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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)  (Read 65441 times)

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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 5/5)
« on: January 24, 2013, 04:47:37 pm »
+7

Here's the video link:



The Best $4 Cards - Part 1/5
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#53 Scout (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 1.7% ▲0.3pp / Median: 0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 5.2% ▼1.3pp
Highest Value(s): 23.1% (1x), 19.2% (1x), 16.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (35x)

Scout is the worst $4 card again. There's no doubt about it. It has the lowest deviation in this list and it has a similar bad result als last time: Everyone voted it in the lower fourth and more than the half voted it last.

Scout has its uses. You don't need to spend an action, but it isn't a cantrip, so it really can hurt your deck. If you're massively going green this can be nice as it makes your next turn better, but is still not good. It has a nice synergy with Wishing Well (making it a cheap Lab) and of course it's great with dual-type-victory cards like Harem, Great Hall and Nobles, making Scout a Lab or even better. There might be more edge cases when Scout shines, but what makes Scout really bad is that even when it's good you often do better skipping Scout, because you waste a turn marginally improving your deck.
#52 Thief (Base) Weighted Average: 3.1% ▼0.9pp / Median: 1.9% ▼0.5pp / Standard Deviation: 6.6% ▼0.8pp
Highest Value(s): 42.3% (1x), 25.0% (1x), 14.3% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (8x)

So, Thief is still as bad as before. And again, there's no doubt. It has the second lowest deviation, it was voted 8 times last and only 3 players voted it above 10%.

An attack on such a low position may seem strange, but Thief has the big problem helping your opponent in the early game. It's a free trasher for your opponent and even later it's so risky hitting the Coppers of your opponent. Its only use may be in thin Chapel decks or if you manage to play it multiple times per turn. And it gets better in 3- or 4-player games, where you can minimize the risk of getting nothing and hitting Coppers. In these games it can be very good with Gardens for example. It can be a nice counter against a Ill-Gotten-Gains rush dealing out curses with it, but it is still swingy and still a bad card. You don't want it early and in the later game it's almost never worth a buy.
#51 Coppersmith (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 12.6% ▲3.4pp / Median: 9.6% ▲2.5pp / Standard Deviation: 11.0% ▼2.3pp
Highest Value(s): 71.4% (1x), 36.5% (1x), 32.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.8% (5x), 0% (1x)

We're making now a big jump of nearly 10pp what shows that the last two cards were obvious. Coppersmith got more points than last time, but is still third last. It has the fifth lowest deviation, but one big outlier.

Yes, Coppersmith is very hard to rank, because it's either clearly the worst card on the board or it's very dominating. As a opener you may get to $6 or even $8, but you also can draw only one Copper, so it's very swingy as a opener and gets worse later. On the other hand King's Court + Coppersmith can become brutal and it has some nice synergy with Apothecary, Counting House and Tactician. The cases where it shines may occur more rarely than with any other card, but then it's a must-buy.
#50 Spy (Base) Weighted Average: 12.9% ▼3.2pp / Median: 11.5% ▼2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 12.4% ▼3.8pp
Highest Value(s): 65.4% (1x), 42.3% (1x), 38.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 1.9% (3x), 0% (2x)

Spy is one rank worse than last year. It has two last ranks and one outlier with an above average vote. It lost also consensus.

An attack that is a cantrip, that seems nice at the first look. But Spy is an attack with a pretty bad attack and little benefit. It's very swingy as you can discard your victory card (or even your Tunnel) and discard the only Witch of your opponent, but you can hit a victory card of your opponent too that you put back. That's no change for your opponent and he even may use that additional info for the next turn. You can add a Spy in your drawing engine if you have a buy and money left and don't want more Silver, but is really rarely worth a buy. It's a cantrip that doesn't hurt your engine and can really shine in an engine with Jester (or any other engine that takes profit from knowing the top card of the opponent's deck), but the benefit it gives you is marginal, similar to Scout. And regarding the benefit of knowing your own top card, you rather have a Cartographer for that.
#49 Talisman (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 13.0% ▼1.3pp / Median: 11.5% ▼2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 12.5% ▼1.4pp
Highest Value(s): 61.5% (1x), 53.8% (1x), 51.9% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 1.9% (1x), 0% (2x)

Talisman switched places with Spy, but it was close. So, it's one rank higher, but still it lost points. It has even 3 votes above average, but also 2 last ranks.

There are very few cards for $4, you want in masses. Silk Road and Gardens may be a exception, but Talisman doesn't work with victory cards. So there are even less cards you want for free with Talisman. Fool's Gold, Caravan and in some cases Throne Room, Conspirator and Tournament came to my mind being the only cards which makes Talisman a good buy, especially as a opener. You can build a Village + Smithy/Envoy engine quicker too, but this is rarely worth a Talisman buy since you need money too. But it shines especially with cost reducers like Quarry, Bridge and especially Highway. Play Highway, play Talisman, buy Highway, get one for free, that's nice. Talisman is also nice for a quick 3-pile ending. This works well with Bishop for example: get many Talismans and then Bishops, trash Talismans for 3VP and try to three-pile. But Talisman also can hurt very badly since the free extra card is not optional, so only buy Talisman if you really want cheap card in masses. And don't forget: if you're buying more expensive cards you've spent $4 for a Copper.
#48 Treasure Map (Seaside) Weighted Average: 15.4% ▼2.8pp / Median: 13.5% ▼3.2pp / Standard Deviation: 15.2% ▲0.4pp
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 53.8% (1x), 46.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.8% (2x), 0% (1x)

Treasure Map is also on the same rank as last year, ignoring Dark Ages. It has one really big outlier on the second rank, but also one last rank vote. In the unweighted ranking, it would be one rank higher.

Treasure Map's power is undeniable. An early enabling can already decide a game. But you can hardly call it strategy going for Treasure Map. You really need enablers for that, like Warehouse, Chapel, Tactician or the Watchtower/Talisman combo. If you go for Treasure Map without such enablers, you totally rely on your luck. And losing against a totally luck-based enabling can really be frustrating. Of course it's strong, but it's hard to make it work, what makes it weak in general.
#47 Navigator (Seaside) Weighted Average: 17.1% ▼1.5pp / Median: 15.4% ▼1.3pp / Standard Deviation: 12.3% ▼0.9pp
Highest Value(s): 67.3% (1x), 51.9% (1x), 38.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 1.9% (2x), 0% (2x)

Navigator lost a rank, but is only slightly worse than last time. It was voted two times last and two times above average. In the unweighted ranking it would be below Treasure Map.

Scout is at least non-terminal. Top-decking the next 5 cards in a specific order is only nice if you have still an action left to draw a few of them. Because if you don't do that, you draw all 5 cards no matter in what order you put them back. The discarding option is nice to minimize shuffle luck and to get a half Chancellor effect, but still it is terminal and most of the time there are better terminal cards on the board. At least it gives you $2. The best use still may be to enable Tunnel's reaction.
#46 Rats (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 18.7% / Median: 17.3% / Standard Deviation: 18.9%
Highest Value(s): 78.8% (1x), 69.2% (1x), 59.6% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 1.9% (3x), 0% (1x)

This is the first Dark Ages card and therefore it has still a high deviation. It was 4 times voted above average and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Rats is DXV's favourite card. It can replace bad cards with... bad cards. So why do you want them? If there are trash for benefit cards, Rats trash the Copper, Estates and Curses while the TfB cards can trash the Rats . But you really have to evaluate if it isn't still better ignoring the Rats and go straight for the Trash-for-Benefit card. But this is still the trap card for Beginners. Just don't play a Rats if you don't want to trash anything!! Rats is also good with cards than benefit from having many action cards, like Scrying Pool, Vineyard and Death Cart.
#45 Bureaucrat (Base) Weighted Average: 20.3% ▼1.7pp / Median: 19.2% ▼2.2pp / Standard Deviation: 12.9% ▲1.9pp
Highest Value(s): 66.7% (1x), 51.9% (1x), 50.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 5.8% (5x), 4.8% (1x), 1.9% (1x)

Bureaucrat is 2 ranks worse than last time, but lost not that much points. It's the first card that wasn't voted last. In the unweighted ranking, it's below Rats.

The attack of Bureaucrat is weak. Your opponent loses one card that he don't need anyway for him getting another 4 card hand in the next turn. And he might even be able to counter that easily by playing Farming Village for example. The attack gets better in multiplayer games, especially if there are dual-type victory cards like Nobles or Harem on the board. The benefit on the other side still isn't good either. Top-decked silvers are nice, especially in the beginning and you can get to $8 with 4 silvers too, but it's not easy. So it seems Bureaucrat is nice where you don't want to get to $8 and Silver is a good card, like in Duke / Silk Road / Feodum and especially Gardens games, but then Bureaucrat is a good counter too. And you can play your Bureaucrat less frequently if your deck is already flooded with silvers. Bureaucrat + Big Money is not bad. On the other side as it doesn't seem to have synergies with other cards.
#44 Pirate Ship (Seaside) Weighted Average: 20.8% ▲2.4pp / Median: 16.7% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3% ▼2.4pp
Highest Value(s): 90.4% (1x), 76.2% (1x), 75.0% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.8% (3x)

Pirate Ship is two ranks higher than last year and has a pretty high deviation with some really high votes in the upper fourth.

There's the next attack that trashes treasures. Again, hitting Coppers even helps your opponent. And when there are cards with virtual coin, you can defend pretty well. The high ranks may result from players mainly playing 3 or 4-player games where Pirate Ships can be devastating because if 3 players go for it in a 4-player game you really are forced to get those too. In 2-player games it's too slow most of the times. And, with Pirate Ship you really want to buy as many as you can, so you can play them multiple times, and with Throne Room or King's Court and +Buy this card is really great.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 06:13:35 pm by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2013, 04:47:48 pm »
+4

The Best $4 Cards - Part 2/5

Video Link:

#43 Feast (Base) Weighted Average: 22.1% ▲0.7pp / Median: 19.0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7% ▼3.4pp
Highest Value(s): 88.1% (1x), 65.4% (2x), 64.3% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 5.8% (2x), 3.8% (2x)

Feast is one rank higher than last time. With three votes above average and one of them a big outlier, its deviation is much worse than last time. In the unweighted ranking, it would be one rank lower, below Pirate Ship.

Feast basically does nothing but being a one-shot balancing bad shuffle luck, especially at the start. If you really want a specific $5 card and have a 4/3 opening you can open with Feast and can be sure to get that $5 card soon. That's especially good if you don't want any Silvers in the first place. It also can be used with Throne Room and King's Court to gain multiple $5 cards. It's only other use is gaining Duchies, especially in Duke games.
#42 Nomad Camp (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 23.6% ▲0.7pp / Median: 21.2% ▼0.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.6% ▼5.5pp
Highest Value(s): 96.2% (1x), 61.5% (1x), 53.8% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 5.8% (2x), 3.8% (1x)

Nomad Camp is on the same rank as last time and was voted 5 times above average. It was even voted on #3 once. But it lost a lot of consensus.

Woodcutter was the third worst $3 card. Here we have a Woodcutter with a on-buy top-deck ability. Is it worth costing $1 more? And how can it be that it ranks higher than Woodcutter? IMO there are only 2-3 reasons for that. You have a high chance to get a $5 card on turn 2 even with a 4/3 opening (so Witch / Nomad Camp is on #104 ▼18 and Nomad Camp / Trading Post at #113 ▼22 of the best openings). Similar to that it is nice you need the +Buy either way and need multiple cheap cards as fast you can. But the only opening which is strong without $5s is IMO Nomad Camp / Fool's Gold / Fool's Gold on #210 ▲129 of the best openings. The last reason is if you're really unlucky in the late game and only get $4 and want to maximize the chances to hit $8 in the next turn. Beside of that it's only an expensive Woodcutter.
#41 Armory (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 25.5% / Median: 25.0% / Standard Deviation: 10.0%
Highest Value(s): 51.9% (1x), 42.3% (1x), 40.4% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 9.6% (2x), 5.8% (1x)

Armory is the second Dark Ages card in this list. It has a way lower deviation than all other Dark Ages cards in this list and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Armory is the new Workshop/Ironworks variant. It's the weakest one for Gardens rushes, but it's way better in setting up an engine with cheap engine cards than Workshop. It's still hurts that it is terminal which means that Ironworks is mostly preferred. But if there aren't any strong terminals then Armory can even be better. It can also be used to put a Potion on top of your deck which can be great in Vineyard games.
#40 Noble Brigand (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 26.1% ▼4.4pp / Median: 19.2% ▼4.6pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7% ▼1.5pp
Highest Value(s): 73.1% (1x), 69.2% (2x), 65.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 7.7% (3x), 3.8% (1x)

Noble Brigand is one rank lower than last year with a notable drop in points. In the unweighted ranking it would even one more rank lower. It was voted 6 times above average.

Noble Brigand is the better Thief on many boards. It hasn't the disadvantage of trashing the opponents Coppers, making it a better opener. It even attacks on-buy. It deals out Coppers too, which is nice playing against no-treasure decks. And it gives $1 too, so you have at least an immediate benefit. But it's worse in Colony games as it cannot steal Platinum, it cannot steal Ill-Gotten-Gains like Thief and cannot steal other Kingdom treasure cards. And most important: it's still too slow and doesn't hurt enough if you can't play one nearly each turn. But Noble Brigand + Big Money is pretty decent on weak boards and a good counter to many strategies.
#39 Walled Village (Promo) Weighted Average: 27.9% ▼2.3pp / Median: 26.0% ▼2.6pp / Standard Deviation: 13.1% ▲1.4pp
Highest Value(s): 55.8% (1x), 53.8% (1x), 46.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 1.9% (1x), 0% (2x)

Walled Village is one rank higher because it changed places with Noble Brigand, but it still lost points. It is the best ranked card that was voted last, and it was voted last even twice.

It is the worst of the now six $4 villages. Why? Its only ability is top deck it if you weren't able to use both actions. So this is nice if you have only 2-3 terminal actions and really want to play them each time without taking the risk of colliding. That's especially useful with Torturer and Ambassador.
#38 Remodel (Base) Weighted Average: 38.0% ▲2.7pp / Median: 36.5% ▲3.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.1% ▼0.8pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 73.1% (1x), 69.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.2% (2x), 19.2% (1x), 15.4% (1x)

We're making now a huge jump of around 10pp. It's on the same rank as last year, but has a better rating. It's the first card with no voted below 10% and it has even one first rank. It was voted 11 times above average and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Remodel introduced us to the cards that trash for a better card. As an opener it has big problems trashing the Coppers, because you need either good $2 cards on the board you want in masses like Fool's Gold (Remodel / Fool's Gold is on #176 ▼8 of the best openings) or Lighthouse or you need to remodel in 2 steps (Estate to Silver or another $3-$4 card) which is not really a good idea. But Remodel is good in the later game. Just remodel your money in the respective victory card.
#37 Ironworks (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 40.4% ▼5.2pp / Median: 36.5% ▼6.4pp / Standard Deviation: 16.1% ▲2.3pp
Highest Value(s): 71.4% (1x), 71.2% (1x), 69.2% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 14.3% (1x), 13.5% (1x), 11.5% (1x)

Ironworks is on the same rank as last year too, but has a big drop in rating of over 5pp. On the other side the agreement is higher and it has even 14 votes above average. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank lower.

Ironworks is the superior Workshop which was pretty low on the $3 list and is better than Armory. Does it deserve a higher rating? The biggest bonus for getting a lot of wanted action cards like Caravan is: Ironworks is non-terminal. So you can get Ironworks with Ironworks and then quickly get Caravans or other $4 cards. Being an Intrigue card it also combos nice with dual-type cards, so getting Great Halls or Islands makes Ironworks a cantrip. And it also works better in Gardens or Silk Road games for getting an additional card and increasing the probability getting to $4. But it lacks the same problem as Workshop and Armory: How many $4 cards do you want? So many times Ironworks is skippable.
#36 Trader (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 44.5% ▼3.7pp / Median: 42.3% ▼5.3pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5% ▲0.2pp
Highest Value(s): 90.5% (1x), 90.4% (1x), 76.9% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.2% (3x), 19.2% (1x)

Trader has not many really bad votes. It was voted only once below 20%. It has also 2 really high votes around 90%. Still it's one rank worse than last year with a drop of nearly 4pp. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking, so it's overrated by newer players.

Trader is - like all Reaction cards - very situational. It's Silver gaining defense is mostly stronger than Watchtower's trashing, so you have to think twice if you really want to play that Curse-giving attack or another card that deals out junk and give your opponent a free Silver, especially with Mountebank on the board for 2 Silvers. Trader is a good opener in non-Colony Big Money games too, so you can trash Estates for 2 Silvers. But it's a real powerhouse with Feodum now as it can trash Feoda for 7 Silvers or eventually trashing a Silver to 3 Silvers, easily emptying the Silver pile and give a lot of points. It's also good if you have some extra buys, for example with Squire, to get some extra Silvers. But in many other boards Trader is simply a no-go.
#35 Quarry (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 44.6% ▼4.0pp / Median: 40.4% ▼4.8pp / Standard Deviation: 19.2% ▼0.8pp
Highest Value(s): 88.5% (1x), 84.6% (1x), 83.3% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 17.3% (2x), 13.5% (1x)

Quarry has only a 0.1pp lead over Trader and would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It has also 18 votes above average.

Quarry is very situational too. For action cards, this is basically a Gold you can pick up in the opening turns. So if you want many action cards and have additional buys too, Quarry is a must buy, especially with Goons or Grand Market. It can also be very good to get an early Forge or King's Court. But in the later game when you picking up victory cards, you wish this weren't only a Copper. Quarry / Ambassador is the #69 ▲11 best opening, both good cards for building an engine.
#34 Feodum (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 45.5% / Median: 42.3% / Standard Deviation: 24.6%
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 88.5% (1x), 82.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 8.0% (1x), 5.8% (2x)

Feodum is the only Kingdom Victory card from Dark Ages. It is the card with the second highest deviation in this list. It would be one rank lower in the unweighter ranking.

Victory cards are hard to rank, especially when they are new. We'll see how its rank will change in the future. While Gardens rushes want to deplete 3 piles as fast as possible and Silk Road strategies are often rushes too, Feodum games have problems to deplete 3 piles because you can't deplete the Silver pile as easy. That doesn't mean it's weak. Silver gainers like Squire, Bureaucrat, Explorer, Jack of All Trades all work well, but also the typical gainers like Ironworks & Workshop. Your goal is to get at least 2 Silvers or Silver/Feodum a turn. But Trader can easily get 3 Silvers a turn and even trash a Feodum for 7 Silvers and easily deplete the Silver pile. Talisman works also very well as a rush as you can deplete the Talisman pile, the Silver pile and then the Feoda. But often this isn't a rush, but this isn't bas because with that many Silvers you can easily buy Duchies or even Provinces and play a mixed Rush/BM strategy. Jack of All Trades also let you trash a Feodum to boost the other Feoda if you want to. You want to do this late in the game if your Feoda are each worth at least one more as the number of Feoda you have in your deck or early to boost your economy. Regarding trashing: Feodum/Chapel is a nice opening just to trash everything down and still have a decent economy of 3 Silvers or if you have a Watchtower in hand and $3-$5. Then you can basically buy 3 Silvers instead of just one.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 03:03:57 pm by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2013, 04:48:12 pm »
+6

The Best $4 Cards - Part 3/5

Video Link:

#33 Scavenger (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 48.3% / Median: 51.9% / Standard Deviation: 20.3%
Highest Value(s): 88.5% (1x), 84.6% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 17.3% (1x), 11.5% (1x), 9.6% (1x)

Scavenger is the next Dark Ages card in this list. Of course it has high deviation. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list.

Chancellor is the worst $3 card and Scavenger is similar, but so much higher ranked. Does its bonus really justify it? In short, yes. It's not the best Big Money card, but even a Big Money - like approach is not that bad in my limited experience with this card; putting back a Gold or even a Platinum is great. But also in engines with cheap villages like Hamlet of Fishing Village where you often have spare Actions, you can - similar to Scheme - setup your next turn or even mid-turn top-deck the card you need what is very strong - and of course you cycle faster. There are still often more powerful terminals, but Scavenger can be pretty effective, don't underestimate it. And it combos even better with Stash. 2 Scavengers and 4 Stashes guarantee you a Province each turn.
#32 Cutpurse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 49.4% ▼1.3pp / Median: 50.0% ▲2.4pp / Standard Deviation: 17.7% ▼0.4pp
Highest Value(s): 84.6% (1x), 83.3% (1x), 82.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.2% (1x), 9.5% (1x), 7.7% (1x)

Cutpurse lost not many points, it's Median is even higher, but it still lost 3 ranks. It got 4 votes above 80%. It would be below Scavenger in the unweighted ranking.

Cutpurse is a pretty good opener. It's a terminal Silver that can even hit harder than Militia. In the beginning where every coin is important to get to $5, Cutpurse can be really annoying. And it is even worse in games with more than 2 players where you can lose multiple Coppers in one turn. Yes, later it gets worse and worse and is nothing but a terminal Silver where you can see your opponents hand.
#31 Island (Seaside) Weighted Average: 49.9% ▲1.0pp / Median: 48.1% ▲0.5pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1% ▼2.0pp]
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 92.3% (1x), 85.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 25.0% (3x), 23.1% (1x), 19.2% (1x)

Island has not really a bad vote and has even some really high votes - it was voted even on the second rank. It's on the same rank as last year with a slightly better point average.

Island does pseudo-trashing with the addition of giving additional points. So you can use it for pseudo-trashing the Estates without losing the points and later in the game you can pick it up and take your Provinces out of your deck. It can really be great with Silk Road on the board. It is rarely a game-changer, but can be a nice addition to some decks to keep them clean. And even in cursing games with no trashers, you can take Curses out of your deck for a total net of +1 point. The problem is that you don't build up your economy if you open with it and if there important cards for $5 or $6 you often have to skip Island. Getting Islands with Ironworks can also be very nice because then the Ironworks is a cantrip that gives you 2VP.
#30 Farming Village (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 50.8% ▼1.7pp / Median: 50.0% ▼2.4pp / Standard Deviation: 15.1% =0
Highest Value(s): 80.8% (1x), 78.6% (1x), 75.0% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 28.6% (1x), 25.0% (1x), 2.4% (1x)

Farming Village is the second out 6 villages in this list. It lost 2 ranks and has a pretty low deviation. It has a really big outlier in the low ranks, but beside of that only votes above 25%.

