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Author Topic: Single Strategy Board?  (Read 4676 times)

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TheHutts

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Single Strategy Board?
« on: January 27, 2013, 04:43:24 pm »
+1

I played this set IRL against my wife - we only have four of the sets. Often we like to play the same board a couple of times to see if we can find anything we missed the first time. But on this board it only seemed to us like there was one viable strategy -

2s - Chapel, Duchess, Moat
3s- Warehouse
4s - Salvager
5s - Cartographer, Contraband, Margrave, Vault
6s - Adventurer

We both did almost exactly the same thing - opening Chapel/Silver, and building around Margrave with Cartographer and Warehouse to help with cycling. Is there anything we missed?

Neither of us have ever played against a really experienced player, so I was interested in learning if we were missing something, or if this is just a weak-ish board without many options?
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KingsSkort

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2013, 04:57:18 pm »
+1

I would be surprised if the warehouse and cartogs add anything to a chapelled deck. Your deck should be fairly thin to start with, and any bonus from playing your margs more should be offset by drawing your extra actions dead.
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TheHutts

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2013, 05:02:26 pm »
0

I would be surprised if the warehouse and cartogs add anything to a chapelled deck. Your deck should be fairly thin to start with, and any bonus from playing your margs more should be offset by drawing your extra actions dead.

So the ideal deck would have a couple of Margraves, Chapel, and a few silver/golds? I had one Margrave, one Warehouse, and one Cartographer. Thanks for the input; we kind of play in a hermetically sealed bubble against ourselves, so it's cool to get ideas of how to play better.
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Ozle

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2013, 05:14:22 pm »
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I'd have probably gone Silver/Salvager and then bought a Vault. And then probably gone big money from there.
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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2013, 05:23:25 pm »
+2

Vault/BM on a board with Margraves? I'm not the best player but that doesn't seem like a strong choice.
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Ozle

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2013, 05:32:15 pm »
+1

Vault/BM on a board with Margraves? I'm not the best player but that doesn't seem like a strong choice.

Yeah, its not strong I admit, just pointing out I would have done something different.
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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2013, 06:10:26 pm »
+4

The useful cards here are Vault and Margrave.  Vault will be severely hampered by Margrave, so that leaves Margrave as the main card you want to play.  Against discard attacks, having a thin deck is no real advantage, so I think I like BM-Margrave here.  Without the Margraves I like Vault-BM.  Neither of them requires Chapel, which slows you down early for too little advantage later on.
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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2013, 06:18:30 pm »
+2

I would be surprised if the warehouse and cartogs add anything to a chapelled deck. Your deck should be fairly thin to start with, and any bonus from playing your margs more should be offset by drawing your extra actions dead.

So the ideal deck would have a couple of Margraves, Chapel, and a few silver/golds? I had one Margrave, one Warehouse, and one Cartographer. Thanks for the input; we kind of play in a hermetically sealed bubble against ourselves, so it's cool to get ideas of how to play better.
No, I think you should probably have only one Margrave if you have Chapel. In a post-Chapel deck, your terminal draws will collide a lot if you have more than one: let's say your deck is 2 Coppers, 3 Silvers, one Gold, 2 Margraves and one Chapel - I think this scenario sounds pretty realistic. No matter how your deck is shuffled, your second Margrave will always either collide with your first one or miss the reshuffle. In other words, if you have two Margraves, you are playing one of them per each reshuffle, which is also the case if you have only one. But if you had another Silver instead of the second Margrave, your worst possible hand would be improved from $8 to $10 (which can be relevant when you want a second Gold before greening) and your best possible hand would be improved from $11 to $13 (which is very relevant).

Getting the second Margrave is timely when you have about 16 cards in your deck, but that will take a while if you go for the Chapel.
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TheHutts

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2013, 06:33:34 pm »
0

I would be surprised if the warehouse and cartogs add anything to a chapelled deck. Your deck should be fairly thin to start with, and any bonus from playing your margs more should be offset by drawing your extra actions dead.

