there are lots of decisions left with which engine to play, how to build it etc. So, as I can't say 'oh this set shouldn't have been in there', I really can't blame them much if at all, and their job was fairly thankless.

this hits on it pretty well. there is a lot going on that we discussed and tried to take into account. to add to what you said, there was the desire to have only one set per person and to minimize repeated cards. these factors all limit things, as did the sheer number of entries and time frame we had to work with.

the trick with BM or a rush designs is that you want something to oppose it. yeah occasionally you get the chance for finesse/tactics in a BM/rush mirror, but at this level the mirror will likely be heavily luck based. you would like to see another option: a weak engine, attack, or rush is ideal here. or of course you could play two different BM/draw strategies.

as i liked saying when discussing the sets, a diverging strategy rarely means a competitively divergent strategy. there were a couple sets i can remember where the rush or BM seemed clearly too strong or too weak. while you want to see more balance you don't want to see it shift that far either. long story short, i think a great BM/rush design is more difficult than an engine design because you can't simply pick different paths.

fwiw i thought there was a decent slog and rush option in the sets. i thought that shark_bait's game was a solid slog design with an engine likely only viable in the late game. the curious draw of colonies for both games made that one more engine-y than it would have been otherwise. and jonts26's game did give you some decent rush options.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2013, 03:48:51 pm »
0

I think next year with Guilds and Dark Ages, the kingdoms that come up will probably only be more tactically complicated. Some DA cards offer a lot of strategic choices and Donald X. has said that Guilds is the most complex set even though it only has 13 kingdom cards. I think in general, it is a challenge to come up with a a balanced BM board at this level of play. I'm not saying it is not possible though. But, seeing as these were the finals here, tough and complex kingdoms  that lend themselves to some engine buuilding with lot of strategic choices were to be expected here.
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Dekryr

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2013, 03:57:10 pm »
0

Did I read this right...not a single Province game in the finals?

!Colony means "no Colony".

Ok I was reading it wrong. I thought they were all colony games. That seemed odd.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2013, 04:11:12 pm »
0

Resignation actually steals a small amount of initiative back even though you lost. By Golly! This game is ending when I say it will.

This can be more psychologically important than most people realize.  I remember playing a game of DotA many years ago and the other team dominated and was just toying with us.  They wouldn't finish the game, so we just attacked our own throne and ended it while they were ignoring us.  We technically lost, but it felt like a win.
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Watno

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2013, 04:15:05 pm »
0

Wow, that must have been very long ago. I can't remember the Throne ever being denieable.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2013, 08:11:13 pm »
0

Wow, that must have been very long ago. I can't remember the Throne ever being denieable.

It was probably 8ish years ago...?  Holy crap... I'm getting older...

Anyway, even at that time, we were playing a retro version at a LAN party because some heroes were hilariously broken.  The current version at the time didn't let you deny the throne but I just tried out of frustration.  It worked, so our team piled on and finished it.  Then we celebrated like we were the winners!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 08:13:17 pm by GigaKnight »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2013, 09:09:09 pm »
0

the trick with BM or a rush designs is that you want something to oppose it.
Why? I mean, in general I agree that it would be nice, but half the sets here there's really nothing to oppose an engine. Which is okay, but it can be the case for engines and big money too.

Quote
yeah occasionally you get the chance for finesse/tactics in a BM/rush mirror,
Heck, even straight BM/Wharf or the straight Ironworks/Silk Roads game are extraordinarily complex.

Quote
but at this level the mirror will likely be heavily luck based.
This is also true of engines as well, if we're truly talking mirror here. I mean, either way, it's possible to outplay the opponent and still go down in flames.
Quote
you would like to see another option: a weak engine, attack, or rush is ideal here. or of course you could play two different BM/draw strategies.
I totally agree. We didn't see this, though, except you could say for the wharf/thief/fool's gold/worker's village/chapel/throne room/margrave/I-forget-the-other-cards set

Quote
as i liked saying when discussing the sets, a diverging strategy rarely means a competitively divergent strategy.
Well, naturally. Most strategies are terrible. And on every board, there's going to be one singular best way to play. We're looking for that to not be evident too easily, though there isn't a board we can't eventually 'solve' (or get a close approximation to solving).
Quote
there were a couple sets i can remember where the rush or BM seemed clearly too strong or too weak. while you want to see more balance you don't want to see it shift that far either. long story short, i think a great BM/rush design is more difficult than an engine design because you can't simply pick different paths.
Which is all fine, except for two things. First, why do you not hold engines to the same standard? Because the engines on many of these boards are clearly 'too strong', or at least, clearly the strongest thing out there. But the second thing is my real point, which is, are you saying there weren't any of these out there that you didn't pick? Man, that's fine - I think there were some, but it's not at all easy to see that kind of stuff - like I said before, it's a very difficult and thankless job. And of course, maybe I'm wrong about these sets.