The additional ability of this village is always useful and a good counter in cursing games and against top-decking attacks like Rabble. And later in the game where you are heavily greening its additional ability is very useful too. You may even pick it up if you don't necessarily need the actions and just want to have its filter ability. But in games without cursers or even good trashing, it's in the beginning often only an expensive "normal" village. Farming Village / Masquerade is the #90 and Farming Village / Ambassador is the #111 ▼20 best opening.
#29 Fortress (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 52.2% / Median: 53.8% / Standard Deviation: 18.5%
Highest Value(s): 90.4% (1x), 82.7% (1x), 80.8% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 25.0% (2x), 21.2% (1x), 17.3% (1x)

Fortress is the first card of 7 card that are very close together. So, they can be basically all be switched in ranks. It's also the second village in a row and the third village in this list. In the unweighted ranking it would be 2 ranks higher.

This is the new Dark Ages village variant with an on-trash ability that does crazy stuff. The are many trashers that could trigger its ability, but you rather use them to trash junk. But you can use trash-for-benefit cards for it. The best one might be Bishop. 4 Fortesses and 4 Bishops guarantee you 12VP per turn. Procession/Fortress is also crazy as it let you basically draw 3 cards, gives you 5 Actions and a free $5 Action card. Fortress is also a very good defense against trashing attacks like Knights or Swindler and also a decent defense against Governor for free Duchies. So, when there are trashing attacks or trash-for-benefit cards, it really shines, but otherwise it's only an expensive vanilla village.
#28 Wandering Minstrel (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 52.3% / Median: 50.0% / Standard Deviation: 18.4%
Highest Value(s): 86.5% (1x), 84.0% (1x), 82.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 23.1% (1x), 17.3% (2x)

A gap of 0.1pp and there is the third village in a row, the second from Dark Ages and the fourth one in this list. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank lower.

This new village variant is very tricky and I admit that I don't understand it fully yet. Unlike a vanilla village it can even hurt in your deck, especially in Looter games where you will discard your Silvers to put Ruins on top of your deck. But if your building an engine (I expect you want that as you're buying a village) you can sort of guarantee to draw your terminal and your village together. It's great with Torturer as it skips over curses and helps connecting Minstrels with Torturers. The problem is still that you don't have a choice. You sometimes put back Action cards that you don't need next turn and rather want to discard. So, its filtering is often worse than the filtering of Warehouse, but of course you don't lose handsize and get an additional Action. And Wandering Minstrel really shines in decks/engines with no trashing and Actions providing virtual money and can therefore used to setup Conspirator chains or similar decks. Also Wishing Well combos very well with it.
#27 Baron (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 52.4% ▲2.0pp / Median: 51.9% ▲1.9pp / Standard Deviation: 18.2% ▲0.5pp
Highest Value(s): 96.2% (1x), 94.2% (1x), 88.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 26.9% (1x), 17.3% (1x), 5.8% (1x)

Baron is another 0.1pp ahead. It's one rank better than last time. It got one really high rank and one really low one. In the unweighted ranking it would be two ranks higher.

Baron is very interesting as it gives you a very high probability getting Gold early and even get a very early King's Court or Forge, but is very swingy too. If you cannot draw your Baron with an Estate, this is a dead card in the beginning, because you mostly don't want another Estate (and getting Estate for feeding your Baron is mostly no good idea). But as the game goes on, the probability decreases drawing an Estate with Baron. It has also a nice synergy with Crossroads. In the middle game Baron is most of the time no good card, but later in the game it can you net another point and gives you a +Buy too. If you're going to trash your Estates, don't buy a Baron and if you have a deck that can guarantee an Estate in every hand, like multiple Hunting Parties or engines with big card draw, Baron can very powerful. With Dark Ages in Shelter games Baron is mostly pretty much useless, makes it basically much worse now. So it seems strange that it is now one rank higher.
#26 Moneylender (Base) Weighted Average: 52.5% ▼1.3pp / Median: 51.9% ▼7.6pp / Standard Deviation: 18.0% ▲2.9pp
Highest Value(s): 95.2% (1x), 90.5% (1x), 84.6% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 23.8% (1x), 19.2% (1x), 9.6% (1x)

After that huge drop last time, Moneylender lost even 2 more ranks. And it has also a tiny 0.1pp lead over the previous card. At least the consensus is much higher than last time. And in the unweighted ranking it would be two ranks higher.

Moneylender is another card that falls into the category "Great opener, bad afterwards". It's like a Silver but with the trash ability at the same time. The comparism to Spice Merchant is obvious. Moneylender is a much better opener with the deficit of not being so flexible later in the game. You mostly only want one of it (maybe only on Mountebank boards you would maybe buy a second), but this one can really fasten the game. It's less important as it used to be, but still great for building an engine with high cost cards.
#25 Procession (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 52.6% / Median: 53.8% / Standard Deviation: 23.7%
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 98.1% (1x), 90.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 23.1% (1x), 17.3% (1x), 15.4% (1x)

Procession is the next Dark Ages card in this list and again it has a lead of 0.1pp. This means the last 5 cards are all in a range of 0.4pp. It has the third highest deviation in this list with some really high votes; it was voted even first and second. In the unweighted ranking it would be two ranks higher.

Procession is even harder to rank than Throne Room because it's even more board dependant. You want strong Action cards in the kingdom that are worth playing them twice and strong Action cards in a specific price range so that you can get a bonus out of the trashing. Of course it's best with on-trash benefits. Like said before Procession+Fortress is a real powerhouse and to play it on Cultist or Catacombs on the right moment can be really great.
#24 Mining Village (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 53.0% ▼1.0pp / Median: 53.8% ▼1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.0% ▲1.4pp
Highest Value(s): 78.8% (1x), 76.9% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 23.1% (1x), 21.4% (1x), 17.3% (1x)

Another small lead of 0.4pp here. Mining Village is 2 ranks worse than last year and has a low deviation with no real outliers for a middle ranked card. In the unweighted ranking it would be 4 ranks lower.

Mining Village is a normal Village with a one-shot Silver possibility and the second best village for $4. If you need a Village you can use that one-shot self-trashing option later in the game when you give up your engine and fully commit on going green or have bad luck late in the game and only hit $6 or $7. And even if you doesn't have a engine and are going basically big money, you can buy this in the mid-game when you miss $6 for a Gold and don't want another Silver in your deck, because this still gives you the additional card and the $2 of a Silver. And if you have enough money and no additional buy you can save the one-shot Silver for later. Mining Village / Ambassador is the #109th ▼33 best opening.
#23 Spice Merchant (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 53.1% ▲7.0pp / Median: 51.9% ▲11.4pp / Standard Deviation: 20.1% ▲1.7pp
Highest Value(s): 88.5% (2x), 86.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 15.4% (1x), 13.5% (1x), 3.8% (1x)

Spice Merchant is one of the winners in this list. It's 8 ranks higher than last time and is 7pp higher. And regarding close ranks: It's also 0.1pp above Mining Village. This means that the ranks #23 to #29 are in a range of 0.9pp. In the unweighted ranking it would be 3 ranks lower.

Spice Merchant is a very flexible trasher and the comparism to Moneylender is obvious. It produces less money for the cost of an additional buy. It can really shine if you want a non-terminal trasher for example in combination with Minions (its option +2 cards, +1 action basically restores the hand size) and if there's no other +Buy and you really need one. It's therefore more flexible (not limited to Copper and two options to choose from) but a slower opener as it's harder to get to $5 early on. It may be still useful later on, but it can lead to very hard decisions if you really want to trash that Silver. Spice Merchant / Ambassador is the #22 ▼3 best opening (and the third best Ambassador opening), because you can trash coppers you get from your opponent and still play your Ambassador with a full hand. This is the first time that it is higher than Moneylender in this list.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 02:48:41 pm by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2013, 04:48:20 pm »
+4

The Best $4 Cards - Part 4/5

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#22 Death Cart (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 58.9% / Median: 55.8% / Standard Deviation: 23.1%
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 96.2% (1x), 88.5% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.2% (1x), 19.2% (1x), 17.3% (1x)

After all the cards close together we're making now a jump of nearly 6pp and there's the third best Dark Ages card in this list. Of course it has still high deviation. It was voted 8 times above 80% and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

A terminal $5 is very powerful and even with the possibility of an one-shot it's often a more powerful version of Feast. When you buy it, you gain 2 Ruins, but often that's no real disadvantage because they are great targets for Death Cart. Death Cart is therefore also a good "defense" against Marauder or Cultist. Death Cart loves +Buy because that helps picking up cheap targets for Death Cart like Vagrant for example and mitigates the effect of overpaying by a lot when you get $5. In engines that draw most of the deck (and has +Buy), it can serve a similar function to Baron, so you don't need (that much) Golds.
#21 Gardens (Base) Weighted Average: 59.2% ▼3.6pp / Median: 59.5% ▼4.8pp / Standard Deviation: 15.5% ▲3.0pp
Highest Value(s): 82.7% (2x), 81.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 30.8% (2x), 19.0% (1x)

Alternative victory cards are really hard to rank, so this time Gardens is 5 ranks lower with a small lead over Death Cart of 0.3pp. The deviation is now way lower as it has no big outliers and has only one vote below 30%. In the unweighted ranking it would be below Death Cart.

Gardens is another card from the base set, introduced us to alternative victory cards. The Gardens rush is still a very good strategy on many boards and there are a lot of supporting cards for it. Gardens is on non-trashing boards easily worth a Duchy and can be worth even more. The Ironworks/Gardens rush is well known and one of the best existing combos. Gardens gets even better in cursing games or other slogs where 3-piling gets faster and is harder to get to $8. But you could even transition out of an engine to Gardens, so Gardens is interesting basically on every board and is only weak in Big Money.
#20 Horse Traders (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 59.3% ▲4.0pp / Median: 61.5% ▲4.4pp / Standard Deviation: 16.5% ▲0.2pp
Highest Value(s): 90.4% (1x), 86.5% (1x), 83.3% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 28.8% (1x), 26.9% (2x)

Horse Traders has a tiny lead over Gardens of 0.1pp and is on the same rank as last year. But it has way more points than last year as it is 4pp better. The deviation is nearly the same and it has only 3 votes below 30%. In the unweighted ranking it would be even 2 ranks higher.

Horse Traders is one of the few Reaction cards that is useful on many boards. Yes, it is still situational, but the situations occur very often. It's geat against discarding attacks, restoring the hand size - especially against Minion for a hand of 6 cards. Especially with weak attacks this card is good, because the benefit from Horse Traders is bigger for the opponent than the benefit for yourself playing a weak attack. But, the action part is very useful too. It's useful in decks full of green cards and curses, so it's a good supporting card for Gardens or Silk Road rushes, or buying Dukes. And it's a good addition to Hunting Party, a good starter for getting $5 early or early Grand Markets and so on... many possibilities. Still, as it is a Reaction card, it's very situational and skippable when there are stronger terminals on the board.
#19 Envoy (Promo) Weighted Average: 60.6% ▼4.5pp / Median: 59.6% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 21.0% ▼5.8pp
Highest Value(s): 92.3% (1x), 90.5% (1x), 90.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 23.1% (1x), 15.4% (1x), 0% (1x)

Envoy is 5 ranks worse than last time, but what's even more striking is it's huge drop in consensus. In the unweighted ranking it would be even one rank lower.

Envoy is maybe THE Big Money card. In a deck full of silver and an Envoy in hand, you're almost guaranteed a Province. In a Envoy Big Money deck you don't necessarily need Gold, as it will get discarded from your opponent either way. Smithy is draws 3 cards, of course this is stronger in BM games for drawing 4 cards. In engine games this is usually worse, as your opponent will discard your key card. But if you have a deck with a density of high quality, Envoy can be a very good addition too as you may draw the discarded card later again if you can draw your whole deck.
#18 Smithy (Base) Weighted Average: 60.8% ▼1.7pp / Median: 59.6% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 15.9% ▼0.3pp
Highest Value(s): 90.4% (1x), 88.5% (1x), 86.5% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 33.3% (1x), 23.1% (1x), 19.2% (1x)

Smithy lost a little bit of points too and one rank; it's this time above Envoy, but it was close only a difference of 0.2pp. It was voted below 40% only 5 times. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank lower.

This is maybe the simplest card when you're learning Dominion. It has so few text, but is yet very powerful. It introduced us to the card drawing mechanism, the key card for Big Money and engines. In the base set Double-Smithy was still good, but the value dropped down. BM-Smithy is still the way to go on many boards, and if you need a card drawer for a good working engine, Smithy is still a good pick.
#17 Worker's Village (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 62.3% ▲1.5pp / Median: 59.6% ▲0.1pp / Standard Deviation: 16.8% ▼2.2pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 98.1% (1x), 90.4% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 35.7% (1x), 34.6% (1x), 26.2% (1x)

Worker's Village is one rank higher than last time as has some really high votes; it was even voted first and second. Also it has only 3 votes below 40%. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank higher.

If you build an engine, you need villages, draw, money and buys. Fishing Village is good because it is reliable and gives you money. Worker's Village gives you the additional buy - you have it included in your village so you don't need a separate card for that. So this is the best out of the 6 villages because most of the times when this is available an engine is possible. It's also great picking up additional Peddlers in masses and with Goons where you need as many buys as you can get. But when you just need a simple village and don't plan to get more than $8 or $11 respectively, other villages for $4 are probably better. Worker's Village / Ambassador is the #78 best opening.
#16 Silk Road (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 62.8%
 ▼1.1pp / Median: 61.9% ▼2.4pp / Standard Deviation: 20.5% ▲1.6pp
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 96.2% (1x), 90.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 25.0% (1x), 23.1% (1x), 9.5% (1x)

Silk Road is again better than Gardens, but lost one rank too and a little bit of points. It's previously high deviation is now better, but still high. It has a lead over Worker's Village of only 0.5pp and in the unweighted ranking it would be below it.

Silk Road plays often similarly to Gardens. You can rush them, with support of Workshop/Ironworks and/or additional buys for double Estates in the end game. Baron and Crossroads are great supporting cards, but Silk Road can work in slogs too. While it's mostly easier to make Gardens worth 3VP than Silk Roads, it's much easier to get Silk Roads to 5VP than Gardens, so it scales much better. Silk Road is especially great with a board with dual-type victory cards like Island, Nobles, Great Halls or Harem. With Dark Ages Silk Road loses a bit of power now because only one of the Shelters is a Victory card.
#15 Throne Room (Base) Weighted Average: 64.7% ▲11.0pp / Median: 65.4% ▲15.4pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5% ▲0.8pp
Highest Value(s): 97.6% (1x), 96.2% (1x), 94.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 36.5% (1x), 23.1% (1x), 13.5% (1x)

Throne Room is probably the winner of this year in this list. It's 8 ranks and 11pp better than last year and even the agreement is slightly higher. It was voted 4 times above 90% and only 5 times below 40%.

As already mentioned in the Procession summary Throne Room for itself basically does nothing and is highly dependant on the other cards on the board, so it's hard to rank. It can be so strong, especially with strong attacks and with terminal card drawers too. But nothing is more depressing than drawing Throne Room with no other action card. So you need a high action density and hope to draw it with that card you really want to double. You can also use it as a pseudo-village if there's no-one available and really need one, if you double a cantrip. Throne Room can really be a game-changer, especially if you have the luck and draw it with the right cards, but it can also be a trap. I don't know why it's rated that much higher, but after Hinterlands, Dark Ages again made the engine stronger.
#14 Conspirator (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 64.8% ▲6.0pp / Median: 69.0% ▲11.9pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9% ▼3.0pp
Highest Value(s): 94.2% (1x), 92.9% (1x), 90.4% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 21.2% (1x), 11.5% (1x), 5.8% (1x)

Conspirator is another winner of this list. It's 6pp higher and 5 ranks better than last time. It has a small lead over Throne Room of again 0.1pp. But it also lost consensus.

Conspirator is so strong, but heavily depends on supporting cards that have to be non-terminal. Cheap action cards like Wishing Well, Pearl Diver or Hamlet that you can pick up in masses, especially with additional buys are great with Conspirator. You want thin decks with high action density. With that big support, this is a Grand Market just without the additional buy. In all other cases, you have to skip over Conspirator, because it's just a terminal Silver then.
#13 Ironmonger (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 66.2% / Median: 66.0% / Standard Deviation: 20.9%
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 94.2% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 32.7% (1x), 28.8% (1x), 13.5% (1x)

Ironmonger is the second best Dark Ages card in this list. It has only 4 votes below 40% and has five votes above 90%.

Ironmonger is good when the top card is a Victory card because you can discard it and draw a new card, it this case a better Laboratory. If you reveal a Treasure card it's also good, then you have a Peddler. If you reveal an Action, it's mediocre because then it's a Village. This can be neat when there's no village available, but the question is if you can rely on that, probably only with heavy trashing. So mostly Ironmongers are great as long as you don't have too many because revealing themselves only let you have a lot of Actions. But it's best with dual-type cards like Great Hall, Nobles and Harem. Ironmongers are a great addition to most decks that aren't terminal draw Big Money games.
#12 Salvager (Seaside) Weighted Average: 71.2% ▼0.9pp / Median: 76.9% ▲3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 18.3% ▼3.0pp
Highest Value(s): 90.4% (2x), 88.5% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 25.0% (1x), 17.3% (1x), 15.4% (1x)

After a jump of 5pp, Salvager is now the first Tier 1 card. It lost 2 ranks, but not that many points. It was only voted 6 times below average with many votes between 80% and 90%.

Salvager is one of the best trash-for-benefit cards. It's not that a great starter, but still a good card to pick up early. Later in the game you generally want to trash your best card, so you can trash a Gold for an easy Province, maybe even for a double Province. Then you have a significant lead and can salvage your Province for another one, accelerating the game, so that your opponent can't come back. So Salvager is one of the first cards in this list, that is useful on most boards.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 09:44:35 pm by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2013, 04:48:28 pm »
+8

The Best $4 Cards - Part 5/5

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#11 Marauder (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 72.1% / Median: 80.8% / Standard Deviation: 25.5%
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 98.1% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 17.3% (2x), 13.5% (1x)

Marauder is the best Dark Ages card. And it's also the card with the highest deviation in this list. It was voted 12 times above 90%, but also has a lot of low votes.

Maruder is the Dark Ages variant of Sea Hag. The attack isn't that bad. Curses are worse than Ruins and of course Curses on top of your deck are really nasty. But Marauder gives you Spoils which are very useful to get to a crucial $5 or even a Gold. So, ignoring Marauder can be devastating, but Sea Hag is still the better attack.
#10 Bridge (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 74.5% ▲8.5pp / Median: 76.9% ▲7.9pp / Standard Deviation: 14.5% ▲1.5pp
Highest Value(s): 94.2% (1x), 92.3% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 46.2% (1x), 45.2% (1x), 19.2% (1x)

Bridge is only 1 rank better than last time, but got a huge boost in points. Even the deviation is low. It was only 4 times below average and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Bridge is a very nice card. If you buy only one card, it's not more than a terminal Silver. If you use both buys, it's a terminal Gold for $4, pretty solid, but still not so exciting. But its power rises the more you can play in one turn. With 2 Bridges and you use all 3 buys, they are worth $8, so $4 per Bridge. Its value increases quadratically. With n Bridges you have n²+2n coins if you use every buy. So if you manage to play 7 Bridges and an additional copper, you can buy all 8 Provinces in one turn. The problem is still how to do that. You need enough actions and/or enough drawing power. You definitely need supporters. With a 5-card hand of 2 King's Courts and 3 Bridges, you can accomplish this easily. But also other cards like Tactician and Native Village are great supporters. If there aren't good supporters for 3-piling or mega-turning, Bridge can be a trap card. But if there are cheap engine components and you have enough Actions available Bridge can still be a very important card.
#9 Bishop (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 74.7% ▼6.5pp / Median: 78.8% ▼4.5pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7% ▼4.1pp
Highest Value(s): 96.2% (1x), 94.2% (1x), 92.9% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 34.6% (1x), 26.9% (1x), 7.7% (1x)

Bishop lost a lot of points and 2 ranks ... and also a lot of consensus. It was voted 6 times below average. It has a small lead of 0.2pp over Bridge, but would be below Bridge in the unweighted ranking.

Bishop is very strong, but the problem is the free trashing your opponent gets. So, it's questionable as an opener and really depends on the board. What makes it strong? A trashed Estate nets you already 1 point more without having it in your deck. You can also buy Duchies and trash them for the same VP or Provinces for one point less, but they aren't in your deck anymore which is great. In other scenarios you can trash a Gold late for additional 4VP. That's especially great if you get the Gold for free through Hoard, Tunnel or Market Square (which Bishop itself can activate). There is also a strategy called "Golden Deck" where you trash down to 4 cards (Bishop and 3 Treasures which give at least $7), buy a Province and trash it in the next turn, buying the next province, etc. what gives you 5 VP per turn guaranteed. With 4 Bishops and 4 Fortresses you get even 12 VP per turn without having to buy Provinces. But if you're building an engine, use the free trashing of your opponents and get the Bishop later in the game. And discarding attacks like Militia really hurt Bishop too. Bishop / Chapel is on #91 ▲37 in the best openings list.
#8 Caravan (Seaside) Weighted Average: 75.5% ▲4.4pp / Median: 78.8% ▲5.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.8% ▼0.6pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 96.2% (1x), 94.2% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 42.3% (1x), 36.5% (1x), 26.9% (1x)

Caravan is 2 ranks higher than last time and also has a way better rating. It was voted first once and got only 5 below average votes.

Caravan is the worse Laboratory, because it has a delayed benefit and can miss the reshuffle and therefore you cannot play it that often. But still a bigger hand size from a nonterminal card is great. Only Big Money decks don't necessarily profit from it, so almost all decks can need a Caravan. Getting all Caravans is still not key to win the game, but if you get them quick (e.g. from Talisman or Ironworks), this can really make a huge difference. So this is almost a must-buy for all good engines. And that a slightly weaker Laboratory costs $4 and therefore easy to pick up makes it a great card. Caravan / Ambassador is the #7 =0 the second best Ambassador opening opening and Caravan / Masquerade on #23 ▲15 the second Masquerade opening. Only the respective Tournament openings are better.
#7 Militia (Base) Weighted Average: 76.2% ▲1.4pp / Median: 80.8% ▲2.2pp / Standard Deviation: 14.5% ▲0.9pp
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 97.6% (1x), 95.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 42.9% (1x), 42.3% (1x), 30.8% (1x)

Militia is one rank better than last year and has also a slightly better rating. It was voted only 3 times below average and 8 times above 90%.

