Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12  All

Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)  (Read 124991 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #225 on: February 21, 2013, 10:09:42 am »
0

You're asking a loaded question. On one hand, you get diminishing returns from successive plays of Spy because you're more likely to hit a Victory card. On the other hand, the only way to reliably leave a Victory card on top in the first place is to play Spy successively.

If I really wanted to use Spy to slow down my opponent, I would not chance it with only a handful.
Logged

BiggerOil

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
  • Respect: +22
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #226 on: February 21, 2013, 10:16:35 am »
+2

I see Spy as just too big of an opportunity cost. There are very likely better $4 cards and even silver is probably better than Spy most of the time.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #227 on: February 21, 2013, 10:36:09 am »
+1

So, if I'm reading you correctly, you are saying that the only way to make Spy worthwhile (or, at least the attack part), is to buy a bunch of them, and essentially make it into Fortune Teller, which is considered the 6th worst $3 card? I'm not saying you're wrong, but that sure does show why Spy is so weak, and that we may be underestimating Fortune Teller.
I think you are underestimating Fortune Teller.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +748
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #228 on: February 24, 2013, 02:41:28 am »
+3

So, if I'm reading you correctly, you are saying that the only way to make Spy worthwhile (or, at least the attack part), is to buy a bunch of them, and essentially make it into Fortune Teller, which is considered the 6th worst $3 card? I'm not saying you're wrong, but that sure does show why Spy is so weak, and that we may be underestimating Fortune Teller.
I think you are underestimating Fortune Teller.
Everyone does!
Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

Blueswan

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 147
  • Respect: +38
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #229 on: February 27, 2013, 01:41:06 am »
0

This is very interesting. When can we expect part 5?
Logged

Jerk of All trades

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 126
  • Respect: +38
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #230 on: February 27, 2013, 07:03:03 pm »
0

I feel like conspirator is waaaaaay over-valued.  It's very strong in a number of decks. But even in perfect games it can get in the way of engines that it requires. (drawing smithy smithy, con,Con, copper). I mean, it's beautiful with minion or alchemist, or double tactician or something. But without extreme trashing, or Ironworks + lots of cheap cantrips I've seen conspirator get destroyed by simple BM decks.  Even with enablers that look ideal (oasis, market, villages, etc).
Logged

Powerman

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 766
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #231 on: February 27, 2013, 11:39:59 pm »
0

I feel like conspirator is waaaaaay over-valued.  It's very strong in a number of decks. But even in perfect games it can get in the way of engines that it requires. (drawing smithy smithy, con,Con, copper). I mean, it's beautiful with minion or alchemist, or double tactician or something. But without extreme trashing, or Ironworks + lots of cheap cantrips I've seen conspirator get destroyed by simple BM decks.  Even with enablers that look ideal (oasis, market, villages, etc).

Well, to be fair, drawing 4 terminals is never good.  That could be smithy smithy, masq, masq, copper and you wouldn't be happy either.
Logged
A man on a mission.

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #232 on: February 27, 2013, 11:47:03 pm »
0

I feel like conspirator is waaaaaay over-valued.  It's very strong in a number of decks. But even in perfect games it can get in the way of engines that it requires. (drawing smithy smithy, con,Con, copper). I mean, it's beautiful with minion or alchemist, or double tactician or something. But without extreme trashing, or Ironworks + lots of cheap cantrips I've seen conspirator get destroyed by simple BM decks.  Even with enablers that look ideal (oasis, market, villages, etc).

Well, to be fair, drawing 4 terminals is never good.  That could be smithy smithy, masq, masq, copper and you wouldn't be happy either.

But that's the point. Conspirator is a terminal if you draw it in your starting hand. You wouldn't usually build a deck with 2 Smithies and 2 Masqs. But you might build a deck with 4+ Conspirators and 4+ Smithies. At least, I have. Not sure if it's really a good idea. Maybe you need to be using non-terminal draw if you want to use Conspirators for money, but that becomes pretty limiting on its value...
Logged

Powerman

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 766
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #233 on: February 28, 2013, 12:02:51 am »
0

I feel like conspirator is waaaaaay over-valued.  It's very strong in a number of decks. But even in perfect games it can get in the way of engines that it requires. (drawing smithy smithy, con,Con, copper). I mean, it's beautiful with minion or alchemist, or double tactician or something. But without extreme trashing, or Ironworks + lots of cheap cantrips I've seen conspirator get destroyed by simple BM decks.  Even with enablers that look ideal (oasis, market, villages, etc).

