Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12  All

Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)  (Read 64133 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2396
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4068
    • View Profile
The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« on: January 24, 2013, 04:47:37 pm »
+7

Here's the video link:



The Best $4 Cards - Part 1/5
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#53 Scout (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 1.7% ▲0.3pp / Median: 0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 5.2% ▼1.3pp
Highest Value(s): 23.1% (1x), 19.2% (1x), 16.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (35x)

Scout is the worst $4 card again. There's no doubt about it. It has the lowest deviation in this list and it has a similar bad result als last time: Everyone voted it in the lower fourth and more than the half voted it last.

Scout has its uses. You don't need to spend an action, but it isn't a cantrip, so it really can hurt your deck. If you're massively going green this can be nice as it makes your next turn better, but is still not good. It has a nice synergy with Wishing Well (making it a cheap Lab) and of course it's great with dual-type-victory cards like Harem, Great Hall and Nobles, making Scout a Lab or even better. There might be more edge cases when Scout shines, but what makes Scout really bad is that even when it's good you often do better skipping Scout, because you waste a turn marginally improving your deck.
#52 Thief (Base) Weighted Average: 3.1% ▼0.9pp / Median: 1.9% ▼0.5pp / Standard Deviation: 6.6% ▼0.8pp
Highest Value(s): 42.3% (1x), 25.0% (1x), 14.3% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (8x)

So, Thief is still as bad as before. And again, there's no doubt. It has the second lowest deviation, it was voted 8 times last and only 3 players voted it above 10%.

An attack on such a low position may seem strange, but Thief has the big problem helping your opponent in the early game. It's a free trasher for your opponent and even later it's so risky hitting the Coppers of your opponent. Its only use may be in thin Chapel decks or if you manage to play it multiple times per turn. And it gets better in 3- or 4-player games, where you can minimize the risk of getting nothing and hitting Coppers. In these games it can be very good with Gardens for example. It can be a nice counter against a Ill-Gotten-Gains rush dealing out curses with it, but it is still swingy and still a bad card. You don't want it early and in the later game it's almost never worth a buy.
#51 Coppersmith (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 12.6% ▲3.4pp / Median: 9.6% ▲2.5pp / Standard Deviation: 11.0% ▼2.3pp
Highest Value(s): 71.4% (1x), 36.5% (1x), 32.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.8% (5x), 0% (1x)

We're making now a big jump of nearly 10pp what shows that the last two cards were obvious. Coppersmith got more points than last time, but is still third last. It has the fifth lowest deviation, but one big outlier.

Yes, Coppersmith is very hard to rank, because it's either clearly the worst card on the board or it's very dominating. As a opener you may get to $6 or even $8, but you also can draw only one Copper, so it's very swingy as a opener and gets worse later. On the other hand King's Court + Coppersmith can become brutal and it has some nice synergy with Apothecary, Counting House and Tactician. The cases where it shines may occur more rarely than with any other card, but then it's a must-buy.
#50 Spy (Base) Weighted Average: 12.9% ▼3.2pp / Median: 11.5% ▼2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 12.4% ▼3.8pp
Highest Value(s): 65.4% (1x), 42.3% (1x), 38.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 1.9% (3x), 0% (2x)

Spy is one rank worse than last year. It has two last ranks and one outlier with an above average vote. It lost also consensus.

An attack that is a cantrip, that seems nice at the first look. But Spy is an attack with a pretty bad attack and little benefit. It's very swingy as you can discard your victory card (or even your Tunnel) and discard the only Witch of your opponent, but you can hit a victory card of your opponent too that you put back. That's no change for your opponent and he even may use that additional info for the next turn. You can add a Spy in your drawing engine if you have a buy and money left and don't want more Silver, but is really rarely worth a buy. It's a cantrip that doesn't hurt your engine and can really shine in an engine with Jester (or any other engine that takes profit from knowing the top card of the opponent's deck), but the benefit it gives you is marginal, similar to Scout. And regarding the benefit of knowing your own top card, you rather have a Cartographer for that.
#49 Talisman (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 13.0% ▼1.3pp / Median: 11.5% ▼2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 12.5% ▼1.4pp
Highest Value(s): 61.5% (1x), 53.8% (1x), 51.9% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 1.9% (1x), 0% (2x)

Talisman switched places with Spy, but it was close. So, it's one rank higher, but still it lost points. It has even 3 votes above average, but also 2 last ranks.

There are very few cards for $4, you want in masses. Silk Road and Gardens may be a exception, but Talisman doesn't work with victory cards. So there are even less cards you want for free with Talisman. Fool's Gold, Caravan and in some cases Throne Room, Conspirator and Tournament came to my mind being the only cards which makes Talisman a good buy, especially as a opener. You can build a Village + Smithy/Envoy engine quicker too, but this is rarely worth a Talisman buy since you need money too. But it shines especially with cost reducers like Quarry, Bridge and especially Highway. Play Highway, play Talisman, buy Highway, get one for free, that's nice. Talisman is also nice for a quick 3-pile ending. This works well with Bishop for example: get many Talismans and then Bishops, trash Talismans for 3VP and try to three-pile. But Talisman also can hurt very badly since the free extra card is not optional, so only buy Talisman if you really want cheap card in masses. And don't forget: if you're buying more expensive cards you've spent $4 for a Copper.
#48 Treasure Map (Seaside) Weighted Average: 15.4% ▼2.8pp / Median: 13.5% ▼3.2pp / Standard Deviation: 15.2% ▲0.4pp
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 53.8% (1x), 46.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.8% (2x), 0% (1x)

Treasure Map is also on the same rank as last year, ignoring Dark Ages. It has one really big outlier on the second rank, but also one last rank vote. In the unweighted ranking, it would be one rank higher.

Treasure Map's power is undeniable. An early enabling can already decide a game. But you can hardly call it strategy going for Treasure Map. You really need enablers for that, like Warehouse, Chapel, Tactician or the Watchtower/Talisman combo. If you go for Treasure Map without such enablers, you totally rely on your luck. And losing against a totally luck-based enabling can really be frustrating. Of course it's strong, but it's hard to make it work, what makes it weak in general.
#47 Navigator (Seaside) Weighted Average: 17.1% ▼1.5pp / Median: 15.4% ▼1.3pp / Standard Deviation: 12.3% ▼0.9pp
Highest Value(s): 67.3% (1x), 51.9% (1x), 38.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 1.9% (2x), 0% (2x)

Navigator lost a rank, but is only slightly worse than last time. It was voted two times last and two times above average. In the unweighted ranking it would be below Treasure Map.

Scout is at least non-terminal. Top-decking the next 5 cards in a specific order is only nice if you have still an action left to draw a few of them. Because if you don't do that, you draw all 5 cards no matter in what order you put them back. The discarding option is nice to minimize shuffle luck and to get a half Chancellor effect, but still it is terminal and most of the time there are better terminal cards on the board. At least it gives you $2. The best use still may be to enable Tunnel's reaction.
#46 Rats (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 18.7% / Median: 17.3% / Standard Deviation: 18.9%
Highest Value(s): 78.8% (1x), 69.2% (1x), 59.6% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 1.9% (3x), 0% (1x)

This is the first Dark Ages card and therefore it has still a high deviation. It was 4 times voted above average and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Rats is DXV's favourite card. It can replace bad cards with... bad cards. So why do you want them? If there are trash for benefit cards, Rats trash the Copper, Estates and Curses while the TfB cards can trash the Rats . But you really have to evaluate if it isn't still better ignoring the Rats and go straight for the Trash-for-Benefit card. But this is still the trap card for Beginners. Just don't play a Rats if you don't want to trash anything!! Rats is also good with cards than benefit from having many action cards, like Scrying Pool, Vineyard and Death Cart.
#45 Bureaucrat (Base) Weighted Average: 20.3% ▼1.7pp / Median: 19.2% ▼2.2pp / Standard Deviation: 12.9% ▲1.9pp
Highest Value(s): 66.7% (1x), 51.9% (1x), 50.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 5.8% (5x), 4.8% (1x), 1.9% (1x)

Bureaucrat is 2 ranks worse than last time, but lost not that much points. It's the first card that wasn't voted last. In the unweighted ranking, it's below Rats.

