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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)  (Read 125017 times)

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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #250 on: March 04, 2013, 07:58:39 pm »
0

Monument is a really strong card. I would defend its placement. In Big Money, well, Monument is pretty good for you, because it forces your opponent to really win that Province split, and a +$2 terminal for $4 isn't such a bad deal anyway. In engines, well, an engine is looking to do something cool--that's the point of an engine. Maybe you are playing attack after attack after attack, or building up to drain all the Provinces in one fell swoop... or play a bunch of Monuments. Those points really add up if you have a couple of them. And Throne Room and King's Court really just boost the card insanely.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #251 on: March 04, 2013, 07:59:52 pm »
0

The Spoils is a delayed benefit, too, and we know that gaining a Gold, much less one that leaves your deck when you use it, is not as strong as it seems.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #252 on: March 04, 2013, 08:01:54 pm »
+5

I think many of us, when first playing Dominion, think that the worst part of a Curse is the negative VP.  After all, this is back when we scoff at trashing our precious Estates.  Eventually we learn that the dead card aspect is even worse than the negative VP, to the extent that we practically conflate Estates and Curses until the end game.  But the negative VP of the Curses real are something.  The difference between the favorable end of a 4/6 Curse split is more than a Duchy's worth of points, which is pretty big in a lot of games.  Foregoing a Curser entirely and eating 10 Curses put you down by more than a Province and Duchy.  Of course, there's also the fact that Ruins can have a marginal benefit, but really you can't ignore the VP aspect.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #253 on: March 04, 2013, 08:04:26 pm »
0

The Spoils is a delayed benefit, too, and we know that gaining a Gold, much less one that leaves your deck when you use it, is not as strong as it seems.

If you play the Marauder each time it comes around, it's pretty much like gaining a real Gold, modulo edge cases.  That's a big if with a terminal action like Marauder though.  After the Ruins are gone, you're effectively spending an action just to sustain a phantom Gold's presence.  Bandit Camp is better in this regard.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #254 on: March 04, 2013, 08:06:59 pm »
0

The theory says, in terms of building up your deck this gives nothing but terminal +$2 for $4, so someone using more immediately useful cards SHOULD win that province split 5-3 on average in BMish matchups. And similarly the tempo loss of using it fairly early in an engine should mean that a similar engine without Monument builds up faster than you.

The theory doesn't match up with what you expect. Monument is a terminal Silver. Most other $4s that provide $ are terminal Silvers or near-equivalents. In terms of economy you don't really even lose momentum, since in most cases playing Monument and playing something like Bridge, Cutpurse, Militia, Horse Traders, etc. are functionally equivalent anyway (unless you need to like, buy 2 $3s or get lucky with Bridge and buy a $3 and a $4). This is particularly true in money games and slogs, where terminal Silver for $4 is about as good as you can get.

Bigger differences occur when you compare Monument to trashing cards. In engine games I would definitely open Salvager, Moneylender, or Spice Merchant over Monument. The goal in engine games, as -Stef- once put it, is to play key cards more often, which means that you are trading away early Monument plays for the possibility of more future Monument plays. Either way, though, Monument is still an important card if the engine doesn't megaturn.
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sandstorm

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #255 on: March 04, 2013, 08:07:17 pm »
+1

Ya my opinion of Marauder has dropped significantly since Dark Ages was released.  It seems like a lot of BM strategies can simply ignore it and cruise to victory.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #256 on: March 05, 2013, 02:45:37 am »
0

Maruder really should be higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #257 on: March 05, 2013, 04:55:12 am »
+10

Monument is a terminal Silver. Most other $4s that provide $ are terminal Silvers or near-equivalents. In terms of economy you don't really even lose momentum
Instead, you gain monumentum!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #258 on: March 05, 2013, 08:13:34 pm »
0

Admittedly, it is an edge case, but I played a kingdom IRL with my wife that had Marauder and Fairgrounds in it.  We played the kingdom a couple of times to test different strategies.  The first time, we both went for Marauder.  I ended up winning in the end with my Fairgrounds being worth 10 each. (There was also a Potion card and Shelters in the game.)  However, the second game my wife ignored Marauder so that she did not give me any Ruins.  I actually ended up using a few buys to get some Ruins for the Fairgrounds.  On the other hand, I helped her Fairgrounds to be worth more.  It ended up that she won.  Before that game, I felt that Marauder was always a good purchase, but it emphasized to me that there are times even the best cards are worth ignoring. 

