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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)  (Read 125036 times)

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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #100 on: January 31, 2013, 03:51:19 am »
0

Armory - I'm not sure, but this also feels high. Gaining and topdecking is nice, but as I've already said, I feel like the best and main use of the gainers is for rushes. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate that.

So, what, the lengths that people go to gain a card and play it in the same turn is nothing more than wasting effort on a cute trick?

That's something I forgot to mention. Playing a village, playing a Armory to topdeck a $4 like Conspirator and then play another village to draw it and you now have a new activated Conspirator in hand. You could cool tricks with Armory, maybe you even have a Province in hand and topdeck a Tournament, draw it and bam! But it still needs villages...

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #101 on: January 31, 2013, 06:05:24 am »
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Well, any of the Workshop types can also be handy when there are a lot of cheap components for your engine, like with Oasis and Menagerie or something.

If there is only one stack, like Caravan, I'm highly skeptical of buying Workshop for it, but with two such stacks I'm much more inclined.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #102 on: January 31, 2013, 08:04:27 am »
+1

Armory - I'm not sure, but this also feels high. Gaining and topdecking is nice, but as I've already said, I feel like the best and main use of the gainers is for rushes. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate that.

So, what, the lengths that people go to gain a card and play it in the same turn is nothing more than wasting effort on a cute trick?

I never said that, but I rarely see that kind of thing actually happen, it's generally theorycraft.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #103 on: January 31, 2013, 08:13:52 am »
+1

I'm still not entirely sure, but I have the feeling that Feodum is somewhat underrated.

I once had a Feodum game with Squire and some other source of +buy, and while my opponent struggled for the last Provinces, I just (after having emptied the Feodum pile) acquired Silvers en masse, and pushed my score to >100 points. Now, maybe this was an extraordinary board for Feodum (there was no Trader though), and maybe my opponent was not playing optimal, but hey, I don't think that similar circumstances are THAT rare.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #104 on: January 31, 2013, 08:58:29 am »
+1

One thing about Feodum is the silvers help you get provinces as well as the feodums. Only losing the province split 5-3, or even tying it, while also having 3 point feodums is not hard to do
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #105 on: January 31, 2013, 11:04:19 am »
+2

Armory - I'm not sure, but this also feels high. Gaining and topdecking is nice, but as I've already said, I feel like the best and main use of the gainers is for rushes. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate that.

You absolutely need to re-evaluate this. The main use of gainers is to gain engine components. Gaining villages is crucial for +cards/+actions engines when you only have light trashing, since you need to have a good enough village density to not end up with dead turns. Typically these engines involve a good $5 card, which you will buy, and a $4-or-less village you can gain with a Workshop-type. Armory's benefit is nice because it lets you always start your turn with a village if you do the gain last, so it's almost like Workshop+Scheme until the villages run out. But by then, hopefully you've gained enough that you'll be okay. I think Armory is actually a little low on this list currently.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #106 on: January 31, 2013, 12:30:00 pm »
0

Armory - I'm not sure, but this also feels high. Gaining and topdecking is nice, but as I've already said, I feel like the best and main use of the gainers is for rushes. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate that.

You absolutely need to re-evaluate this. The main use of gainers is to gain engine components. Gaining villages is crucial for +cards/+actions engines when you only have light trashing, since you need to have a good enough village density to not end up with dead turns. Typically these engines involve a good $5 card, which you will buy, and a $4-or-less village you can gain with a Workshop-type. Armory's benefit is nice because it lets you always start your turn with a village if you do the gain last, so it's almost like Workshop+Scheme until the villages run out. But by then, hopefully you've gained enough that you'll be okay. I think Armory is actually a little low on this list currently.

Thanks for the clear explanation. Sounds interesting, I might have to try it out next time the pieces seem to fit.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #107 on: February 01, 2013, 09:26:39 am »
+1

So I've come to feel that treasure map, while not quite a "good" card, is under-rated. At least its better than feast/nomad-camp/rats/pirate-ship. Obviously waiting for your maps to line up at random is bad, but I win lots of games by using haven/warehouse/courtyard/tactician to line them up. Also, in a situation where you have heavy trashing, or draw your deck every turn, it can be great. Its hard to beat four gold for two installments of $4 for boosting your economy. I often play games where people forget this option exists.

PS. The jerk in me wants to say that I hope no one actually listens to this post, because there's nothing more fun than beating someone with a "bad" card like treasure map.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #108 on: February 01, 2013, 09:36:20 am »
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I think Armory is as good as Ironworks. The top-deck thing can be very important, and there is some nice tricks to do. I think Armory is good for engines and combos, while Ironworks is better for alt vp.