The attack of Bureaucrat is weak. Your opponent loses one card that he don't need anyway for him getting another 4 card hand in the next turn. And he might even be able to counter that easily by playing Farming Village for example. The attack gets better in multiplayer games, especially if there are dual-type victory cards like Nobles or Harem on the board. The benefit on the other side still isn't good either. Top-decked silvers are nice, especially in the beginning and you can get to $8 with 4 silvers too, but it's not easy. So it seems Bureaucrat is nice where you don't want to get to $8 and Silver is a good card, like in Duke / Silk Road / Feodum and especially Gardens games, but then Bureaucrat is a good counter too. And you can play your Bureaucrat less frequently if your deck is already flooded with silvers. Bureaucrat + Big Money is not bad. On the other side as it doesn't seem to have synergies with other cards.
#44 Pirate Ship (Seaside) Weighted Average: 20.8% ▲2.4pp / Median: 16.7% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3% ▼2.4pp
Highest Value(s): 90.4% (1x), 76.2% (1x), 75.0% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.8% (3x)

Pirate Ship is two ranks higher than last year and has a pretty high deviation with some really high votes in the upper fourth.

There's the next attack that trashes treasures. Again, hitting Coppers even helps your opponent. And when there are cards with virtual coin, you can defend pretty well. The high ranks may result from players mainly playing 3 or 4-player games where Pirate Ships can be devastating because if 3 players go for it in a 4-player game you really are forced to get those too. In 2-player games it's too slow most of the times. And, with Pirate Ship you really want to buy as many as you can, so you can play them multiple times, and with Throne Room or King's Court and +Buy this card is really great.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 06:13:35 pm by Qvist »
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2396
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4068
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2013, 04:47:48 pm »
+4

The Best $4 Cards - Part 2/5

Video Link:

#43 Feast (Base) Weighted Average: 22.1% ▲0.7pp / Median: 19.0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7% ▼3.4pp
Highest Value(s): 88.1% (1x), 65.4% (2x), 64.3% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 5.8% (2x), 3.8% (2x)

Feast is one rank higher than last time. With three votes above average and one of them a big outlier, its deviation is much worse than last time. In the unweighted ranking, it would be one rank lower, below Pirate Ship.

Feast basically does nothing but being a one-shot balancing bad shuffle luck, especially at the start. If you really want a specific $5 card and have a 4/3 opening you can open with Feast and can be sure to get that $5 card soon. That's especially good if you don't want any Silvers in the first place. It also can be used with Throne Room and King's Court to gain multiple $5 cards. It's only other use is gaining Duchies, especially in Duke games.
#42 Nomad Camp (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 23.6% ▲0.7pp / Median: 21.2% ▼0.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.6% ▼5.5pp
Highest Value(s): 96.2% (1x), 61.5% (1x), 53.8% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 5.8% (2x), 3.8% (1x)

Nomad Camp is on the same rank as last time and was voted 5 times above average. It was even voted on #3 once. But it lost a lot of consensus.

Woodcutter was the third worst $3 card. Here we have a Woodcutter with a on-buy top-deck ability. Is it worth costing $1 more? And how can it be that it ranks higher than Woodcutter? IMO there are only 2-3 reasons for that. You have a high chance to get a $5 card on turn 2 even with a 4/3 opening (so Witch / Nomad Camp is on #104 ▼18 and Nomad Camp / Trading Post at #113 ▼22 of the best openings). Similar to that it is nice you need the +Buy either way and need multiple cheap cards as fast you can. But the only opening which is strong without $5s is IMO Nomad Camp / Fool's Gold / Fool's Gold on #210 ▲129 of the best openings. The last reason is if you're really unlucky in the late game and only get $4 and want to maximize the chances to hit $8 in the next turn. Beside of that it's only an expensive Woodcutter.
#41 Armory (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 25.5% / Median: 25.0% / Standard Deviation: 10.0%
Highest Value(s): 51.9% (1x), 42.3% (1x), 40.4% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 9.6% (2x), 5.8% (1x)

Armory is the second Dark Ages card in this list. It has a way lower deviation than all other Dark Ages cards in this list and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Armory is the new Workshop/Ironworks variant. It's the weakest one for Gardens rushes, but it's way better in setting up an engine with cheap engine cards than Workshop. It's still hurts that it is terminal which means that Ironworks is mostly preferred. But if there aren't any strong terminals then Armory can even be better. It can also be used to put a Potion on top of your deck which can be great in Vineyard games.
#40 Noble Brigand (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 26.1% ▼4.4pp / Median: 19.2% ▼4.6pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7% ▼1.5pp
Highest Value(s): 73.1% (1x), 69.2% (2x), 65.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 7.7% (3x), 3.8% (1x)

Noble Brigand is one rank lower than last year with a notable drop in points. In the unweighted ranking it would even one more rank lower. It was voted 6 times above average.

Noble Brigand is the better Thief on many boards. It hasn't the disadvantage of trashing the opponents Coppers, making it a better opener. It even attacks on-buy. It deals out Coppers too, which is nice playing against no-treasure decks. And it gives $1 too, so you have at least an immediate benefit. But it's worse in Colony games as it cannot steal Platinum, it cannot steal Ill-Gotten-Gains like Thief and cannot steal other Kingdom treasure cards. And most important: it's still too slow and doesn't hurt enough if you can't play one nearly each turn. But Noble Brigand + Big Money is pretty decent on weak boards and a good counter to many strategies.
#39 Walled Village (Promo) Weighted Average: 27.9% ▼2.3pp / Median: 26.0% ▼2.6pp / Standard Deviation: 13.1% ▲1.4pp
Highest Value(s): 55.8% (1x), 53.8% (1x), 46.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 1.9% (1x), 0% (2x)

Walled Village is one rank higher because it changed places with Noble Brigand, but it still lost points. It is the best ranked card that was voted last, and it was voted last even twice.

It is the worst of the now six $4 villages. Why? Its only ability is top deck it if you weren't able to use both actions. So this is nice if you have only 2-3 terminal actions and really want to play them each time without taking the risk of colliding. That's especially useful with Torturer and Ambassador.
#38 Remodel (Base) Weighted Average: 38.0% ▲2.7pp / Median: 36.5% ▲3.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.1% ▼0.8pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 73.1% (1x), 69.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.2% (2x), 19.2% (1x), 15.4% (1x)

We're making now a huge jump of around 10pp. It's on the same rank as last year, but has a better rating. It's the first card with no voted below 10% and it has even one first rank. It was voted 11 times above average and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Remodel introduced us to the cards that trash for a better card. As an opener it has big problems trashing the Coppers, because you need either good $2 cards on the board you want in masses like Fool's Gold (Remodel / Fool's Gold is on #176 ▼8 of the best openings) or Lighthouse or you need to remodel in 2 steps (Estate to Silver or another $3-$4 card) which is not really a good idea. But Remodel is good in the later game. Just remodel your money in the respective victory card.
#37 Ironworks (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 40.4% ▼5.2pp / Median: 36.5% ▼6.4pp / Standard Deviation: 16.1% ▲2.3pp
Highest Value(s): 71.4% (1x), 71.2% (1x), 69.2% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 14.3% (1x), 13.5% (1x), 11.5% (1x)

Ironworks is on the same rank as last year too, but has a big drop in rating of over 5pp. On the other side the agreement is higher and it has even 14 votes above average. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank lower.

Ironworks is the superior Workshop which was pretty low on the $3 list and is better than Armory. Does it deserve a higher rating? The biggest bonus for getting a lot of wanted action cards like Caravan is: Ironworks is non-terminal. So you can get Ironworks with Ironworks and then quickly get Caravans or other $4 cards. Being an Intrigue card it also combos nice with dual-type cards, so getting Great Halls or Islands makes Ironworks a cantrip. And it also works better in Gardens or Silk Road games for getting an additional card and increasing the probability getting to $4. But it lacks the same problem as Workshop and Armory: How many $4 cards do you want? So many times Ironworks is skippable.
#36 Trader (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 44.5% ▼3.7pp / Median: 42.3% ▼5.3pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5% ▲0.2pp
Highest Value(s): 90.5% (1x), 90.4% (1x), 76.9% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.2% (3x), 19.2% (1x)

Trader has not many really bad votes. It was voted only once below 20%. It has also 2 really high votes around 90%. Still it's one rank worse than last year with a drop of nearly 4pp. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking, so it's overrated by newer players.

