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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)  (Read 124982 times)

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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #125 on: February 07, 2013, 04:21:42 pm »
+1

Now, I haven't been watching the videos, so maybe I don't have a leg to stand on here. That being said, isn't it probably making the videos that's taking so long? Are they really necessary? How much do they add to the experience?

I gotta say, I thought this until I actually watched the videos (well, listened to them). I'm pretty sure that the text is the same as what is posted here, but it is super-nice in that format.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #126 on: February 07, 2013, 04:35:17 pm »
+6

Thanks for the feedback.

It takes some time, yes, but I wouldn't be able to update sooner anyway, I promise. Last weekend I was away and couldn't do anything and this week I'm not feeling that good/concentrated, so I haven't played any Dominion or couldn't concentrate. But I'm working on the next update now and try to publish part IV as an apologize on Saturday. I promised two parts per week and I still try to do it.

SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #127 on: February 07, 2013, 05:19:58 pm »
+6

If we seem impatient at times, it's only because of how much we appreciate your work, Qvist.  These lists are really fun.
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flies

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #128 on: February 10, 2013, 12:15:32 am »
+1

we don't appreciate your work.  instead, we are incredibly upset.  you said the videos woud be ready like, ten years ago.  are you crazy?  do you think we don't care? the sorrow! the horror! the horror!
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #129 on: February 10, 2013, 02:49:29 pm »
0

we don't appreciate your work.  instead, we are incredibly upset.  you said the videos woud be ready like, ten years ago.  are you crazy?  do you think we don't care? the sorrow! the horror! the horror!

Stop making me a bad conscience. Anyway. Next part is up.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6626.msg182279#msg182279

I try to catch up soon. Next 2 parts will be uploaded next week for sure.

Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #130 on: February 10, 2013, 03:43:40 pm »
0

Thoughts on Part 3.

-Glad Spice Merchant is moving up.  It really is a nice card and I think it still deserves to be up a few spots higher.

-I'm a little surprised that we see Procession below TR.  Both cards are mainly used in engines, and in most engines there are cards at a lot of price points you want.  True, I've mainly played Procession in high-DA cards, but it is simply outrageous in those games.

-Wandering Minstrel is underrated.  Yes, it can discard your Golds and Silvers.  But if you're building an engine, that's still not a BAD thing.  And if you're buying villages, you're probably building an engine.  It's kind of like if Golem discards your treasure... and that never makes me feel Golem is a worse card.  I think it is the #1 $4 village, but... perhaps #2.

-I think it's a mistake to have Cutpurse so far away from Militia.  Their attacks are very similar early, and that is when the attack matters most.  Neither attack really does much if your opponent has KC-KC-Torturer... but for early game economy, they are very similar.

-How haven't we seen Salvager?  It is effectively Remodel.  I put it down in the 40s, and I am shocked it hasn't been seen yet.

-A few other cards that I think are misplaced, but that will wait until later.
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achmed_sender

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #131 on: February 10, 2013, 03:51:13 pm »
0

Wandering Ministrel is really underrated, I think. It's so good to make sure that you're able to draw your whole deck every turn and not depend on shuffle luck. You just draw the engine components first, and then the money. It's also a village which can be worth in money-ish games.
How haven't we seen Salvager?  It is effectively Remodel.  I put it down in the 40s, and I am shocked it hasn't been seen yet.

I don't think Salvager is too high, more like Remodel was way to low
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #132 on: February 10, 2013, 04:02:38 pm »
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I haven't played with Scavenger much at all, but its power has been deceptive in every game that I've played with it.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #133 on: February 10, 2013, 04:04:30 pm »
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Well, wherever Throne Room ends up, it's overrated. Not sure it's better than Procession. Positive its not better than Spice Merchant. Which brings me to... Spice Merchant. Really a great card, and probably underranked here, still. That's a card that really gets your engine rolling.

I have no experience with Wandering Minstrel, but I can see that it's probably at least a little better than it came out here. I'm not sure Farming Village is worse than Mining Village. In fact, I suspect it's better.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #134 on: February 10, 2013, 04:46:21 pm »
0

-Wandering Minstrel is underrated.  Yes, it can discard your Golds and Silvers.  But if you're building an engine, that's still not a BAD thing.  And if you're buying villages, you're probably building an engine.  It's kind of like if Golem discards your treasure... and that never makes me feel Golem is a worse card.  I think it is the #1 $4 village, but... perhaps #2.
I agree that it is better than I first thought. I still have to play more with it. But the 2 big problems are undeniable: Looter games and the problem of putting 3 terminal actions on top of the deck without being able to do anything against it.