Well, to be fair, drawing 4 terminals is never good.  That could be smithy smithy, masq, masq, copper and you wouldn't be happy either.

But that's the point. Conspirator is a terminal if you draw it in your starting hand. You wouldn't usually build a deck with 2 Smithies and 2 Masqs. But you might build a deck with 4+ Conspirators and 4+ Smithies. At least, I have. Not sure if it's really a good idea. Maybe you need to be using non-terminal draw if you want to use Conspirators for money, but that becomes pretty limiting on its value...

I typically view Conspirator as a terminal if relying on Villages and terminals to activate it, as you don't have as high of percentage of first two cards in your deck.  When using cantrips to activate it, I consider it much much more non terminal.  Any time you're needing to draw villages in your starting hand (whether Conspirator or Torturer or anything), you're going to have good hands and unlucky ones.
Logged
A man on a mission.

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #234 on: February 28, 2013, 11:07:38 am »
0

I feel like conspirator is waaaaaay over-valued.  It's very strong in a number of decks. But even in perfect games it can get in the way of engines that it requires. (drawing smithy smithy, con,Con, copper). I mean, it's beautiful with minion or alchemist, or double tactician or something. But without extreme trashing, or Ironworks + lots of cheap cantrips I've seen conspirator get destroyed by simple BM decks.  Even with enablers that look ideal (oasis, market, villages, etc).

Well, to be fair, drawing 4 terminals is never good.  That could be smithy smithy, masq, masq, copper and you wouldn't be happy either.

But that's the point. Conspirator is a terminal if you draw it in your starting hand. You wouldn't usually build a deck with 2 Smithies and 2 Masqs. But you might build a deck with 4+ Conspirators and 4+ Smithies. At least, I have. Not sure if it's really a good idea. Maybe you need to be using non-terminal draw if you want to use Conspirators for money, but that becomes pretty limiting on its value...

I typically view Conspirator as a terminal if relying on Villages and terminals to activate it, as you don't have as high of percentage of first two cards in your deck.  When using cantrips to activate it, I consider it much much more non terminal.  Any time you're needing to draw villages in your starting hand (whether Conspirator or Torturer or anything), you're going to have good hands and unlucky ones.

Most villages are cantrips though. 
Logged

Jerk of All trades

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 126
  • Respect: +38
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #235 on: February 28, 2013, 03:30:29 pm »
0

A lot of the time for Conspirator to be good, and enable a 2 province turn, you need like 5 or 6 of them. And that's just a ton of cards that like people said, CAN be terminal.  And If you have to invest in a action/draw engine, or a bunch of weak but expensive Cantrips to activate them. you find that you've spent a ton of turns on markets/villages/smithies and conspirators as well.

It's just one of those cards that sprinkles in to make an engine full of powerful cards just a little more valuable. But without any of it's prime combo buddies (alchemist, scryingpool, minion, peddler) it is extremely lackluster and is often not worth the risk of terminal collision.
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4085
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #236 on: February 28, 2013, 03:32:00 pm »
+1

This is very interesting. When can we expect part 5?

Thanks. A lot of going on IRL. I plan to release the next update this weekend and then continue to release them regularly gain twice a week.

DrFlux

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
  • Respect: +68
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #237 on: March 01, 2013, 09:30:01 am »
+2

Salvager is like #11, and remodel is in the 30's. Now I would agree that salvager is better, but THAT much better. In most cases, I feel like their advantages and disadvantages are similar.

Both are good for clearing out early estates, but are a swingy opener. Remodel is better with cheap engine pieces, salvager is better with more expensive desirable cards. Both can be used to accelerate the end game, by trashing golds and provinces for more provinces.

