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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)  (Read 72444 times)

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2013, 06:49:53 pm »
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I think it's a big leap of logic to go from 'their main use is in rushes' to 'The card is pretty worthless elsewhere'. I don't use IW/Workshop an awful lot, but I do sometimes use it for engines and the like. But the only reason Workshop isn't, like, Develop level niche is because it's good in those rush games.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2013, 06:52:55 pm »
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I think it's a big leap of logic to go from 'their main use is in rushes' to 'The card is pretty worthless elsewhere'.
The point is you've already taken too far a leap in your first statement. "Their best use is in rushes." does not imply that "Their main use is in rushes."

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2013, 07:00:15 pm »
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Workshop is barely better than Develop on the whole, anyway.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2013, 07:04:59 pm »
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"Their best use is in rushes" is more accurate than "Their main use is in rushes"... yeah. There are a million other things to use IW/Workshop for (well, Ironworks way way more than Workshop).

Workshop is barely better than Develop on the whole, anyway.

Agreed.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2013, 07:35:05 pm »
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I've actually bought Armory to get engine components in a fair number of games. It's topdecking aspect can really be used to your advantage with other Villages or draw cards. Play a village, play Armory, play another village and draw the card you just gained. But, in VP rush games, Armory is much weaker than even Workshop.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2013, 07:37:04 pm »
+1

Procession an Armory to topdeck a Procession and an Armory, while gaining a $5 action  ::)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2013, 08:19:21 pm »
+1

Thoughts on Bottom 10:

Where is Feast?  It simply isn't that good of a card, and while it adds a "touch" of certainty of hitting 5 turn 3/4, silver/silver already has really good odds of doing this.

Why isn't Rats in the Bottom 3?  It has its uses (namely Apprentice and Upgrade), but man it is sooo much worse than say, Coppersmith.

Why isn't Scout beating Thief?  Scout is hardly a good card (read: it isn't a good card), but it's better than Thief minimum, and I'd venture (ha!) to say it's better than Rats.  It's actually a solid card if you are going to be adding green early or can take advantage of the reordering.  Sure, it's bad in BM or many engines (read: it's downright awful) but not all games are BM or simple engines.  A lot of complex engines can be helped by a Scout.

Why isn't Bureaucrat beating Pirate Ship? (read: Bureaucrat shouldn't be in the bottom 10, and Pirate Ship should be bottom 5 or 6)  Both attacks are unreliable in 2P, but honestly the Bureaucrat attack is actually pretty nasty at times, especially early.  Sure, in 4P games with no virtual money Pirate Ship will be good.  But how many games are 4P with no virtual money?

Lastly, why is Coppersmith on here?  I'll grant it's awful if you are trashing all your coppers, but a lot of boards have engine potential, but without trashing.  Any deck where you can draw your deck and don't trash your opening coppers, it is a terminal +$7!  What decks are these?  Good Tac decks, Wharf decks, any board with KC, Village-Torturer, etc.  I think it should be a minimum of 10 spots higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2013, 08:37:46 pm »
+1

Thief is beating scout because of multiplayer. It gets much better in 4p, whereas scout seems about the same. Maybe it should be even better because of that? Duno.

Rats is very situational. It has no general-purpose use, but it does have a few combos, and I haven't really got a good handle of how frequent they are or how good they are. No idea whether it's ranked right.

Bureaucrat is probably too low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2013, 08:40:35 pm »
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The interesting thing with Rats I think is, a lot of the time, it's a net negative to you to actually play for basically the entire game, which is pretty rare for a card (I can't think of any other that I could say that about). It also rarely seems to ever be ridiculously good. But it's a pretty decent card a reasonable amount of time for your upgraders.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2013, 09:33:29 pm »
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So everyone agrees that feast is too high? Where are the silent people who voted it higher?

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2013, 09:40:12 pm »
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Yeah I put it, like, 12th. Getting to $5 early really is just that important.