-I think it's a mistake to have Cutpurse so far away from Militia.  Their attacks are very similar early, and that is when the attack matters most.  Neither attack really does much if your opponent has KC-KC-Torturer... but for early game economy, they are very similar.
I disagree. On boards with good trashing available where you have want to build a good engine losing 2 cards can really hurt. Cutpurse only hurts about the first 2-3 reshuffles, is better in multiplayer and is still decent against BM.

-How haven't we seen Salvager?  It is effectively Remodel.  I put it down in the 40s, and I am shocked it hasn't been seen yet.
No, definitely not. I'm exaggerating, but there's a big different between Workshop and terminal $4. I hope you see what I mean. And you can use Salvager just to trash and don't have to gain anything, unlike Remodel.

Well, wherever Throne Room ends up, it's overrated.
Marin would disagree ;)

werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #135 on: February 10, 2013, 06:00:21 pm »
0

I'm surprised we haven't seen Death Cart yet, after all the fuss everyone made about my article.
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #136 on: February 10, 2013, 07:10:09 pm »
0

-Wandering Minstrel is underrated.  Yes, it can discard your Golds and Silvers.  But if you're building an engine, that's still not a BAD thing.  And if you're buying villages, you're probably building an engine.  It's kind of like if Golem discards your treasure... and that never makes me feel Golem is a worse card.  I think it is the #1 $4 village, but... perhaps #2.
I agree that it is better than I first thought. I still have to play more with it. But the 2 big problems are undeniable: Looter games and the problem of putting 3 terminal actions on top of the deck without being able to do anything against it.
Problem #1:  Yes, it doesn't clear off the ruins, but neither of the other villages do either.  So sure you could clear off Golds and leave ruins, but the ruins weren't going anywhere anyway.  So effectively you have to ask yourself- "Is the average value of my action cards greater than or less than the average value of my treasure cards plus my victory cards plus my curse cards?"  And if the answer is no, chances are it isn't an engine, and chances are you would have been better off with a silver.

Problem #2:  Yes, it can leave 3 terminal actions on top.  But, that means the top 3 cards were terminal actions.  And if you had played any other village, there STILL would be 3 terminal actions on top (barring FV and an estate, but edge case).  So it's still not really worse in this situation.

Quote
-I think it's a mistake to have Cutpurse so far away from Militia.  Their attacks are very similar early, and that is when the attack matters most.  Neither attack really does much if your opponent has KC-KC-Torturer... but for early game economy, they are very similar.
I disagree. On boards with good trashing available where you have want to build a good engine losing 2 cards can really hurt. Cutpurse only hurts about the first 2-3 reshuffles, is better in multiplayer and is still decent against BM.

Well, I agree that Militia is better.  I think I put it about 5 higher, and I think that Militia deserves to be that much higher or maybe a touch more.  It's looking like it could be a good 20 spots higher though, and that IS too much. 

Quote
-How haven't we seen Salvager?  It is effectively Remodel.  I put it down in the 40s, and I am shocked it hasn't been seen yet.
No, definitely not. I'm exaggerating, but there's a big different between Workshop and terminal $4. I hope you see what I mean. And you can use Salvager just to trash and don't have to gain anything, unlike Remodel.

Yes it can trash, but it isn't particularly good at it.  Both Salvager and Remodel are more useful in engines than in BM, and generally speaking in engines, there is SOMETHING you want at less than or equal to $4 for you to remodel your estates into.  And if there is a $2, you can turn your coppers into.  Because mostly speaking, Salvaging your coppers is not so hot.  Plus, Remodel adds $2 of value to your deck every time, while Salvager adds $0 of value to your deck every time.  Most of the good Salvager tricks (a la, BV, Peddler, Gold-->Province, Province-->Province) work the same or better with Remodel.  I think both are overrated, but Salvager much much moreso.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #137 on: February 10, 2013, 07:15:07 pm »
0

Wandering Minstrel is superior to Mining Village. I think some players haven't "got it" just yet. But, when you do get that card, it can make for some powerful engines. I think the biggest problem is knowing when not to buy it or to buy it sparingly. But, I think Wandering Minstrel is one of the best villages for helping get your engine purring.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #138 on: February 10, 2013, 07:48:11 pm »
0

This is a tough list to judge, considering how ridiculously close a lot of cards are. A few standouts for me though are:

Procession - I'm surprised to see this below Throne Room, although I guess it's 'trap' feeling is probably the reason, and especially with less experience I did too. I'll chalk this up to DA inexperience, but it seems like a much better card now I've played with it a bit, and either way, it's overrated where it is. Speaking of which, Throne Room is ridiculously overrated now. I have it 42nd, and I don't think it should be much higher. Throning a single action is generally good, but not easy until you have a good engine running. Throning Throne Rooms is of course better, but far too often, I find I'd have been better off with just more engine components, because while the TR hands are great, you lose a bit of tempo on average due to TR collisions without the good parts and the like.