Clearly salvager is better, because its more flexible, for example you could trash a gold so that you can buy a platinum or colony. However 20+ places? That can't be right. My feeling is remodel is probably underrated. Salvager might be a little high, but not drastically.
Logged

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1323
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1379
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #238 on: March 01, 2013, 01:28:58 pm »
+1

Clearly salvager is better, because its more flexible, for example you could trash a gold so that you can buy a platinum or colony. However 20+ places? That can't be right.
That's an artefact of the voting system used, I think, rather than of people's opinions. If everyone is voting Salvager as just slightly better than Remodel, it'll end up with a much higher average score, even if everyone's preference between the two is slight.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #239 on: March 02, 2013, 11:25:06 am »
0

Clearly salvager is better, because its more flexible, for example you could trash a gold so that you can buy a platinum or colony. However 20+ places? That can't be right.
That's an artefact of the voting system used, I think, rather than of people's opinions. If everyone is voting Salvager as just slightly better than Remodel, it'll end up with a much higher average score, even if everyone's preference between the two is slight.

I don't think that's how the rating system works. You get that kind of phenomenon when you have something like a poll for which is better of two things where you vote for 1. Then the result can be 100%-0% if everyone prefers the same thing, even slightly. But here there's a ranking with linear scale, and 20+ cards landed between them. If everyone put them right next to each other, this wouldn't happen. People put a large gap, and I think it's justified.

Remodel is a little low, but Salvager is a lot better since:
1. There are just more situations where 1 expensive card is better than 2 slightly less expensive cards. Most notably, you can Salvage 5s to get Provinces, and you can Salvage Estates to get 5s.
2. It is much more rare that there's nothing at least acceptable to Salvage in a 5-card hand. A lot of kingdoms don't have a 2 that you want to Remodel Copper into, and you can't just trash it for nothing. And if you trash Silver, you lose buying power compared to simply not playing Remodel. At least Salvager gives +$1 there. Remodel is good (better than Salvager) for building engines with lots of cheap parts, and it's good in such engines, since the drawing helps find good targets, and the increase in total card cost maintains enough targets to keep Remodeling. But Salvager is also good in semi-engines and big money. It helps low-drawing strategies that need to end the game fast much more than remodel does. And this difference is bigger, at least imo, than the differnce between the two cards in larger draw engines.
Logged

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2982
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #240 on: March 02, 2013, 11:28:48 am »
+2

Also, it's not like cards are distributed uniformly over the quality scale. Even if Salvager is just slightly better than Remodel, that doesn't mean that you can't fit many cards in between.
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4085
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #241 on: March 04, 2013, 06:14:10 pm »
+1

Back to business: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6626.msg182281#msg182281

Sorry for the delay again, I was really busy.

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2644
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3388
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #242 on: March 04, 2013, 06:20:28 pm »
0

It's hard to criticize part 5. I'm not sure about Marauder, and a few of these cards--Bishop, Caravan, and Young Witch--could probably move up or down a place or two. But on the whole, yes, these are the best $4 cards.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

ChocophileBenj

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 504
  • Respect: +575
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #243 on: March 04, 2013, 06:31:11 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure too, but I expected Marauder to be higher, even though I didn't play with DA, because :
->even if ruins are not curses, they are most of the times as bad as them (okay, maybe abandoned mine -that has even a few synergies if you have MANY villages- and survivors aren't, though !)
->you gain spoils, so it's not so bad
But I still expect the top 3 in the $5 cards to be : 3# witch, 2# cultist, 1# mountebank---------------.
Logged
Chocolate is like victory points in Dominion. Both taste good but they'll hurt you if you eat too much of it instead of something else in your early days.

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2644
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3388
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #244 on: March 04, 2013, 06:38:28 pm »
+1

But I still expect the top 3 in the $5 cards to be : 3# witch, 2# cultist, 1# mountebank---------------.