Trader is - like all Reaction cards - very situational. It's Silver gaining defense is mostly stronger than Watchtower's trashing, so you have to think twice if you really want to play that Curse-giving attack or another card that deals out junk and give your opponent a free Silver, especially with Mountebank on the board for 2 Silvers. Trader is a good opener in non-Colony Big Money games too, so you can trash Estates for 2 Silvers. But it's a real powerhouse with Feodum now as it can trash Feoda for 7 Silvers or eventually trashing a Silver to 3 Silvers, easily emptying the Silver pile and give a lot of points. It's also good if you have some extra buys, for example with Squire, to get some extra Silvers. But in many other boards Trader is simply a no-go.
#35 Quarry (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 44.6% ▼4.0pp / Median: 40.4% ▼4.8pp / Standard Deviation: 19.2% ▼0.8pp
Highest Value(s): 88.5% (1x), 84.6% (1x), 83.3% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 17.3% (2x), 13.5% (1x)

Quarry has only a 0.1pp lead over Trader and would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It has also 18 votes above average.

Quarry is very situational too. For action cards, this is basically a Gold you can pick up in the opening turns. So if you want many action cards and have additional buys too, Quarry is a must buy, especially with Goons or Grand Market. It can also be very good to get an early Forge or King's Court. But in the later game when you picking up victory cards, you wish this weren't only a Copper. Quarry / Ambassador is the #69 ▲11 best opening, both good cards for building an engine.
#34 Feodum (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 45.5% / Median: 42.3% / Standard Deviation: 24.6%
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 88.5% (1x), 82.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 8.0% (1x), 5.8% (2x)

Feodum is the only Kingdom Victory card from Dark Ages. It is the card with the second highest deviation in this list. It would be one rank lower in the unweighter ranking.

Victory cards are hard to rank, especially when they are new. We'll see how its rank will change in the future. While Gardens rushes want to deplete 3 piles as fast as possible and Silk Road strategies are often rushes too, Feodum games have problems to deplete 3 piles because you can't deplete the Silver pile as easy. That doesn't mean it's weak. Silver gainers like Squire, Bureaucrat, Explorer, Jack of All Trades all work well, but also the typical gainers like Ironworks & Workshop. Your goal is to get at least 2 Silvers or Silver/Feodum a turn. But Trader can easily get 3 Silvers a turn and even trash a Feodum for 7 Silvers and easily deplete the Silver pile. Talisman works also very well as a rush as you can deplete the Talisman pile, the Silver pile and then the Feoda. But often this isn't a rush, but this isn't bas because with that many Silvers you can easily buy Duchies or even Provinces and play a mixed Rush/BM strategy. Jack of All Trades also let you trash a Feodum to boost the other Feoda if you want to. You want to do this late in the game if your Feoda are each worth at least one more as the number of Feoda you have in your deck or early to boost your economy. Regarding trashing: Feodum/Chapel is a nice opening just to trash everything down and still have a decent economy of 3 Silvers or if you have a Watchtower in hand and $3-$5. Then you can basically buy 3 Silvers instead of just one.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 03:03:57 pm by Qvist »
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2396
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4068
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2013, 04:48:12 pm »
+6

The Best $4 Cards - Part 3/5

Video Link:

#33 Scavenger (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 48.3% / Median: 51.9% / Standard Deviation: 20.3%
Highest Value(s): 88.5% (1x), 84.6% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 17.3% (1x), 11.5% (1x), 9.6% (1x)

Scavenger is the next Dark Ages card in this list. Of course it has high deviation. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list.

Chancellor is the worst $3 card and Scavenger is similar, but so much higher ranked. Does its bonus really justify it? In short, yes. It's not the best Big Money card, but even a Big Money - like approach is not that bad in my limited experience with this card; putting back a Gold or even a Platinum is great. But also in engines with cheap villages like Hamlet of Fishing Village where you often have spare Actions, you can - similar to Scheme - setup your next turn or even mid-turn top-deck the card you need what is very strong - and of course you cycle faster. There are still often more powerful terminals, but Scavenger can be pretty effective, don't underestimate it. And it combos even better with Stash. 2 Scavengers and 4 Stashes guarantee you a Province each turn.
#32 Cutpurse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 49.4% ▼1.3pp / Median: 50.0% ▲2.4pp / Standard Deviation: 17.7% ▼0.4pp
Highest Value(s): 84.6% (1x), 83.3% (1x), 82.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.2% (1x), 9.5% (1x), 7.7% (1x)

Cutpurse lost not many points, it's Median is even higher, but it still lost 3 ranks. It got 4 votes above 80%. It would be below Scavenger in the unweighted ranking.

Cutpurse is a pretty good opener. It's a terminal Silver that can even hit harder than Militia. In the beginning where every coin is important to get to $5, Cutpurse can be really annoying. And it is even worse in games with more than 2 players where you can lose multiple Coppers in one turn. Yes, later it gets worse and worse and is nothing but a terminal Silver where you can see your opponents hand.
#31 Island (Seaside) Weighted Average: 49.9% ▲1.0pp / Median: 48.1% ▲0.5pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1% ▼2.0pp]
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 92.3% (1x), 85.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 25.0% (3x), 23.1% (1x), 19.2% (1x)

Island has not really a bad vote and has even some really high votes - it was voted even on the second rank. It's on the same rank as last year with a slightly better point average.

Island does pseudo-trashing with the addition of giving additional points. So you can use it for pseudo-trashing the Estates without losing the points and later in the game you can pick it up and take your Provinces out of your deck. It can really be great with Silk Road on the board. It is rarely a game-changer, but can be a nice addition to some decks to keep them clean. And even in cursing games with no trashers, you can take Curses out of your deck for a total net of +1 point. The problem is that you don't build up your economy if you open with it and if there important cards for $5 or $6 you often have to skip Island. Getting Islands with Ironworks can also be very nice because then the Ironworks is a cantrip that gives you 2VP.
#30 Farming Village (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 50.8% ▼1.7pp / Median: 50.0% ▼2.4pp / Standard Deviation: 15.1% =0
Highest Value(s): 80.8% (1x), 78.6% (1x), 75.0% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 28.6% (1x), 25.0% (1x), 2.4% (1x)

Farming Village is the second out 6 villages in this list. It lost 2 ranks and has a pretty low deviation. It has a really big outlier in the low ranks, but beside of that only votes above 25%.

The additional ability of this village is always useful and a good counter in cursing games and against top-decking attacks like Rabble. And later in the game where you are heavily greening its additional ability is very useful too. You may even pick it up if you don't necessarily need the actions and just want to have its filter ability. But in games without cursers or even good trashing, it's in the beginning often only an expensive "normal" village. Farming Village / Masquerade is the #90 and Farming Village / Ambassador is the #111 ▼20 best opening.
#29 Fortress (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 52.2% / Median: 53.8% / Standard Deviation: 18.5%
Highest Value(s): 90.4% (1x), 82.7% (1x), 80.8% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 25.0% (2x), 21.2% (1x), 17.3% (1x)

Fortress is the first card of 7 card that are very close together. So, they can be basically all be switched in ranks. It's also the second village in a row and the third village in this list. In the unweighted ranking it would be 2 ranks higher.