Militia is another card from the base set and it's the best in this list. Discarding attacks are really annoying and can really hurt some decks. It's great against decks with trashers as the opponent mostly has to choose between buying a good card and discarding the trasher or trash 1-2 cards and buy nothing. Militia is also a good opener as it is also a terminal silver and stops your opponent getting to $5 or $6 early. And if you can play it each turn, this is great. So Militia / Chapel is the #78 ▼11 best opening. You can combo this with Council Room / Governor and your opponent doesn't get the benefit of the additional card, or play Militia and Masquerade afterwards what could really hurt. But there situations when Militia isn't that strong, especially if there are cursers on the board, or if there are effective counters like Watchtower, Horse Traders, Library, Jack of All Trades or Menagerie on the board.
#6 Monument (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 82.3% ▲0.1pp / Median: 85.7% =0 / Standard Deviation: 16.6% ▼4.5pp
Highest Value(s): 98.1% (1x), 96.2% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 44.2% (2x), 1.9% (1x)

We're making a bigger jump of 6.1pp and there is Monument. It's on the same rank and has nearly the same points as last time. It has a really big outlier on second last, 4 votes below average and 14 votes above 90%.

You want to pick up Monument early in the game, because the more you play it, the more it's worth it. It's good in quick games without good additional buys, where it can help you to force your opponent to a 5/3 Province split to win the game. And it's good in decks where you can guarantee to play your Monument regularly. Monument / Chapel is the #57 ▼19 best opening. So one Monument is a great addition to a Hunting Party deck. Monument is also the only infinite VP generating card in the game. With a 5 card hand of 2 King's Courts and 3 Monuments you are guaranteed 9 VP per turn. But as it is terminal and when there are very good attacks on the board, then you have to ignore it.
#5 Young Witch (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 90.1% ▲1.4pp / Median: 92.3% ▲1.8pp / Standard Deviation: 12.0% ▲1.3pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 69.2% (1x), 59.5% (1x), 25.0% (1x)

And we're making the next big jump of 7.8pp to Young Witch. It's also on the same rank with a slightly better rating. It was voted first 3 times and it has only one bigger outlier which was the only vote below average.

Young Witch is a curser which generally is very strong and only costs $4, so this is huge! But you are guaranteed that there's a Moat-like bane card in the setup. If you would have bought this card either way, YW is mostly not worth it and skippable, especially if the bane is Lighthouse (it defends now in hand and in play) or Scheme (just return it again and again). But with a weak bane like Embargo YW is very strong as a curser and has still the draw-and-discard filter advantage. This leads to one of the most-fun synergies: Young Witch and Tunnel. Giving out curses and getting Gold at the same time is great. Young Witch / Tunnel is #30 ▲2 on the opening list.
#4 Tournament (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 90.5% ▼0.3pp / Median: 92.3% ▼0.6pp / Standard Deviation: 12.6% ▼0.2pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (7x) / Lowest Value(s): 51.9% (2x), 44.2% (1x)

Tournament is the second card from Cornucopia in a row and has a slight lead over Young Witch of 0.4pp. It loses one rank in comparism to last year, but it got first 7 times.

Many hate Treasure Map for being so luck-based. Tournament is also very luck-based as you have to pair a Province and a Tournament. If you manage to do that you get one of 5 prices that are so strong that Donald X. didn't want to realize these ideas as "normal" cards. So, Tournament is in fact a very good card. The prizes will be part of a different ranking, but how do you manage to get a Tournament and Province in hand? It's the same as with Treasure Map. Either trash down to few cards (e.g. Chapel), get a big hand size (e.g. Tactician), or cycle through your deck with sifters (e.g. Warehouse). Also there is the possibility to spam Tournaments which are at least nonterminal and good cards for themselves - at least until your opponent gets Provinces. It's not surprising that Tournament has 3 spots in the Top 10 openings with Ambassador (#2 =0), Chapel (#6 =0) and Masquerade (#7 ▲3)
#3 Remake (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 91.0% ▲1.1pp / Median: 92.9% =0 / Standard Deviation: 11.7% ▲2.6pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 61.9% (1x), 61.5% (1x), 42.3% (1x)

Another small lead of 0.5pp and the third card from Cornucopia in a row. Remake is one rank better than last year. It was voted first three times and also got only one vote below average.

If you compare Remake to Chapel, it can only trash 2 cards at a time but at the same time let you get 3 Silvers in your deck. And if there are good $2 cards on the board, you can buy a good card for the last two Copper in your hand too. Remake is maybe after Chapel the fastest opening trasher in the game. You can get high quality decks really fast. Later it gets nearly as useless as Chapel, but even sometimes you could do cool tricks later and also at that time this doesn't bother you too much. With Shelters and Poor House the interaction changes a little bit and makes it a little bit weaker, but it's still a must buy on many boards. Remake / Menagerie is the best opening on #193 ▼44.
#2 Jack of all Trades (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 92.3% ▼0.2pp / Median: 94.2% ▼1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 12.4% ▼3.3pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (12x) / Lowest Value(s): 64.3% (2x), 48.1% (1x), 40.4% (1x)

Jack of All Trades is on the same rank and has nearly the same ranking. It was voted first 12 times, but has still some low rankings. That's why the deviation is much lower than last time.

Nobody saw that coming when Hinterlands came out. JoaT seems so weak, but it isn't. It seems he does nothing good, he's slowing in trashing, draws few cards and let you get a Silver and has a Spy effect. But it is so strong because it's a very good counter against nearly all attacks. Just buy 2 JoaT and you can skip the cursing attack while you're going for Big Money. Yes, it's boring, but effective. It's weaker in Colony games because of the Silver and there are still situations where a thin deck with an obvious engine or a rush is stronger, but if you feel unsure, JoaT is always a good buy, if you stick to it. It combos bad with most cards. But cards that decrease hand size like Warehouse, Fishing Village, Oasis etc. are neat. Fishing Village / Jack of All Trades and Warehouse / Jack of All Trades are on #81 and #82 respectively.
#1 Sea Hag (Seaside) Weighted Average: 97.5% ▲0.9pp / Median: 98.1% ▼1.9pp / Standard Deviation: 7.6% ▲1.1pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (25x) / Lowest Value(s): 85.7% (1x), 67.3% (1x), 55.8% (1x)

Sea Hag is still the #1 and it's even around 1pp better. There is no doubt about it's rank. 25 players voted it first and only 2 players voted it below 85%. It has therefore the third least deviation in this list.

Sea Hag is the next $4 curser. It has a big first-player advantage as you may discard your opponents Sea Hag in turn 3 and because the curse goes on top of the deck, this hurts your opponent even more than all other cursers in the game. At least if he hasn't any good counter, like trashing from top of the deck, like Lookout does. Sea Hag / Lookout is also the #58 ▼9 best opening and the second best Sea Hag opening overall. The biggest problem of Sea Hag is: it hurts your oppenent more, but it doesn't give you any benefit (like most of the other attacks do). So every Sea Hag is later a dead Sea Hag if the Curse pile is empty (and is basically a Curse for itself too). And don't forget to build up your economy as Sea Hag doesn't help you now to accomplish this. That may be the reason that Sea Hag / Fool's Gold is the best Sea Hag opening on #14 because you get a lot of $2-$3 hands for more Fool's Gold and with at least 2 Fool's Gold it's even better as Silver.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 06:13:17 pm by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2013, 04:52:50 pm »
+9

Yay! Scout got first!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2013, 04:53:42 pm »
+8

Sounds like you're having reservations....
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2013, 04:55:36 pm »
+2

Well, Pirate Ship is extremely overranked. I'm not actually convinced its better than Spy or Coppersmith. I can't remember buying it in months. With all the diversity that Dominion brings, there's always something better than Pirate Ship.

On that same note, I'm finding Coppersmith fitting into engines much better than I used to give it credit for. Spy, too. I am having a hard time imagining that Talisman and Treasure Map are on the whole actually more useful than Coppersmith and Spy.

And I'm not sure Bureaucrat belongs down here at all. Worse than Feast? Unlikely.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2013, 05:01:08 pm »
0

I voted Rats last (apparently I'm the only one, haha), and while I might be undervaluing it some, I'm still convinced it's a bottom 5 card; it's just new and shiny and wacky and funny.  While I'll admit it has some good combos and is occasionally important, I have just played so many games now where it effectively has no outcome on the game that I can't understand it scoring so highly.  Well, I'd at least put Navigator above Rats anyway.  The ability to dump an entire upcoming turn is usually better than whatever benefit Rats would give you.  Other than that, no real surprises on this first part of the list.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 05:09:13 pm »
+1

I'm pretty sure rats deserves a better place.

Otherwise, nothing really new : coppersmith underrated as always, and navigator overrated. I really can't get it, it's probably the only dominion card I don't understand after almost 2 years of playing. I never found the reordering useful and the discard option will never be really good for you. I can understand why navigator is higher than scout and thief, but otherwise...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2013, 05:09:46 pm »
0

The card I'm surprised not to see down here is Armory. It's like Talisman: How many $4 and under cards do you want, and how many do you really want on top of deck? Workshop and Ironwork's best use is in Gardens/Silk Road games, and Armory is actually worse there. That means it has to really pick up the slack in other cases you want a cheap card gainer - when you want lots of cheap components and the like, and I'm still not convinced it's much better than IW in those cases.

Pirate Ship is too high. In 2 player, it's awful 95% of the time it's on the board. In 3-4 player, it's still really not that good most of the time (unlike Thief, which scales up in crazy ways).

I had Feast (just) down here and Armory as well. Rats I had above, but I've so little experience with it, I'm happy to believe it belongs down here, and I'd have been happy to believe it were a top half card. My personal experience will hopefully eventually tell me what's correct. Navigator I had just above, I dunno, I can't really defend it, it's still a bad card generally.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2013, 05:09:57 pm »
+2

These are 8 of my bottom 10. The ones where I don't match are:

Cards that don't belong here:

Navigator. I think the description blurb misses the point of Navigator, and a lot of people evaluating the card do as well. It's not great (probably still bottom 15), but it's a very strong opener for games without trashing. If you're not going for an engine, the discard effect is about as good as Cartographer, since you mostly want to skip everything that's not your power card (e.g. Mountebank). Flipping 5 cards gets your newer high-value purchases in play pretty fast. And it's a lot better than Chancellor because you can still use it when your power cards are in the deck and potentially draw closer to them.

Rats. I don't know about this one (haven't played with it in kingdoms with less than 5 DA cards, so maybe it is bad in general), but I have it just outside my bottom 10.

Cards that do:

Feast. Sure I buy Feast. It's not like they hurt you. But they really don't add much. Most of the time, if you had bought a Silver instead, you'd get the same result. The only time it really makes a difference is when Throned, when abusing cost-changers, and with Duke. Overall, it's just a really low-impact card.

Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2013, 05:39:02 pm »
0

So, I'm not arguing that Talisman's in the wrong spot, but does anybody besides me ever use it to accumulate Silver? I mean, let's say you're not building an engine and you have two buys and $6 to spend. It's common wisdom that one Gold is usually better than two Silvers, but is it better than four Silvers?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2013, 05:48:56 pm »
0

So, I'm not arguing that Talisman's in the wrong spot, but does anybody besides me ever use it to accumulate Silver? I mean, let's say you're not building an engine and you have two buys and $6 to spend. It's common wisdom that one Gold is usually better than two Silvers, but is it better than four Silvers?

If I planned on predominantly buying money, I wouldn't want Talisman, though, because I'm probably playing Big Money, and Talisman can't help me with Gold and Victory cards--which are two/thirds of the components I need to purchase (Silver being the other). I can't picture a board where money dominates, but there is no better $4 cost enabler than Talisman.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2013, 05:50:51 pm »
0

So, I'm not arguing that Talisman's in the wrong spot, but does anybody besides me ever use it to accumulate Silver? I mean, let's say you're not building an engine and you have two buys and $6 to spend. It's common wisdom that one Gold is usually better than two Silvers, but is it better than four Silvers?

If I planned on predominantly buying money, I wouldn't want Talisman, though, because I'm probably playing Big Money, and Talisman can't help me with Gold and Victory cards--which are two/thirds of the components I need to purchase (Silver being the other). I can't picture a board where money dominates, but there is no better $4 cost enabler than Talisman.

Hmm, perhaps. What about playing a Wharf/BM or Council Room/BM strategy? Might it not be worth buying a Talisman in order to turn an extra Buy and an extra $3 into two Silvers?

EDIT: There is of course the fact that opening with Talisman will slow down your first Wharf/Council Room purchase.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 05:52:02 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2013, 05:52:51 pm »
+2

Workshop and Ironwork's best use is in Gardens/Silk Road games,

.. It is?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2013, 05:54:38 pm »
+1

Workshop and Ironwork's best use is in Gardens/Silk Road games,

.. It is?

I'd say that's accurate. Ironworks/Gardens is fast enough to beat just about anything, except like King's Court/Bridge or something.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2013, 06:04:02 pm »
+3

I'd say IW and Gardens's BEST uses are in rushes, but that isn't a large part of their value - usually if you want them, it's to pile up engine components, and armory is at least better than workshop there. So I don't think this is super relevant to armory's rank.

Overall, this is the worst feeling I've had about a chunk of cards I've seen ranked by the community in quite a while. My number one question is: Where is Feast? I have it as fourth-worst and honestly, I'm not totally sure it's better than thief. Pirate ship seems high; coppersmith seems low - it's quite good in a number of engines. Talisman might be a touch low too, though I missed that boat as well. I guess this isn't so bad.
Is rats really that good? I wasn't sure if it was worse than scout, and I don't think it is, but... really?

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2013, 06:16:22 pm »
0

Wow, I thought people rated Bureaucrat a lot higher than me...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2013, 06:19:58 pm »
0

Is rats really that good? I wasn't sure if it was worse than scout, and I don't think it is, but... really?

When you have non-terminal trashing (Forager, Junk Dealer, Upgrade, etc.) and your deck is being junked, Rats is clutch. I'm not comfortable making claims about its general utility.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2013, 06:29:38 pm »
0

Man, I'll admit that I don't fully understand Dark Ages cards yet, but I can't understand why Feodum is not in the bottom 5th or so. Maybe it will be one of the next couple, but I'm just not sure about it. I actually think it's a pretty fun card, but I mean, 9 silvers to be worth a duchy? I'm just not sure that it's going to be worth it in most decks. I had it at 47. Other than that, for the most part I had similar cards here, except for I also threw Walled Village wayyyyy low because it is a terrible excuse for a village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2013, 06:31:24 pm »
0

Yuck! I have to disagree with most of this list.

Where is Feast. And, man, I don't think B-Crat belongs on the bottom. I find it very good in BM games. It's not Jack of all Trades, but it has its uses. Coppersmith is decent. Pirate Ship is way overrated. I think Rats are actually fine where they are placed. I think with Rats you actually have to have a really good reason to want to purchase them. In cursing games without any other trasher, they are worth going for, I suppose. Anyway, I feel like the community got it wrong this time with the Bottom $4 cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2013, 06:34:00 pm »
0

Man, I'll admit that I don't fully understand Dark Ages cards yet, but I can't understand why Feodum is not in the bottom 5th or so. Maybe it will be one of the next couple, but I'm just not sure about it. I actually think it's a pretty fun card, but I mean, 9 silvers to be worth a duchy? I'm just not sure that it's going to be worth it in most decks. I had it at 47. Other than that, for the most part I had similar cards here, except for I also threw Walled Village wayyyyy low because it is a terrible excuse for a village.

If you can make a strong silver rush happen, then they are often worth going for. You should also be able to snag a Province or two along the way. Hermit/IW/B-Crat/Armory/Workshop/Jack/Explorer/Trader often make it worth considering going for Feodum.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2013, 06:43:41 pm »
0

I'd say that's accurate. Ironworks/Gardens is fast enough to beat just about anything, except like King's Court/Bridge or something.

My problem with that statement is that you (or rather, Tables) are understating IW and Workshop's utility in every other kind of deck. "Oh, it's not that useful except in Gardens rushes." WW's objection is very true and engines will love Armory's ability to topdeck newly gained cards. Whether that actually makes a difference is yet to be seen.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2013, 06:47:42 pm »
0

I'd say that's accurate. Ironworks/Gardens is fast enough to beat just about anything, except like King's Court/Bridge or something.

My problem with that statement is that you (or rather, Tables) are understating IW and Workshop's utility in every other kind of deck. "Oh, it's not that useful except in Gardens rushes." WW's objection is very true and engines will love Armory's ability to topdeck newly gained cards. Whether that actually makes a difference is yet to be seen.

Maybe it's just semantics, but I don't think it was phrased that Ironworks/Workshop is good in Silk Road/Gardens games, but not other games. Like, if you said Bridge works best with King's Court/Native Village. Obviously there are a bunch of other decks that really love Bridge, but those are the first 2 that come to mind. Ironworks is good in a lot of different places, but it's most killer combo is with Gardens/Silk Road in a rush. I think that's fair to say.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2013, 06:49:53 pm »
0

I think it's a big leap of logic to go from 'their main use is in rushes' to 'The card is pretty worthless elsewhere'. I don't use IW/Workshop an awful lot, but I do sometimes use it for engines and the like. But the only reason Workshop isn't, like, Develop level niche is because it's good in those rush games.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2013, 06:52:55 pm »
0

I think it's a big leap of logic to go from 'their main use is in rushes' to 'The card is pretty worthless elsewhere'.
The point is you've already taken too far a leap in your first statement. "Their best use is in rushes." does not imply that "Their main use is in rushes."

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2013, 07:00:15 pm »
0

Workshop is barely better than Develop on the whole, anyway.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2013, 07:04:59 pm »
0

"Their best use is in rushes" is more accurate than "Their main use is in rushes"... yeah. There are a million other things to use IW/Workshop for (well, Ironworks way way more than Workshop).

Workshop is barely better than Develop on the whole, anyway.

Agreed.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2013, 07:35:05 pm »
0

I've actually bought Armory to get engine components in a fair number of games. It's topdecking aspect can really be used to your advantage with other Villages or draw cards. Play a village, play Armory, play another village and draw the card you just gained. But, in VP rush games, Armory is much weaker than even Workshop.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2013, 07:37:04 pm »
+1

Procession an Armory to topdeck a Procession and an Armory, while gaining a $5 action  ::)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2013, 08:19:21 pm »
+1

Thoughts on Bottom 10:

Where is Feast?  It simply isn't that good of a card, and while it adds a "touch" of certainty of hitting 5 turn 3/4, silver/silver already has really good odds of doing this.

Why isn't Rats in the Bottom 3?  It has its uses (namely Apprentice and Upgrade), but man it is sooo much worse than say, Coppersmith.

Why isn't Scout beating Thief?  Scout is hardly a good card (read: it isn't a good card), but it's better than Thief minimum, and I'd venture (ha!) to say it's better than Rats.  It's actually a solid card if you are going to be adding green early or can take advantage of the reordering.  Sure, it's bad in BM or many engines (read: it's downright awful) but not all games are BM or simple engines.  A lot of complex engines can be helped by a Scout.

Why isn't Bureaucrat beating Pirate Ship? (read: Bureaucrat shouldn't be in the bottom 10, and Pirate Ship should be bottom 5 or 6)  Both attacks are unreliable in 2P, but honestly the Bureaucrat attack is actually pretty nasty at times, especially early.  Sure, in 4P games with no virtual money Pirate Ship will be good.  But how many games are 4P with no virtual money?

Lastly, why is Coppersmith on here?  I'll grant it's awful if you are trashing all your coppers, but a lot of boards have engine potential, but without trashing.  Any deck where you can draw your deck and don't trash your opening coppers, it is a terminal +$7!  What decks are these?  Good Tac decks, Wharf decks, any board with KC, Village-Torturer, etc.  I think it should be a minimum of 10 spots higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2013, 08:37:46 pm »
+1

Thief is beating scout because of multiplayer. It gets much better in 4p, whereas scout seems about the same. Maybe it should be even better because of that? Duno.

Rats is very situational. It has no general-purpose use, but it does have a few combos, and I haven't really got a good handle of how frequent they are or how good they are. No idea whether it's ranked right.

Bureaucrat is probably too low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2013, 08:40:35 pm »
0

The interesting thing with Rats I think is, a lot of the time, it's a net negative to you to actually play for basically the entire game, which is pretty rare for a card (I can't think of any other that I could say that about). It also rarely seems to ever be ridiculously good. But it's a pretty decent card a reasonable amount of time for your upgraders.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2013, 09:33:29 pm »
0

So everyone agrees that feast is too high? Where are the silent people who voted it higher?

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2013, 09:40:12 pm »
0

Yeah I put it, like, 12th. Getting to $5 early really is just that important.

[/poeslaw]
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2013, 09:56:33 pm »
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It looks like I had it 39. That was a mistake.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2013, 10:16:06 pm »
0

Looks like I had it at 40. Also a mistake

Looking back at my lists, I think I mostly still agree with where I put stuff except for Dark Ages cards and basically this section :P
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2013, 11:31:39 pm »
+1

Thief can actually wreck opponent decks, so it can be really good in some kingdoms.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2013, 11:38:52 pm »
0

Why isn't Scout beating Thief?  Scout is hardly a good card (read: it isn't a good card), but it's better than Thief minimum, and I'd venture (ha!) to say it's better than Rats.  It's actually a solid card if you are going to be adding green early or can take advantage of the reordering.  Sure, it's bad in BM or many engines (read: it's downright awful) but not all games are BM or simple engines.  A lot of complex engines can be helped by a Scout.

Ftl covered this, but yeah, three and four player games. Thief becomes something of a mediocre card in three and four player games, especially cursing affairs, where you're actually desperate to hold on to Copper just to scrape up some green. It's similar to Pirate Ship, which is only slightly less unplayable in two player games, and significantly better in three and four player games. (I do think Pirate Ship was considerably overranked on this list.)

If we're only talking two player... even I may be tempted to put Scout ahead of Thief. It would be a hard call. Thief is really useful in the ONE case where your idiot plays Chapel/Big Money. And also with Ill-Gotten Gains. And now and then, other times. Scout, on the other hand, is okay in Scrying Pool decks (though literally any other non-terminal card is better, including Spy), does combo decently with Wishing Well, and can occasionally ease the collapse of a deck that has greened far beyond the usual amount, maybe because of Dukes or Silk Roads. (Contrary to popular belief, Scout doesn't work particularly well with Crossroads, which out-modes it in every conceivable way.)

But I ranked cards giving at least some weight to three and four player games, in which case, I am pleased to see Scout get what it deserves once again.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2013, 11:45:07 pm »
0

I have played IRL with Rats a number of times.  It does a good job of getting rid of Coppers/Estates as long as you have another trasher to get rid of the Rats.  (I love Hermit with it.)  And when you trash it, it lets you draw another card, which is a nice bonus.