Also, treasure map is low indeed, better than navigator, bureaucrat, pirate ship, nomad camp and walled village at least. I think remodel is a little too low as well.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #109 on: February 01, 2013, 02:18:05 pm »
0

So I've come to feel that treasure map, while not quite a "good" card, is under-rated. At least its better than feast/nomad-camp/rats/pirate-ship. Obviously waiting for your maps to line up at random is bad, but I win lots of games by using haven/warehouse/courtyard/tactician to line them up. Also, in a situation where you have heavy trashing, or draw your deck every turn, it can be great. Its hard to beat four gold for two installments of $4 for boosting your economy. I often play games where people forget this option exists.

PS. The jerk in me wants to say that I hope no one actually listens to this post, because there's nothing more fun than beating someone with a "bad" card like treasure map.
Agreed - for TM to work you need methods to get the two together. Haven, Native Village (if you're using it liberally or not using it blindly), Scrying Pool, Tactition, Courtyard, etc. can all work, as can heavy trashing. I don't see too much of a problem opening TM/Chapel, so long as you can pick up a silver to make sure you can get the other TM w/o delay.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #110 on: February 01, 2013, 02:46:02 pm »
+1

I actually found armoury quite poor. While putting four cost card on top of the deck sounds good, you'd have that four cost card in your hand already if you'd bought it instead of the armoury. If you are getting green cards you don't want them on top of your deck. If you have a big engine deck then you could probably draw all your deck and the discard pile in the same turn anyway. It clearly has its uses but it seems to me that the niche where it is better than an ironworks is quite small.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #111 on: February 01, 2013, 04:14:32 pm »
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I actually found armoury quite poor. While putting four cost card on top of the deck sounds good, you'd have that four cost card in your hand already if you'd bought it instead of the armoury. If you are getting green cards you don't want them on top of your deck. If you have a big engine deck then you could probably draw all your deck and the discard pile in the same turn anyway. It clearly has its uses but it seems to me that the niche where it is better than an ironworks is quite small.

But, hey, see, you get to use the Armory... what do you know!  More than once!  It's... I don't know, what would you call it... an investment, maybe?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #112 on: February 04, 2013, 04:17:39 pm »
+1

I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #113 on: February 04, 2013, 04:30:25 pm »
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I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.

Non DA Cards that interact nicely are Upgrade, Apprentice, Remodel, Remake, Bishop, Develop, Expand, Forge, Governor (esp. Opponent's remodel option), Lookout (somewhat), Saboteur (somewhat).

So that is 11 Non-DA cards that have easy "neat tricks" that can be performed.  There are 167 (I think) Non-DA cards, so assuming you play with Fortress and no other DA cards, you have a:

1 - (156/167 x 155/166 x 154/165 x 153/164 x 152/163 x 151/162 x 150/161 x 149/160 x 148/159) = ~46.7% chance

Add in the neat DA tricks, and I think about 50% of boards will have a "neat trick" for Fortress to be >>> a vanilla village.  And quite frankly, walled village is nowhere near that much better than Village that often.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #114 on: February 04, 2013, 05:27:39 pm »
+1

I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.

Non DA Cards that interact nicely are Upgrade, Apprentice, Remodel, Remake, Bishop, Develop, Expand, Forge, Governor (esp. Opponent's remodel option), Lookout (somewhat), Saboteur (somewhat).

So that is 11 Non-DA cards that have easy "neat tricks" that can be performed.  There are 167 (I think) Non-DA cards, so assuming you play with Fortress and no other DA cards, you have a:

1 - (156/167 x 155/166 x 154/165 x 153/164 x 152/163 x 151/162 x 150/161 x 149/160 x 148/159) = ~46.7% chance

Add in the neat DA tricks, and I think about 50% of boards will have a "neat trick" for Fortress to be >>> a vanilla village.  And quite frankly, walled village is nowhere near that much better than Village that often.

Lookout somewhat?  I really like Fortress with Lookout.  I wouldn't get the two just for that combo, but it's really nice synergy later in the game when trashing is no longer a high priority.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #115 on: February 04, 2013, 05:47:15 pm »
0

I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.

Non DA Cards that interact nicely are Upgrade, Apprentice, Remodel, Remake, Bishop, Develop, Expand, Forge, Governor (esp. Opponent's remodel option), Lookout (somewhat), Saboteur (somewhat).

So that is 11 Non-DA cards that have easy "neat tricks" that can be performed.  There are 167 (I think) Non-DA cards, so assuming you play with Fortress and no other DA cards, you have a:

1 - (156/167 x 155/166 x 154/165 x 153/164 x 152/163 x 151/162 x 150/161 x 149/160 x 148/159) = ~46.7% chance

Add in the neat DA tricks, and I think about 50% of boards will have a "neat trick" for Fortress to be >>> a vanilla village.  And quite frankly, walled village is nowhere near that much better than Village that often.

Lookout somewhat?  I really like Fortress with Lookout.  I wouldn't get the two just for that combo, but it's really nice synergy later in the game when trashing is no longer a high priority.