Either way, I feel that it is right about where it should be in the rankings.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #259 on: March 05, 2013, 09:03:08 pm »
0

Admittedly, it is an edge case, but I played a kingdom IRL with my wife that had Marauder and Fairgrounds in it.  We played the kingdom a couple of times to test different strategies.  The first time, we both went for Marauder.  I ended up winning in the end with my Fairgrounds being worth 10 each. (There was also a Potion card and Shelters in the game.)  However, the second game my wife ignored Marauder so that she did not give me any Ruins.  I actually ended up using a few buys to get some Ruins for the Fairgrounds.  On the other hand, I helped her Fairgrounds to be worth more.  It ended up that she won.  Before that game, I felt that Marauder was always a good purchase, but it emphasized to me that there are times even the best cards are worth ignoring. 

Either way, I feel that it is right about where it should be in the rankings.

Marauder is certainly weaker in certain contexts, such as the presence of Fairgrounds, Death Cart, or Scrying Pool.  But then, Sea Hag isn't so hot against Masquerade.  It always depends on the board to an extent, but nevertheless a card like Marauder is usually a good purchase.  At the very least, seeing it in the kingdom ought to get you thinking about it.
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #260 on: March 06, 2013, 03:01:31 am »
0

I'm pretty sure too, but I expected Marauder to be higher, even though I didn't play with DA, because :
->even if ruins are not curses, they are most of the times as bad as them (okay, maybe abandoned mine -that has even a few synergies if you have MANY villages- and survivors aren't, though !)
->you gain spoils, so it's not so bad
But I still expect the top 3 in the $5 cards to be : 3# witch, 2# cultist, 1# mountebank---------------.

After playing Dark Ages a bunch, I feel that ruins are less painful than they look. Before playing with it, I definitely expected Marauder to be in the top few along with Sea Hag and Young Witch, but I'm pretty sure it's not.

Not saying I'm entirely convinced of where it should be, but I think it's easy to overestimate it by comparing it to Sea Hag.
Do you think it's balanced enough, though?

Sea Hag is just a plain junker with no benefit to the active player (other than hindering your opponent), Marauder deals less damage, but also gives you that Spoils.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #261 on: March 06, 2013, 11:02:51 pm »
+6

I'm pretty sure too, but I expected Marauder to be higher, even though I didn't play with DA, because :
->even if ruins are not curses, they are most of the times as bad as them (okay, maybe abandoned mine -that has even a few synergies if you have MANY villages- and survivors aren't, though !)
->you gain spoils, so it's not so bad
But I still expect the top 3 in the $5 cards to be : 3# witch, 2# cultist, 1# mountebank---------------.

After playing Dark Ages a bunch, I feel that ruins are less painful than they look. Before playing with it, I definitely expected Marauder to be in the top few along with Sea Hag and Young Witch, but I'm pretty sure it's not.

Not saying I'm entirely convinced of where it should be, but I think it's easy to overestimate it by comparing it to Sea Hag.
Do you think it's balanced enough, though?

Sea Hag is just a plain junker with no benefit to the active player (other than hindering your opponent), Marauder deals less damage, but also gives you that Spoils.

The problem with Marauder is it literally doesn't do anything for you for a whole shuffle. Neither the benefit nor the attack shows up until the shuffle. With Sea Hag, at least the Curse goes on the deck top so you don't lose that much tempo. Marauder is really slow. Even if it gave Curses it might be worse than Sea Hag.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #262 on: March 07, 2013, 07:16:07 pm »
0

Hmm I think marauder is kind of underrated here. While ruins aren't as bad ad curses they still kill any not great big money strategy. And an engine needs some sort of fast way to get rid of them. Sure they lose head to head with curses, but if they're the only option they're still bad. And the spoils are a nice bonus.
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sandstorm

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #263 on: March 07, 2013, 07:36:50 pm »
0

Hmm I think marauder is kind of underrated here. While ruins aren't as bad ad curses they still kill any not great big money strategy. And an engine needs some sort of fast way to get rid of them. Sure they lose head to head with curses, but if they're the only option they're still bad. And the spoils are a nice bonus.