In 2-player games, I have come to the point where I just totally ignore Thief and Spy if they are on the board.  I don't find them to be worth my money or time.  I admit that Rats is still new and shiny, but as long as there is a way to get rid of the Rats, I would much rather buy it than the other two.  Perhaps Coppersmith should be above it, and possibly Navigator, but in general, I think it is about where it should be for now until everyone has more experience with it.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2013, 12:21:27 am »
+1

If we're only talking two player... even I may be tempted to put Scout ahead of Thief. It would be a hard call. Thief is really useful in the ONE case where your idiot plays Chapel/Big Money. And also with Ill-Gotten Gains. And now and then, other times.

Thief is commonly one strong reason to go engine over money.

To clarify, in this particular matchup (engine vs. money) I think it's stronger than a card like Saboteur, since Saboteur has the drawback of hitting their points and converting it to money with which they can use to buy their points back, whereas Thief can kill the opponent's economy past the point of recovery if he ever starts to green.

On an unrelated note, Spy also tends to be a card that I tend to ignore, but it's definitely a nice addition to engine decks because the attack is moderately strong late in the game if you can play enough every turn to topdeck a poor card. It tends to be something that I pick up with spare buys/gains more than anything else.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 12:26:42 am by dondon151 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2013, 01:03:32 am »
0

Man, I'll admit that I don't fully understand Dark Ages cards yet, but I can't understand why Feodum is not in the bottom 5th or so. Maybe it will be one of the next couple, but I'm just not sure about it. I actually think it's a pretty fun card, but I mean, 9 silvers to be worth a duchy? I'm just not sure that it's going to be worth it in most decks. I had it at 47. Other than that, for the most part I had similar cards here, except for I also threw Walled Village wayyyyy low because it is a terrible excuse for a village.
Feodum can be a beast with silver gainers and +buy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2013, 04:34:12 am »
0

Armory is at the same level as ironworks IMO, because the topdeck effect can be very strong (with conspirator for example).
Yeah I put it, like, 12th. Getting to $5 early really is just that important.
+1

Man, I'll admit that I don't fully understand Dark Ages cards yet, but I can't understand why Feodum is not in the bottom 5th or so. Maybe it will be one of the next couple, but I'm just not sure about it. I actually think it's a pretty fun card, but I mean, 9 silvers to be worth a duchy? I'm just not sure that it's going to be worth it in most decks. I had it at 47. Other than that, for the most part I had similar cards here, except for I also threw Walled Village wayyyyy low because it is a terrible excuse for a village.
Feodum can be a beast with silver gainers and +buy.

I actually think feodum is the most powerful alternative VP card of the game, because of its flexibility. Even with no silver gainers, feodum can be very powerful :
- To trash early (like in chapel games)
- To trash later for the money (you play with apprentice, you draw your deck each turn but don't have enough for double/triple province every turn...)
- In all games where your deck is flooded by silvers, you can play an hybrid province/feodum strat (feodums worth 4, sometimes even 5 points easily). For example, you can play Trader + feodum, trashing some feodums to get even more silvers and at the same time taking provinces (can work with develop, too).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2013, 06:21:55 am »
0

:O how did  Pirate Ship get ranked above Navigator?!?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2013, 08:06:55 am »
+3

Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

This. This times 100. Either people are underranking Woodcutter or overranking Nomad Camp, because these two cards aren't actually all that different.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2013, 09:29:12 am »
0

If we're only talking two player... even I may be tempted to put Scout ahead of Thief. It would be a hard call. Thief is really useful in the ONE case where your idiot plays Chapel/Big Money. And also with Ill-Gotten Gains. And now and then, other times.

Thief is commonly one strong reason to go engine over money.

To clarify, in this particular matchup (engine vs. money) I think it's stronger than a card like Saboteur, since Saboteur has the drawback of hitting their points and converting it to money with which they can use to buy their points back, whereas Thief can kill the opponent's economy past the point of recovery if he ever starts to green.

On an unrelated note, Spy also tends to be a card that I tend to ignore, but it's definitely a nice addition to engine decks because the attack is moderately strong late in the game if you can play enough every turn to topdeck a poor card. It tends to be something that I pick up with spare buys/gains more than anything else.

The thief attack scales very much with how often you can play it. Whereas playing a curser is about equally as good the first, 4th, and 8th time you do it (technically speaking, cursing could have diminishing returns, since each additional curse lowers their good card density slightly less), the first few thief attacks do minimal damage, or even help your opponent by getting rid of bad treasures.  However, if you can play thief more often than they can buy treasure, you will end up breaking them.  I don't know much about 3+p games, but I imagine that if you have 2 people thieving, their attacks should have more synergy than multiple people cursing.
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Piemaster

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2013, 11:07:39 am »
0

So far, five people have complained that Pirate Ship is way overrated.  I checked all their Council Room pages and none of them really play anything other than two player.

Just sayin' :)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 11:09:50 am by Piemaster »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2013, 11:37:30 am »
+2

So far, five people have complained that Pirate Ship is way overrated.  I checked all their Council Room pages and none of them really play anything other than two player.

Just sayin' :)

I play all my three and four players game IRL.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2013, 12:21:12 pm »
+4

Lastly, why is Coppersmith on here?  I'll grant it's awful if you are trashing all your coppers, but a lot of boards have engine potential, but without trashing.  Any deck where you can draw your deck and don't trash your opening coppers, it is a terminal +$7!  What decks are these?  Good Tac decks, Wharf decks, any board with KC, Village-Torturer, etc.  I think it should be a minimum of 10 spots higher.

I think cards that are good for these kinds of decks are generally underrated. I feel like people tend to think of 2 kinds of strategies:
1. Only 1-2 different actions and lots of money
2. Games where you trash everything and have nothing but actions and maybe Gold.

But there's a lot of stuff in between where Coppersmith or Shanty Town or Workshop or Develop are good cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2013, 01:28:01 pm »
0

I think I've played the DA presets too much in real life. It makes me feel like rats are a very good card, but I think its just because the presets put it with good combos like apprentice and remodel.

Also its awesome against Knights or other trashers.

But yeah, this is probably biased by the presets. Also by the fact that it is a fun card. It is almost useless without a trash for benefit card. I'd definitely put pirate ship lower than it, but that's more a function of pirate ship...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2013, 01:35:28 pm »
+10

So far, five people have complained that Pirate Ship is way overrated.  I checked all their Council Room pages and none of them really play anything other than two player.

Just sayin' :)
Speaking as someone who has played thousands of 3- and 4-player games, Pirate Ship is overrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2013, 01:50:10 pm »
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The smack down has been laid.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2013, 03:02:04 pm »
0

Lastly, why is Coppersmith on here?  I'll grant it's awful if you are trashing all your coppers, but a lot of boards have engine potential, but without trashing.  Any deck where you can draw your deck and don't trash your opening coppers, it is a terminal +$7!  What decks are these?  Good Tac decks, Wharf decks, any board with KC, Village-Torturer, etc.  I think it should be a minimum of 10 spots higher.

I think cards that are good for these kinds of decks are generally underrated. I feel like people tend to think of 2 kinds of strategies:
1. Only 1-2 different actions and lots of money
2. Games where you trash everything and have nothing but actions and maybe Gold.

But there's a lot of stuff in between where Coppersmith or Shanty Town or Workshop or Develop are good cards.

The problem I have with Coppersmith is that it's a kind of self-nombo.  If you play it with only one Copper, it's obviously awful.  If you play it with two Copper, then it's a terminal silver, which is still pretty bad.  If you play it with three copper, then it's a terminal gold, now I'm interested.  But you have to ask yourself how often will you be able to play it with three or more copper?  You only start with seven copper and on most boards you don't buy any more, so even if there is no trashing, three copper is usually half your deck.  So to make Coppersmith something other than bad, you need to reliably draw half your deck each turn whilst still having an action spare.  How often can you reliably do this in games where you won't be trashing any of your copper?

Of course, I'm not saying it's useless.  There will be boards where you will be buying Copper or gaining them in other ways.  And there will be games where you 'go off' with a large deck in one mega-turn using something like Apprentice or Madman and then use Coppersmith as a finisher.  Great, no problem with that.  So at the end of the day you're looking at a card that is usually useless, but on the right board can be good.  Cards like that deserve to be towards the bottom of the list, because nearly every card can be good on the right board.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2013, 03:13:41 pm »
+2

Lastly, why is Coppersmith on here?  I'll grant it's awful if you are trashing all your coppers, but a lot of boards have engine potential, but without trashing.  Any deck where you can draw your deck and don't trash your opening coppers, it is a terminal +$7!  What decks are these?  Good Tac decks, Wharf decks, any board with KC, Village-Torturer, etc.  I think it should be a minimum of 10 spots higher.

I think cards that are good for these kinds of decks are generally underrated. I feel like people tend to think of 2 kinds of strategies:
1. Only 1-2 different actions and lots of money
2. Games where you trash everything and have nothing but actions and maybe Gold.

But there's a lot of stuff in between where Coppersmith or Shanty Town or Workshop or Develop are good cards.

The problem I have with Coppersmith is that it's a kind of self-nombo.  If you play it with only one Copper, it's obviously awful.  If you play it with two Copper, then it's a terminal silver, which is still pretty bad.  If you play it with three copper, then it's a terminal gold, now I'm interested.  But you have to ask yourself how often will you be able to play it with three or more copper?  You only start with seven copper and on most boards you don't buy any more, so even if there is no trashing, three copper is usually half your deck.  So to make Coppersmith something other than bad, you need to reliably draw half your deck each turn whilst still having an action spare.  How often can you reliably do this in games where you won't be trashing any of your copper?
I think his point is that this happens a lot more often than people think (or you can re-buy copper). And he's right.

Quote
Of course, I'm not saying it's useless.  There will be boards where you will be buying Copper or gaining them in other ways.  And there will be games where you 'go off' with a large deck in one mega-turn using something like Apprentice or Madman and then use Coppersmith as a finisher.  Great, no problem with that.  So at the end of the day you're looking at a card that is usually useless, but on the right board can be good.  Cards like that deserve to be towards the bottom of the list, because nearly every card can be good on the right board.
Well, towards the bottom perhaps, but Coppersmith is actually great in the right situations, whereas there's several other cards here that are only good, and some which max out at 'usable' (I'm looking at scout here)

dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2013, 03:17:14 pm »
0

Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

Yeah, actually, this is puzzling to me, too. Nomad Camp seems so shiny! But it's really just Woodcutter. Not sure why it appears that way to me.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2013, 03:23:32 pm »
0

So, I'm not arguing that Talisman's in the wrong spot, but does anybody besides me ever use it to accumulate Silver? I mean, let's say you're not building an engine and you have two buys and $6 to spend. It's common wisdom that one Gold is usually better than two Silvers, but is it better than four Silvers?

If I planned on predominantly buying money, I wouldn't want Talisman, though, because I'm probably playing Big Money, and Talisman can't help me with Gold and Victory cards--which are two/thirds of the components I need to purchase (Silver being the other). I can't picture a board where money dominates, but there is no better $4 cost enabler than Talisman.

Hmm, perhaps. What about playing a Wharf/BM or Council Room/BM strategy? Might it not be worth buying a Talisman in order to turn an extra Buy and an extra $3 into two Silvers?

EDIT: There is of course the fact that opening with Talisman will slow down your first Wharf/Council Room purchase.

Talisman seems to be a very good Feodum enabler.  I believe I have a video of me emptying out the Silver pile in a Feodum/Talisman game.

Re: everything else:  Rats is underranked, but not by too much.  It's not a standalone card, which definitely hurts it.  I think Pirate Ship is well-placed.  I would argue that it's better than Noble Brigand, since there isn't any tennis going on with Pirate Ship, but it's certainly not the best $4 Attack.  Bureaucrat is underranked - it's a Silver topdecker, for fuck's sake - another nice Feodum enabler.  Everything else I'd say is more or less fairly ranked.

Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

Yeah, actually, this is puzzling to me, too. Nomad Camp seems so shiny! But it's really just Woodcutter. Not sure why it appears that way to me.

I dunno what to tell you.  Woodcutter is not a bad card - there are just better cards.  And Nomad Camp allows for 4/4, 4/5 and 4/2/2 openings.  And Nomad Camp could be rather fantastic in Gardens games - once in the endgame, you know you're not going to be shuffling again, so getting that +Buy right on top of your deck is perfect.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 03:26:54 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2013, 04:12:14 pm »
+1

I dunno what to tell you.  Woodcutter is not a bad card - there are just better cards.  And Nomad Camp allows for 4/4, 4/5 and 4/2/2 openings.  And Nomad Camp could be rather fantastic in Gardens games - once in the endgame, you know you're not going to be shuffling again, so getting that +Buy right on top of your deck is perfect.

Actually, if you consider Nomad Camp to be Woodcutter after it's initial topdecking, then you're really getting 3/4, 3/5, or 3/2/2 openings (I know there are edge cases like TFB, but they're pretty safe to ignore here). Plus, the $3 you get is one of the worst in the game. Sure, there are a few combos, but nothing that great.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2013, 04:24:27 pm »
0

Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

Yeah, actually, this is puzzling to me, too. Nomad Camp seems so shiny! But it's really just Woodcutter. Not sure why it appears that way to me.

I dunno what to tell you.  Woodcutter is not a bad card - there are just better cards.  And Nomad Camp allows for 4/4, 4/5 and 4/2/2 openings.  And Nomad Camp could be rather fantastic in Gardens games - once in the endgame, you know you're not going to be shuffling again, so getting that +Buy right on top of your deck is perfect.

I guess what I'm asking is: How many kingdoms are there where you should go for Nomad Camp, but you shouldn't go for Woodcutter if it was there instead? I'm betting it's not very many.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2013, 04:54:32 pm »
0

Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

Yeah, actually, this is puzzling to me, too. Nomad Camp seems so shiny! But it's really just Woodcutter. Not sure why it appears that way to me.

I dunno what to tell you.  Woodcutter is not a bad card - there are just better cards.  And Nomad Camp allows for 4/4, 4/5 and 4/2/2 openings.  And Nomad Camp could be rather fantastic in Gardens games - once in the endgame, you know you're not going to be shuffling again, so getting that +Buy right on top of your deck is perfect.

I guess what I'm asking is: How many kingdoms are there where you should go for Nomad Camp, but you shouldn't go for Woodcutter if it was there instead? I'm betting it's not very many.

I'd say it's a fair amount of the time. Maybe not in an most engines, but in a decks where it takes you several turns to reach a reshuffle, yeah.

You can buy Nomad camp early on for use as a Woodcutter, and that's fine. But one of the things you can do with Nomad Camp that you can't do with Woodcutter is to buy it opportunistically. If you're in full-on greening mode and you're trying to delay reshuffles, Nomad Camp can be useful. If I've spent most of the shuffle buying Victory cards and I've got $4 this hand, I'm almost certainly going to want a Nomad Camp over an Estate.

There are also niche uses, of course. If I just used Develop to put a Silver and a Mystic on my deck (for example), buying a Nomad Camp gives me an even better shot at a Province next turn.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2013, 07:29:20 pm »
+1

This... is not a particularly good list.  I mean, a lot of these cards do belong around here, but the order is pretty much all wrong.

I continue to think Scout is probably a better card than Thief; granted 2p bias plays a part, but I've never seen Thief work particularly well in my 3 or 4 player games either.  Glad I've convinced Robz of its utility in Scrying Pool games at least (and using Scout as an SP helper is definitely my favorite use of the card).

Coppersmith is scandalously low.  It is very often useless, but just that good in low-trash engine games where it's frequently up to $7 cash in the endgame.  It absolutely deserves to be above most of these cards.  I was considering a Coppersmith article at some point and on the off-chance I get back into posting more it may yet happen.

Spy is also way too low; yeah, it's on the weak end, but it's a better lubricant than you think in engine decks with mediocre draw (cantrip engines like Conspirator and Peddler come to mind in particular).  It gets slagged on so much because it basically requires engine to be good, and it's in base, which is a bad setup for it, and DXV doesn't like the concept so much anymore.  And, sure, it's mediocre.  But so many of the bad $4s, like Scout and Thief and Pirate Ship and Treasure Map, are just so actively bad, that a card that is basically the $4 price point equivalent of Pearl Diver (cantrip that might help with future draw) is obviously not Bottom 5 in my mind.  I think people would think much more highly of it if Spy was an Intrigue card, because there are some real synergies there, and it would be more on-theme.

Oh, yeah, Pirate Ship and Treasure Map.  They blow chunks.  Talisman is also bad, but the writeup seems to miss the best aspect of Talisman, which is that you can use it to soak up the Peddler stack.

Navigator deserves better, and the B-crat probably does as well.  I'd put Feast down here for sure at least.  I'm undecided on Nomad Camp, but do think it deserves a relatively better rank than Woodcutter- not because the top-decking is so good, but because the rest of the bad $4s are much worse than the bad $3s.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 07:31:05 pm by chwhite »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2013, 09:28:41 pm »
0

I disagree with many of your sentiments, chwhite, though not very strongly. I think it's disingenuous to say that Pirate Ship and Treasure Map "blow chunks" and Coppersmith doesn't when there's roughly the same percentage of kingdoms where each of them are fairly excellent, but terrible otherwise. In engine games, TM is basically spending $8 to get $24 in value. PS strongly indicates engine when the alternate option is money. Thief too, though it's helps your deck to a much smaller degree relative to PS, and it's good in slogs. Compared to being worth $7 in a small subset of kingdoms, these other bad $4 cards seem pretty competitive with Coppersmith...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2013, 09:43:15 pm »
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The only card I'd say is out of place by a lot is bureaucrat. I'm pretty sure I ranked it like seven spots ahead.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2013, 02:09:15 am »
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The card I'm surprised not to see down here is Armory. It's like Talisman: How many $4 and under cards do you want, and how many do you really want on top of deck? Workshop and Ironwork's best use is in Gardens/Silk Road games, and Armory is actually worse there. That means it has to really pick up the slack in other cases you want a cheap card gainer - when you want lots of cheap components and the like, and I'm still not convinced it's much better than IW in those cases.

WHAT?
Armory is by far the best gainer for engines. Top-deck an additional village? Or whatever you need at the time to kickstart your engine?
Add highway or similar cards and it gets awesome - then throw in Kings Court and it just gets crazy.
I love the endless turns where you just keep top-decking additional Kings Courts and Armories and drawers. *drool*
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2013, 02:53:36 am »
+5

Armory is nice and all, and I like its top-decking ability, but it just doesn't compete with IW's flexibility and the fact that it is most often non-terminal. But, you are right, there is an advantage to being able to top-deck the cards you just gained and play them on the same turn. Still, IW is better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2013, 04:58:17 am »
0

WHAT?
Armory is by far the best gainer for engines. Top-deck an additional village? Or whatever you need at the time to kickstart your engine?
Add highway or similar cards and it gets awesome - then throw in Kings Court and it just gets crazy.
I love the endless turns where you just keep top-decking additional Kings Courts and Armories and drawers. *drool*
This. It's like a Band of Misfits for the next turn, except it costs the action and the card twice (which is pretty bad) and it gains you the card permanently (which is pretty good).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2013, 02:19:42 pm »
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Nomad Camp. Woodcutter is rated as the second-worst $3 card, yet somehow Nomad Camp, which is basically the same card is not in the bottom TEN $4 cards? I don't get it. You get the on-gain effect one time, which I guess is useful when you're trying to mass $2 cards asap (i.e. Fool's Gold), and can maybe do cute things with gain-then-draw. But a lot of the time I'd actually rather NOT have the on-buy effect, since when you add your +buy card to an engine, you don't want it in your starting 5 cards.

Yeah, actually, this is puzzling to me, too. Nomad Camp seems so shiny! But it's really just Woodcutter. Not sure why it appears that way to me.

I think this is just an artifact of ranking cards according to cost.  Nomad Camp is at least as bad as Woodcutter, but it so happens that there are more bad $4 cards than there are bad $3 cards, so Nomad Camp ends up further from the bottom.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2013, 03:10:09 pm »
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Oh, let's start a ranking vs rating debate.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2013, 06:23:29 pm »
+1

Any word on when we'll see the rest of the list?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2013, 09:44:46 am »
0

Having kinda thought about it a little, I think the real reason Nomad Camp is that much better than Woodcutter despite being the same is the opening 4 turns. Woodcutter is really bad early most of the time, because extra buy just isn't helpful when you're hitting $3-6. Nomad Camp's top decking lets you get a sudden early boost in economy, and hopefully get to key $5's and $6's early. There's the obvious case of opening 4/3, where Nomad Camp gives you a 40% chance of getting to $5 on turn 4. But also hitting $4 on turn 3, Nomad Camp significantly raises the chances of getting $5 or $6 next turn (I can't be bothered to do the maths on it though). I joked earlier about Feast being awesome for getting to $5, but honestly, getting to $5's and $6's is pretty significant, and Nomad Camp helps you do it quickly while staying around to be useful.
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But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2013, 09:52:11 am »
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Any word on when we'll see the rest of the list?

Part II comes probably tomorrow.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2013, 01:01:37 pm »
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Oh, let's start a ranking vs rating debate.

It'll be like "Warehouse means that Cellar sucks" 2.0.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2013, 01:15:15 pm »
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Oh, let's start a ranking vs rating debate.

It'll be like "Warehouse means that Cellar sucks" 2.0.

Please not that again.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2013, 02:06:40 pm »
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Yeah, we already determined that it's true before.

[/trolling]
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2013, 03:02:16 pm »
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You can buy Nomad camp early on for use as a Woodcutter, and that's fine. But one of the things you can do with Nomad Camp that you can't do with Woodcutter is to buy it opportunistically. If you're in full-on greening mode and you're trying to delay reshuffles, Nomad Camp can be useful. If I've spent most of the shuffle buying Victory cards and I've got $4 this hand, I'm almost certainly going to want a Nomad Camp over an Estate.

Problem here is that buying a Nomad Camp will only cause a delay in the shuffle about 1/5 of the time...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2013, 04:09:35 pm »
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You can buy Nomad camp early on for use as a Woodcutter, and that's fine. But one of the things you can do with Nomad Camp that you can't do with Woodcutter is to buy it opportunistically. If you're in full-on greening mode and you're trying to delay reshuffles, Nomad Camp can be useful. If I've spent most of the shuffle buying Victory cards and I've got $4 this hand, I'm almost certainly going to want a Nomad Camp over an Estate.

Problem here is that buying a Nomad Camp will only cause a delay in the shuffle about 1/5 of the time...