So the ideal deck would have a couple of Margraves, Chapel, and a few silver/golds? I had one Margrave, one Warehouse, and one Cartographer. Thanks for the input; we kind of play in a hermetically sealed bubble against ourselves, so it's cool to get ideas of how to play better.
No, I think you should probably have only one Margrave if you have Chapel. In a post-Chapel deck, your terminal draws will collide a lot if you have more than one: let's say your deck is 2 Coppers, 3 Silvers, one Gold, 2 Margraves and one Chapel - I think this scenario sounds pretty realistic. No matter how your deck is shuffled, your second Margrave will always either collide with your first one or miss the reshuffle. In other words, if you have two Margraves, you are playing one of them per each reshuffle, which is also the case if you have only one. But if you had another Silver instead of the second Margrave, your worst possible hand would be improved from $8 to $10 (which can be relevant when you want a second Gold before greening) and your best possible hand would be improved from $11 to $13 (which is very relevant).

Getting the second Margrave is timely when you have about 16 cards in your deck, but that will take a while if you go for the Chapel.

Cool - that makes sense!
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TheHutts

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2013, 06:36:52 pm »
0

The useful cards here are Vault and Margrave.  Vault will be severely hampered by Margrave, so that leaves Margrave as the main card you want to play.  Against discard attacks, having a thin deck is no real advantage, so I think I like BM-Margrave here.  Without the Margraves I like Vault-BM.  Neither of them requires Chapel, which slows you down early for too little advantage later on.

Makes sense. I pretty much go for Chapel 95% of the time, so I should try and ease back a bit.
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Tables

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2013, 07:08:53 pm »
0

I don't think I'd buy Chapel here. With BM decks, Chapel is often not good, and with Salvager for light trashing for benefit, I don't see Chapel at all. I think I'd probably go Salvager/Silver on a 3/4 opening, and get one Margrave and go from there. Possibly get a second Margrave, if I'd salvaged my Estates and hit $5 before I wanted Duchies.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2013, 07:11:56 pm »
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So so far, regardless of whether I chapel or not, whenever I buy 1 margrave I seem to finish 2 - 5 turns faster than when I buy 2 margraves. (I'm just going completely straight BM otherwise, no duchies or anything)

Is there any simulation or anything to back this up?


Also, adding a chapel in so far hasn't really negatively affected anything.
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Tables

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 07:12:35 pm »
0

I'll run a quick simulation, and check what the 'optimal' BM-Margrave does.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Tables

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2013, 07:16:14 pm »
0

Okay, there's no optimised BM-Margrave in the sim, but the basic simulation (BM+Margrave) is beaten about 51-45 by buying a second Margrave. I reckon delaying that second Margrave a few turns would push that up a little.

Okay, buying a second Margrave after the deck is 15 cards big pushes the win rate up to 50.4-43.4, which is a slight optimization.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 07:18:47 pm by Tables »
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2013, 07:23:54 pm »
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Thanks, thanks. Perhaps I was buying it too early.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2013, 07:42:11 pm »
+1

Chapel is useful for getting to your power card more frequently (e.g. opening Chapel/Witch) and for getting your actions to cluster together.  That is, if something like Village were on the board, then Chapel would help you chain together your Villages and Margraves.

Chapel has at least two downsides though.  First, it requires 2 or 3 turns of trashing during which you cannot buy anything.  Often you can make up for this set back by having a higher density of good cards.  But second, having such a slim deck, you'll really start to hit a wall once you start buying Victory cards, since 2 or 3 Provinces will comprise a signficantly larger portion of your deck post-chapel than it would have if you'd kept those 10 original cards and been buying Silvers.  For this reason, a Chapel deck often wants to build up to the point of being able to gain multiple Victory cards in a few quick bursts at the end.  Assuming that you've just been hit by a Margrave (your Wife is playing a multi-Margrave Chapel deck, after all) but then play a Margrave at the start of your turn, you'll have a hand of 5 cards.  Even if all 5 of these are Gold, you won't be able to buy two Provinces at once.  To even get a Province and Duchy, you'll need $13, which means 3 Golds and 2 Silvers -- quite a feat indeed, particularly when odds are high that you'll draw a dead Chapel or Margrave, and even worse after your first round of greening.
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dondon151