Quote
fwiw i thought there was a decent slog and rush option in the sets. i thought that shark_bait's game was a solid slog design with an engine likely only viable in the late game. the curious draw of colonies for both games made that one more engine-y than it would have been otherwise. and jonts26's game did give you some decent rush options.
jonts26's set definitely gives you a look at a rush, and it was one of the best kingdoms there, definitely. With all due respect, though, shark_bait's just looks like an engine even without colonies.

dondon151

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2013, 09:21:37 pm »
0

I know some are going to vehemently disagree with me, but engines are just very strong in general and it's pretty difficult to make a board where a non-engine option is dominant and the engine looks tempting but is actually bad. Most of those kingdoms are going to be very clearly rushes or BM or whatnot.

I'm not going to argue that BM or rushes are not tactically complex, but they do tend to be strategically simple whereas engines can be strategically and tactically complex.

Plus, the definition of engine is broad. It seems that any time you can combine 2+ cards to make for decently big turns, it's an engine.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2013, 10:00:47 pm »
0

I know some are going to vehemently disagree with me, but engines are just very strong in general
They certainly are.
Quote
and it's pretty difficult to make a board where a non-engine option is dominant and the engine looks tempting but is actually bad.
Well, thing is, we don't actually care if it's dominant. We just want it to not be dominated. Particularly super-easily. And well, 'pretty difficult' is of course entirely subjective, as is whether the engine 'looks tempting'. But whilst I'd say it's probably pretty difficult, it's also definitely doable. On the other hand, being able to pick these out of a list of 229 is damn hard, particularly because the whole point is that the engine looks good! I mean, if you can tell it off of the time that the pickers here had, then it's probably pretty obviously engine...
Quote
Most of those kingdoms are going to be very clearly rushes or BM or whatnot.
And most of the others are going to be very clearly engines. But most isn't all, in either case, and I do believe it's *possible* to make kingdoms that it's not very clear on.

Quote
I'm not going to argue that BM or rushes are not tactically complex, but they do tend to be strategically simple whereas engines can be strategically and tactically complex.
Okay, here's where I actually start disagreeing with you. Sure, there are lots of BM games where you just play DoubleJack or Courtyard/money, or whatever, and that's it. But there's lots and lots that are pretty darned messy, and actually, if we want to talk about it, I find that these are where Mic Q has his biggest leg up. And actually, these are probably the ones I understand the least. But I don't think there's a significant drop in strategic complexity from engine to money - I mean, HP/X ain't very strategically complex either, and neither are LOTS of engines, really - it's how you put them together which is a very finessed and big difference, and how you put money decks together has similar if *slightly* less critical concerns.

Polk5440

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2013, 10:37:05 pm »
0

Having said that, I can also understand that theory and whoever helped him pick the sets were in a difficult position, and that it's not at all easy to pick sets that are going to be interesting enough, good enough, tactical and reactionary enough, with multiple directions, AND try to keep this meta-balance up, and first player advantage to boot, which could have come up. And all ahead of time. And some kudos to these guys for picking good sets - I can't point to one that I would just say it's super obvious you have to play it this way here. Sometimes, yes, it's very clear that it will be an engine, but that is a lot of Dominion nowadays, and really there are lots of decisions left with which engine to play, how to build it etc. So, as I can't say 'oh this set shouldn't have been in there', I really can't blame them much if at all, and their job was fairly thankless.

I don't think theory was in a difficult position and did a great job selecting interesting kingdoms. There were different types of kingdoms he could have selected, sure, but the ones selected could have played out in different ways. Any selection from the list of candidates would make a more interesting final than pure random. I think the vibrant discussion about the kingdoms in the SC was good evidence of that. Even in the kingdoms selected, some could have been played differently, there were tactical misplays, and some players even picked the wrong strategies from the start. And these are THE top players. I certainly got tripped up when I tried out a couple with gman.

And I don't think a game where the only obviously viable strategy is Big Money-Embassy (or Smithy or Envoy or ....) is worth including in a championship series. Suppose a great player can tweak the basic strat to get a 10% higher chance of winning. I don't think this is worthy of a championship game -- even if it's difficult to see the right tweak. And least not one I want to watch or go out of my way to create a special kingdom for.