Well, yeah.  That's why I put somewhat.  Apprentice-Fortress is a thing almost on its own.  Fortress just makes Lookout less risky later on.  But you get no benefit for doing that since you aren't thinning your deck or increasing hand size.  So it's nice, but not quite on the level of the rest.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #116 on: February 04, 2013, 06:59:43 pm »
0

I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.

Non DA Cards that interact nicely are Upgrade, Apprentice, Remodel, Remake, Bishop, Develop, Expand, Forge, Governor (esp. Opponent's remodel option), Lookout (somewhat), Saboteur (somewhat).

So that is 11 Non-DA cards that have easy "neat tricks" that can be performed.  There are 167 (I think) Non-DA cards, so assuming you play with Fortress and no other DA cards, you have a:

1 - (156/167 x 155/166 x 154/165 x 153/164 x 152/163 x 151/162 x 150/161 x 149/160 x 148/159) = ~46.7% chance

Add in the neat DA tricks, and I think about 50% of boards will have a "neat trick" for Fortress to be >>> a vanilla village.  And quite frankly, walled village is nowhere near that much better than Village that often.

Lookout somewhat?  I really like Fortress with Lookout.  I wouldn't get the two just for that combo, but it's really nice synergy later in the game when trashing is no longer a high priority.

Well, yeah.  That's why I put somewhat.  Apprentice-Fortress is a thing almost on its own.  Fortress just makes Lookout less risky later on.  But you get no benefit for doing that since you aren't thinning your deck or increasing hand size.  So it's nice, but not quite on the level of the rest.

You do get a benefit. The "trashed" Fortress goes into your hand, and then you can play it to draw the top-decked card and get an extra action, plus you filtered away the third card.
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #117 on: February 04, 2013, 07:03:57 pm »
0

I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.

Non DA Cards that interact nicely are Upgrade, Apprentice, Remodel, Remake, Bishop, Develop, Expand, Forge, Governor (esp. Opponent's remodel option), Lookout (somewhat), Saboteur (somewhat).

So that is 11 Non-DA cards that have easy "neat tricks" that can be performed.  There are 167 (I think) Non-DA cards, so assuming you play with Fortress and no other DA cards, you have a:

1 - (156/167 x 155/166 x 154/165 x 153/164 x 152/163 x 151/162 x 150/161 x 149/160 x 148/159) = ~46.7% chance

Add in the neat DA tricks, and I think about 50% of boards will have a "neat trick" for Fortress to be >>> a vanilla village.  And quite frankly, walled village is nowhere near that much better than Village that often.

Lookout somewhat?  I really like Fortress with Lookout.  I wouldn't get the two just for that combo, but it's really nice synergy later in the game when trashing is no longer a high priority.

Well, yeah.  That's why I put somewhat.  Apprentice-Fortress is a thing almost on its own.  Fortress just makes Lookout less risky later on.  But you get no benefit for doing that since you aren't thinning your deck or increasing hand size.  So it's nice, but not quite on the level of the rest.

You do get a benefit. The "trashed" Fortress goes into your hand, and then you can play it to draw the top-decked card and get an extra action, plus you filtered away the third card.

Well, you could have had a card in your hand instead of the Lookout, if you hadn't had it.  My point is if you want Lookout with Fortress, you'd probably want it without Fortress.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #118 on: February 04, 2013, 09:13:49 pm »
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Fortress tricks are a bit more than "neat."
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #119 on: February 04, 2013, 11:57:11 pm »
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You can't forget Salvager if you're talking about Fortress.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #120 on: February 07, 2013, 03:15:45 pm »
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I'm really sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but any news on when the next installment may be uploaded? I've been enjoying reading through the list and am excited to see what's next. =)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #121 on: February 07, 2013, 03:23:14 pm »
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Qvist works on Valve time: It's ready when it's ready.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #122 on: February 07, 2013, 03:41:11 pm »
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Now, I haven't been watching the videos, so maybe I don't have a leg to stand on here. That being said, isn't it probably making the videos that's taking so long? Are they really necessary? How much do they add to the experience?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #123 on: February 07, 2013, 03:48:01 pm »
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Now, I haven't been watching the videos, so maybe I don't have a leg to stand on here. That being said, isn't it probably making the videos that's taking so long? Are they really necessary? How much do they add to the experience?

The videos seem pretty popular on YouTube.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #124 on: February 07, 2013, 04:07:19 pm »
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Now, I haven't been watching the videos, so maybe I don't have a leg to stand on here. That being said, isn't it probably making the videos that's taking so long? Are they really necessary? How much do they add to the experience?

The videos seem pretty popular on YouTube.

OK, cool beans. Forget I said anything. Perhaps while I'm waiting for the next one, I should watch the others! :)

Too bad I do most of my DominionStrategy browsing while at work.
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