Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 12  All

Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)  (Read 125038 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Eevee

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
  • Shuffle iT Username: Eevee
  • A wild Eevee appears!
  • Respect: +867
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #150 on: February 12, 2013, 02:34:45 am »
0

Ironworks seems crazy low.
Logged

Piemaster

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 260
  • Respect: +170
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2013, 10:22:59 am »
+1

Salvager/Scavenger is the new Mint/Mine for me.  I can just never remember which one is which.
Logged

flies

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 629
  • Shuffle iT Username: flies
  • Statistical mechanics of hard rods on a 1D lattice
  • Respect: +348
    • View Profile
    • ask the atheists
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #152 on: February 12, 2013, 11:42:46 am »
0

Quote
And it combos even better with Stash. 2 Scavengers and 4 Stashes guarantee you a Province each turn.
two scavengers and *three* stashes, isnt it?
Logged
Gotta be efficient when most of your hand coordination is spent trying to apply mascara to your beard.
flies Dominionates on youtube

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4085
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #153 on: February 12, 2013, 11:47:27 am »
+1

Quote
And it combos even better with Stash. 2 Scavengers and 4 Stashes guarantee you a Province each turn.
two scavengers and *three* stashes, isnt it?

A hand of 2 Scavengers and 3 Stashes would screw you up because you can't top-deck a Scavenger. The probablitity is low, but if you want to be sure, you need 4 Stashes (3 Scavengers would work too).

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #154 on: February 12, 2013, 07:26:18 pm »
0

In a mirror, you may well be better off taking the chance to get first crack at the Provinces.
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

Powerman

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 766
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #155 on: February 12, 2013, 10:52:01 pm »
0

Ironworks seems crazy low.

Why do you say that?
Logged
A man on a mission.

Eevee

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
  • Shuffle iT Username: Eevee
  • A wild Eevee appears!
  • Respect: +867
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #156 on: February 13, 2013, 04:18:16 am »
0

Ironworks seems crazy low.

Why do you say that?
The fact that it's almost anyways straight up dominant when paired with SR or gardens, how good it can be for engines when there are cheap components, not to mention the rare interactions with highway or even bridge and how strong it's with vineyards. A card that's so often just completely dominant and quite often pretty significant just deserves a higher rank, imo. Dark ages probably hurts IW a bit, I'm not taking that into account as i haven't played any DA still.
Logged

Tables

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2816
  • Build more Bridges in the King's Court!
  • Respect: +3347
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #157 on: February 13, 2013, 07:32:53 am »
0

I've found more and more that it's so hard to judge a lot of cards depending on how often they shine and how good they are under those conditions. For example consider the following card:

Super Village:
Action - $3
At the start of the game, roll two dice. If you roll two 6's, this card reads "+3 cards, +2 actions" for the rest of the game. Otherwise, it reads "+1 action"

Now this is obviously quite contrived, but one could argue it as being both the best, or the worst $3 quite legitimately. 1/36th of the time, it's totally bonkers, but the rest, it's worse than a $2. How much do we value that ~3% chance of dominance* when it's so bad otherwise? Some people would probably see it's dominance in those games, and give it a high rank because when it's good, it's so ludicrously good. Others would probably see that it's terrible 97% of the time, and give it a low rank. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but it's extremely hard to judge how to rate such a thing.

The issue is that, while this is a lot more extreme than what's really going on here, Ironworks is similar. It's dominating on Silk Road and Gardens boards, very good with Bridge, Highway and Vineyards, occasionally still good but otherwise, is very bad. There are other examples as well - Coppersmith is occasionally amazing, in a draw-your-deck engine without trashing, it's a terminal +$7, but usually, it's a card to avoid.

The natural human tendancy, I feel, is to swing in one direction or the other.

*I am assuming that when the double 6's are rolled it's dominant, but even then I guess there are boards when it wouldn't be.
Logged
...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Powerman

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 766
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #158 on: February 13, 2013, 08:35:31 am »
0

Ironworks seems crazy low.

Why do you say that?
The fact that it's almost anyways straight up dominant when paired with SR or gardens, how good it can be for engines when there are cheap components, not to mention the rare interactions with highway or even bridge and how strong it's with vineyards. A card that's so often just completely dominant and quite often pretty significant just deserves a higher rank, imo. Dark ages probably hurts IW a bit, I'm not taking that into account as i haven't played any DA still.

Well, all of those may or may not be true, but I guess my problem stems from the similarity to workshop.  Ironworks is obviously better than Workshop... but not by THAT much.  Yes, the +Action really helps in engines.  But the +$1 is not that big of a deal, and the +card normally is not that important either.  And workshop is 29/32 for $3 cards. 
Logged
A man on a mission.