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2013, 11:29:18 pm »
0

If you Margrave your opponent on his second Chapel turn (or worse, if his Chapel falls to turn 5 and you attack him), that's a huge increase in tempo.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 02:45:23 am »
+1

Even though Chapel is not that great in BM games, it's still often good enough to go for it. Sometimes it's a very close call, but often there is still a tendency. Embassy/BM for example doesn't need Chapel, it's just too fast and provides filtering by itself.

Margrave (which should be dominant here) is a different case in my oppinion. First, you will be facing discard attacks, so a high money density and a more polarized deck (consisting of Golds, some Silvers and Provinces) can really be huge. And second, you have +buy attached to your primary card, which you can only really use if you have a decent amount of high-value money.

Long story short, I'm quite sure Chapel/Margrave/Money is better than simple Margrave/Money, and I think it's not even close. You probably don't want to trash too aggressively, but I really think you DO want to trash.
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dondon151

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2013, 02:48:31 am »
+2

Long story short, I'm quite sure Chapel/Margrave/Money is better than simple Margrave/Money, and I think it's not even close. You probably don't want to trash too aggressively, but I really think you DO want to trash.

Which is why you get a Salvager instead. The biggest negative economic impact to your starting deck is those 3 Estates, and Salvager is better at trashing them than Chapel. You'll probably end up trashing 2 of them.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2013, 02:53:07 am »
0

Long story short, I'm quite sure Chapel/Margrave/Money is better than simple Margrave/Money, and I think it's not even close. You probably don't want to trash too aggressively, but I really think you DO want to trash.

Which is why you get a Salvager instead. The biggest negative economic impact to your starting deck is those 3 Estates, and Salvager is better at trashing them than Chapel. You'll probably end up trashing 2 of them.

I'm not sure, but I expect Salvager to be too slow and unreliable early, and yeah, I think you do want to get rid of those coppers. At least to some extend. But you might want to get a Salvager during mid-game if you happen to draw $4 or even $5 to have some nice end-game power.
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Davio

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2013, 04:22:33 am »
0

Chapel may be OK here, but then you really have to keep buying Golds for a couple of extra turns to offset your small deck.
Green too early and you will slow down to a crawl to a point where you can't even buy Golds anymore, that would be sad.

Since you will get attacked yourself you need money density, hence the Chapel. Margrave allows you to pick the best 3 out of 6 though so in some cases getting attacked may even help you. I don't think 2 Golds and 1 Silver are going to cut it here in the long run though.

The nice thing about Margrave is that it has +Buy so even if you "overdraw" to something like 4 Golds you can still buy Province-Silver or heck, Province-Salvager if you are ahead.

Don't dismiss Salvager here because of the lead protection it can give. In a small deck you are more likely to be able to Salvage Province for Province. It will collide with Margrave though, so it can be a fun little tactic, but I don't know how much it matters in practice.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 04:24:13 am by Davio »
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serakfalcon

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Re: Single Strategy Board?
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2013, 05:32:12 am »
0

Quote
Don't dismiss Salvager here because of the lead protection it can give. In a small deck you are more likely to be able to Salvage Province for Province. It will collide with Margrave though, so it can be a fun little tactic, but I don't know how much it matters in practice.

Depending on how the game is going, you can always salvager the margrave, or salvager a gold for the extra oomph you need to pull ahead or win. As well, if you're opponent is margraving you, you can manage the collisions a little bit. Coppers won't matter so much if your salvager can get extra silvers or golds in the deck...
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