The problem with Marauder isn't that it gives out ruins instead of curses.  The problem with Marauder is that it hurts you on its first run through the deck and doesn't provide a benefit to you or harm to your opponent until the next reshuffle.  Cultist, on the other hand, is a power card for sure.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #264 on: March 07, 2013, 08:22:55 pm »
0

Stepping aside from the Monument/Marauder discussion, I wanted to point out that Poor House only weakens Remake if there is no Village of any sort on the board (except maybe Bandit Camp or Native Village). The ideal case is with vanilla Village where your Estates become Villages and your Coppers become Poor Houses - you may even want 2 Remakes to speed this up. You can very quickly start playing multiple PHes worth the full $4 each.
But, if there is no Village and/or you don't want to go that route, then, yes, the presence of PH does weaken Remake's ability to thin your deck.
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #265 on: March 07, 2013, 09:33:14 pm »
+1

Comparing the list to my list:

1   Jack of All Trades      +1
2   Remake      +1
3   Sea Hag      -2
4   Young Witch      +1
5   Caravan      +3
6   Conspirator      +8
7   Monument      -1
8   Tournament      -4
9   Procession      +16
10   Spice Merchant      +13
11   Moneylender      +15
12   Death Cart      +10
13   Bridge      -3
14   Militia      -7
15   Noble Brigand      +25
16   Bishop      -7
17   Wandering Minstrel      +11
18   Fortress      +11
19   Cutpurse      +13
20   Farming Village      +10
21   Worker's Village      -4
22   Quarry      +13
23   Throne Room      -8
24   Feodum      +10
25   Ironmonger      -12
26   Island      +5
27   Envoy      -8
28   Nomad Camp      +14
29   Gardens      -8
30   Mining Village      -6
31   Horse Traders      -11
32   Baron      -5
33   Silk Road      -17
34   Smithy      -16
35   Marauder      -24
36   Trader      0
37   Walled Village      +2
38   Scavenger      -5
39   Bureaucrat      +6
40   Coppersmith      +11
41   Navigator      +6
42   Remodel      -4
43   Ironworks      -6
44   Salvager      -32
45   Armory      -4
46   Scout      +7
47   Spy      +3
48   Feast      -5
49   Pirate Ship      -5
50   Talisman      -1
51   Treasure Map      -3
52   Rats      -6
53   Thief      -1


Comments (Where I was wrong): I overrated Death Cart by a little bit, although it is very very good in games where you get ruins.  I overrated Noble Brigand by a little bit, although it is much better than #40.  Probably more in the lines of #30 is a fair spot for it.  I overrated Nomad Camp by a lot; I think this is the case of me using the comparison program and accidentally comparing it better than a card early, or something like that.  I underrated Marauder, although not by a whole lot.  The ruins really aren't that bad, and the spoils it gains really isn't that good.  Yeah its a decent card that needs to be noticed, but it isn't nearly top 12 good.  Fair is probably around #20.  Lastly, I slightly underrated Ironmonger; I've gotten a little more appreciation for it, and would probably put it just inside the top 20.

Comments (Where I feel the list is wrong):  Spice Merchant and Moneylender are way too low.  They are both great at clearing out your deck while letting you still get early economy.  Great cards for building almost any engine.  Next, I truly believe as more people play more Dark Ages, both Wandering Minstrel and Fortress will shine as the two best $4 villages.  Both are A) very fun to play with and B) have a lot of powerful options.  Procession should not be 10 spots behind Throne Room; Throne Room needs an engine to be good, and in engines, there are very often cards you want at $1 more.  Maybe they are about equal; but in my limited experience Procession>Throne Room.  Coppersmith and Bureaucrat are underrated but only slightly.  Finally, I repeat for the thousandth time, Salvager is criminally overrated.  Maybe not quite to the place I have it, but the first digit of its rank should not be a 1!
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AJD

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #266 on: March 07, 2013, 09:49:25 pm »
0

Marauder is certainly weaker in certain contexts, such as the presence of Fairgrounds, Death Cart, or Scrying Pool. 