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1490
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #159 on: February 13, 2013, 08:56:08 am »
0

I've found more and more that it's so hard to judge a lot of cards depending on how often they shine and how good they are under those conditions. For example consider the following card:

I think also last time the discussion was mostly on this point, and you just have to leave it like that.  I think the comments are a good place to explain which card have the potential to be better and why.

Personally, I prefer(ed) [didn't vote this time] cards that have the potential to be good, because a) they are usually underated and b) you can just not buy them.  If course everything has somehow to be scaled by the probability that they are good.

@WS/Ironworks: I got to like these a bit more in recent times, basically every engine that is worth building relies on one part which costs $4 or less, and thus these cards a a great help to build it fastly.  And of course the +1action of the IW, but also sometimes the option for +$1/+1card to get to a crucial $5 are very helpfull when building an engine.  But I wouldn't put WS that much behind for this kind of game.

But especially IW is not "very bad" except occasionally.  You can use it in engines, you can use it in slogs, especially with cursers to gain Silvers, it's great in rushes.  There might be better cards for this, but Silver gainers are not that plenty. So there basically is just BigMoney left where it's bad.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11809
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12849
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #160 on: February 13, 2013, 09:30:04 am »
0

But especially IW is not "very bad" except occasionally.  You can use it in engines, you can use it in slogs, especially with cursers to gain Silvers, it's great in rushes.  There might be better cards for this, but Silver gainers are not that plenty. So there basically is just BigMoney left where it's bad.
BM/IW is by itself bad, but Ironworks isn't necessarily bad in all Big Money decks either. It's worse than Jack pretty much always, but there are cases when you want a Jack even though the Jack you're getting isn't quite as good as Jack.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

shraeye

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 690
  • Shuffle iT Username: shraeye
  • More Graph Theory please
  • Respect: +299
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #161 on: February 13, 2013, 11:30:56 am »
0

Baron seems low to me.  I know there are times when it's not a useful card, and you don't want multiples very often (or ever?).  But I've virtually never seen it NOT be an opening buy. 

A must-open card like this deserves to me much higher than #27
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #162 on: February 13, 2013, 11:36:29 am »
+2

Baron seems low to me.  I know there are times when it's not a useful card, and you don't want multiples very often (or ever?).  But I've virtually never seen it NOT be an opening buy. 

A must-open card like this deserves to me much higher than #27

I don't consider Baron to be must-open, even before considering Shelters games.
Logged

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1323
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1379
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #163 on: February 13, 2013, 01:49:02 pm »
+1

But especially IW is not "very bad" except occasionally.  You can use it in engines, you can use it in slogs, especially with cursers to gain Silvers, it's great in rushes.  There might be better cards for this, but Silver gainers are not that plenty. So there basically is just BigMoney left where it's bad.
BM/IW is by itself bad, but Ironworks isn't necessarily bad in all Big Money decks either. It's worse than Jack pretty much always, but there are cases when you want a Jack even though the Jack you're getting isn't quite as good as Jack.
I'm reminded of the Guardian's review of Anger Management, which they described as starring "Jack Nicholson playing a Jack Nicholson who's not as good a Jack Nicholson as the Jack Nicholson he played in About Schmidt or As Good As It Gets, but a better Jack Nicholson than the Jack Nicholson he played in Something's Gotta Give".
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2644
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3388
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #164 on: February 13, 2013, 01:50:45 pm »
0

I did play a board once where the dominant strategy was Big Money Ironworks. It was like a submission for the worst kingdom ever, or something. Bunch of villages with no draw, I think. But generally, Ironworks does little for a money deck.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

Powerman

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 766
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #165 on: February 13, 2013, 05:40:05 pm »
0

Baron seems low to me.  I know there are times when it's not a useful card, and you don't want multiples very often (or ever?).  But I've virtually never seen it NOT be an opening buy. 

A must-open card like this deserves to me much higher than #27

It is far, far, far, far from a must open card.  I buy it in a total of 40% of games, and I am surprised it is even that high.  Sure, if you connect with an estate every time, it's great.  But often times there is trashing, or other terminals you want to play, or you just can't connect them, and then it is such a bad card.  And even when it's great, it's not that great.

Additionally, on the list of Best/Worst openings, the highest Baron opening is Baron/Chapel at a level 1 and #607 overall... right behind Trader/Lighthouse and Walled Village/Steward. 
Logged
A man on a mission.

achmed_sender

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 234
  • Shuffle iT Username: achmedsender
  • Respect: +202
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #166 on: February 14, 2013, 04:53:40 am »
0


Additionally, on the list of Best/Worst openings, the highest Baron opening is Baron/Chapel at a level 1 and #607 overall... right behind Trader/Lighthouse and Walled Village/Steward.