[/poeslaw]
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2013, 09:56:33 pm »
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It looks like I had it 39. That was a mistake.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2013, 10:16:06 pm »
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Looks like I had it at 40. Also a mistake

Looking back at my lists, I think I mostly still agree with where I put stuff except for Dark Ages cards and basically this section :P
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2013, 11:31:39 pm »
+1

Thief can actually wreck opponent decks, so it can be really good in some kingdoms.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2013, 11:38:52 pm »
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Why isn't Scout beating Thief?  Scout is hardly a good card (read: it isn't a good card), but it's better than Thief minimum, and I'd venture (ha!) to say it's better than Rats.  It's actually a solid card if you are going to be adding green early or can take advantage of the reordering.  Sure, it's bad in BM or many engines (read: it's downright awful) but not all games are BM or simple engines.  A lot of complex engines can be helped by a Scout.

Ftl covered this, but yeah, three and four player games. Thief becomes something of a mediocre card in three and four player games, especially cursing affairs, where you're actually desperate to hold on to Copper just to scrape up some green. It's similar to Pirate Ship, which is only slightly less unplayable in two player games, and significantly better in three and four player games. (I do think Pirate Ship was considerably overranked on this list.)

If we're only talking two player... even I may be tempted to put Scout ahead of Thief. It would be a hard call. Thief is really useful in the ONE case where your idiot plays Chapel/Big Money. And also with Ill-Gotten Gains. And now and then, other times. Scout, on the other hand, is okay in Scrying Pool decks (though literally any other non-terminal card is better, including Spy), does combo decently with Wishing Well, and can occasionally ease the collapse of a deck that has greened far beyond the usual amount, maybe because of Dukes or Silk Roads. (Contrary to popular belief, Scout doesn't work particularly well with Crossroads, which out-modes it in every conceivable way.)

But I ranked cards giving at least some weight to three and four player games, in which case, I am pleased to see Scout get what it deserves once again.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2013, 11:45:07 pm »
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I have played IRL with Rats a number of times.  It does a good job of getting rid of Coppers/Estates as long as you have another trasher to get rid of the Rats.  (I love Hermit with it.)  And when you trash it, it lets you draw another card, which is a nice bonus.

In 2-player games, I have come to the point where I just totally ignore Thief and Spy if they are on the board.  I don't find them to be worth my money or time.  I admit that Rats is still new and shiny, but as long as there is a way to get rid of the Rats, I would much rather buy it than the other two.  Perhaps Coppersmith should be above it, and possibly Navigator, but in general, I think it is about where it should be for now until everyone has more experience with it.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2013, 12:21:27 am »
+1

If we're only talking two player... even I may be tempted to put Scout ahead of Thief. It would be a hard call. Thief is really useful in the ONE case where your idiot plays Chapel/Big Money. And also with Ill-Gotten Gains. And now and then, other times.

Thief is commonly one strong reason to go engine over money.

To clarify, in this particular matchup (engine vs. money) I think it's stronger than a card like Saboteur, since Saboteur has the drawback of hitting their points and converting it to money with which they can use to buy their points back, whereas Thief can kill the opponent's economy past the point of recovery if he ever starts to green.

On an unrelated note, Spy also tends to be a card that I tend to ignore, but it's definitely a nice addition to engine decks because the attack is moderately strong late in the game if you can play enough every turn to topdeck a poor card. It tends to be something that I pick up with spare buys/gains more than anything else.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 12:26:42 am by dondon151 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2013, 01:03:32 am »
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Man, I'll admit that I don't fully understand Dark Ages cards yet, but I can't understand why Feodum is not in the bottom 5th or so. Maybe it will be one of the next couple, but I'm just not sure about it. I actually think it's a pretty fun card, but I mean, 9 silvers to be worth a duchy? I'm just not sure that it's going to be worth it in most decks. I had it at 47. Other than that, for the most part I had similar cards here, except for I also threw Walled Village wayyyyy low because it is a terrible excuse for a village.
Feodum can be a beast with silver gainers and +buy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2013, 04:34:12 am »
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Armory is at the same level as ironworks IMO, because the topdeck effect can be very strong (with conspirator for example).
Yeah I put it, like, 12th. Getting to $5 early really is just that important.
+1