I played a Marauder–Fool's Gold game today and lost decisively against an opponent who went Bishop–Fool's Gold and bought no attacks at all—let alone the VP tokens from Bishop, she even had more green than me by the end! (I wasn't really planning to go Fool's Gold but felt I had to grab some of them to stop her from getting all 10.) I was surprised totally ignoring Marauder turned out to be that effective. My opening Marauder didn't show up till turn 5, though—is that enough to make the difference?
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Blueswan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #267 on: March 09, 2013, 09:15:51 am »
+1

I realize that I am a noob and would get crushed by 99% of the people here, but Death Cart is one of my favourite cards and I think that #22 sounds really low for such a powerful card.

In nearly all my games against bots where Death Cart is available I base my strategy around that card and I almost always beat the bots with this strategy.

It helps with support cards like Rats or really cheap actions, but even in games without such cards I find it works really well. Like in this game I just playeda couple of minutes ago: http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130309/log.50f70ca7e4b0c53c94b0ca2d.1362837512333.txt

I opened Forager/Death Cart. For the rest of the game I bought one more Forager, two more Death Carts, two silver, one gold and 6 provinces. Bought the 4th province in turn 13. Finished the game after turn 15 with the scoreline 36-16. Granted, this bot wasn't great, but those numbers look pretty decent to me. Granted the supply cards (Forager, Bureaucrat, Death Cart, Gardens, Remodel, Spy, Throne Room, Wandering Minstrel, Catacombs, Mine) were quite weak.

Add to this that Death Cart is an awesome defense against looters and I feel it should be ranked far higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #268 on: March 11, 2013, 04:02:56 pm »
0

It's the only infinite VP generating card. Bishop and Goons can generate infinite VPs, but they are dependant from Fortress, Rogue or Graverobber. But still I wouldn't call them infinite VP generating cards.

Bishop can generate any VP in any game. Just get down to a deck of bishop+nothing, play bishop every turn, get a VP. Yeah, it sucks, but so does going for just a single monument every turn. Heck, the bishop even thins you to make it more consistent.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #269 on: March 11, 2013, 04:45:41 pm »
0

It's the only infinite VP generating card. Bishop and Goons can generate infinite VPs, but they are dependant from Fortress, Rogue or Graverobber. But still I wouldn't call them infinite VP generating cards.

Bishop can generate any VP in any game. Just get down to a deck of bishop+nothing, play bishop every turn, get a VP. Yeah, it sucks, but so does going for just a single monument every turn. Heck, the bishop even thins you to make it more consistent.

Or just KC-Bishop for a +3VP every turn.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #270 on: March 11, 2013, 06:27:59 pm »
0

Death Cart is the only trasher that trashes itself.  I just realized this.  Puzzles!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #271 on: March 11, 2013, 08:29:29 pm »
+1

Death Cart is the only trasher that trashes itself.  I just realized this.  Puzzles!

Hermit

And also but technically not Island
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #272 on: March 11, 2013, 09:27:07 pm »
0

Death Cart is the only trasher that trashes itself.  I just realized this.  Puzzles!

Hermit

And also but technically not Island

Band of Misfits, depending on the board.  For instance, if both Remake and Feast are in the supply.  Or both Steward and Embargo.  Or Chapel and Urchin.

Also, this was the basis of my puzzle from last week.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 09:29:27 pm by SirPeebles »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #273 on: March 11, 2013, 09:35:48 pm »
0

Death Cart is the only trasher that trashes itself.  I just realized this.  Puzzles!

Hermit

And also but technically not Island

Band of Misfits, depending on the board.  For instance, if both Remake and Feast are in the supply.  Or both Steward and Embargo.  Or Chapel and Urchin.

Also, this was the basis of my puzzle from last week.

Similar things going on in this old peddler puzzle of mine. :)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #274 on: April 02, 2013, 03:21:38 am »
+3

I plan to continue this week. Sorry. Stay tuned.
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