...Which are power-openings, of course ;)
Logged

brokoli

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1119
  • Respect: +786
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #167 on: February 14, 2013, 05:23:05 am »
0

I think Worker's village is overrated because often you play more than one village per turn, and you usually don't need more than 1 additionnal +buy.
I tend to think Mining village is the best of the $4 villages, but all are pretty close (except walled).
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4085
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #168 on: February 14, 2013, 05:24:59 am »
0

fyi, I wanted to upload the next part yesterday, but my video didn't want to render somehow. I try it again today.

Alexmf

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
  • Respect: +21
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #169 on: February 15, 2013, 01:09:34 pm »
+1

Maybe just up the list without the video meanwhile? :)
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4085
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #170 on: February 15, 2013, 09:45:40 pm »
0

Maybe just up the list without the video meanwhile? :)

I rendered it again and now it worked. Strange.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6626.msg182280#msg182280

I'm interested in your comments ... because I think there will be a lot to say this time.

Powerman

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 766
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #171 on: February 15, 2013, 10:07:24 pm »
0

Salvager at #12?  #12?  That is way way way too high.

Let's look at it closer though, as obviously some people disagree with me:

Early:
-It can trash coppers.  This is identical to Trade Route, which most people agree is horrible as an opener.
-It can trash estates.  This is nice, but after matching up with the first estate it becomes very difficult to match up with an estates.

Middle:
-Not a whole lot you want to trash to it.  You can trash Silvers, but that's basically a terminal copper.  You can trash coppers for a terminal negative copper.  You can keep hunting for your estate, but that's not going to work so well.

Late:
-You can salvage your Gold and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).
-You can salvage your Province and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).

It is really only better than Remodel when you would rather have a 5 than a 4 and a 3.  Which is often, but not always.  Yes it does deck thinning, but single card deck thinning is not so hot.

I would drop it at least 30 slots, but rank 12?  Really? Really?
Logged
A man on a mission.

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1709
  • Respect: +4329
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #172 on: February 15, 2013, 10:43:17 pm »
0

Salvager at #12?  #12?  That is way way way too high.

Let's look at it closer though, as obviously some people disagree with me:

Early:
-It can trash coppers.  This is identical to Trade Route, which most people agree is horrible as an opener.
-It can trash estates.  This is nice, but after matching up with the first estate it becomes very difficult to match up with an estates.

Middle:
-Not a whole lot you want to trash to it.  You can trash Silvers, but that's basically a terminal copper.  You can trash coppers for a terminal negative copper.  You can keep hunting for your estate, but that's not going to work so well.

Late:
-You can salvage your Gold and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).
-You can salvage your Province and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).

It is really only better than Remodel when you would rather have a 5 than a 4 and a 3.  Which is often, but not always.  Yes it does deck thinning, but single card deck thinning is not so hot.

I would drop it at least 30 slots, but rank 12?  Really? Really?

I don't know if the ranking is correct, but you're clearly underselling Salvager. Especially the difference between getting a 5 versus a 4 and a 3, which is going to be huge in a lot of games. Salvager's other main advantage over Remodel is of course the flexibility of spending that coin in whatever way you like, which I find makes it combo more effectively with most gainers. Salvager gives you options in hands that otherwise might be limited. It allows you to squeeze out all the coin value of your deck, and recoup your early spending.

You also mention that it can be useless in the middle of the game, which is true, but Salvager has the effect of shortening the middle part of a game.
Logged

Schneau

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1174
  • Shuffle iT Username: Schneau
  • Respect: +1461
    • View Profile
    • Rainwave
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #173 on: February 15, 2013, 10:43:38 pm »
0

Salvager at #12?  #12?  That is way way way too high.

Let's look at it closer though, as obviously some people disagree with me:

Early:
-It can trash coppers.  This is identical to Trade Route, which most people agree is horrible as an opener.
-It can trash estates.  This is nice, but after matching up with the first estate it becomes very difficult to match up with an estates.

Middle:
-Not a whole lot you want to trash to it.  You can trash Silvers, but that's basically a terminal copper.  You can trash coppers for a terminal negative copper.  You can keep hunting for your estate, but that's not going to work so well.

Late:
-You can salvage your Gold and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).
-You can salvage your Province and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).

It is really only better than Remodel when you would rather have a 5 than a 4 and a 3.  Which is often, but not always.  Yes it does deck thinning, but single card deck thinning is not so hot.

I would drop it at least 30 slots, but rank 12?  Really? Really?

Late:
-You can salvage a $4 or $5 card, making it so you can buy a Province instead of a Duchy, thus winning the game. Another card (Remodel) cannot do this, and could only convert your $4 or $5 card into a Duchy, which is ok but not that great.
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #174 on: February 15, 2013, 11:06:43 pm »
0

I don't think that Salvager is way too high, but Remodel is definitely too low.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 12  All
 

Page created in 0.224 seconds with 21 queries.