I don't expect that to the $5s, nor should it. Witch is better than Mountebank, and both are significantly better than Cultist.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #245 on: March 04, 2013, 06:44:41 pm »
0

#6 Monument (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 82.3% ▲0.1pp / Median: 85.7% =0 / Standard Deviation: 16.6% ▼4.5pp
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 96.2% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 44.2% (2x), 1.9% (1x)

We're making a bigger jump of 6.1pp and there is Monument. It's on the same rank and has nearly the same points as last time. It has a really big outlier on second last, 4 votes below average and 14 votes above 90%.

You want to pick up Monument early in the game, because the more you play it, the more it's worth it. It's good in quick games without good additional buys, where it can help you to force your opponent to a 5/3 Province split to win the game. And it's good in decks where you can guarantee to play your Monument regularly. Monument / Chapel is the #57 ▼19 best opening. So one Monument is a great addition to a Hunting Party deck. Monument is also the only infinite VP generating card in the game. With a 5 card hand of 2 King's Courts and 3 Monuments you are guaranteed 9 VP per turn. But as it is terminal and when there are very good attacks on the board, then you have to ignore it.
       
Monument is no longer the only infinite VP card.  Bishop is as well, when you can gain from the trash with Rogue or Graverobber.  And of course, even more significantly is the Bishop-Fortress deck.[/td][/tr][/table]
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4085
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #246 on: March 04, 2013, 06:51:01 pm »
0

It's the only infinite VP generating card. Bishop and Goons can generate infinite VPs, but they are dependant from Fortress, Rogue or Graverobber. But still I wouldn't call them infinite VP generating cards.

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #247 on: March 04, 2013, 06:59:12 pm »
0

Goons can generate infinite VP in only really obscure edge cases, like Ambassador in two player game (or more with moat/trader), or with Trader after the Silver pile is empty.  Bishop with Graverobber/Rogue is rather edgy in practice, but Bishop/Fortress can be utterly dominant, and is more like to provide a successful infinite VP state than Monument ever is.

Also, if you have no cards in your deck, you can still play Bishop every turn for 1 VP and stop buying stuff.

Edit:  Evil idea.  Make a golden deck of KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Bishop.  3 VP each turn, and wreck there deck with six Sab plays.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 07:02:16 pm by SirPeebles »
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #248 on: March 04, 2013, 07:15:25 pm »
+1

I'm pretty sure too, but I expected Marauder to be higher, even though I didn't play with DA, because :
->even if ruins are not curses, they are most of the times as bad as them (okay, maybe abandoned mine -that has even a few synergies if you have MANY villages- and survivors aren't, though !)
->you gain spoils, so it's not so bad
But I still expect the top 3 in the $5 cards to be : 3# witch, 2# cultist, 1# mountebank---------------.

After playing Dark Ages a bunch, I feel that ruins are less painful than they look. Before playing with it, I definitely expected Marauder to be in the top few along with Sea Hag and Young Witch, but I'm pretty sure it's not.

Not saying I'm entirely convinced of where it should be, but I think it's easy to overestimate it by comparing it to Sea Hag.
Logged

Tables

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2816
  • Build more Bridges in the King's Court!
  • Respect: +3347
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« Reply #249 on: March 04, 2013, 07:54:33 pm »
+1

Hmm... there are a number of surprises to me on this list. I'd be pretty happy with this list I think if Monument and Marauder switched places. Ruins aren't as bad as curses, that's true, but giving out Ruins for $4 is still a powerful attack, and getting the Spoils along side it is pretty huge. I'd say that makes up more than the gap of not top-decking (compared to Sea Hag). Marauder definitely feels stronger than it's placed here, in my limited experience.

Monument... I really feel is overrated here, but yet I also think back to my games and can't really argue against it. Maybe it's a case of the theory and reality not matching up. The theory says, in terms of building up your deck this gives nothing but terminal +$2 for $4, so someone using more immediately useful cards SHOULD win that province split 5-3 on average in BMish matchups. And similarly the tempo loss of using it fairly early in an engine should mean that a similar engine without Monument builds up faster than you. But yet... I look back, and I see this kind of thing happen less than I expect. Hmm. I'm still not convinced it's 6th, but maybe it does just about deserve top 10.
Logged
...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12  All
 

Page created in 0.124 seconds with 21 queries.