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Author Topic: Random thoughts on card design  (Read 2837 times)

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timchen

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Random thoughts on card design
« on: February 01, 2013, 04:49:37 pm »
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After some number of games which enables me to memorize all the cards (and many of them with the symbols and positions on it!) without too much effort... here is what I found interesting/disgusting about the card design:

1. powerful cards/combos enabled by symbols (Fermenting/reformation/industrialization/etc)
This part is good. The design of the card/mechanics doubly backs up for pursuing the strategy, as even if you do not draw the key card the denial to your opponent is almost as important. In the end this means stacking up the power symbols is always important.

2. powerful cards/combos enabled by tableau position (alchemy/road building/monotheism/etc)
This part is also good. While one cannot really play for this kind of strategy, this very often creates good catching up or even reverse opportunity. And it's even more interesting when the opponent realizes those possibilities and thinks about how to prevent or defend. One particular combo that came to me the other night is Coal+Monotheism. Works very well to attack opponent's board from behind and scoring a lot at the same time!

3.powerful cards/combos enabled by splaying (code of laws/philosophy/paper/invention)
Not a fan. The problem is that if you play for it specifically (say starting to splay left early), you are screwed if you didn't draw the key card (paper). There isn't so much denial effect there as to reach the effect you need both the symbols and splay. In the end this makes light bulbs in general not so important. If those cards come to me, then good; otherwise I usually don't bother.

4. Filler cards: (medicine/feudalism/encyclopedia/refrigeration/santination/suberbia/stem cells/miniaturization/maybe something else I don't recall right now)
This is shame. These card are almost actively bad, especially for those higher age cards which might cover your useful cards when you blindly tech up. They are almost never actively useful, especially when you are behind. I really don't understand the design principle behind those. It feels almost like the game designer is apologizing for the power of the leaves early on to make the late yellow cards completely a dud.

Maybe their purpose is just to nerf the tech up strategies. But it is definitely not the fun way to balance it. Just think when you use lots of tempo with evolution or education to just draw into a higher age and get these...
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popsofctown

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Re: Random thoughts on card design
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2013, 06:40:07 pm »
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I'm unsure about some of those, but I definitely find Feudalism depressingly useless.  It doesn't even have good icons.  The game is interesting when I have several powerful dogmas to choose from, and the duds decrease how often that happens. 
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JimKam

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Re: Random thoughts on card design
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2013, 03:39:09 am »
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Encyclopedia is in fact quite deadly at the correctly position:

Example like maths ramp into astrology -> meld Encyclopedia, Reveal Democracy
That 8 will soon reach your board

And medicine can avoid such tricks. even better, medicine/ translation makes your opponent backfire.
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popsofctown

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Re: Random thoughts on card design
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2013, 11:38:20 am »
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"backfire?" Medicine isn't instant-speed..
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SirPeebles

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Re: Random thoughts on card design
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2013, 12:09:51 pm »
+1

I got so confused reading that first post.  It wasn't until well after finishing that I noticed you weren't talking about Dominion.
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qmech

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Re: Random thoughts on card design
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2013, 01:46:48 pm »
+1

This is the peril of "Unread posts".  I took "some number of games" to mean various different games (with different rules, that come in different boxes) and got to memorising symbols before I thought to check the breadcrumbs.  (This isn't the first time I've narrowly avoided being caught in a Witch's oven.)
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rrenaud

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Re: Random thoughts on card design
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 02:15:02 am »
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Can you actually avoid having 'filler' cards?  Some cards are just going to be below average if the game is interesting at all.