And who put Farming Village 2nd last ??? ? That's like... what, really? Someone who really doesn't believe in the engine?
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #139 on: February 10, 2013, 08:11:22 pm »
+1

Throne Room is probably just fine where it is. It's not incredibly ridiculous like KC, but it is pretty ridiculous. In any decent engine it acts like another copy of a $5+ card, or it enables you to play another terminal, or whatever. You make it seem like it's hard to get TR to collide with another Action, but the odds are pretty decent on the second reshuffle if you already pick up other Actions on turns 1-4, and it's even better with some trashing or gaining.
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serakfalcon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #140 on: February 10, 2013, 11:16:53 pm »
0

Quote
Procession - I'm surprised to see this below Throne Room, although I guess it's 'trap' feeling is probably the reason, and especially with less experience I did too.
I think I'd disagree. It deserves to be where it is. Yes, the action upgrading is cool, but you have to be more careful than TR because you're trashing your engine pieces- if there isn't a good progression of action cards to upgrade into, you can't use procession as an engine piece, but you can always use throne room. There's a lot of neat tricks with procession where its very powerful, but there are lots of sets where its not as useful as TR
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #141 on: February 10, 2013, 11:19:48 pm »
0

I don't know, I think Throne Room can also be a trap too, though. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Throne Room is bad by any stretch of the imagination. But I don't think it should be ahead of Spice Merchant.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #142 on: February 11, 2013, 12:29:57 am »
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Getting any sort of agreement on the middle tier of 4's is probably impossible. There's just too many cards, and too many ways to value them. I have throne room around #30, but I have no problem with it being in the top 20. I could see it going either way. Off by 10 spots seems like not a huge deal here. I think Island and Cutpurse are at least 10-15 spots too low, but I could be overrating them.

The one thing I really don't get is Baron. Baron is basically only good if you have an engine that can draw up to big hands without trashing Estates. You need the big hand both to help line up with the Estate, and because you're only getting $4 out of 2 cards, so it's not really high-density money. And in games with Shelters, you even have to buy or gain the Estate to get any money out of it at all!
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #143 on: February 11, 2013, 01:43:43 am »
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I just hate Baron, so I can't judge it fairly. Baron always misses Estates on Turns 3/4/5 for me.
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Lekkit

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #144 on: February 11, 2013, 01:55:43 am »
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Why is Scavenger so low? In my opinion it's probably one of the best non attack $4s. It's not just a better Chancellor. Imagine Scheming any card from your deck that you didn't draw this turn. Sounds pretty nifty to me.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #145 on: February 11, 2013, 02:10:02 am »
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Why is Scavenger so low? In my opinion it's probably one of the best non attack $4s. It's not just a better Chancellor. Imagine Scheming any card from your deck that you didn't draw this turn. Sounds pretty nifty to me.

From my experience Scavenger has the problem, that it's only okayish in BM decks (there are probably better terminals most times), and it only shines in suboptimal engines. In very good engines, where you draw your deck more or less reliably or at least play your key actions nearly each turn, it's basically useless.

I feel that Procession is a bit too high. It has to some extend the Coppersmith issue, that it's really great when it's great, but many many times it's just a dead card.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 02:11:21 am by kn1tt3r »
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thirtyseven

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #146 on: February 11, 2013, 11:50:35 am »
0

(Disclaimer: I mostly want to post here in order to get thread updates more easily :))

What $4 Dark Ages cards have we yet to see on this list?
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #147 on: February 11, 2013, 11:52:14 am »
0

(Disclaimer: I mostly want to post here in order to get thread updates more easily :))

What $4 Dark Ages cards have we yet to see on this list?

Death Cart, Ironmonger and Marauder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #148 on: February 11, 2013, 12:57:45 pm »
+1

(Disclaimer: I mostly want to post here in order to get thread updates more easily :))

What $4 Dark Ages cards have we yet to see on this list?

Death Cart, Ironmonger and Marauder

Death cart is going to be too high I think. Ironmonger and Marauder are both really solid cards though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #149 on: February 11, 2013, 02:29:43 pm »
0

(Disclaimer: I mostly want to post here in order to get thread updates more easily :))

What $4 Dark Ages cards have we yet to see on this list?

Death Cart, Ironmonger and Marauder



Yes, I voted Ironmonger and Marauder both in the top 10 and one of them even in the top 5.

Death cart is going to be too high I think. Ironmonger and Marauder are both really solid cards though.
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