And the other 4/5 of the time you'll have one more this-shuffle card and one less next-shuffle card for the hand where you reshuffle. It still helps you.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2013, 03:23:27 pm »
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Feodum is awfully underrated. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see it 15-20 places higher next time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2013, 03:23:45 pm »
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This list continues to disappoint me! Feast, Remodel, Trader, and Feodum all seem too high, and Noble Brigand and Irownworks both seem too low. I also don't understand how walled village is this much lower than the other villages, but that's not such an enormous thing.

I'm also not sure I agree with all the descriptions.
Feast can also be used with cost-reducers sometimes. But the big thing there is the openings - the chance that you get a 5 off feast is very marginally better than off a silver; the chance of getting two is slightly better than that. And you almost never want to use it to gain duchies - it's a big trap of the card actually - except in duke games, where it's good for dukes as well.
Nomad camp has some weird other uses, though to be fair they're quite obscure.
Noble Brigand you're selling all wrong though. It absolutely devours all but the very very strongest big money strtegies alive. I mean, the only BM that curvives it is like wharf, mirrors, cursers (though that's really a different story), and like 1 or 2 others. Okay, that doesn't make it a world-beater, but... It's probably also worth a mention that the on-buy attack gets through reactions and lighthouses.
Ironworks, I have issues with the downplaying-its-goodness commentary, but that is in line with the rank it got, so that's not a huge deal. But you don't really want to ironworks ironworks very often, except in rushes (silk road, gardens, etc.). Also, it's really not the extra card that helps very much there, I don't think.
Trader for big money is... okay, but not really all that hot.
Quarry/Ambassador is that high, huh? This isn't a gripe, I just find that interesting.
Your blurb on Feodum implies that gardens and SR are big in rushes, and while you can rush them, their main uses are definitively elsewhere.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2013, 03:40:00 pm »
0

Your blurb on Feodum implies that gardens and SR are big in rushes, and while you can rush them, their main uses are definitively elsewhere.

Hm, really? I'll give that Silk Road is a good VP source in a slog, but I haven't seen Gardens used well in a slog yet. It feels like it would power up too slowly.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2013, 03:45:16 pm »
0

Your blurb on Feodum implies that gardens and SR are big in rushes, and while you can rush them, their main uses are definitively elsewhere.

Hm, really? I'll give that Silk Road is a good VP source in a slog, but I haven't seen Gardens used well in a slog yet. It feels like it would power up too slowly.
Well, Gardens can work out okay in slogs - though it's definitely not a reason to slog it up all by itself; with help though... More though, I am thinking of engines. Gardens is quite a fine card for lots of engines.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2013, 03:47:14 pm »
+1

I'm also not sure I agree with all the descriptions.
So, let me clarify.

Feast can also be used with cost-reducers sometimes. But the big thing there is the openings - the chance that you get a 5 off feast is very marginally better than off a silver; the chance of getting two is slightly better than that. And you almost never want to use it to gain duchies - it's a big trap of the card actually - except in duke games, where it's good for dukes as well.
I never really experienced Feast with cost reducers. If you have the cost reducers, Feast costs also less when you buy it, so I can't see the big value. I think that's a big edge case that doesn't need to be mentioned. The rest seems pretty similar to that what I said (or what I intended to say). Feast is great if you want a $5 and don't necessarily want the Silver. And I did say that the Duchy gain is good in Duke games, not sure what you disagree with me. It can also be good in Ill-Gotten-Gains rushes for example.

Nomad camp has some weird other uses, though to be fair they're quite obscure.
What do you mean here?

Noble Brigand you're selling all wrong though. It absolutely devours all but the very very strongest big money strtegies alive. I mean, the only BM that curvives it is like wharf, mirrors, cursers (though that's really a different story), and like 1 or 2 others. Okay, that doesn't make it a world-beater, but... It's probably also worth a mention that the on-buy attack gets through reactions and lighthouses.
I know you like Noble Brigand a lot and you're pretty good in those Big Money games and I'm not, but my experience is that Noble Brigand+BM is good but not top-level. I just did a quick look and most of the 40+ level players rated it even lower. Not saying that they are right, but I think you're overvaluing a little bit.

Ironworks, I have issues with the downplaying-its-goodness commentary, but that is in line with the rank it got, so that's not a huge deal. But you don't really want to ironworks ironworks very often, except in rushes (silk road, gardens, etc.). Also, it's really not the extra card that helps very much there, I don't think.
Not sure what you mean with "downplaying-its-goodness". I agree, you don't want to Ironworks an Ironworks that often, I just want to show that you gain 2 cards from 2 Ironworks in a turn without having a village, I see now that this was misleading.

Trader for big money is... okay, but not really all that hot.
I agree, that it's not the best BM enabler, but in 3-4 player games where you can ignore cursers more easily, it's not that bad because you can easily get 2-3 Silvers a turn and a Big Money strategy is viable. And I think with Mountebank getting 2-3 Traders early on and go BM will win easily.

Quarry/Ambassador is that high, huh? This isn't a gripe, I just find that interesting.
You basically open Gold/Ambassador because when you open Ambassador you're likely building an engine, right?

Your blurb on Feodum implies that gardens and SR are big in rushes, and while you can rush them, their main uses are definitively elsewhere.
I'm still not sure how Feodum compares with Gardens and Silk Road, but it's pretty good with the right support, similarly as Gardens and Silk Road are good with the right support. So I disagree with you that it is too high. I think it's even too low, maybe not much, but a little bit. And I wasn't saying that Gardens and Silk Roads are mainly rushes, of course they can also be useful in slogs and other scenarios, but when going for them is viable (no matter if slog or rush or whatever) the game ends on 3-piles in most of the cases, right? What I was saying that this is harder to achieve with Feodum. But it plays differently, as you can empty the Feoda with a high Silver density from let's say Jack of All Trades and still can buy Provinces later on while you keep getting Silvers, it's like a Rush/Slog/Big Money mix where you first rush the Feoda, then go for Big Money and Provinces.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #82 on: January 30, 2013, 03:52:34 pm »
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Quote from: Qvist
I'm still not sure how Feodum compares with Gardens and Silk Road, but it's pretty good with the right support, similarly as Gardens and Silk Road are good with the right support. So I disagree with you that it is too high. I think it's even too low, maybe not much, but a little bit. And I wasn't saying that Gardens and Silk Roads are mainly rushes, of course they can also be useful in slogs and other scenarios, but when going for them is viable (no matter if slog or rush or whatever) the game ends on 3-piles in most of the cases, right? What I was saying that this is harder to achieve with Feodum. But it plays differently, as you can empty the Feoda with a high Silver density from let's say Jack of All Trades and still can buy Provinces later on while you keep getting Silvers, it's like a Rush/Slog/Big Money mix where you first rush the Feoda, then go for Big Money and Provinces.
+1, I think therefore feodum is more like fairgrounds than gardens. And I'm really serious when I say it's too low by 15-20 places, in all games I played (all expansions mixed) feodum were a superstar (also, do not forget the other use of feodum : buying it only to trash it later for cash)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #83 on: January 30, 2013, 04:04:36 pm »
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Noble Brigand is good for shutting down money strategies, but in that sense it's just like any other attack. It's attack is somewhat marginal in engine vs engine, so it ends up being a card that you just don't buy that much. That makes it a bit hard to rank, but I think it's fine in the neighborhood it's in.

Walled Village continues to be way below the other villages for some unknown reason -- people just don't "like" it I guess...

And I think all the gainers are too low: Armory, Ironworks, and Remodel. But I thought all the gainers were low on the $3 lists too.

I also think Trader is low. The reaction is really good, and even just using it to trash Coppers works when there are no other trashers.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #84 on: January 30, 2013, 04:12:58 pm »
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Walled Village continues to be way below the other villages for some unknown reason -- people just don't "like" it I guess...

I'm guessing because it's less flexible—you might buy Worker's Village or Farming Village or Fortress or Mining Village when you don't need +actions, but need +buy or top-deck filtering or something you can save from the trash or one-shot virtual coin. Walled Village is just a village that's slightly better at being a village, not a village that does something else in addition to being a village.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 04:17:54 pm by AJD »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #85 on: January 30, 2013, 04:18:03 pm »
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Noble Brigand and Irownworks both seem too low.

On Noble Brigand: It has the 6th worst "win-rate with" on CouncilRoom, after Thief, Coppersmith, Pirate Ship, Bureaucrat, Talisman (notice even Scout is slightly higher). Now, I'm not saying that this means Noble Brigand isn't better than this when in the hands of someone who knows how to use it (like yourself), but it seems that in the hands of more average players, it's not so great. That could explain the lower ratings here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #86 on: January 30, 2013, 04:20:38 pm »
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I'm also not sure I agree with all the descriptions.
So, let me clarify.

Feast can also be used with cost-reducers sometimes. But the big thing there is the openings - the chance that you get a 5 off feast is very marginally better than off a silver; the chance of getting two is slightly better than that. And you almost never want to use it to gain duchies - it's a big trap of the card actually - except in duke games, where it's good for dukes as well.
I never really experienced Feast with cost reducers. If you have the cost reducers, Feast costs also less when you buy it, so I can't see the big value. I think that's a big edge case that doesn't need to be mentioned. The rest seems pretty similar to that what I said (or what I intended to say). Feast is great if you want a $5 and don't necessarily want the Silver. And I did say that the Duchy gain is good in Duke games, not sure what you disagree with me. It can also be good in Ill-Gotten-Gains rushes for example.
Sure, it's a bit of an edge case, probably not worth mentioning. The bigger thing is that you are mentioning its use to grab duchies, especially in duke games, but really it's ONLY good to do that in duke games - the way you say it implies its okay in other games, too, just not as good. And I don't find that it is, in fact, very good in IGG 'rushes'.

Quote
Nomad camp has some weird other uses, though to be fair they're quite obscure.
What do you mean here?
I mean really obscure things, which being really obscure, I probably should not have mentioned in the first place. This one isn't a complaint.

Quote
Noble Brigand you're selling all wrong though. It absolutely devours all but the very very strongest big money strtegies alive. I mean, the only BM that curvives it is like wharf, mirrors, cursers (though that's really a different story), and like 1 or 2 others. Okay, that doesn't make it a world-beater, but... It's probably also worth a mention that the on-buy attack gets through reactions and lighthouses.
I know you like Noble Brigand a lot and you're pretty good in those Big Money games and I'm not, but my experience is that Noble Brigand+BM is good but not top-level. I just did a quick look and most of the 40+ level players rated it even lower. Not saying that they are right, but I think you're overvaluing a little bit.
I actually don't like it particularly; I think it is strong. Well, we can disagree here. But I am not saying that NB/BM is top level. I am saying that NB is top level against BM, and it absolutely is. Of course, if your opponent doesn't ever have much silver or gold in his deck, it's terrible, but it can actually have pretty decent impact in games it's never bought in, because it discourages eats big money SO MUCH. Eh, I guess my disagreement here is more with how its strength is perceived more than what you say, similar to the ironworks below.

Quote
Ironworks, I have issues with the downplaying-its-goodness commentary, but that is in line with the rank it got, so that's not a huge deal. But you don't really want to ironworks ironworks very often, except in rushes (silk road, gardens, etc.). Also, it's really not the extra card that helps very much there, I don't think.
Not sure what you mean with "downplaying-its-goodness". I agree, you don't want to Ironworks an Ironworks that often, I just want to show that you gain 2 cards from 2 Ironworks in a turn without having a village, I see now that this was misleading.

Trader for big money is... okay, but not really all that hot.
I agree, that it's not the best BM enabler, but in 3-4 player games where you can ignore cursers more easily, it's not that bad because you can easily get 2-3 Silvers a turn and a Big Money strategy is viable. And I think with Mountebank getting 2-3 Traders early on and go BM will win easily.
Yeah, but this is a different point entirely. As a defense, right on, but my point is that the active trader strategy buying it just to trash and turn stuff into silver, isn't so strong as you're selling - it's very good I presume with feodum, and with gardens and duke, but other than this, not so much - essentially, not for big money by itself. As a defense is a different story though.

Quote
Quarry/Ambassador is that high, huh? This isn't a gripe, I just find that interesting.
You basically open Gold/Ambassador because when you open Ambassador you're likely building an engine, right?
Yeah, but opportunity cost means you're missing out on a second ambassador. It's not that quarry doesn't go well, just specifically as an opener. I mean, I'm not sure how often I would want to open amb/gold. But okay. Interesting.

Quote
Your blurb on Feodum implies that gardens and SR are big in rushes, and while you can rush them, their main uses are definitively elsewhere.
I'm still not sure how Feodum compares with Gardens and Silk Road, but it's pretty good with the right support, similarly as Gardens and Silk Road are good with the right support. So I disagree with you that it is too high. I think it's even too low, maybe not much, but a little bit. And I wasn't saying that Gardens and Silk Roads are mainly rushes, of course they can also be useful in slogs and other scenarios, but when going for them is viable (no matter if slog or rush or whatever) the game ends on 3-piles in most of the cases, right? What I was saying that this is harder to achieve with Feodum. But it plays differently, as you can empty the Feoda with a high Silver density from let's say Jack of All Trades and still can buy Provinces later on while you keep getting Silvers, it's like a Rush/Slog/Big Money mix where you first rush the Feoda, then go for Big Money and Provinces.
But only the slog really NEEDS to end the game in three piles. If you can't end the game on three piles in a slog, or an engine, who cares? You aren't winning that way (well, in an engine you often are, but it's irrelevant). I think you make too big a deal of this - I doubt it matters that much. Having said that, I don't have tons of experience with dark ages and am fully ready to defer to those who do.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #87 on: January 30, 2013, 04:23:03 pm »
+2

Walled Village continues to be way below the other villages for some unknown reason -- people just don't "like" it I guess...

I'm guessing because it's less flexible—you might buy Worker's Village or Farming Village or Fortress or Mining Village when you don't need +actions, but need +buy or top-deck filtering or something you can save from the trash or one-shot virtual coin. Walled Village is just a village that's slightly better at being a village, not a village that does something else in addition to being a village.
Sure, these are great reasons for it to be the lowest $4 village. But really, doesn't most of the value of all of these cards come from just being villages, in which case, why is there that big a gap? That's the question I have.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #88 on: January 30, 2013, 04:57:41 pm »
+1

And I'm really serious when I say it's too low by 15-20 places, in all games I played (all expansions mixed) feodum were a superstar (also, do not forget the other use of feodum : buying it only to trash it later for cash)

And in all games I played, Feodum sucked (except for one with Rebuild where no one contested the Feodum stack), so I'm not inclined to take your opinion very seriously.

When you take a composite strength of Feodum, it's not very strong compared to SR and Gardens. Feodum is nearly worthless in engines because they don't want Silver at all, whereas SRs can be made to be worth ~3 VP if the player builds his deck to sustain the green and Gardens can be worth a lot in engines swimming in +buy (but they can be easily made worth at least 3 VP anyway). It's worthless in rushes because you just can't rush them and get points very quickly because they don't generate points on their own.

So basically your only option is to slog with Feodum and transition into a money strategy. Okay, fine, that's moderately strong. But given that this is your best option with this card, and there are relatively fewer good support cards out there, I can't imagine it being much higher on this list.

Yeah, but opportunity cost means you're missing out on a second ambassador. It's not that quarry doesn't go well, just specifically as an opener. I mean, I'm not sure how often I would want to open amb/gold. But okay. Interesting.

You trade a lot of deck-building tempo opening Amb. On boards with the right $5s, it's probably more important to get them than to really focus on deck thinning with Amb, because you might be able to cycle through a slightly bigger deck anyway and play Amb enough that the ground you give up in Amb tennis early can be made up for later.

Although what I'd really like to see on an Amb/Quarry board are good $3s. Amb/Quarry loses its punch if they collide and you return 2 Coppers (leaving you generally with only effectively $3-4 to spend), so good $3s make up for that.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 05:03:58 pm by dondon151 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #89 on: January 30, 2013, 05:10:45 pm »
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Walled Village continues to be way below the other villages for some unknown reason -- people just don't "like" it I guess...

I'm guessing because it's less flexible—you might buy Worker's Village or Farming Village or Fortress or Mining Village when you don't need +actions, but need +buy or top-deck filtering or something you can save from the trash or one-shot virtual coin. Walled Village is just a village that's slightly better at being a village, not a village that does something else in addition to being a village.
Sure, these are great reasons for it to be the lowest $4 village. But really, doesn't most of the value of all of these cards come from just being villages, in which case, why is there that big a gap? That's the question I have.
I think the gap is there because Walled Village doesn't do anything aside from being a village, and it's better than the vanilla Village only when you didn't need a village. In most engines, I would buy Fishing Village over Walled Village all day. I agree that the gap is too big, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #90 on: January 30, 2013, 05:21:13 pm »
+2

Walled Village continues to be way below the other villages for some unknown reason -- people just don't "like" it I guess...

I'm guessing because it's less flexible—you might buy Worker's Village or Farming Village or Fortress or Mining Village when you don't need +actions, but need +buy or top-deck filtering or something you can save from the trash or one-shot virtual coin. Walled Village is just a village that's slightly better at being a village, not a village that does something else in addition to being a village.
Sure, these are great reasons for it to be the lowest $4 village. But really, doesn't most of the value of all of these cards come from just being villages, in which case, why is there that big a gap? That's the question I have.
I think the gap is there because Walled Village doesn't do anything aside from being a village, and it's better than the vanilla Village only when you didn't need a village. In most engines, I would buy Fishing Village over Walled Village all day. I agree that the gap is too big, though.

So a village you can topdeck repeatedly is terrible (compared to village), but a woodcutter you can topdeck once is good?
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #91 on: January 30, 2013, 05:21:46 pm »
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Walled Village does fill that niche where if you have a bunch of terminals in a fat deck, they won't collide as often.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #92 on: January 30, 2013, 05:32:11 pm »
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So a village you can topdeck repeatedly is terrible (compared to village), but a woodcutter you can topdeck once is good?
No, that's not what I said. A card that is a cantrip you can topdeck or a village you can't topdeck is not very good compared to the third best $3 card. And I think Nomad Camp is overrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #93 on: January 30, 2013, 06:15:02 pm »
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Hmm.  Walled Village/Scavenger/Counting House combo?  A pair of Walled Villages keep topdecking themselves until you reach Scavenger.  Then you play one Walled Village, then Scavenger discarding and topdecking Counting House, then play your second Walled Village to draw your Counting House.

Meh, doesn't sound so strong to me either.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #94 on: January 30, 2013, 06:20:31 pm »
+7

I want to emphasize that whatever disagreements I have, that in no way lessens the amount of respect and appreciation I have for Qvist for organizing, writing, and generally putting this project together, or the voters for voting.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #95 on: January 30, 2013, 07:30:41 pm »
+1

I want to emphasize that whatever disagreements I have, that in no way lessens the amount of respect and appreciation I have for Qvist for organizing, writing, and generally putting this project together, or the voters for voting.

No one is doubting this. Personally, I like a little debate about the cards, it helps me think about them in different ways, which ultimately makes me a better player.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #96 on: January 30, 2013, 09:58:24 pm »
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Walled Village last twice? Wow, that's brutal.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #97 on: January 30, 2013, 10:10:45 pm »
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This is upside down, because that's how I've put it into my comparison spreadsheet (you'd think three best dominion card lists would be enough to teach me, but NOOO)

Feodum - Meh, I don't have enough experience to say better. It doesn't feel out of place, in the lower-middle third.
Quarry - This looks horrifically underrated. I guess I can see why though - it's a card that can be amazing a reasonable amount of time, but is often not worth the buy, but that vaguely defined 'reasonable amount' is the issue. I think it occurs often enough to put the card ~15 places higher - a quarry or two in an engine with good +buy and suddenly you shave turns off of grabbing engine components. But I guess those situations might not occur enough to get the card higher.
Trader - This also looks a little low, but I'm second guessing myself now. It's decent against cursing/ruins attacks, especially in multiplayer and really good with Mountebank - firstly obviously you can turn incoming curses into Silver, and when the curses run out, bam, turn a now pretty bad card into a wad of Silver. But I'm really wondering, asides from that, is it usually worthwhile? Like one good use is turning your Estates into two silvers, that's very nice, but I guess you really need a plan for it beyond that. Eh, I dunno, I had it at 31 but that feels a little high now.
Ironworks - Looks okay, maybe a little high. Gaining $4's... maybe I'm underrating how useful that is, maybe I'm also doing what I used to do with Bishop and opening with it too much when you really want to pick it up later.
Remodel - Maybe a touch high? Dunno.
Walled Village - Eh. No strong feelings. I guess a little low, it's still a village, and has it's own niche in BM type decks.
Noble Brigand - Criminally low. Do people not realise just how good this is in BM games? Even outside of them, it can be good in engines (provided your engine wants treasure of course!) and it's on buy attack is really nice as well.
Armory - I'm not sure, but this also feels high. Gaining and topdecking is nice, but as I've already said, I feel like the best and main use of the gainers is for rushes. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate that.
Nomad Camp - Eh. Could see this going down a little.
Feast - Eh, also could see this going down.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #98 on: January 30, 2013, 10:24:33 pm »
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Armory - I'm not sure, but this also feels high. Gaining and topdecking is nice, but as I've already said, I feel like the best and main use of the gainers is for rushes. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate that.

So, what, the lengths that people go to gain a card and play it in the same turn is nothing more than wasting effort on a cute trick?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #99 on: January 31, 2013, 03:47:01 am »
0

I want to emphasize that whatever disagreements I have, that in no way lessens the amount of respect and appreciation I have for Qvist for organizing, writing, and generally putting this project together, or the voters for voting.

Thanks. And I didn't question that. I just wanted to clarify because as English isn't my first language, I know that some things may be formulated wrong or ambiguous.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #100 on: January 31, 2013, 03:51:19 am »
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Armory - I'm not sure, but this also feels high. Gaining and topdecking is nice, but as I've already said, I feel like the best and main use of the gainers is for rushes. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate that.

So, what, the lengths that people go to gain a card and play it in the same turn is nothing more than wasting effort on a cute trick?

That's something I forgot to mention. Playing a village, playing a Armory to topdeck a $4 like Conspirator and then play another village to draw it and you now have a new activated Conspirator in hand. You could cool tricks with Armory, maybe you even have a Province in hand and topdeck a Tournament, draw it and bam! But it still needs villages...

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #101 on: January 31, 2013, 06:05:24 am »
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Well, any of the Workshop types can also be handy when there are a lot of cheap components for your engine, like with Oasis and Menagerie or something.

