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Author Topic: Aargh.  (Read 1905 times)

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zahlman

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Aargh.
« on: February 03, 2013, 10:38:02 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/03/game-20130203-073328-f2f5062b.html

I got him into a City trap (he must have expected me to compete, but only Curses could run out, and he didn't get terminals besides one GS, so the 3 Cities he did buy were basically just delayed-activation Labs) and set up a Torturer chain quickly, but it hardly seemed to matter since he had no trouble lining up his Bishops (and mine?) to get rid of Curses almost as quickly as he accepted them. But more irritating was how effective his one GS seemed to be later on. I built up much better economy, but I never got to double-Province, and Bishop->Gold couldn't really catch up for me. It felt as if my Curses had simply fueled his Bishop engine.
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dondon151

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Re: Aargh.
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 10:46:21 am »
+1

You need to finish off your Torturer chains with a Ghost Ship or Margrave so that he can't just take the Curses and Bishop them away. It's also in general a very good play to force your opponent to discard before playing your own Bishop to deny him the option to trash from his own hand. You can see where your Torturer plays are pointless, for example, on turn 9, where your opponent gains a Curse from your Torturer and then trashes it immediately to your Bishop.

In the case of this game in particular I would get either a Margrave or a Ghost Ship before your first Torturer. Margrave is good for the +buy (since you'll be needing quite a few NVs) but Ghost Ship is substantially more powerful at the end of a Torturer chain since any Curses that your opponent has left in his hand will either go on top of his deck or will push his good cards into the next turn.

A couple of Cities later in the game once the Curses have run out is a solid option for maintaining consistency. I'm also not too sure about the Loan because you'll be trashing pretty quickly with Bishops flying around and none of the desirable Action cards in the kingdom save Festival yield +$.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 10:50:21 am by dondon151 »
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KingsSkort

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Re: Aargh.
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 01:27:07 pm »
+1

With all the good $5s, I prefer silver to loan. Bishop/loan is awful for economy.
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DrFlux

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Re: Aargh.
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 02:03:22 pm »
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I wouldn't touch bishop here at all, certainly not till late in the game. A: as an opener it keeps you from hitting 5 as often, and B: as others have commented, if you are not careful, it allows you opponent to trash curses.

Your main priority is to chain torturers as fast as possible. Possibly with a ghost ship involved, but I'm not convinced its much better than another torurer. I mean, if they know you have GS, they should just discard to the first torturer, and then GS will not hurt that much. I think I'd rather just have the extra card, so that its easier to chain.

On second thought, GS is good here, because otherwise the other player can buy a trading post, which is FABULOUS against torturer, as you can just take 2 curses, and immediately trash them and gain a silver.

I'd open silver/silver. Especially if my opponent opened bishop, as this would get me free trashing.
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dondon151

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Re: Aargh.
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 02:51:47 pm »
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Your main priority is to chain torturers as fast as possible. Possibly with a ghost ship involved, but I'm not convinced its much better than another torurer. I mean, if they know you have GS, they should just discard to the first torturer, and then GS will not hurt that much. I think I'd rather just have the extra card, so that its easier to chain.

Play Torturer. Opponent discards to 3 cards.
Play Torturer. Opponent gains Curse in hand (if he discards down to 1 card, his turn is dead anyway).
Play Ghost Ship. What's he going to do? He has 4 cards in hand, one of which is a Curse, and so he has to put something back on top of his deck.

Or say that you played 3 Torturers previously: opponent gains Curse in hand, discards down to 4 cards, and then gains another Curse. You're still forcing him to put something bad back on top of his deck with a Ghost Ship.

Or say that you opponent has a Trading Post (or any other card that trashes multiple cards) in hand, so you play 2 Torturers and he just takes the Curses because he's going to trash them anyway. Normally he'll still have a decent turn, but if you Ghost Ship him after the Torturers are done, he has to pick between trashing and buying something.

You don't even have to play Ghost Ship at the end of a chain; if you know that your opponent put back a Curse on his previous turn, you can start out with a Ghost Ship to bring him down the 3 cards in hand and then start your Torturer chain from there. Heck, you could have a second Ghost Ship that you play after the Torturers.

tl;dr handsize attacks in tandem with Torturer chains are powerful and not at all redundant.



Also disagree with skipping the Bishop. VP chips are important in a game that's likely to 3-pile (Torturer, Curse, NV) and NV doesn't draw very well, plus as pointed out Ghost Ship doesn't draw very well either, so trashing is desirable. Bishop also soft counters Torturer if your opponent doesn't kill your handsize some other way.
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DrFlux

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Re: Aargh.
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 03:33:52 pm »
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If you read my quote, I decided that GS IS good on this board. However, I stick by that I would probably skip it if not for trading post and bishop. I agree that it is not a bad choice, but it would occasionally lead to awkward things happening, like a turn where you play village, 1 torturer, draw into a ghost ship, and then they don't have to put anything back.

As for bishop, my main point is that I wouldn't open with it. A few points are not going to help you if your opponent wins the torturer war. And it really does help your opponent just as much as it helps you until you have your engine reliably firing, ideally after a Ghost ship. Until then it just isn't good to give your opponent free trashing that they don't have to waste an action on.

Your main priority is to chain torturers as fast as possible. Possibly with a ghost ship involved, but I'm not convinced its much better than another torurer. I mean, if they know you have GS, they should just discard to the first torturer, and then GS will not hurt that much. I think I'd rather just have the extra card, so that its easier to chain.

Play Torturer. Opponent discards to 3 cards.
Play Torturer. Opponent gains Curse in hand (if he discards down to 1 card, his turn is dead anyway).
Play Ghost Ship. What's he going to do? He has 4 cards in hand, one of which is a Curse, and so he has to put something back on top of his deck.

Or say that you played 3 Torturers previously: opponent gains Curse in hand, discards down to 4 cards, and then gains another Curse. You're still forcing him to put something bad back on top of his deck with a Ghost Ship.

Or say that you opponent has a Trading Post (or any other card that trashes multiple cards) in hand, so you play 2 Torturers and he just takes the Curses because he's going to trash them anyway. Normally he'll still have a decent turn, but if you Ghost Ship him after the Torturers are done, he has to pick between trashing and buying something.

You don't even have to play Ghost Ship at the end of a chain; if you know that your opponent put back a Curse on his previous turn, you can start out with a Ghost Ship to bring him down the 3 cards in hand and then start your Torturer chain from there. Heck, you could have a second Ghost Ship that you play after the Torturers.

tl;dr handsize attacks in tandem with Torturer chains are powerful and not at all redundant.



Also disagree with skipping the Bishop. VP chips are important in a game that's likely to 3-pile (Torturer, Curse, NV) and NV doesn't draw very well, plus as pointed out Ghost Ship doesn't draw very well either, so trashing is desirable. Bishop also soft counters Torturer if your opponent doesn't kill your handsize some other way.
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shark_bait

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Re: Aargh.
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2013, 01:41:38 pm »
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You actually want a Loan in this game but without sacrificing early purchasing power of getting to $5.  Yes Silver and Loan are anti-synergetic but one key thing with Torturer games is chaining multiple torturers together.  You can't assume that your opponent will help you trash with Bishop, so by getting a Loan, you begin to thin your deck, increasing you odds of getting those multi-torturer turns.

I'd open Silver/Silver and then get a loan with my next <$5 hand.

EDIT:  Here's a kinda similar game that I played recently.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20130128-145151-8a16a131.html

Bazaar is a village available which changes things a little bit since it give +$1 and allows me to actually go with 2 Loans, but the general principle is the same as it is still a $5 cost village. 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 01:49:51 pm by shark_bait »
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