This is the new Dark Ages village variant with an on-trash ability that does crazy stuff. The are many trashers that could trigger its ability, but you rather use them to trash junk. But you can use trash-for-benefit cards for it. The best one might be Bishop. 4 Fortesses and 4 Bishops guarantee you 12VP per turn. Procession/Fortress is also crazy as it let you basically draw 3 cards, gives you 5 Actions and a free $5 Action card. Fortress is also a very good defense against trashing attacks like Knights or Swindler and also a decent defense against Governor for free Duchies. So, when there are trashing attacks or trash-for-benefit cards, it really shines, but otherwise it's only an expensive vanilla village.
#28 Wandering Minstrel (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 52.3% / Median: 50.0% / Standard Deviation: 18.4%
Highest Value(s): 86.5% (1x), 84.0% (1x), 82.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 23.1% (1x), 17.3% (2x)

A gap of 0.1pp and there is the third village in a row, the second from Dark Ages and the fourth one in this list. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank lower.

This new village variant is very tricky and I admit that I don't understand it fully yet. Unlike a vanilla village it can even hurt in your deck, especially in Looter games where you will discard your Silvers to put Ruins on top of your deck. But if your building an engine (I expect you want that as you're buying a village) you can sort of guarantee to draw your terminal and your village together. It's great with Torturer as it skips over curses and helps connecting Minstrels with Torturers. The problem is still that you don't have a choice. You sometimes put back Action cards that you don't need next turn and rather want to discard. So, its filtering is often worse than the filtering of Warehouse, but of course you don't lose handsize and get an additional Action. And Wandering Minstrel really shines in decks/engines with no trashing and Actions providing virtual money and can therefore used to setup Conspirator chains or similar decks. Also Wishing Well combos very well with it.
#27 Baron (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 52.4% ▲2.0pp / Median: 51.9% ▲1.9pp / Standard Deviation: 18.2% ▲0.5pp
Highest Value(s): 96.2% (1x), 94.2% (1x), 88.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 26.9% (1x), 17.3% (1x), 5.8% (1x)

Baron is another 0.1pp ahead. It's one rank better than last time. It got one really high rank and one really low one. In the unweighted ranking it would be two ranks higher.

Baron is very interesting as it gives you a very high probability getting Gold early and even get a very early King's Court or Forge, but is very swingy too. If you cannot draw your Baron with an Estate, this is a dead card in the beginning, because you mostly don't want another Estate (and getting Estate for feeding your Baron is mostly no good idea). But as the game goes on, the probability decreases drawing an Estate with Baron. It has also a nice synergy with Crossroads. In the middle game Baron is most of the time no good card, but later in the game it can you net another point and gives you a +Buy too. If you're going to trash your Estates, don't buy a Baron and if you have a deck that can guarantee an Estate in every hand, like multiple Hunting Parties or engines with big card draw, Baron can very powerful. With Dark Ages in Shelter games Baron is mostly pretty much useless, makes it basically much worse now. So it seems strange that it is now one rank higher.
#26 Moneylender (Base) Weighted Average: 52.5% ▼1.3pp / Median: 51.9% ▼7.6pp / Standard Deviation: 18.0% ▲2.9pp
Highest Value(s): 95.2% (1x), 90.5% (1x), 84.6% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 23.8% (1x), 19.2% (1x), 9.6% (1x)

After that huge drop last time, Moneylender lost even 2 more ranks. And it has also a tiny 0.1pp lead over the previous card. At least the consensus is much higher than last time. And in the unweighted ranking it would be two ranks higher.

Moneylender is another card that falls into the category "Great opener, bad afterwards". It's like a Silver but with the trash ability at the same time. The comparism to Spice Merchant is obvious. Moneylender is a much better opener with the deficit of not being so flexible later in the game. You mostly only want one of it (maybe only on Mountebank boards you would maybe buy a second), but this one can really fasten the game. It's less important as it used to be, but still great for building an engine with high cost cards.
#25 Procession (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 52.6% / Median: 53.8% / Standard Deviation: 23.7%
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 98.1% (1x), 90.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 23.1% (1x), 17.3% (1x), 15.4% (1x)

Procession is the next Dark Ages card in this list and again it has a lead of 0.1pp. This means the last 5 cards are all in a range of 0.4pp. It has the third highest deviation in this list with some really high votes; it was voted even first and second. In the unweighted ranking it would be two ranks higher.

Procession is even harder to rank than Throne Room because it's even more board dependant. You want strong Action cards in the kingdom that are worth playing them twice and strong Action cards in a specific price range so that you can get a bonus out of the trashing. Of course it's best with on-trash benefits. Like said before Procession+Fortress is a real powerhouse and to play it on Cultist or Catacombs on the right moment can be really great.
#24 Mining Village (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 53.0% ▼1.0pp / Median: 53.8% ▼1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.0% ▲1.4pp
Highest Value(s): 78.8% (1x), 76.9% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 23.1% (1x), 21.4% (1x), 17.3% (1x)

Another small lead of 0.4pp here. Mining Village is 2 ranks worse than last year and has a low deviation with no real outliers for a middle ranked card. In the unweighted ranking it would be 4 ranks lower.

Mining Village is a normal Village with a one-shot Silver possibility and the second best village for $4. If you need a Village you can use that one-shot self-trashing option later in the game when you give up your engine and fully commit on going green or have bad luck late in the game and only hit $6 or $7. And even if you doesn't have a engine and are going basically big money, you can buy this in the mid-game when you miss $6 for a Gold and don't want another Silver in your deck, because this still gives you the additional card and the $2 of a Silver. And if you have enough money and no additional buy you can save the one-shot Silver for later. Mining Village / Ambassador is the #109th ▼33 best opening.
#23 Spice Merchant (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 53.1% ▲7.0pp / Median: 51.9% ▲11.4pp / Standard Deviation: 20.1% ▲1.7pp
Highest Value(s): 88.5% (2x), 86.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 15.4% (1x), 13.5% (1x), 3.8% (1x)

Spice Merchant is one of the winners in this list. It's 8 ranks higher than last time and is 7pp higher. And regarding close ranks: It's also 0.1pp above Mining Village. This means that the ranks #23 to #29 are in a range of 0.9pp. In the unweighted ranking it would be 3 ranks lower.

Spice Merchant is a very flexible trasher and the comparism to Moneylender is obvious. It produces less money for the cost of an additional buy. It can really shine if you want a non-terminal trasher for example in combination with Minions (its option +2 cards, +1 action basically restores the hand size) and if there's no other +Buy and you really need one. It's therefore more flexible (not limited to Copper and two options to choose from) but a slower opener as it's harder to get to $5 early on. It may be still useful later on, but it can lead to very hard decisions if you really want to trash that Silver. Spice Merchant / Ambassador is the #22 ▼3 best opening (and the third best Ambassador opening), because you can trash coppers you get from your opponent and still play your Ambassador with a full hand. This is the first time that it is higher than Moneylender in this list.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 02:48:41 pm by Qvist »
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2396
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4068
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2013, 04:48:20 pm »
+4

The Best $4 Cards - Part 4/5

Video Link:


#22 Death Cart (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 58.9% / Median: 55.8% / Standard Deviation: 23.1%
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 96.2% (1x), 88.5% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.2% (1x), 19.2% (1x), 17.3% (1x)

After all the cards close together we're making now a jump of nearly 6pp and there's the third best Dark Ages card in this list. Of course it has still high deviation. It was voted 8 times above 80% and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

A terminal $5 is very powerful and even with the possibility of an one-shot it's often a more powerful version of Feast. When you buy it, you gain 2 Ruins, but often that's no real disadvantage because they are great targets for Death Cart. Death Cart is therefore also a good "defense" against Marauder or Cultist. Death Cart loves +Buy because that helps picking up cheap targets for Death Cart like Vagrant for example and mitigates the effect of overpaying by a lot when you get $5. In engines that draw most of the deck (and has +Buy), it can serve a similar function to Baron, so you don't need (that much) Golds.
#21 Gardens (Base) Weighted Average: 59.2% ▼3.6pp / Median: 59.5% ▼4.8pp / Standard Deviation: 15.5% ▲3.0pp
Highest Value(s): 82.7% (2x), 81.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 30.8% (2x), 19.0% (1x)

Alternative victory cards are really hard to rank, so this time Gardens is 5 ranks lower with a small lead over Death Cart of 0.3pp. The deviation is now way lower as it has no big outliers and has only one vote below 30%. In the unweighted ranking it would be below Death Cart.