Man, I'll admit that I don't fully understand Dark Ages cards yet, but I can't understand why Feodum is not in the bottom 5th or so. Maybe it will be one of the next couple, but I'm just not sure about it. I actually think it's a pretty fun card, but I mean, 9 silvers to be worth a duchy? I'm just not sure that it's going to be worth it in most decks. I had it at 47. Other than that, for the most part I had similar cards here, except for I also threw Walled Village wayyyyy low because it is a terrible excuse for a village.
Feodum can be a beast with silver gainers and +buy.

I actually think feodum is the most powerful alternative VP card of the game, because of its flexibility. Even with no silver gainers, feodum can be very powerful :
- To trash early (like in chapel games)
- To trash later for the money (you play with apprentice, you draw your deck each turn but don't have enough for double/triple province every turn...)
- In all games where your deck is flooded by silvers, you can play an hybrid province/feodum strat (feodums worth 4, sometimes even 5 points easily). For example, you can play Trader + feodum, trashing some feodums to get even more silvers and at the same time taking provinces (can work with develop, too).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2013, 06:21:55 am »
0

:O how did  Pirate Ship get ranked above Navigator?!?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2013, 08:06:55 am »
+3

Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

This. This times 100. Either people are underranking Woodcutter or overranking Nomad Camp, because these two cards aren't actually all that different.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2013, 09:29:12 am »
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If we're only talking two player... even I may be tempted to put Scout ahead of Thief. It would be a hard call. Thief is really useful in the ONE case where your idiot plays Chapel/Big Money. And also with Ill-Gotten Gains. And now and then, other times.

Thief is commonly one strong reason to go engine over money.

To clarify, in this particular matchup (engine vs. money) I think it's stronger than a card like Saboteur, since Saboteur has the drawback of hitting their points and converting it to money with which they can use to buy their points back, whereas Thief can kill the opponent's economy past the point of recovery if he ever starts to green.

On an unrelated note, Spy also tends to be a card that I tend to ignore, but it's definitely a nice addition to engine decks because the attack is moderately strong late in the game if you can play enough every turn to topdeck a poor card. It tends to be something that I pick up with spare buys/gains more than anything else.

The thief attack scales very much with how often you can play it. Whereas playing a curser is about equally as good the first, 4th, and 8th time you do it (technically speaking, cursing could have diminishing returns, since each additional curse lowers their good card density slightly less), the first few thief attacks do minimal damage, or even help your opponent by getting rid of bad treasures.  However, if you can play thief more often than they can buy treasure, you will end up breaking them.  I don't know much about 3+p games, but I imagine that if you have 2 people thieving, their attacks should have more synergy than multiple people cursing.
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Piemaster

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2013, 11:07:39 am »
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So far, five people have complained that Pirate Ship is way overrated.  I checked all their Council Room pages and none of them really play anything other than two player.

Just sayin' :)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 11:09:50 am by Piemaster »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2013, 11:37:30 am »
+2

So far, five people have complained that Pirate Ship is way overrated.  I checked all their Council Room pages and none of them really play anything other than two player.

Just sayin' :)

I play all my three and four players game IRL.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2013, 12:21:12 pm »
+4

Lastly, why is Coppersmith on here?  I'll grant it's awful if you are trashing all your coppers, but a lot of boards have engine potential, but without trashing.  Any deck where you can draw your deck and don't trash your opening coppers, it is a terminal +$7!  What decks are these?  Good Tac decks, Wharf decks, any board with KC, Village-Torturer, etc.  I think it should be a minimum of 10 spots higher.

I think cards that are good for these kinds of decks are generally underrated. I feel like people tend to think of 2 kinds of strategies:
1. Only 1-2 different actions and lots of money
2. Games where you trash everything and have nothing but actions and maybe Gold.

But there's a lot of stuff in between where Coppersmith or Shanty Town or Workshop or Develop are good cards.
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