I also have a strong bias that building the right engine is difficult....
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 10:41:03 pm by Polk5440 »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2013, 10:48:18 pm »
0

And I don't think a game where the only obviously viable strategy is Big Money-Embassy (or Smithy or Envoy or ....) is worth including in a championship series.
Nobody is advocating that...

greatexpectations

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2013, 11:02:08 pm »
+1

sorry, i can't reply to all of that WW. (and i am only speaking for myself here, not theory) but for reference, the only criteria for the KDC were:

Quote
You may submit Kingdoms with any intent, and the voters can select whichever Kingdom they like for any reason. That being said, in selecting the final Kingdoms, we will look for Kingdoms that can promote future discussion. The ideal Kingdom will encourage diverse strategies, have no clear dominant approach, and emphasizes skill over luck.

this is all building to another discussion entirely. remember, the use of these kingdoms in the final was a secondary consideration. some might not like that, but those were the terms of the tournament that we agreed to upfront. the contest was for the best kingdoms, and there was no obligation there to mix in BM/rush/slog kingdoms. there might be debate about that or room for improvement, but that is something we can discuss (along with all of the usual talk of point counters, identical hands, and each other migration from the official rules) when we prepare for next year.

personally, i think the chosen sets met those criteria just fine. some adjustments were made in the end to fit this better into a final, largely in passing over sets with too many duplicate cards. and yes some more balanced and intriguing BM/rush/slog sets would be nice to see, but that is up to you guys to submit them. because while of course it's possible that there was a BM set we missed that fit those rules and was better than the ones we are voting, i think it is a little unlikely. especially when so few comments even mentioned a BM approach and the card distribution clearly favors engine building and alt VP.

and as for shark_bait's kingdom, he referred to it as an early game "slogfest" which could transition into a potentially powerful engine. which is basically what i said too, so you can share your respect with both of us.
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Polk5440

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2013, 08:42:22 am »
0

And I don't think a game where the only obviously viable strategy is Big Money-Embassy (or Smithy or Envoy or ....) is worth including in a championship series.
Nobody is advocating that...

Sorry. I must have misunderstood the conversation.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #58 on: February 05, 2013, 01:38:29 pm »
+2

Clarifying post: here are the claims I'm actually trying to make here:
1. It is possible to make interesting kingdoms where some form of BM is clearly best.
2. It is possible to make interesting kingdoms where BM is best, but not clearly.
3. It's especially possible to make kingdoms where BM is not best, but still viable (i.e. not totally crushed).
4. It's possible to make kingdoms where BM is an important leg of a RPS-type wheel.
5. There were some of these (those mentioned in 1-4) kingdoms submitted in the KDC.
6. From 5 it follows that they could have been selected.
7. They weren't selected (I suppose the wharf/fool's gold/chapel/workshop/thief/worker's village/etc. kingdom fits as a type 4, but that's pretty much it.).
8. Mic Q can rightly feel disadvantaged by the process, which produced fewer of 'his kind' of kingdom.
9. Having said all of this, it's unreasonable to expect theory, GE, et al to choose these kinds of kingdoms given the constraints they were under, even though it is technically possible as shown in 5.

Ideally, you'd want a good number of 2s, 3s, and 4s (though not everything needs to be a 2, 3, or 4). And perhaps tying the KDC to the finals is not the greatest idea, but that is another discussion. I also think it's really hard to just pluck these off a page, much harder than to actually design such things, which isn't super easy but definitely doable. I could also question the decision to make sure all the kingdoms were from different people or included as criteria whereas including the diversity of kinds of decks wasn't, but it's not terribly relevant at this point.

Robz888

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2013, 02:01:02 pm »
+1

Just wanted to chime in and say I largely agree with WW that the kingdoms were hardly money conducive, and that this hurt MicQ. But I also agree with him that there's no obligation to provide the specific kinds of kingdoms that would benefit one player or the other, and of course there are way more enginey kingdoms than money kingdoms now. And also, the exact thing we want--complex, multi-viable option strategy kingdoms--is by definition the hardest thing for the choosers to identify. If the multi-strategy, who-knows-what-would-be-best-here boards were easily identifiable, then they almost by definition wouldn't fit the criteria we are looking for.

So I still want to salute theory and co for picking highly interesting kingdoms (how about that Game 6 Kingdom? What a sexy set of cards...). And for running a really enjoyable tournament, which was by no accident won by the greatest Dominion player in the world.
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mith

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2013, 03:34:01 pm »
0

I'm toying with the idea of a tournament where the players take turns choosing the kingdom cards (with some sort of veto power for the non-choosing player, to avoid a player picking the same set over and over)... similar to how they run trick-shot billiards tournaments (players alternate choosing a trick, some from a book, some not, and then both players attempt the trick).

Seems like a lot of effort for the players though, so maybe no one would be interested.
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gman314

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Re: Final / Third Place Match livetopic
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2013, 03:46:20 pm »
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Seems like a lot of effort for the players though, so maybe no one would be interested.

I would definitely be interested, and given the amount of overlap between those who entered the KDC and those who entered the tournament, there would probably be plenty of interested players.
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