If there is only one stack, like Caravan, I'm highly skeptical of buying Workshop for it, but with two such stacks I'm much more inclined.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #102 on: January 31, 2013, 08:04:27 am »
+1

Armory - I'm not sure, but this also feels high. Gaining and topdecking is nice, but as I've already said, I feel like the best and main use of the gainers is for rushes. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate that.

So, what, the lengths that people go to gain a card and play it in the same turn is nothing more than wasting effort on a cute trick?

I never said that, but I rarely see that kind of thing actually happen, it's generally theorycraft.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #103 on: January 31, 2013, 08:13:52 am »
+1

I'm still not entirely sure, but I have the feeling that Feodum is somewhat underrated.

I once had a Feodum game with Squire and some other source of +buy, and while my opponent struggled for the last Provinces, I just (after having emptied the Feodum pile) acquired Silvers en masse, and pushed my score to >100 points. Now, maybe this was an extraordinary board for Feodum (there was no Trader though), and maybe my opponent was not playing optimal, but hey, I don't think that similar circumstances are THAT rare.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #104 on: January 31, 2013, 08:58:29 am »
+1

One thing about Feodum is the silvers help you get provinces as well as the feodums. Only losing the province split 5-3, or even tying it, while also having 3 point feodums is not hard to do
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #105 on: January 31, 2013, 11:04:19 am »
+2

Armory - I'm not sure, but this also feels high. Gaining and topdecking is nice, but as I've already said, I feel like the best and main use of the gainers is for rushes. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate that.

You absolutely need to re-evaluate this. The main use of gainers is to gain engine components. Gaining villages is crucial for +cards/+actions engines when you only have light trashing, since you need to have a good enough village density to not end up with dead turns. Typically these engines involve a good $5 card, which you will buy, and a $4-or-less village you can gain with a Workshop-type. Armory's benefit is nice because it lets you always start your turn with a village if you do the gain last, so it's almost like Workshop+Scheme until the villages run out. But by then, hopefully you've gained enough that you'll be okay. I think Armory is actually a little low on this list currently.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #106 on: January 31, 2013, 12:30:00 pm »
0

Armory - I'm not sure, but this also feels high. Gaining and topdecking is nice, but as I've already said, I feel like the best and main use of the gainers is for rushes. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate that.

You absolutely need to re-evaluate this. The main use of gainers is to gain engine components. Gaining villages is crucial for +cards/+actions engines when you only have light trashing, since you need to have a good enough village density to not end up with dead turns. Typically these engines involve a good $5 card, which you will buy, and a $4-or-less village you can gain with a Workshop-type. Armory's benefit is nice because it lets you always start your turn with a village if you do the gain last, so it's almost like Workshop+Scheme until the villages run out. But by then, hopefully you've gained enough that you'll be okay. I think Armory is actually a little low on this list currently.

Thanks for the clear explanation. Sounds interesting, I might have to try it out next time the pieces seem to fit.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #107 on: February 01, 2013, 09:26:39 am »
+1

So I've come to feel that treasure map, while not quite a "good" card, is under-rated. At least its better than feast/nomad-camp/rats/pirate-ship. Obviously waiting for your maps to line up at random is bad, but I win lots of games by using haven/warehouse/courtyard/tactician to line them up. Also, in a situation where you have heavy trashing, or draw your deck every turn, it can be great. Its hard to beat four gold for two installments of $4 for boosting your economy. I often play games where people forget this option exists.

PS. The jerk in me wants to say that I hope no one actually listens to this post, because there's nothing more fun than beating someone with a "bad" card like treasure map.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #108 on: February 01, 2013, 09:36:20 am »
0

I think Armory is as good as Ironworks. The top-deck thing can be very important, and there is some nice tricks to do. I think Armory is good for engines and combos, while Ironworks is better for alt vp.

Also, treasure map is low indeed, better than navigator, bureaucrat, pirate ship, nomad camp and walled village at least. I think remodel is a little too low as well.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #109 on: February 01, 2013, 02:18:05 pm »
0

So I've come to feel that treasure map, while not quite a "good" card, is under-rated. At least its better than feast/nomad-camp/rats/pirate-ship. Obviously waiting for your maps to line up at random is bad, but I win lots of games by using haven/warehouse/courtyard/tactician to line them up. Also, in a situation where you have heavy trashing, or draw your deck every turn, it can be great. Its hard to beat four gold for two installments of $4 for boosting your economy. I often play games where people forget this option exists.

PS. The jerk in me wants to say that I hope no one actually listens to this post, because there's nothing more fun than beating someone with a "bad" card like treasure map.
Agreed - for TM to work you need methods to get the two together. Haven, Native Village (if you're using it liberally or not using it blindly), Scrying Pool, Tactition, Courtyard, etc. can all work, as can heavy trashing. I don't see too much of a problem opening TM/Chapel, so long as you can pick up a silver to make sure you can get the other TM w/o delay.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #110 on: February 01, 2013, 02:46:02 pm »
+1

I actually found armoury quite poor. While putting four cost card on top of the deck sounds good, you'd have that four cost card in your hand already if you'd bought it instead of the armoury. If you are getting green cards you don't want them on top of your deck. If you have a big engine deck then you could probably draw all your deck and the discard pile in the same turn anyway. It clearly has its uses but it seems to me that the niche where it is better than an ironworks is quite small.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #111 on: February 01, 2013, 04:14:32 pm »
0

I actually found armoury quite poor. While putting four cost card on top of the deck sounds good, you'd have that four cost card in your hand already if you'd bought it instead of the armoury. If you are getting green cards you don't want them on top of your deck. If you have a big engine deck then you could probably draw all your deck and the discard pile in the same turn anyway. It clearly has its uses but it seems to me that the niche where it is better than an ironworks is quite small.

But, hey, see, you get to use the Armory... what do you know!  More than once!  It's... I don't know, what would you call it... an investment, maybe?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #112 on: February 04, 2013, 04:17:39 pm »
+1

I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #113 on: February 04, 2013, 04:30:25 pm »
0

I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.

Non DA Cards that interact nicely are Upgrade, Apprentice, Remodel, Remake, Bishop, Develop, Expand, Forge, Governor (esp. Opponent's remodel option), Lookout (somewhat), Saboteur (somewhat).

So that is 11 Non-DA cards that have easy "neat tricks" that can be performed.  There are 167 (I think) Non-DA cards, so assuming you play with Fortress and no other DA cards, you have a:

1 - (156/167 x 155/166 x 154/165 x 153/164 x 152/163 x 151/162 x 150/161 x 149/160 x 148/159) = ~46.7% chance

Add in the neat DA tricks, and I think about 50% of boards will have a "neat trick" for Fortress to be >>> a vanilla village.  And quite frankly, walled village is nowhere near that much better than Village that often.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #114 on: February 04, 2013, 05:27:39 pm »
+1

I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.

Non DA Cards that interact nicely are Upgrade, Apprentice, Remodel, Remake, Bishop, Develop, Expand, Forge, Governor (esp. Opponent's remodel option), Lookout (somewhat), Saboteur (somewhat).

So that is 11 Non-DA cards that have easy "neat tricks" that can be performed.  There are 167 (I think) Non-DA cards, so assuming you play with Fortress and no other DA cards, you have a:

1 - (156/167 x 155/166 x 154/165 x 153/164 x 152/163 x 151/162 x 150/161 x 149/160 x 148/159) = ~46.7% chance

Add in the neat DA tricks, and I think about 50% of boards will have a "neat trick" for Fortress to be >>> a vanilla village.  And quite frankly, walled village is nowhere near that much better than Village that often.

Lookout somewhat?  I really like Fortress with Lookout.  I wouldn't get the two just for that combo, but it's really nice synergy later in the game when trashing is no longer a high priority.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #115 on: February 04, 2013, 05:47:15 pm »
0

I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.

Non DA Cards that interact nicely are Upgrade, Apprentice, Remodel, Remake, Bishop, Develop, Expand, Forge, Governor (esp. Opponent's remodel option), Lookout (somewhat), Saboteur (somewhat).

So that is 11 Non-DA cards that have easy "neat tricks" that can be performed.  There are 167 (I think) Non-DA cards, so assuming you play with Fortress and no other DA cards, you have a:

1 - (156/167 x 155/166 x 154/165 x 153/164 x 152/163 x 151/162 x 150/161 x 149/160 x 148/159) = ~46.7% chance

Add in the neat DA tricks, and I think about 50% of boards will have a "neat trick" for Fortress to be >>> a vanilla village.  And quite frankly, walled village is nowhere near that much better than Village that often.

Lookout somewhat?  I really like Fortress with Lookout.  I wouldn't get the two just for that combo, but it's really nice synergy later in the game when trashing is no longer a high priority.

Well, yeah.  That's why I put somewhat.  Apprentice-Fortress is a thing almost on its own.  Fortress just makes Lookout less risky later on.  But you get no benefit for doing that since you aren't thinning your deck or increasing hand size.  So it's nice, but not quite on the level of the rest.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #116 on: February 04, 2013, 06:59:43 pm »
0

I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.

Non DA Cards that interact nicely are Upgrade, Apprentice, Remodel, Remake, Bishop, Develop, Expand, Forge, Governor (esp. Opponent's remodel option), Lookout (somewhat), Saboteur (somewhat).

So that is 11 Non-DA cards that have easy "neat tricks" that can be performed.  There are 167 (I think) Non-DA cards, so assuming you play with Fortress and no other DA cards, you have a:

1 - (156/167 x 155/166 x 154/165 x 153/164 x 152/163 x 151/162 x 150/161 x 149/160 x 148/159) = ~46.7% chance

Add in the neat DA tricks, and I think about 50% of boards will have a "neat trick" for Fortress to be >>> a vanilla village.  And quite frankly, walled village is nowhere near that much better than Village that often.

Lookout somewhat?  I really like Fortress with Lookout.  I wouldn't get the two just for that combo, but it's really nice synergy later in the game when trashing is no longer a high priority.

Well, yeah.  That's why I put somewhat.  Apprentice-Fortress is a thing almost on its own.  Fortress just makes Lookout less risky later on.  But you get no benefit for doing that since you aren't thinning your deck or increasing hand size.  So it's nice, but not quite on the level of the rest.

You do get a benefit. The "trashed" Fortress goes into your hand, and then you can play it to draw the top-decked card and get an extra action, plus you filtered away the third card.
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #117 on: February 04, 2013, 07:03:57 pm »
0

I don't get the hate for Walled Village. At worst, it is a vanilla village for $4 that might top deck itself occassionally in an engine. In a non-engine, it allows you to get a couple extra terminals. IMO, Fortress will more often than not be a vanilla village for $4, and yet it is ranked higher. Yes, you can do neat tricks with it, but I find those opportunities don't come up that often unless you are playing pure DA.

Non DA Cards that interact nicely are Upgrade, Apprentice, Remodel, Remake, Bishop, Develop, Expand, Forge, Governor (esp. Opponent's remodel option), Lookout (somewhat), Saboteur (somewhat).

So that is 11 Non-DA cards that have easy "neat tricks" that can be performed.  There are 167 (I think) Non-DA cards, so assuming you play with Fortress and no other DA cards, you have a:

1 - (156/167 x 155/166 x 154/165 x 153/164 x 152/163 x 151/162 x 150/161 x 149/160 x 148/159) = ~46.7% chance

Add in the neat DA tricks, and I think about 50% of boards will have a "neat trick" for Fortress to be >>> a vanilla village.  And quite frankly, walled village is nowhere near that much better than Village that often.

Lookout somewhat?  I really like Fortress with Lookout.  I wouldn't get the two just for that combo, but it's really nice synergy later in the game when trashing is no longer a high priority.

Well, yeah.  That's why I put somewhat.  Apprentice-Fortress is a thing almost on its own.  Fortress just makes Lookout less risky later on.  But you get no benefit for doing that since you aren't thinning your deck or increasing hand size.  So it's nice, but not quite on the level of the rest.

You do get a benefit. The "trashed" Fortress goes into your hand, and then you can play it to draw the top-decked card and get an extra action, plus you filtered away the third card.

Well, you could have had a card in your hand instead of the Lookout, if you hadn't had it.  My point is if you want Lookout with Fortress, you'd probably want it without Fortress.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #118 on: February 04, 2013, 09:13:49 pm »
0

Fortress tricks are a bit more than "neat."
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #119 on: February 04, 2013, 11:57:11 pm »
0

You can't forget Salvager if you're talking about Fortress.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #120 on: February 07, 2013, 03:15:45 pm »
0

I'm really sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but any news on when the next installment may be uploaded? I've been enjoying reading through the list and am excited to see what's next. =)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #121 on: February 07, 2013, 03:23:14 pm »
0

Qvist works on Valve time: It's ready when it's ready.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #122 on: February 07, 2013, 03:41:11 pm »
0

Now, I haven't been watching the videos, so maybe I don't have a leg to stand on here. That being said, isn't it probably making the videos that's taking so long? Are they really necessary? How much do they add to the experience?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #123 on: February 07, 2013, 03:48:01 pm »
0

Now, I haven't been watching the videos, so maybe I don't have a leg to stand on here. That being said, isn't it probably making the videos that's taking so long? Are they really necessary? How much do they add to the experience?

The videos seem pretty popular on YouTube.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #124 on: February 07, 2013, 04:07:19 pm »
0

Now, I haven't been watching the videos, so maybe I don't have a leg to stand on here. That being said, isn't it probably making the videos that's taking so long? Are they really necessary? How much do they add to the experience?

The videos seem pretty popular on YouTube.

OK, cool beans. Forget I said anything. Perhaps while I'm waiting for the next one, I should watch the others! :)

Too bad I do most of my DominionStrategy browsing while at work.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #125 on: February 07, 2013, 04:21:42 pm »
+1

Now, I haven't been watching the videos, so maybe I don't have a leg to stand on here. That being said, isn't it probably making the videos that's taking so long? Are they really necessary? How much do they add to the experience?

I gotta say, I thought this until I actually watched the videos (well, listened to them). I'm pretty sure that the text is the same as what is posted here, but it is super-nice in that format.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #126 on: February 07, 2013, 04:35:17 pm »
+6

Thanks for the feedback.

It takes some time, yes, but I wouldn't be able to update sooner anyway, I promise. Last weekend I was away and couldn't do anything and this week I'm not feeling that good/concentrated, so I haven't played any Dominion or couldn't concentrate. But I'm working on the next update now and try to publish part IV as an apologize on Saturday. I promised two parts per week and I still try to do it.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #127 on: February 07, 2013, 05:19:58 pm »
+6

If we seem impatient at times, it's only because of how much we appreciate your work, Qvist.  These lists are really fun.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #128 on: February 10, 2013, 12:15:32 am »
+1

we don't appreciate your work.  instead, we are incredibly upset.  you said the videos woud be ready like, ten years ago.  are you crazy?  do you think we don't care? the sorrow! the horror! the horror!
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #129 on: February 10, 2013, 02:49:29 pm »
0

we don't appreciate your work.  instead, we are incredibly upset.  you said the videos woud be ready like, ten years ago.  are you crazy?  do you think we don't care? the sorrow! the horror! the horror!

Stop making me a bad conscience. Anyway. Next part is up.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6626.msg182279#msg182279

I try to catch up soon. Next 2 parts will be uploaded next week for sure.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #130 on: February 10, 2013, 03:43:40 pm »
0

Thoughts on Part 3.

-Glad Spice Merchant is moving up.  It really is a nice card and I think it still deserves to be up a few spots higher.

-I'm a little surprised that we see Procession below TR.  Both cards are mainly used in engines, and in most engines there are cards at a lot of price points you want.  True, I've mainly played Procession in high-DA cards, but it is simply outrageous in those games.

-Wandering Minstrel is underrated.  Yes, it can discard your Golds and Silvers.  But if you're building an engine, that's still not a BAD thing.  And if you're buying villages, you're probably building an engine.  It's kind of like if Golem discards your treasure... and that never makes me feel Golem is a worse card.  I think it is the #1 $4 village, but... perhaps #2.

-I think it's a mistake to have Cutpurse so far away from Militia.  Their attacks are very similar early, and that is when the attack matters most.  Neither attack really does much if your opponent has KC-KC-Torturer... but for early game economy, they are very similar.

-How haven't we seen Salvager?  It is effectively Remodel.  I put it down in the 40s, and I am shocked it hasn't been seen yet.

-A few other cards that I think are misplaced, but that will wait until later.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 2/5)
« Reply #131 on: February 10, 2013, 03:51:13 pm »
0

Wandering Ministrel is really underrated, I think. It's so good to make sure that you're able to draw your whole deck every turn and not depend on shuffle luck. You just draw the engine components first, and then the money. It's also a village which can be worth in money-ish games.
How haven't we seen Salvager?  It is effectively Remodel.  I put it down in the 40s, and I am shocked it hasn't been seen yet.

I don't think Salvager is too high, more like Remodel was way to low
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #132 on: February 10, 2013, 04:02:38 pm »
0

I haven't played with Scavenger much at all, but its power has been deceptive in every game that I've played with it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #133 on: February 10, 2013, 04:04:30 pm »
0

Well, wherever Throne Room ends up, it's overrated. Not sure it's better than Procession. Positive its not better than Spice Merchant. Which brings me to... Spice Merchant. Really a great card, and probably underranked here, still. That's a card that really gets your engine rolling.

I have no experience with Wandering Minstrel, but I can see that it's probably at least a little better than it came out here. I'm not sure Farming Village is worse than Mining Village. In fact, I suspect it's better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #134 on: February 10, 2013, 04:46:21 pm »
0

-Wandering Minstrel is underrated.  Yes, it can discard your Golds and Silvers.  But if you're building an engine, that's still not a BAD thing.  And if you're buying villages, you're probably building an engine.  It's kind of like if Golem discards your treasure... and that never makes me feel Golem is a worse card.  I think it is the #1 $4 village, but... perhaps #2.
I agree that it is better than I first thought. I still have to play more with it. But the 2 big problems are undeniable: Looter games and the problem of putting 3 terminal actions on top of the deck without being able to do anything against it.

-I think it's a mistake to have Cutpurse so far away from Militia.  Their attacks are very similar early, and that is when the attack matters most.  Neither attack really does much if your opponent has KC-KC-Torturer... but for early game economy, they are very similar.
I disagree. On boards with good trashing available where you have want to build a good engine losing 2 cards can really hurt. Cutpurse only hurts about the first 2-3 reshuffles, is better in multiplayer and is still decent against BM.

-How haven't we seen Salvager?  It is effectively Remodel.  I put it down in the 40s, and I am shocked it hasn't been seen yet.
No, definitely not. I'm exaggerating, but there's a big different between Workshop and terminal $4. I hope you see what I mean. And you can use Salvager just to trash and don't have to gain anything, unlike Remodel.

Well, wherever Throne Room ends up, it's overrated.
Marin would disagree ;)

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #135 on: February 10, 2013, 06:00:21 pm »
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I'm surprised we haven't seen Death Cart yet, after all the fuss everyone made about my article.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #136 on: February 10, 2013, 07:10:09 pm »
0

-Wandering Minstrel is underrated.  Yes, it can discard your Golds and Silvers.  But if you're building an engine, that's still not a BAD thing.  And if you're buying villages, you're probably building an engine.  It's kind of like if Golem discards your treasure... and that never makes me feel Golem is a worse card.  I think it is the #1 $4 village, but... perhaps #2.
I agree that it is better than I first thought. I still have to play more with it. But the 2 big problems are undeniable: Looter games and the problem of putting 3 terminal actions on top of the deck without being able to do anything against it.
Problem #1:  Yes, it doesn't clear off the ruins, but neither of the other villages do either.  So sure you could clear off Golds and leave ruins, but the ruins weren't going anywhere anyway.  So effectively you have to ask yourself- "Is the average value of my action cards greater than or less than the average value of my treasure cards plus my victory cards plus my curse cards?"  And if the answer is no, chances are it isn't an engine, and chances are you would have been better off with a silver.

Problem #2:  Yes, it can leave 3 terminal actions on top.  But, that means the top 3 cards were terminal actions.  And if you had played any other village, there STILL would be 3 terminal actions on top (barring FV and an estate, but edge case).  So it's still not really worse in this situation.

Quote
-I think it's a mistake to have Cutpurse so far away from Militia.  Their attacks are very similar early, and that is when the attack matters most.  Neither attack really does much if your opponent has KC-KC-Torturer... but for early game economy, they are very similar.
I disagree. On boards with good trashing available where you have want to build a good engine losing 2 cards can really hurt. Cutpurse only hurts about the first 2-3 reshuffles, is better in multiplayer and is still decent against BM.

Well, I agree that Militia is better.  I think I put it about 5 higher, and I think that Militia deserves to be that much higher or maybe a touch more.  It's looking like it could be a good 20 spots higher though, and that IS too much. 

Quote
-How haven't we seen Salvager?  It is effectively Remodel.  I put it down in the 40s, and I am shocked it hasn't been seen yet.
No, definitely not. I'm exaggerating, but there's a big different between Workshop and terminal $4. I hope you see what I mean. And you can use Salvager just to trash and don't have to gain anything, unlike Remodel.

Yes it can trash, but it isn't particularly good at it.  Both Salvager and Remodel are more useful in engines than in BM, and generally speaking in engines, there is SOMETHING you want at less than or equal to $4 for you to remodel your estates into.  And if there is a $2, you can turn your coppers into.  Because mostly speaking, Salvaging your coppers is not so hot.  Plus, Remodel adds $2 of value to your deck every time, while Salvager adds $0 of value to your deck every time.  Most of the good Salvager tricks (a la, BV, Peddler, Gold-->Province, Province-->Province) work the same or better with Remodel.  I think both are overrated, but Salvager much much moreso.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #137 on: February 10, 2013, 07:15:07 pm »
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Wandering Minstrel is superior to Mining Village. I think some players haven't "got it" just yet. But, when you do get that card, it can make for some powerful engines. I think the biggest problem is knowing when not to buy it or to buy it sparingly. But, I think Wandering Minstrel is one of the best villages for helping get your engine purring.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #138 on: February 10, 2013, 07:48:11 pm »
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This is a tough list to judge, considering how ridiculously close a lot of cards are. A few standouts for me though are:

Procession - I'm surprised to see this below Throne Room, although I guess it's 'trap' feeling is probably the reason, and especially with less experience I did too. I'll chalk this up to DA inexperience, but it seems like a much better card now I've played with it a bit, and either way, it's overrated where it is. Speaking of which, Throne Room is ridiculously overrated now. I have it 42nd, and I don't think it should be much higher. Throning a single action is generally good, but not easy until you have a good engine running. Throning Throne Rooms is of course better, but far too often, I find I'd have been better off with just more engine components, because while the TR hands are great, you lose a bit of tempo on average due to TR collisions without the good parts and the like.