Gardens is another card from the base set, introduced us to alternative victory cards. The Gardens rush is still a very good strategy on many boards and there are a lot of supporting cards for it. Gardens is on non-trashing boards easily worth a Duchy and can be worth even more. The Ironworks/Gardens rush is well known and one of the best existing combos. Gardens gets even better in cursing games or other slogs where 3-piling gets faster and is harder to get to $8. But you could even transition out of an engine to Gardens, so Gardens is interesting basically on every board and is only weak in Big Money.
#20 Horse Traders (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 59.3% ▲4.0pp / Median: 61.5% ▲4.4pp / Standard Deviation: 16.5% ▲0.2pp
Highest Value(s): 90.4% (1x), 86.5% (1x), 83.3% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 28.8% (1x), 26.9% (2x)

Horse Traders has a tiny lead over Gardens of 0.1pp and is on the same rank as last year. But it has way more points than last year as it is 4pp better. The deviation is nearly the same and it has only 3 votes below 30%. In the unweighted ranking it would be even 2 ranks higher.

Horse Traders is one of the few Reaction cards that is useful on many boards. Yes, it is still situational, but the situations occur very often. It's geat against discarding attacks, restoring the hand size - especially against Minion for a hand of 6 cards. Especially with weak attacks this card is good, because the benefit from Horse Traders is bigger for the opponent than the benefit for yourself playing a weak attack. But, the action part is very useful too. It's useful in decks full of green cards and curses, so it's a good supporting card for Gardens or Silk Road rushes, or buying Dukes. And it's a good addition to Hunting Party, a good starter for getting $5 early or early Grand Markets and so on... many possibilities. Still, as it is a Reaction card, it's very situational and skippable when there are stronger terminals on the board.
#19 Envoy (Promo) Weighted Average: 60.6% ▼4.5pp / Median: 59.6% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 21.0% ▼5.8pp
Highest Value(s): 92.3% (1x), 90.5% (1x), 90.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 23.1% (1x), 15.4% (1x), 0% (1x)

Envoy is 5 ranks worse than last time, but what's even more striking is it's huge drop in consensus. In the unweighted ranking it would be even one rank lower.

Envoy is maybe THE Big Money card. In a deck full of silver and an Envoy in hand, you're almost guaranteed a Province. In a Envoy Big Money deck you don't necessarily need Gold, as it will get discarded from your opponent either way. Smithy is draws 3 cards, of course this is stronger in BM games for drawing 4 cards. In engine games this is usually worse, as your opponent will discard your key card. But if you have a deck with a density of high quality, Envoy can be a very good addition too as you may draw the discarded card later again if you can draw your whole deck.
#18 Smithy (Base) Weighted Average: 60.8% ▼1.7pp / Median: 59.6% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 15.9% ▼0.3pp
Highest Value(s): 90.4% (1x), 88.5% (1x), 86.5% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 33.3% (1x), 23.1% (1x), 19.2% (1x)

Smithy lost a little bit of points too and one rank; it's this time above Envoy, but it was close only a difference of 0.2pp. It was voted below 40% only 5 times. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank lower.

This is maybe the simplest card when you're learning Dominion. It has so few text, but is yet very powerful. It introduced us to the card drawing mechanism, the key card for Big Money and engines. In the base set Double-Smithy was still good, but the value dropped down. BM-Smithy is still the way to go on many boards, and if you need a card drawer for a good working engine, Smithy is still a good pick.
#17 Worker's Village (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 62.3% ▲1.5pp / Median: 59.6% ▲0.1pp / Standard Deviation: 16.8% ▼2.2pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 98.1% (1x), 90.4% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 35.7% (1x), 34.6% (1x), 26.2% (1x)

Worker's Village is one rank higher than last time as has some really high votes; it was even voted first and second. Also it has only 3 votes below 40%. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank higher.

If you build an engine, you need villages, draw, money and buys. Fishing Village is good because it is reliable and gives you money. Worker's Village gives you the additional buy - you have it included in your village so you don't need a separate card for that. So this is the best out of the 6 villages because most of the times when this is available an engine is possible. It's also great picking up additional Peddlers in masses and with Goons where you need as many buys as you can get. But when you just need a simple village and don't plan to get more than $8 or $11 respectively, other villages for $4 are probably better. Worker's Village / Ambassador is the #78 best opening.
#16 Silk Road (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 62.8%
 ▼1.1pp / Median: 61.9% ▼2.4pp / Standard Deviation: 20.5% ▲1.6pp
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 96.2% (1x), 90.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 25.0% (1x), 23.1% (1x), 9.5% (1x)

Silk Road is again better than Gardens, but lost one rank too and a little bit of points. It's previously high deviation is now better, but still high. It has a lead over Worker's Village of only 0.5pp and in the unweighted ranking it would be below it.

Silk Road plays often similarly to Gardens. You can rush them, with support of Workshop/Ironworks and/or additional buys for double Estates in the end game. Baron and Crossroads are great supporting cards, but Silk Road can work in slogs too. While it's mostly easier to make Gardens worth 3VP than Silk Roads, it's much easier to get Silk Roads to 5VP than Gardens, so it scales much better. Silk Road is especially great with a board with dual-type victory cards like Island, Nobles, Great Halls or Harem. With Dark Ages Silk Road loses a bit of power now because only one of the Shelters is a Victory card.
#15 Throne Room (Base) Weighted Average: 64.7% ▲11.0pp / Median: 65.4% ▲15.4pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5% ▲0.8pp
Highest Value(s): 97.6% (1x), 96.2% (1x), 94.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 36.5% (1x), 23.1% (1x), 13.5% (1x)

Throne Room is probably the winner of this year in this list. It's 8 ranks and 11pp better than last year and even the agreement is slightly higher. It was voted 4 times above 90% and only 5 times below 40%.

As already mentioned in the Procession summary Throne Room for itself basically does nothing and is highly dependant on the other cards on the board, so it's hard to rank. It can be so strong, especially with strong attacks and with terminal card drawers too. But nothing is more depressing than drawing Throne Room with no other action card. So you need a high action density and hope to draw it with that card you really want to double. You can also use it as a pseudo-village if there's no-one available and really need one, if you double a cantrip. Throne Room can really be a game-changer, especially if you have the luck and draw it with the right cards, but it can also be a trap. I don't know why it's rated that much higher, but after Hinterlands, Dark Ages again made the engine stronger.
#14 Conspirator (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 64.8% ▲6.0pp / Median: 69.0% ▲11.9pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9% ▼3.0pp
Highest Value(s): 94.2% (1x), 92.9% (1x), 90.4% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.2% (1x), 11.5% (1x), 5.8% (1x)

Conspirator is another winner of this list. It's 6pp higher and 5 ranks better than last time. It has a small lead over Throne Room of again 0.1pp. But it also lost consensus.

Conspirator is so strong, but heavily depends on supporting cards that have to be non-terminal. Cheap action cards like Wishing Well, Pearl Diver or Hamlet that you can pick up in masses, especially with additional buys are great with Conspirator. You want thin decks with high action density. With that big support, this is a Grand Market just without the additional buy. In all other cases, you have to skip over Conspirator, because it's just a terminal Silver then.
#13 Ironmonger (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 66.2% / Median: 66.0% / Standard Deviation: 20.9%
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 94.2% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 32.7% (1x), 28.8% (1x), 13.5% (1x)

Ironmonger is the second best Dark Ages card in this list. It has only 4 votes below 40% and has five votes above 90%.