I don't know if the splaying stuff is so bad.  It's nice to have the splays set up early so that you are in a good position mid/late game.  Of course, it's awesome to get Paper if you already have some splays.
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BitTorrent

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Re: Random thoughts on card design
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 03:29:56 am »
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1. Feudalism is actually not that useless as most ppl seen...Although in order to use it precisely would require mastering knowledge to the game itself, or at least, all the cards in the game. The icon is not bad either, 1 leaf on that card can be quite handy in some situation say preventing someone from doing machinery on you. Yea that card is a bad splayer but it work in harmony in some cases, say you are going alchemy and requires a bit more castle(splaying left on base cards with castle would always give a castle), or cases that you want a domination on castle. Of course you can use it to set up a paper streak too.

2. Actually among the base set the most heretic card is the socialism in age 8. Very weird card, although it is not useless either. If, in a 2 player game where both players are not developing super boards, going for score and achievements and have few icons, an age 8 purple card with 3 leafs can be a tire-breaker for leaf dependent situation. You cannot find such a card with pure leaves on a purple until you are back in age 4(reformation). The weird usage of socialism is not useless either. Being shared a satellite from your opponent where you meld socialism and tuck empiricism and grab the hand of your opponent, hence shut him down from the last part of a satellite. Weird enough.

(Lighting in age 7 gives 2 leaves and 1 clock, which sounds good but it is subject to the wicked Skyscraper in age 8 which you may lose everything due to it, while a pure leaf card in age 8 like antibiotics and socialism is basically intact from most crown dependent demand cards such as banking or enterprise or socialites. The only potential threat is the good old Compass back in age 3. The good thing about this is if what you only want is a age 8 top card for an achievement, all you want is a secure card without being threatened. Yea mobility can crush both of them and kick you plain hard, but mobility is tough to deal with anyway)

3. Suburbia is no-where a weak card...Being 1 action knock out from a Fermenting-Reformation-Suburbia and you will know why. Why bicycle if my opponent is not working on anything emergent?

4. And actually IMO bicycle is way more weird than suburbia. It is not a real scorer nor a real winner, which requires you so much action to execute. Without a massive hand you cannot generate a huge amount of score. But even so bicycle is still extremely handy, giving you some of the most weird options available, such as storing the score on your hand in-order to prevent score invading tactics(e.g. Mass Media, Combustion, Rocketry, etc.) and grab your last achievement after you set it all up.

5. I can still add a lot others...though this is a lot already.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 03:39:49 am by BitTorrent »
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timchen

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Re: Random thoughts on card design
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2013, 05:30:40 am »
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Can you actually avoid having 'filler' cards?  Some cards are just going to be below average if the game is interesting at all.

I don't know if the splaying stuff is so bad.  It's nice to have the splays set up early so that you are in a good position mid/late game.  Of course, it's awesome to get Paper if you already have some splays.
I think you can. Notice there is no strict way of ranking cards. A card is interesting/useful as long as you can find some situation where it is strong or make different strategy happen. For example physics in my opinion is more interesting to be used to return your opponent's hand. Those cards I mentioned I just feel they add very little to the game. That of course means they are (usually) weak, but more importantly they hardly do any interesting things.

Quote
3. Suburbia is no-where a weak card...Being 1 action knock out from a Fermenting-Reformation-Suburbia and you will know why. Why bicycle if my opponent is not working on anything emergent?

4. And actually IMO bicycle is way more weird than suburbia. It is not a real scorer nor a real winner, which requires you so much action to execute. Without a massive hand you cannot generate a huge amount of score. But even so bicycle is still extremely handy, giving you some of the most weird options available, such as storing the score on your hand in-order to prevent score invading tactics(e.g. Mass Media, Combustion, Rocketry, etc.) and grab your last achievement after you set it all up.
 
Sure, the problem is that a large hand strategy IMO is already strong enough. You have so many cards to choose from and a strong board position. So why do you need a card specifically to add that 1-turn kill possibility? Indeed, the big problem I see for this card is that I can hardly see anywhere else for this card to be useful.

Bicycle, on the other hand, exactly as you said, is more interesting. It is not an instant winner for the big hand strategy which is a good thing IMO; and it also provides some interesting tactical possibilities.
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