And who put Farming Village 2nd last ??? ? That's like... what, really? Someone who really doesn't believe in the engine?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #139 on: February 10, 2013, 08:11:22 pm »
+1

Throne Room is probably just fine where it is. It's not incredibly ridiculous like KC, but it is pretty ridiculous. In any decent engine it acts like another copy of a $5+ card, or it enables you to play another terminal, or whatever. You make it seem like it's hard to get TR to collide with another Action, but the odds are pretty decent on the second reshuffle if you already pick up other Actions on turns 1-4, and it's even better with some trashing or gaining.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #140 on: February 10, 2013, 11:16:53 pm »
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Quote
Procession - I'm surprised to see this below Throne Room, although I guess it's 'trap' feeling is probably the reason, and especially with less experience I did too.
I think I'd disagree. It deserves to be where it is. Yes, the action upgrading is cool, but you have to be more careful than TR because you're trashing your engine pieces- if there isn't a good progression of action cards to upgrade into, you can't use procession as an engine piece, but you can always use throne room. There's a lot of neat tricks with procession where its very powerful, but there are lots of sets where its not as useful as TR
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #141 on: February 10, 2013, 11:19:48 pm »
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I don't know, I think Throne Room can also be a trap too, though. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Throne Room is bad by any stretch of the imagination. But I don't think it should be ahead of Spice Merchant.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #142 on: February 11, 2013, 12:29:57 am »
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Getting any sort of agreement on the middle tier of 4's is probably impossible. There's just too many cards, and too many ways to value them. I have throne room around #30, but I have no problem with it being in the top 20. I could see it going either way. Off by 10 spots seems like not a huge deal here. I think Island and Cutpurse are at least 10-15 spots too low, but I could be overrating them.

The one thing I really don't get is Baron. Baron is basically only good if you have an engine that can draw up to big hands without trashing Estates. You need the big hand both to help line up with the Estate, and because you're only getting $4 out of 2 cards, so it's not really high-density money. And in games with Shelters, you even have to buy or gain the Estate to get any money out of it at all!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #143 on: February 11, 2013, 01:43:43 am »
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I just hate Baron, so I can't judge it fairly. Baron always misses Estates on Turns 3/4/5 for me.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #144 on: February 11, 2013, 01:55:43 am »
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Why is Scavenger so low? In my opinion it's probably one of the best non attack $4s. It's not just a better Chancellor. Imagine Scheming any card from your deck that you didn't draw this turn. Sounds pretty nifty to me.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #145 on: February 11, 2013, 02:10:02 am »
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Why is Scavenger so low? In my opinion it's probably one of the best non attack $4s. It's not just a better Chancellor. Imagine Scheming any card from your deck that you didn't draw this turn. Sounds pretty nifty to me.

From my experience Scavenger has the problem, that it's only okayish in BM decks (there are probably better terminals most times), and it only shines in suboptimal engines. In very good engines, where you draw your deck more or less reliably or at least play your key actions nearly each turn, it's basically useless.

I feel that Procession is a bit too high. It has to some extend the Coppersmith issue, that it's really great when it's great, but many many times it's just a dead card.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 02:11:21 am by kn1tt3r »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #146 on: February 11, 2013, 11:50:35 am »
0

(Disclaimer: I mostly want to post here in order to get thread updates more easily :))

What $4 Dark Ages cards have we yet to see on this list?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #147 on: February 11, 2013, 11:52:14 am »
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(Disclaimer: I mostly want to post here in order to get thread updates more easily :))

What $4 Dark Ages cards have we yet to see on this list?

Death Cart, Ironmonger and Marauder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #148 on: February 11, 2013, 12:57:45 pm »
+1

(Disclaimer: I mostly want to post here in order to get thread updates more easily :))

What $4 Dark Ages cards have we yet to see on this list?

Death Cart, Ironmonger and Marauder

Death cart is going to be too high I think. Ironmonger and Marauder are both really solid cards though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #149 on: February 11, 2013, 02:29:43 pm »
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(Disclaimer: I mostly want to post here in order to get thread updates more easily :))

What $4 Dark Ages cards have we yet to see on this list?

Death Cart, Ironmonger and Marauder



Yes, I voted Ironmonger and Marauder both in the top 10 and one of them even in the top 5.

Death cart is going to be too high I think. Ironmonger and Marauder are both really solid cards though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #150 on: February 12, 2013, 02:34:45 am »
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Ironworks seems crazy low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2013, 10:22:59 am »
+1

Salvager/Scavenger is the new Mint/Mine for me.  I can just never remember which one is which.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #152 on: February 12, 2013, 11:42:46 am »
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Quote
And it combos even better with Stash. 2 Scavengers and 4 Stashes guarantee you a Province each turn.
two scavengers and *three* stashes, isnt it?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #153 on: February 12, 2013, 11:47:27 am »
+1

Quote
And it combos even better with Stash. 2 Scavengers and 4 Stashes guarantee you a Province each turn.
two scavengers and *three* stashes, isnt it?

A hand of 2 Scavengers and 3 Stashes would screw you up because you can't top-deck a Scavenger. The probablitity is low, but if you want to be sure, you need 4 Stashes (3 Scavengers would work too).

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #154 on: February 12, 2013, 07:26:18 pm »
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In a mirror, you may well be better off taking the chance to get first crack at the Provinces.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #155 on: February 12, 2013, 10:52:01 pm »
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Ironworks seems crazy low.

Why do you say that?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #156 on: February 13, 2013, 04:18:16 am »
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Ironworks seems crazy low.

Why do you say that?
The fact that it's almost anyways straight up dominant when paired with SR or gardens, how good it can be for engines when there are cheap components, not to mention the rare interactions with highway or even bridge and how strong it's with vineyards. A card that's so often just completely dominant and quite often pretty significant just deserves a higher rank, imo. Dark ages probably hurts IW a bit, I'm not taking that into account as i haven't played any DA still.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #157 on: February 13, 2013, 07:32:53 am »
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I've found more and more that it's so hard to judge a lot of cards depending on how often they shine and how good they are under those conditions. For example consider the following card:

Super Village:
Action - $3
At the start of the game, roll two dice. If you roll two 6's, this card reads "+3 cards, +2 actions" for the rest of the game. Otherwise, it reads "+1 action"

Now this is obviously quite contrived, but one could argue it as being both the best, or the worst $3 quite legitimately. 1/36th of the time, it's totally bonkers, but the rest, it's worse than a $2. How much do we value that ~3% chance of dominance* when it's so bad otherwise? Some people would probably see it's dominance in those games, and give it a high rank because when it's good, it's so ludicrously good. Others would probably see that it's terrible 97% of the time, and give it a low rank. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but it's extremely hard to judge how to rate such a thing.

The issue is that, while this is a lot more extreme than what's really going on here, Ironworks is similar. It's dominating on Silk Road and Gardens boards, very good with Bridge, Highway and Vineyards, occasionally still good but otherwise, is very bad. There are other examples as well - Coppersmith is occasionally amazing, in a draw-your-deck engine without trashing, it's a terminal +$7, but usually, it's a card to avoid.

The natural human tendancy, I feel, is to swing in one direction or the other.

*I am assuming that when the double 6's are rolled it's dominant, but even then I guess there are boards when it wouldn't be.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #158 on: February 13, 2013, 08:35:31 am »
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Ironworks seems crazy low.

Why do you say that?
The fact that it's almost anyways straight up dominant when paired with SR or gardens, how good it can be for engines when there are cheap components, not to mention the rare interactions with highway or even bridge and how strong it's with vineyards. A card that's so often just completely dominant and quite often pretty significant just deserves a higher rank, imo. Dark ages probably hurts IW a bit, I'm not taking that into account as i haven't played any DA still.

Well, all of those may or may not be true, but I guess my problem stems from the similarity to workshop.  Ironworks is obviously better than Workshop... but not by THAT much.  Yes, the +Action really helps in engines.  But the +$1 is not that big of a deal, and the +card normally is not that important either.  And workshop is 29/32 for $3 cards. 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #159 on: February 13, 2013, 08:56:08 am »
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I've found more and more that it's so hard to judge a lot of cards depending on how often they shine and how good they are under those conditions. For example consider the following card:

I think also last time the discussion was mostly on this point, and you just have to leave it like that.  I think the comments are a good place to explain which card have the potential to be better and why.

Personally, I prefer(ed) [didn't vote this time] cards that have the potential to be good, because a) they are usually underated and b) you can just not buy them.  If course everything has somehow to be scaled by the probability that they are good.

@WS/Ironworks: I got to like these a bit more in recent times, basically every engine that is worth building relies on one part which costs $4 or less, and thus these cards a a great help to build it fastly.  And of course the +1action of the IW, but also sometimes the option for +$1/+1card to get to a crucial $5 are very helpfull when building an engine.  But I wouldn't put WS that much behind for this kind of game.

But especially IW is not "very bad" except occasionally.  You can use it in engines, you can use it in slogs, especially with cursers to gain Silvers, it's great in rushes.  There might be better cards for this, but Silver gainers are not that plenty. So there basically is just BigMoney left where it's bad.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #160 on: February 13, 2013, 09:30:04 am »
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But especially IW is not "very bad" except occasionally.  You can use it in engines, you can use it in slogs, especially with cursers to gain Silvers, it's great in rushes.  There might be better cards for this, but Silver gainers are not that plenty. So there basically is just BigMoney left where it's bad.
BM/IW is by itself bad, but Ironworks isn't necessarily bad in all Big Money decks either. It's worse than Jack pretty much always, but there are cases when you want a Jack even though the Jack you're getting isn't quite as good as Jack.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #161 on: February 13, 2013, 11:30:56 am »
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Baron seems low to me.  I know there are times when it's not a useful card, and you don't want multiples very often (or ever?).  But I've virtually never seen it NOT be an opening buy. 

A must-open card like this deserves to me much higher than #27
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #162 on: February 13, 2013, 11:36:29 am »
+2

Baron seems low to me.  I know there are times when it's not a useful card, and you don't want multiples very often (or ever?).  But I've virtually never seen it NOT be an opening buy. 

A must-open card like this deserves to me much higher than #27

I don't consider Baron to be must-open, even before considering Shelters games.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #163 on: February 13, 2013, 01:49:02 pm »
+1

But especially IW is not "very bad" except occasionally.  You can use it in engines, you can use it in slogs, especially with cursers to gain Silvers, it's great in rushes.  There might be better cards for this, but Silver gainers are not that plenty. So there basically is just BigMoney left where it's bad.
BM/IW is by itself bad, but Ironworks isn't necessarily bad in all Big Money decks either. It's worse than Jack pretty much always, but there are cases when you want a Jack even though the Jack you're getting isn't quite as good as Jack.
I'm reminded of the Guardian's review of Anger Management, which they described as starring "Jack Nicholson playing a Jack Nicholson who's not as good a Jack Nicholson as the Jack Nicholson he played in About Schmidt or As Good As It Gets, but a better Jack Nicholson than the Jack Nicholson he played in Something's Gotta Give".
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #164 on: February 13, 2013, 01:50:45 pm »
0

I did play a board once where the dominant strategy was Big Money Ironworks. It was like a submission for the worst kingdom ever, or something. Bunch of villages with no draw, I think. But generally, Ironworks does little for a money deck.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #165 on: February 13, 2013, 05:40:05 pm »
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Baron seems low to me.  I know there are times when it's not a useful card, and you don't want multiples very often (or ever?).  But I've virtually never seen it NOT be an opening buy. 

A must-open card like this deserves to me much higher than #27

It is far, far, far, far from a must open card.  I buy it in a total of 40% of games, and I am surprised it is even that high.  Sure, if you connect with an estate every time, it's great.  But often times there is trashing, or other terminals you want to play, or you just can't connect them, and then it is such a bad card.  And even when it's great, it's not that great.

Additionally, on the list of Best/Worst openings, the highest Baron opening is Baron/Chapel at a level 1 and #607 overall... right behind Trader/Lighthouse and Walled Village/Steward. 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #166 on: February 14, 2013, 04:53:40 am »
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Additionally, on the list of Best/Worst openings, the highest Baron opening is Baron/Chapel at a level 1 and #607 overall... right behind Trader/Lighthouse and Walled Village/Steward.

...Which are power-openings, of course ;)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #167 on: February 14, 2013, 05:23:05 am »
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I think Worker's village is overrated because often you play more than one village per turn, and you usually don't need more than 1 additionnal +buy.
I tend to think Mining village is the best of the $4 villages, but all are pretty close (except walled).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #168 on: February 14, 2013, 05:24:59 am »
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fyi, I wanted to upload the next part yesterday, but my video didn't want to render somehow. I try it again today.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #169 on: February 15, 2013, 01:09:34 pm »
+1

Maybe just up the list without the video meanwhile? :)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #170 on: February 15, 2013, 09:45:40 pm »
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Maybe just up the list without the video meanwhile? :)

I rendered it again and now it worked. Strange.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6626.msg182280#msg182280

I'm interested in your comments ... because I think there will be a lot to say this time.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #171 on: February 15, 2013, 10:07:24 pm »
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Salvager at #12?  #12?  That is way way way too high.

Let's look at it closer though, as obviously some people disagree with me:

Early:
-It can trash coppers.  This is identical to Trade Route, which most people agree is horrible as an opener.
-It can trash estates.  This is nice, but after matching up with the first estate it becomes very difficult to match up with an estates.

Middle:
-Not a whole lot you want to trash to it.  You can trash Silvers, but that's basically a terminal copper.  You can trash coppers for a terminal negative copper.  You can keep hunting for your estate, but that's not going to work so well.

Late:
-You can salvage your Gold and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).
-You can salvage your Province and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).

It is really only better than Remodel when you would rather have a 5 than a 4 and a 3.  Which is often, but not always.  Yes it does deck thinning, but single card deck thinning is not so hot.

I would drop it at least 30 slots, but rank 12?  Really? Really?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #172 on: February 15, 2013, 10:43:17 pm »
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Salvager at #12?  #12?  That is way way way too high.

Let's look at it closer though, as obviously some people disagree with me:

Early:
-It can trash coppers.  This is identical to Trade Route, which most people agree is horrible as an opener.
-It can trash estates.  This is nice, but after matching up with the first estate it becomes very difficult to match up with an estates.

Middle:
-Not a whole lot you want to trash to it.  You can trash Silvers, but that's basically a terminal copper.  You can trash coppers for a terminal negative copper.  You can keep hunting for your estate, but that's not going to work so well.

Late:
-You can salvage your Gold and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).
-You can salvage your Province and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).

It is really only better than Remodel when you would rather have a 5 than a 4 and a 3.  Which is often, but not always.  Yes it does deck thinning, but single card deck thinning is not so hot.

I would drop it at least 30 slots, but rank 12?  Really? Really?

I don't know if the ranking is correct, but you're clearly underselling Salvager. Especially the difference between getting a 5 versus a 4 and a 3, which is going to be huge in a lot of games. Salvager's other main advantage over Remodel is of course the flexibility of spending that coin in whatever way you like, which I find makes it combo more effectively with most gainers. Salvager gives you options in hands that otherwise might be limited. It allows you to squeeze out all the coin value of your deck, and recoup your early spending.

You also mention that it can be useless in the middle of the game, which is true, but Salvager has the effect of shortening the middle part of a game.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #173 on: February 15, 2013, 10:43:38 pm »
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Salvager at #12?  #12?  That is way way way too high.

Let's look at it closer though, as obviously some people disagree with me:

Early:
-It can trash coppers.  This is identical to Trade Route, which most people agree is horrible as an opener.
-It can trash estates.  This is nice, but after matching up with the first estate it becomes very difficult to match up with an estates.

Middle:
-Not a whole lot you want to trash to it.  You can trash Silvers, but that's basically a terminal copper.  You can trash coppers for a terminal negative copper.  You can keep hunting for your estate, but that's not going to work so well.

Late:
-You can salvage your Gold and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).
-You can salvage your Province and buy a Province.  Of course, another card can do the same thing (remodel).

It is really only better than Remodel when you would rather have a 5 than a 4 and a 3.  Which is often, but not always.  Yes it does deck thinning, but single card deck thinning is not so hot.

I would drop it at least 30 slots, but rank 12?  Really? Really?

Late:
-You can salvage a $4 or $5 card, making it so you can buy a Province instead of a Duchy, thus winning the game. Another card (Remodel) cannot do this, and could only convert your $4 or $5 card into a Duchy, which is ok but not that great.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #174 on: February 15, 2013, 11:06:43 pm »
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I don't think that Salvager is way too high, but Remodel is definitely too low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #175 on: February 15, 2013, 11:11:51 pm »
+1

My argument.

I don't know if the ranking is correct, but you're clearly underselling Salvager. Especially the difference between getting a 5 versus a 4 and a 3, which is going to be huge in a lot of games. Salvager's other main advantage over Remodel is of course the flexibility of spending that coin in whatever way you like, which I find makes it combo more effectively with most gainers. Salvager gives you options in hands that otherwise might be limited. It allows you to squeeze out all the coin value of your deck, and recoup your early spending.

You also mention that it can be useless in the middle of the game, which is true, but Salvager has the effect of shortening the middle part of a game.

I know I do underestimate it a touch.  I have it 2 ranks ahead of Scout, which is slightly too low.  But, I really cannot see how this card is better than Spice Merchant or Moneylender for single card trashing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #176 on: February 15, 2013, 11:13:04 pm »
+5

I know I do underestimate it a touch.  I have it 2 ranks ahead of Scout, which is slightly too low.

...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #177 on: February 15, 2013, 11:29:26 pm »
+3

Someone ranked Worker's Village #1? o_0
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #178 on: February 15, 2013, 11:46:52 pm »
+1

Why is TR so high? It isn't KC people. I agree with Conspirator. I think SR maybe should be a little higher. I also feel Ironmonger isn't high enough. I'm not sure where I ranked it, but I'm certain it made my top 10. It is a pretty strong card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #179 on: February 16, 2013, 12:04:58 am »
+1

So Marauder is the only DA card that made it to the top 11... I wonder how it got ranked compared to Sea Hag...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #180 on: February 16, 2013, 02:04:07 am »
+1

But, I really cannot see how this card is better than Spice Merchant or Moneylender for single card trashing.
It is worse than Spice Merchant or Moneylender for single card trashing usually, but the thing is that Salvager does more than just single card trashing. And even Salvager + Estate is better single card thrashing than SM or Moneylender + Copper, because trashing an Estate is better than trashing a Copper and because +$2, +buy is better than +$2 or -$1, +2 cards, +1 Action.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #181 on: February 16, 2013, 02:41:20 am »
+3

Conspirator and throne room are overrated. Not massively so, but so. Salvager I think is a touch overrated. Vaguely happy with the rest. We should have seen Ironworks by now, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #182 on: February 16, 2013, 03:24:40 am »
+2

We should have seen Ironworks by now, though.

It was 37th.

You had me real worried for a minute there :P
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #183 on: February 16, 2013, 09:28:12 am »
+2

Salvager, I don't know if it's 'way too high', but it seems a bit high here. But in response to
But, I really cannot see how this card is better than Spice Merchant or Moneylender for single card trashing.
If you're looking at it to trash down, you're doing it wrong. That's not the primary purpose of the card. Somehow people have also missed one of the purposes of the card, which is to give +buy. Well, you may say that remodel increases the value of your deck more, and this CAN be true, but being able to have the flexibility to use that money ANYWHERE and split it up amongst different cards, pooled along with the other money you're producing, is what usually makes it better than remodel. Enough better to justify this big a gap? I'd say probably not, but better.
Well that and that 5>3+4 a lot of the time in dominion, and nothing>2 most of the time.

As for other things: Death Cart, I haven't played with it much, but it's got to be way high here, but you know that's somewhat on me - I rated it even a good bit higher than this (what was I thinking?). I think Wandering Minstrel is a bit low, yeah that's old, but what I really don't understand is how throne room is the best village here. I mean really? It's decent, but there's a lot of times you actually want regular old village over it, which is definitely not something you can say of the others. Finally, conspirator. Well, it has more upside than the other cards here, but so often it's a bit dicey. I mean, it is so good if activated, and so bad otherwise. You want to have it in a big engine, but the more conspirators you have, the less likely that engine fires. It's good, but I think I'd have it a bit lower.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #184 on: February 16, 2013, 11:25:05 am »
+1

Salvager, I don't know if it's 'way too high', but it seems a bit high here. But in response to
But, I really cannot see how this card is better than Spice Merchant or Moneylender for single card trashing.
If you're looking at it to trash down, you're doing it wrong. That's not the primary purpose of the card. Somehow people have also missed one of the purposes of the card, which is to give +buy. Well, you may say that remodel increases the value of your deck more, and this CAN be true, but being able to have the flexibility to use that money ANYWHERE and split it up amongst different cards, pooled along with the other money you're producing, is what usually makes it better than remodel. Enough better to justify this big a gap? I'd say probably not, but better.
Well that and that 5>3+4 a lot of the time in dominion, and nothing>2 most of the time.

It gives plus buy, yes, but it can't help you increase your deck size by more than one.  So, it's kind of a faux plus buy.  So, it's one of the worst "plus buy" cards in the game... I think in terms of just plus buy in a vacuum I'd rather have woodcutter, but that might just be me.

And if getting to 5 is that important turn 3/4, you have better odds of getting to 5 with silver.  I'm not going to calculate the odds, but getting Salvager/CCCC means getting a silver instead of a gold or 5.  And unlike Baron, you cannot gain more early game economy via Baron/EEEC or something.  And I'd argue that wanting 5's is not a slam dunk.  Sure, there are more power 5's than power 3 and 4s.  But many village are 3 and 4.  There are quite a few good Cantrip+'s at 3 and 4.  Some draw is at 3 and 4.  If witch is on the board?  Don't open remodel... but you probably shouldn't open Salvager either.

In terms of end game acceleration, sure you'll have a hand of Witch/Salvager/Copper/Copper/Copper where you can get a Province here but not with Remodel... But on the other hand, you'll have hands like Duchy/Province/Remodel/Gold/Province where Remodel is better.  I'm not going to say which is more likely, it all depends on deck composition.  But, they are very very similar for any end game plays.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #185 on: February 16, 2013, 11:58:12 am »
+1

Salvager, I don't know if it's 'way too high', but it seems a bit high here. But in response to
But, I really cannot see how this card is better than Spice Merchant or Moneylender for single card trashing.
If you're looking at it to trash down, you're doing it wrong. That's not the primary purpose of the card. Somehow people have also missed one of the purposes of the card, which is to give +buy. Well, you may say that remodel increases the value of your deck more, and this CAN be true, but being able to have the flexibility to use that money ANYWHERE and split it up amongst different cards, pooled along with the other money you're producing, is what usually makes it better than remodel. Enough better to justify this big a gap? I'd say probably not, but better.
Well that and that 5>3+4 a lot of the time in dominion, and nothing>2 most of the time.