Ironmonger is good when the top card is a Victory card because you can discard it and draw a new card, it this case a better Laboratory. If you reveal a Treasure card it's also good, then you have a Peddler. If you reveal an Action, it's mediocre because then it's a Village. This can be neat when there's no village available, but the question is if you can rely on that, probably only with heavy trashing. So mostly Ironmongers are great as long as you don't have too many because revealing themselves only let you have a lot of Actions. But it's best with dual-type cards like Great Hall, Nobles and Harem. Ironmongers are a great addition to most decks that aren't terminal draw Big Money games.
#12 Salvager (Seaside) Weighted Average: 71.2% ▼0.9pp / Median: 76.9% ▲3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 18.3% ▼3.0pp
Highest Value(s): 90.4% (2x), 88.5% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 25.0% (1x), 17.3% (1x), 15.4% (1x)

After a jump of 5pp, Salvager is now the first Tier 1 card. It lost 2 ranks, but not that many points. It was only voted 6 times below average with many votes between 80% and 90%.

Salvager is one of the best trash-for-benefit cards. It's not that a great starter, but still a good card to pick up early. Later in the game you generally want to trash your best card, so you can trash a Gold for an easy Province, maybe even for a double Province. Then you have a significant lead and can salvage your Province for another one, accelerating the game, so that your opponent can't come back. So Salvager is one of the first cards in this list, that is useful on most boards.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 09:44:35 pm by Qvist »
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2396
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4068
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2013, 04:48:28 pm »
+8

The Best $4 Cards - Part 5/5

Video Link:

#11 Marauder (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 72.1% / Median: 80.8% / Standard Deviation: 25.5%
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 98.1% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 17.3% (2x), 13.5% (1x)

Marauder is the best Dark Ages card. And it's also the card with the highest deviation in this list. It was voted 12 times above 90%, but also has a lot of low votes.

Maruder is the Dark Ages variant of Sea Hag. The attack isn't that bad. Curses are worse than Ruins and of course Curses on top of your deck are really nasty. But Marauder gives you Spoils which are very useful to get to a crucial $5 or even a Gold. So, ignoring Marauder can be devastating, but Sea Hag is still the better attack.
#10 Bridge (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 74.5% ▲8.5pp / Median: 76.9% ▲7.9pp / Standard Deviation: 14.5% ▲1.5pp
Highest Value(s): 94.2% (1x), 92.3% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 46.2% (1x), 45.2% (1x), 19.2% (1x)

Bridge is only 1 rank better than last time, but got a huge boost in points. Even the deviation is low. It was only 4 times below average and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Bridge is a very nice card. If you buy only one card, it's not more than a terminal Silver. If you use both buys, it's a terminal Gold for $4, pretty solid, but still not so exciting. But its power rises the more you can play in one turn. With 2 Bridges and you use all 3 buys, they are worth $8, so $4 per Bridge. Its value increases quadratically. With n Bridges you have nē+2n coins if you use every buy. So if you manage to play 7 Bridges and an additional copper, you can buy all 8 Provinces in one turn. The problem is still how to do that. You need enough actions and/or enough drawing power. You definitely need supporters. With a 5-card hand of 2 King's Courts and 3 Bridges, you can accomplish this easily. But also other cards like Tactician and Native Village are great supporters. If there aren't good supporters for 3-piling or mega-turning, Bridge can be a trap card. But if there are cheap engine components and you have enough Actions available Bridge can still be a very important card.
#9 Bishop (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 74.7% ▼6.5pp / Median: 78.8% ▼4.5pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7% ▼4.1pp
Highest Value(s): 96.2% (1x), 94.2% (1x), 92.9% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 34.6% (1x), 26.9% (1x), 7.7% (1x)

Bishop lost a lot of points and 2 ranks ... and also a lot of consensus. It was voted 6 times below average. It has a small lead of 0.2pp over Bridge, but would be below Bridge in the unweighted ranking.

Bishop is very strong, but the problem is the free trashing your opponent gets. So, it's questionable as an opener and really depends on the board. What makes it strong? A trashed Estate nets you already 1 point more without having it in your deck. You can also buy Duchies and trash them for the same VP or Provinces for one point less, but they aren't in your deck anymore which is great. In other scenarios you can trash a Gold late for additional 4VP. That's especially great if you get the Gold for free through Hoard, Tunnel or Market Square (which Bishop itself can activate). There is also a strategy called "Golden Deck" where you trash down to 4 cards (Bishop and 3 Treasures which give at least $7), buy a Province and trash it in the next turn, buying the next province, etc. what gives you 5 VP per turn guaranteed. With 4 Bishops and 4 Fortresses you get even 12 VP per turn without having to buy Provinces. But if you're building an engine, use the free trashing of your opponents and get the Bishop later in the game. And discarding attacks like Militia really hurt Bishop too. Bishop / Chapel is on #91 ▲37 in the best openings list.
#8 Caravan (Seaside) Weighted Average: 75.5% ▲4.4pp / Median: 78.8% ▲5.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.8% ▼0.6pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 96.2% (1x), 94.2% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 42.3% (1x), 36.5% (1x), 26.9% (1x)

Caravan is 2 ranks higher than last time and also has a way better rating. It was voted first once and got only 5 below average votes.

Caravan is the worse Laboratory, because it has a delayed benefit and can miss the reshuffle and therefore you cannot play it that often. But still a bigger hand size from a nonterminal card is great. Only Big Money decks don't necessarily profit from it, so almost all decks can need a Caravan. Getting all Caravans is still not key to win the game, but if you get them quick (e.g. from Talisman or Ironworks), this can really make a huge difference. So this is almost a must-buy for all good engines. And that a slightly weaker Laboratory costs $4 and therefore easy to pick up makes it a great card. Caravan / Ambassador is the #7 =0 the second best Ambassador opening opening and Caravan / Masquerade on #23 ▲15 the second Masquerade opening. Only the respective Tournament openings are better.
#7 Militia (Base) Weighted Average: 76.2% ▲1.4pp / Median: 80.8% ▲2.2pp / Standard Deviation: 14.5% ▲0.9pp
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 97.6% (1x), 95.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 42.9% (1x), 42.3% (1x), 30.8% (1x)

Militia is one rank better than last year and has also a slightly better rating. It was voted only 3 times below average and 8 times above 90%.

Militia is another card from the base set and it's the best in this list. Discarding attacks are really annoying and can really hurt some decks. It's great against decks with trashers as the opponent mostly has to choose between buying a good card and discarding the trasher or trash 1-2 cards and buy nothing. Militia is also a good opener as it is also a terminal silver and stops your opponent getting to $5 or $6 early. And if you can play it each turn, this is great. So Militia / Chapel is the #78 ▼11 best opening. You can combo this with Council Room / Governor and your opponent doesn't get the benefit of the additional card, or play Militia and Masquerade afterwards what could really hurt. But there situations when Militia isn't that strong, especially if there are cursers on the board, or if there are effective counters like Watchtower, Horse Traders, Library, Jack of All Trades or Menagerie on the board.
#6 Monument (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 82.3% ▲0.1pp / Median: 85.7% =0 / Standard Deviation: 16.6% ▼4.5pp
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 96.2% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 44.2% (2x), 1.9% (1x)

We're making a bigger jump of 6.1pp and there is Monument. It's on the same rank and has nearly the same points as last time. It has a really big outlier on second last, 4 votes below average and 14 votes above 90%.

You want to pick up Monument early in the game, because the more you play it, the more it's worth it. It's good in quick games without good additional buys, where it can help you to force your opponent to a 5/3 Province split to win the game. And it's good in decks where you can guarantee to play your Monument regularly. Monument / Chapel is the #57 ▼19 best opening. So one Monument is a great addition to a Hunting Party deck. Monument is also the only infinite VP generating card in the game. With a 5 card hand of 2 King's Courts and 3 Monuments you are guaranteed 9 VP per turn. But as it is terminal and when there are very good attacks on the board, then you have to ignore it.
#5 Young Witch (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 90.1% ▲1.4pp / Median: 92.3% ▲1.8pp / Standard Deviation: 12.0% ▲1.3pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 69.2% (1x), 59.5% (1x), 25.0% (1x)

And we're making the next big jump of 7.8pp to Young Witch. It's also on the same rank with a slightly better rating. It was voted first 3 times and it has only one bigger outlier which was the only vote below average.

Young Witch is a curser which generally is very strong and only costs $4, so this is huge! But you are guaranteed that there's a Moat-like bane card in the setup. If you would have bought this card either way, YW is mostly not worth it and skippable, especially if the bane is Lighthouse (it defends now in hand and in play) or Scheme (just return it again and again). But with a weak bane like Embargo YW is very strong as a curser and has still the draw-and-discard filter advantage. This leads to one of the most-fun synergies: Young Witch and Tunnel. Giving out curses and getting Gold at the same time is great. Young Witch / Tunnel is #30 ▲2 on the opening list.
#4 Tournament (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 90.5% ▼0.3pp / Median: 92.3% ▼0.6pp / Standard Deviation: 12.6% ▼0.2pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (7x) / Lowest Value(s): 51.9% (2x), 44.2% (1x)

Tournament is the second card from Cornucopia in a row and has a slight lead over Young Witch of 0.4pp. It loses one rank in comparism to last year, but it got first 7 times.

Many hate Treasure Map for being so luck-based. Tournament is also very luck-based as you have to pair a Province and a Tournament. If you manage to do that you get one of 5 prices that are so strong that Donald X. didn't want to realize these ideas as "normal" cards. So, Tournament is in fact a very good card. The prizes will be part of a different ranking, but how do you manage to get a Tournament and Province in hand? It's the same as with Treasure Map. Either trash down to few cards (e.g. Chapel), get a big hand size (e.g. Tactician), or cycle through your deck with sifters (e.g. Warehouse). Also there is the possibility to spam Tournaments which are at least nonterminal and good cards for themselves - at least until your opponent gets Provinces. It's not surprising that Tournament has 3 spots in the Top 10 openings with Ambassador (#2 =0), Chapel (#6 =0) and Masquerade (#7 ▲3)
#3 Remake (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 91.0% ▲1.1pp / Median: 92.9% =0 / Standard Deviation: 11.7% ▲2.6pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 61.9% (1x), 61.5% (1x), 42.3% (1x)

Another small lead of 0.5pp and the third card from Cornucopia in a row. Remake is one rank better than last year. It was voted first three times and also got only one vote below average.

If you compare Remake to Chapel, it can only trash 2 cards at a time but at the same time let you get 3 Silvers in your deck. And if there are good $2 cards on the board, you can buy a good card for the last two Copper in your hand too. Remake is maybe after Chapel the fastest opening trasher in the game. You can get high quality decks really fast. Later it gets nearly as useless as Chapel, but even sometimes you could do cool tricks later and also at that time this doesn't bother you too much. With Shelters and Poor House the interaction changes a little bit and makes it a little bit weaker, but it's still a must buy on many boards. Remake / Menagerie is the best opening on #193 ▼44.
#2 Jack of all Trades (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 92.3% ▼0.2pp / Median: 94.2% ▼1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 12.4% ▼3.3pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (12x) / Lowest Value(s): 64.3% (2x), 48.1% (1x), 40.4% (1x)

Jack of All Trades is on the same rank and has nearly the same ranking. It was voted first 12 times, but has still some low rankings. That's why the deviation is much lower than last time.

Nobody saw that coming when Hinterlands came out. JoaT seems so weak, but it isn't. It seems he does nothing good, he's slowing in trashing, draws few cards and let you get a Silver and has a Spy effect. But it is so strong because it's a very good counter against nearly all attacks. Just buy 2 JoaT and you can skip the cursing attack while you're going for Big Money. Yes, it's boring, but effective. It's weaker in Colony games because of the Silver and there are still situations where a thin deck with an obvious engine or a rush is stronger, but if you feel unsure, JoaT is always a good buy, if you stick to it. It combos bad with most cards. But cards that decrease hand size like Warehouse, Fishing Village, Oasis etc. are neat. Fishing Village / Jack of All Trades and Warehouse / Jack of All Trades are on #81 and #82 respectively.
#1 Sea Hag (Seaside) Weighted Average: 97.5% ▲0.9pp / Median: 98.1% ▼1.9pp / Standard Deviation: 7.6% ▲1.1pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (25x) / Lowest Value(s): 85.7% (1x), 67.3% (1x), 55.8% (1x)

Sea Hag is still the #1 and it's even around 1pp better. There is no doubt about it's rank. 25 players voted it first and only 2 players voted it below 85%. It has therefore the third least deviation in this list.

Sea Hag is the next $4 curser. It has a big first-player advantage as you may discard your opponents Sea Hag in turn 3 and because the curse goes on top of the deck, this hurts your opponent even more than all other cursers in the game. At least if he hasn't any good counter, like trashing from top of the deck, like Lookout does. Sea Hag / Lookout is also the #58 ▼9 best opening and the second best Sea Hag opening overall. The biggest problem of Sea Hag is: it hurts your oppenent more, but it doesn't give you any benefit (like most of the other attacks do). So every Sea Hag is later a dead Sea Hag if the Curse pile is empty (and is basically a Curse for itself too). And don't forget to build up your economy as Sea Hag doesn't help you now to accomplish this. That may be the reason that Sea Hag / Fool's Gold is the best Sea Hag opening on #14 because you get a lot of $2-$3 hands for more Fool's Gold and with at least 2 Fool's Gold it's even better as Silver.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 06:13:17 pm by Qvist »
Logged

Schneau

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1170
  • Shuffle iT Username: Schneau
  • Respect: +1447
    • View Profile
    • Rainwave
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2013, 04:52:50 pm »
+9

Yay! Scout got first!
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7896
  • Respect: +8716
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2013, 04:53:42 pm »
+8

Sounds like you're having reservations....
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2621
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3307
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2013, 04:55:36 pm »
+2

Well, Pirate Ship is extremely overranked. I'm not actually convinced its better than Spy or Coppersmith. I can't remember buying it in months. With all the diversity that Dominion brings, there's always something better than Pirate Ship.

On that same note, I'm finding Coppersmith fitting into engines much better than I used to give it credit for. Spy, too. I am having a hard time imagining that Talisman and Treasure Map are on the whole actually more useful than Coppersmith and Spy.

And I'm not sure Bureaucrat belongs down here at all. Worse than Feast? Unlikely.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

jsh357

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2573
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +4327
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2013, 05:01:08 pm »
0

I voted Rats last (apparently I'm the only one, haha), and while I might be undervaluing it some, I'm still convinced it's a bottom 5 card; it's just new and shiny and wacky and funny.  While I'll admit it has some good combos and is occasionally important, I have just played so many games now where it effectively has no outcome on the game that I can't understand it scoring so highly.  Well, I'd at least put Navigator above Rats anyway.  The ability to dump an entire upcoming turn is usually better than whatever benefit Rats would give you.  Other than that, no real surprises on this first part of the list.
Logged
Join the Dominion community Discord channel! Chat in text and voice; enter dumb tournaments; spy on top players!

https://discord.gg/2rDpJ4N

brokoli

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1112
  • Respect: +773
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 05:09:13 pm »
+1

I'm pretty sure rats deserves a better place.

Otherwise, nothing really new : coppersmith underrated as always, and navigator overrated. I really can't get it, it's probably the only dominion card I don't understand after almost 2 years of playing. I never found the reordering useful and the discard option will never be really good for you. I can understand why navigator is higher than scout and thief, but otherwise...
Logged

Tables

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2758
  • Build more Bridges in the King's Court!
  • Respect: +3252
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2013, 05:09:46 pm »
0

The card I'm surprised not to see down here is Armory. It's like Talisman: How many $4 and under cards do you want, and how many do you really want on top of deck? Workshop and Ironwork's best use is in Gardens/Silk Road games, and Armory is actually worse there. That means it has to really pick up the slack in other cases you want a cheap card gainer - when you want lots of cheap components and the like, and I'm still not convinced it's much better than IW in those cases.

Pirate Ship is too high. In 2 player, it's awful 95% of the time it's on the board. In 3-4 player, it's still really not that good most of the time (unlike Thief, which scales up in crazy ways).

I had Feast (just) down here and Armory as well. Rats I had above, but I've so little experience with it, I'm happy to believe it belongs down here, and I'd have been happy to believe it were a top half card. My personal experience will hopefully eventually tell me what's correct. Navigator I had just above, I dunno, I can't really defend it, it's still a bad card generally.
Logged
...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2096
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2013, 05:09:57 pm »
+2

These are 8 of my bottom 10. The ones where I don't match are:

Cards that don't belong here:

Navigator. I think the description blurb misses the point of Navigator, and a lot of people evaluating the card do as well. It's not great (probably still bottom 15), but it's a very strong opener for games without trashing. If you're not going for an engine, the discard effect is about as good as Cartographer, since you mostly want to skip everything that's not your power card (e.g. Mountebank). Flipping 5 cards gets your newer high-value purchases in play pretty fast. And it's a lot better than Chancellor because you can still use it when your power cards are in the deck and potentially draw closer to them.

Rats. I don't know about this one (haven't played with it in kingdoms with less than 5 DA cards, so maybe it is bad in general), but I have it just outside my bottom 10.

Cards that do:

Feast. Sure I buy Feast. It's not like they hurt you. But they really don't add much. Most of the time, if you had bought a Silver instead, you'd get the same result. The only time it really makes a difference is when Throned, when abusing cost-changers, and with Duke. Overall, it's just a really low-impact card.

Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7065
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9768
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2013, 05:39:02 pm »
0

So, I'm not arguing that Talisman's in the wrong spot, but does anybody besides me ever use it to accumulate Silver? I mean, let's say you're not building an engine and you have two buys and $6 to spend. It's common wisdom that one Gold is usually better than two Silvers, but is it better than four Silvers?
Logged

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2621
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3307
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2013, 05:48:56 pm »
0

So, I'm not arguing that Talisman's in the wrong spot, but does anybody besides me ever use it to accumulate Silver? I mean, let's say you're not building an engine and you have two buys and $6 to spend. It's common wisdom that one Gold is usually better than two Silvers, but is it better than four Silvers?

If I planned on predominantly buying money, I wouldn't want Talisman, though, because I'm probably playing Big Money, and Talisman can't help me with Gold and Victory cards--which are two/thirds of the components I need to purchase (Silver being the other). I can't picture a board where money dominates, but there is no better $4 cost enabler than Talisman.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7065
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9768
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2013, 05:50:51 pm »
0

So, I'm not arguing that Talisman's in the wrong spot, but does anybody besides me ever use it to accumulate Silver? I mean, let's say you're not building an engine and you have two buys and $6 to spend. It's common wisdom that one Gold is usually better than two Silvers, but is it better than four Silvers?

If I planned on predominantly buying money, I wouldn't want Talisman, though, because I'm probably playing Big Money, and Talisman can't help me with Gold and Victory cards--which are two/thirds of the components I need to purchase (Silver being the other). I can't picture a board where money dominates, but there is no better $4 cost enabler than Talisman.

Hmm, perhaps. What about playing a Wharf/BM or Council Room/BM strategy? Might it not be worth buying a Talisman in order to turn an extra Buy and an extra $3 into two Silvers?

EDIT: There is of course the fact that opening with Talisman will slow down your first Wharf/Council Room purchase.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 05:52:02 pm by LastFootnote »
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1853
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2013, 05:52:51 pm »
+2

Workshop and Ironwork's best use is in Gardens/Silk Road games,

.. It is?
Logged

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2621
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3307
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2013, 05:54:38 pm »
+1

Workshop and Ironwork's best use is in Gardens/Silk Road games,

.. It is?

I'd say that's accurate. Ironworks/Gardens is fast enough to beat just about anything, except like King's Court/Bridge or something.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4364
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2013, 06:04:02 pm »
+3

I'd say IW and Gardens's BEST uses are in rushes, but that isn't a large part of their value - usually if you want them, it's to pile up engine components, and armory is at least better than workshop there. So I don't think this is super relevant to armory's rank.

Overall, this is the worst feeling I've had about a chunk of cards I've seen ranked by the community in quite a while. My number one question is: Where is Feast? I have it as fourth-worst and honestly, I'm not totally sure it's better than thief. Pirate ship seems high; coppersmith seems low - it's quite good in a number of engines. Talisman might be a touch low too, though I missed that boat as well. I guess this isn't so bad.
Is rats really that good? I wasn't sure if it was worse than scout, and I don't think it is, but... really?

Ozle

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3625
  • Sorry, this text is personal.
  • Respect: +3349
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2013, 06:16:22 pm »
0

Wow, I thought people rated Bureaucrat a lot higher than me...
Logged
Try the Ozle Google Map Challenge!
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7466.0

Sullying players Enjoyment of Innovation since 2013 Apparently!

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7065
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9768
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2013, 06:19:58 pm »
0

Is rats really that good? I wasn't sure if it was worse than scout, and I don't think it is, but... really?

When you have non-terminal trashing (Forager, Junk Dealer, Upgrade, etc.) and your deck is being junked, Rats is clutch. I'm not comfortable making claims about its general utility.
Logged

D Bo

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 213
  • Respect: +93
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2013, 06:29:38 pm »
0

Man, I'll admit that I don't fully understand Dark Ages cards yet, but I can't understand why Feodum is not in the bottom 5th or so. Maybe it will be one of the next couple, but I'm just not sure about it. I actually think it's a pretty fun card, but I mean, 9 silvers to be worth a duchy? I'm just not sure that it's going to be worth it in most decks. I had it at 47. Other than that, for the most part I had similar cards here, except for I also threw Walled Village wayyyyy low because it is a terrible excuse for a village.
Logged

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2933
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2441
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2013, 06:31:24 pm »
0

Yuck! I have to disagree with most of this list.

Where is Feast. And, man, I don't think B-Crat belongs on the bottom. I find it very good in BM games. It's not Jack of all Trades, but it has its uses. Coppersmith is decent. Pirate Ship is way overrated. I think Rats are actually fine where they are placed. I think with Rats you actually have to have a really good reason to want to purchase them. In cursing games without any other trasher, they are worth going for, I suppose. Anyway, I feel like the community got it wrong this time with the Bottom $4 cards.
Logged

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2933
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2441
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2013, 06:34:00 pm »
0

Man, I'll admit that I don't fully understand Dark Ages cards yet, but I can't understand why Feodum is not in the bottom 5th or so. Maybe it will be one of the next couple, but I'm just not sure about it. I actually think it's a pretty fun card, but I mean, 9 silvers to be worth a duchy? I'm just not sure that it's going to be worth it in most decks. I had it at 47. Other than that, for the most part I had similar cards here, except for I also threw Walled Village wayyyyy low because it is a terrible excuse for a village.

If you can make a strong silver rush happen, then they are often worth going for. You should also be able to snag a Province or two along the way. Hermit/IW/B-Crat/Armory/Workshop/Jack/Explorer/Trader often make it worth considering going for Feodum.
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1853
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2013, 06:43:41 pm »
0

I'd say that's accurate. Ironworks/Gardens is fast enough to beat just about anything, except like King's Court/Bridge or something.

My problem with that statement is that you (or rather, Tables) are understating IW and Workshop's utility in every other kind of deck. "Oh, it's not that useful except in Gardens rushes." WW's objection is very true and engines will love Armory's ability to topdeck newly gained cards. Whether that actually makes a difference is yet to be seen.
Logged

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2621
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3307
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2013, 06:47:42 pm »
0

I'd say that's accurate. Ironworks/Gardens is fast enough to beat just about anything, except like King's Court/Bridge or something.

My problem with that statement is that you (or rather, Tables) are understating IW and Workshop's utility in every other kind of deck. "Oh, it's not that useful except in Gardens rushes." WW's objection is very true and engines will love Armory's ability to topdeck newly gained cards. Whether that actually makes a difference is yet to be seen.

Maybe it's just semantics, but I don't think it was phrased that Ironworks/Workshop is good in Silk Road/Gardens games, but not other games. Like, if you said Bridge works best with King's Court/Native Village. Obviously there are a bunch of other decks that really love Bridge, but those are the first 2 that come to mind. Ironworks is good in a lot of different places, but it's most killer combo is with Gardens/Silk Road in a rush. I think that's fair to say.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12  All
 

Page created in 0.163 seconds with 22 queries.