It gives plus buy, yes, but it can't help you increase your deck size by more than one.  So, it's kind of a faux plus buy.  So, it's one of the worst "plus buy" cards in the game... I think in terms of just plus buy in a vacuum I'd rather have woodcutter, but that might just be me.
You're still missing the point. +buy is not at all about increasing your deck size (yeah, except edge cases like gardens), it's about being able to buy multiple important cards at once.

Quote
And if getting to 5 is that important turn 3/4, you have better odds of getting to 5 with silver.
Absolutely, but the game lasts more than that long, and a tiny bit of trashing can often help a god deal. See masquerade[/quote]
I'm not going to calculate the odds, but getting Salvager/CCCC means getting a silver instead of a gold or 5.  And unlike Baron, you cannot gain more early game economy via Baron/EEEC or something.  And I'd argue that wanting 5's is not a slam dunk.  Sure, there are more power 5's than power 3 and 4s.  But many village are 3 and 4.  There are quite a few good Cantrip+'s at 3 and 4.  Some draw is at 3 and 4.  If witch is on the board?  Don't open remodel... but you probably shouldn't open Salvager either.[/quote] Well, but you actually want salvager decently often here. In terms of 5s vs 3s and 4s - yes, sometimes a 3 and a 4 is better than a 5, so it's not 'a slam dunk'; but most often, 5>3+4.

Quote
In terms of end game acceleration, sure you'll have a hand of Witch/Salvager/Copper/Copper/Copper where you can get a Province here but not with Remodel... But on the other hand, you'll have hands like Duchy/Province/Remodel/Gold/Province where Remodel is better.  I'm not going to say which is more likely, it all depends on deck composition.  But, they are very very similar for any end game plays.
No, they aren't, and I'll tell you which one happens more - the former, which salvager excels in. It's not just something you can throw your hands up and say, well there's situations for both, ergo they're equal. I mean, sometimes copper is better than silver, but....

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #186 on: February 16, 2013, 12:27:13 pm »
0

Salvager, I don't know if it's 'way too high', but it seems a bit high here. But in response to
But, I really cannot see how this card is better than Spice Merchant or Moneylender for single card trashing.
If you're looking at it to trash down, you're doing it wrong. That's not the primary purpose of the card. Somehow people have also missed one of the purposes of the card, which is to give +buy. Well, you may say that remodel increases the value of your deck more, and this CAN be true, but being able to have the flexibility to use that money ANYWHERE and split it up amongst different cards, pooled along with the other money you're producing, is what usually makes it better than remodel. Enough better to justify this big a gap? I'd say probably not, but better.
Well that and that 5>3+4 a lot of the time in dominion, and nothing>2 most of the time.

It gives plus buy, yes, but it can't help you increase your deck size by more than one.  So, it's kind of a faux plus buy.  So, it's one of the worst "plus buy" cards in the game... I think in terms of just plus buy in a vacuum I'd rather have woodcutter, but that might just be me.
You're still missing the point. +buy is not at all about increasing your deck size (yeah, except edge cases like gardens), it's about being able to buy multiple important cards at once.
I understand that you want +Buy to get two labs, or two provinces or whatever you want... but in terms of +Buy, is it really better than Woodcutter, the second worst $3 card?  +Buy really isn't all that rare, and while if Salvager is the only one on the board, sure it's nice, but I'd imagine more than half of Salvager boards have another +Buy card.

Quote
Quote
And if getting to 5 is that important turn 3/4, you have better odds of getting to 5 with silver.
Absolutely, but the game lasts more than that long, and a tiny bit of trashing can often help a god deal. See masquerade
I don't think masquerade and salvager are all that similar.  Maybe they are?  But in terms of opening power, Masq/Silver is stronger than any salvager opener.

Quote
Quote
I'm not going to calculate the odds, but getting Salvager/CCCC means getting a silver instead of a gold or 5.  And unlike Baron, you cannot gain more early game economy via Baron/EEEC or something.  And I'd argue that wanting 5's is not a slam dunk.  Sure, there are more power 5's than power 3 and 4s.  But many village are 3 and 4.  There are quite a few good Cantrip+'s at 3 and 4.  Some draw is at 3 and 4.  If witch is on the board?  Don't open remodel... but you probably shouldn't open Salvager either.
Well, but you actually want salvager decently often here. In terms of 5s vs 3s and 4s - yes, sometimes a 3 and a 4 is better than a 5, so it's not 'a slam dunk'; but most often, 5>3+4.
Most often, yes.  What 5's exactly do you think merit a Salvager opening?

Quote
Quote
In terms of end game acceleration, sure you'll have a hand of Witch/Salvager/Copper/Copper/Copper where you can get a Province here but not with Remodel... But on the other hand, you'll have hands like Duchy/Province/Remodel/Gold/Province where Remodel is better.  I'm not going to say which is more likely, it all depends on deck composition.  But, they are very very similar for any end game plays.
No, they aren't, and I'll tell you which one happens more - the former, which salvager excels in. It's not just something you can throw your hands up and say, well there's situations for both, ergo they're equal. I mean, sometimes copper is better than silver, but....
Do you have any proof of this?  Maybe in straight 5 card BM games, yes, but in game with attacks I think it swings more towards remodel.  Almost all attacks would seem to lower the chance of having Salvager + $5 card + $3 in your other cards.  And that's the main case where Salvager > Remodel.  Remodel + Gold doesn't need anything else to get a province.  Salvager + a card requires something else in hand.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #187 on: February 16, 2013, 01:02:47 pm »
0

Here are some of the 5's that I think encourage Salvager openings:
IGG, Hunting Party, Stables, Governor, Laboratory, Mountebank, Minion, Wharf (if there's villages), Highway, Treasury, Tactician, Haggler, Jester, Bazaar, Market, Festival, Cartographer, HoP, Duke (replacing estate with copper here is nice).

Some of those work better than others, but that's a lot of the power 5's.

Sometimes it's worth it in Ghost Ship and Margrave games just to remove a little bit of junk.

Salvager loves non-terminals, and it's still decent in money decks with terminal cash like Merchant Ship. It isn't great with terminal draw unless there's villages.

One time Salvager/Vault did this for me: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120405-160451-3ec072ae.html
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #188 on: February 16, 2013, 01:04:54 pm »
0

Salvager, I don't know if it's 'way too high', but it seems a bit high here. But in response to
But, I really cannot see how this card is better than Spice Merchant or Moneylender for single card trashing.
If you're looking at it to trash down, you're doing it wrong. That's not the primary purpose of the card. Somehow people have also missed one of the purposes of the card, which is to give +buy. Well, you may say that remodel increases the value of your deck more, and this CAN be true, but being able to have the flexibility to use that money ANYWHERE and split it up amongst different cards, pooled along with the other money you're producing, is what usually makes it better than remodel. Enough better to justify this big a gap? I'd say probably not, but better.
Well that and that 5>3+4 a lot of the time in dominion, and nothing>2 most of the time.

It gives plus buy, yes, but it can't help you increase your deck size by more than one.  So, it's kind of a faux plus buy.  So, it's one of the worst "plus buy" cards in the game... I think in terms of just plus buy in a vacuum I'd rather have woodcutter, but that might just be me.
You're still missing the point. +buy is not at all about increasing your deck size (yeah, except edge cases like gardens), it's about being able to buy multiple important cards at once.
I understand that you want +Buy to get two labs, or two provinces or whatever you want... but in terms of +Buy, is it really better than Woodcutter, the second worst $3 card?  +Buy really isn't all that rare, and while if Salvager is the only one on the board, sure it's nice, but I'd imagine more than half of Salvager boards have another +Buy card.
I honestly don't know what you mean by 'in terms of +Buy, is it really better than Woodcutter' (which I hold isn't the 2nd worst 3-cost also, but anyway...). Does it give +buy any better? No, they both give one extra buy. Ultimately you have to evaluate the cards as a whole, and as a whole, yes, it really is that much  better card than woodcutter.

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And if getting to 5 is that important turn 3/4, you have better odds of getting to 5 with silver.
Absolutely, but the game lasts more than that long, and a tiny bit of trashing can often help a god deal. See masquerade
I don't think masquerade and salvager are all that similar.  Maybe they are?  But in terms of opening power, Masq/Silver is stronger than any salvager opener.
They are very different cards. But the little amount of trashing masquerade gives is what makes it a strong card, compared to say moat. Ad the little bit of trashing is also what makes salvager strong. They're also both utility cards, doing a couple different things for you. Obviously masq is much better in general.

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I'm not going to calculate the odds, but getting Salvager/CCCC means getting a silver instead of a gold or 5.  And unlike Baron, you cannot gain more early game economy via Baron/EEEC or something.  And I'd argue that wanting 5's is not a slam dunk.  Sure, there are more power 5's than power 3 and 4s.  But many village are 3 and 4.  There are quite a few good Cantrip+'s at 3 and 4.  Some draw is at 3 and 4.  If witch is on the board?  Don't open remodel... but you probably shouldn't open Salvager either.
Well, but you actually want salvager decently often here. In terms of 5s vs 3s and 4s - yes, sometimes a 3 and a 4 is better than a 5, so it's not 'a slam dunk'; but most often, 5>3+4.
Most often, yes.  What 5's exactly do you think merit a Salvager opening?
Almost all of them? I mean, the null position is to open salvager instead of something like silver or remodel. There are some cards I'd want more than salvager there, sure. And there are some 3s and 4s that would swing me to remodel - it's not so much about the 5s. But Hunting party and lab and stables types are probably the MOST favorable to salvager.

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In terms of end game acceleration, sure you'll have a hand of Witch/Salvager/Copper/Copper/Copper where you can get a Province here but not with Remodel... But on the other hand, you'll have hands like Duchy/Province/Remodel/Gold/Province where Remodel is better.  I'm not going to say which is more likely, it all depends on deck composition.  But, they are very very similar for any end game plays.
No, they aren't, and I'll tell you which one happens more - the former, which salvager excels in. It's not just something you can throw your hands up and say, well there's situations for both, ergo they're equal. I mean, sometimes copper is better than silver, but....
Do you have any proof of this?  Maybe in straight 5 card BM games, yes, but in game with attacks I think it swings more towards remodel.  Almost all attacks would seem to lower the chance of having Salvager + $5 card + $3 in your other cards.  And that's the main case where Salvager > Remodel.  Remodel + Gold doesn't need anything else to get a province.  Salvager + a card requires something else in hand.
I don't have proof of this, no, just my experience. I mean, if you're playing games where you end up with 3 card hands every turn, you don't really want either one - and more likely you've played it wrong and it absolutely doesn't matter. But where I'm getting hit by a billion handsize attacks, I'm usually playing a big engine, and I find in these situations I *usually* would rather have salvager. Now, it's not an all the time, or even almost all the time kind of thing - maybe 2-1?

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 3/5)
« Reply #189 on: February 16, 2013, 01:38:11 pm »
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We should have seen Ironworks by now, though.

It was 37th.

You had me real worried for a minute there :P

In that case, it wasn't ranked highly enough! :)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #190 on: February 16, 2013, 01:46:53 pm »
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Definitely agree with WW on Salvager. Really, it's kind of a weaker Masquerade. Masq gives you some trashing, while still allowing you to hit $5 and even $6 with relative ease (it also mildly attacks your opponents, counters their attacks, and combos brutally with other attacks, which is why it's so much better than a lot of other cards). Salvager also gives you some trashing, and helps you hit $5 and $6 without too much of a problem (it exchanges card draw for virtual coin). And then of course it has a lot of utility in the endgame, helping you close things out.

Now, of course it can whiff on your Estates or something, which is a bummer. But really it's a pretty good card. Maybe not so good as it comes out on this ranking, but not all that far off either... and certainly better than Remodel. It's very nearly strictly superior to Remodel, now that I think about the two cards. Remodel turns your Coppers into $2-cost cards, that's the only advantage it has (and that's not even an advantage, depending on what the $2s are).
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #191 on: February 16, 2013, 02:08:07 pm »
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Remodel also adds $2 value to your deck whereas Salvager takes value from cards that it trashes and puts it elsewhere, so Remodel is better when you want to change your Estates into $3s and $4s.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #192 on: February 16, 2013, 05:25:07 pm »
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Should I be surprised that we haven't seen Caravan yet? I didn't think it would be this high.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #193 on: February 16, 2013, 05:30:38 pm »
+1

I think Caravan is much better than it looks.
http://councilroom.com/popular_buys
Sorted by number of turns Caravan is 3rd behind Governor and Wharf.
Obviously this only proves it accelerates games, but it a good indicator of a non attack power card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #194 on: February 16, 2013, 10:48:32 pm »
+1

How is envoy this high? Conspirator seems questionably high as well.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #195 on: February 16, 2013, 11:15:47 pm »
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The only ranking so far that's seemed way way off is Conspirator. Why is such an unreliable card so highly ranked?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #196 on: February 17, 2013, 12:09:45 am »
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The only ranking so far that's seemed way way off is Conspirator. Why is such an unreliable card so highly ranked?

But it isn't unreliable. You just have to plan appropiately.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #197 on: February 17, 2013, 12:16:25 am »
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The only ranking so far that's seemed way way off is Conspirator. Why is such an unreliable card so highly ranked?

But it isn't unreliable. You just have to plan appropiately.
But it's still unreliable and having multiples just compounds the problem. A hand of scheme-2x conspirator-2x smithy is just sad beans. Also it only works on engine boards with +buy, so its actually very often just useless. I think people overrate it because getting it to work is fun and satisfying, much like grand market before the majority of high level players started saying it's not that good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #198 on: February 17, 2013, 12:31:24 am »
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The only ranking so far that's seemed way way off is Conspirator. Why is such an unreliable card so highly ranked?

But it isn't unreliable. You just have to plan appropiately.
But it's still unreliable and having multiples just compounds the problem. A hand of scheme-2x conspirator-2x smithy is just sad beans. Also it only works on engine boards with +buy, so its actually very often just useless. I think people overrate it because getting it to work is fun and satisfying, much like grand market before the majority of high level players started saying it's not that good.

That is true. Without +Buy, it is most often worth ignoring.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #199 on: February 17, 2013, 12:44:57 am »
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But it's still unreliable and having multiples just compounds the problem. A hand of scheme-2x conspirator-2x smithy is just sad beans. Also it only works on engine boards with +buy, so its actually very often just useless. I think people overrate it because getting it to work is fun and satisfying, much like grand market before the majority of high level players started saying it's not that good.

A hand of Scheme plus any 4 terminals is sad beans.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #200 on: February 17, 2013, 12:46:43 am »
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Should I be surprised that we haven't seen Caravan yet? I didn't think it would be this high.

Caravan is very very good.  I'm hopeful for a top 5 for it!  Though, I think it will be more like #8.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #201 on: February 17, 2013, 08:33:53 am »
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The only ranking so far that's seemed way way off is Conspirator. Why is such an unreliable card so highly ranked?

I find it strange you can say this when it fell one rank about Throne Room, a WAY more unreliable card.

And actually, I still feel Throne Room's rank is bonkers. I had it 41st, and I still feel that's about right, maybe a touch higher. In a normal engine you generally need to match you villages with your draw repeatedly. In a TR engine, you still need to match those, but also need to match your TR's with the things you want to TR. It's very good when you can do that, but it's a trap far too often I find.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #202 on: February 17, 2013, 12:17:49 pm »
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Should I be surprised that we haven't seen Caravan yet? I didn't think it would be this high.

Caravan is very very good.  I'm hopeful for a top 5 for it!  Though, I think it will be more like #8.

Well the fact that it can never hurt you is a bonus, it irks me though that it never really gives you any immediate benefit. I forgot how high I ranked it though. Maybe it should be like slightly below #10, which is practically where we are anyway. I don't think it's top 5 material though; we're getting into really powerful game-changing cards by that point.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #203 on: February 17, 2013, 01:21:18 pm »
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Well the fact that it can never hurt you is a bonus, it irks me though that it never really gives you any immediate benefit. I forgot how high I ranked it though. Maybe it should be like slightly below #10, which is practically where we are anyway. I don't think it's top 5 material though; we're getting into really powerful game-changing cards by that point.
Caravan is surprisingly game-changing, too. I would personally put it at #9 and I know I'm underrating it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #204 on: February 17, 2013, 02:42:39 pm »
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The only ranking so far that's seemed way way off is Conspirator. Why is such an unreliable card so highly ranked?

I find it strange you can say this when it fell one rank about Throne Room, a WAY more unreliable card.

And actually, I still feel Throne Room's rank is bonkers. I had it 41st, and I still feel that's about right, maybe a touch higher. In a normal engine you generally need to match you villages with your draw repeatedly. In a TR engine, you still need to match those, but also need to match your TR's with the things you want to TR. It's very good when you can do that, but it's a trap far too often I find.

Okay yeah, I agree TR is overrated here too. But I'm happy with TR connecting to almost anything, and all you have to do is buy a lot of actions, and trashing helps too. But with Conspirator, you better be able to play some villages or cantrips before any Conspirators or else you're screwed.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #205 on: February 17, 2013, 04:53:26 pm »
+2

And actually, I still feel Throne Room's rank is bonkers. I had it 41st, and I still feel that's about right, maybe a touch higher. In a normal engine you generally need to match you villages with your draw repeatedly. In a TR engine, you still need to match those, but also need to match your TR's with the things you want to TR. It's very good when you can do that, but it's a trap far too often I find.

The point of an engine with Throne Room is that you can TR anything in the engine. You are getting more out of the TR than you would have with another buy if you use it on any card costing $4 or more. In any case these engines are not nearly as difficult to build as you say they are because with a high enough action density, it's trivial to start a hand with TR + card that gives +card, +action or 2 TRs + terminal draw.

TR is absurdly powerful in the right kingdoms and I think that its rank is appropriate. It is consistently underrated by this community.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #206 on: February 17, 2013, 06:53:46 pm »
0

The only ranking so far that's seemed way way off is Conspirator. Why is such an unreliable card so highly ranked?

I find it strange you can say this when it fell one rank about Throne Room, a WAY more unreliable card.

And actually, I still feel Throne Room's rank is bonkers. I had it 41st, and I still feel that's about right, maybe a touch higher. In a normal engine you generally need to match you villages with your draw repeatedly. In a TR engine, you still need to match those, but also need to match your TR's with the things you want to TR. It's very good when you can do that, but it's a trap far too often I find.

Okay yeah, I agree TR is overrated here too. But I'm happy with TR connecting to almost anything, and all you have to do is buy a lot of actions, and trashing helps too. But with Conspirator, you better be able to play some villages or cantrips before any Conspirators or else you're screwed.

TR is overrated, but not so overrated.  41 is way too low.  I'd be fine with it in the range of 20-35 ish.  Yeah you can have a TR act as the village of your engine, or it can just act as a duplicate of a card.  Kind of like Band of Misfits.  So you have TR-TR-Smithy... or just Village-TR-Smithy.  It is more board dependent than a lot of cards though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #207 on: February 17, 2013, 10:57:54 pm »
+1

TR is no KC.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #208 on: February 18, 2013, 02:03:34 am »
+1

Worker's Village / Ambassador is the #78 best opening.

Could someone explain how this opening is good? I thought Village opener is generally bad? I can see both WV and Ambassador is great for building engine, but isn't it better to buy WV later?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 1/5)
« Reply #209 on: February 18, 2013, 02:05:36 am »
0

Worker's Village / Ambassador is the #78 best opening.

Could someone explain how this opening is good? I thought Village opener is generally bad? I can see both WV and Ambassador is great for building engine, but isn't it better to buy WV later?

When you open Amb, you are probably building an engine.  WV is good for engines.  It also makes it a bit safer to pick up double amb.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #210 on: February 18, 2013, 02:21:02 am »
+1

TR is no KC.

Of course not. It costs $3 less than KC.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #211 on: February 18, 2013, 01:17:22 pm »
+2

In set 4, most of the cards are within 3-4 spots of my rankings of them, but I have 3 major (10+ ranks) disagreements:

1. Gardens at 21 is crimially low. It's a top 10 card. Its presence totally changes the objective of the game. You now have options to go for a quick rush to piles without any real economy building, getting a bunch of cheap VP, as well as the option to build bigger and use the Gardens as an extra pile of Duchies. Either way, it significantly reduces the value of Provinces, which is a major game-changer. There's a reason it's one of the 4 pillars of the base game.

2. Conspirator at 14 seems even more insane to me. I had it at 37. Sure it provides a lot for a single card play when active, but its role isn't really that important. Most of the time, it's just adding economy to a functional engine. It doesn't add any of the actual functionality. This is something you can get out of things like Treasure Map, which no one thinks of as a good card.

3. Ironmonger at 13 seems way too high. It's at least 10, if not 20 spots too high. Ironmonger can only be reasonbly reliable as a village with strong trashing (or some way of controlling your deck top), otherwise there's too a great a chance that you don't hit an action. It comes with the nice side-effect of being a lab or sifting peddler when you miss, but most of the time you'd rather just have the village. It is also usuable in decks without strong trashing, but not as a village. In this case, it's kind of a single-card-sifting peddler or lab, which sounds good, but a peddler or lab in an untrashed deck really isn't anything to write home about. It's something you'll gladly buy for $4, but not something  that's a huge impact card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #212 on: February 18, 2013, 01:37:56 pm »
+3

3. Ironmonger at 13 seems way too high. It's at least 10, if not 20 spots too high. Ironmonger can only be reasonbly reliable as a village with strong trashing (or some way of controlling your deck top), otherwise there's too a great a chance that you don't hit an action. It comes with the nice side-effect of being a lab or sifting peddler when you miss, but most of the time you'd rather just have the village. It is also usuable in decks without strong trashing, but not as a village. In this case, it's kind of a single-card-sifting peddler or lab, which sounds good, but a peddler or lab in an untrashed deck really isn't anything to write home about. It's something you'll gladly buy for $4, but not something  that's a huge impact card.

Why are you assuming you want your Ironmonger to be a village? While obviously price != value, Peddler with a small drawback is $3, Lab is $5, and Village is $3. So the value of things, at least price wise goes Lab > Peddler > Village. Sure in a kingdom without other villages and strong trashing it can be an invaluable engine component, but it seems to me the weakness of the Ironmonger is that its too often just a 4 cost village with top card filtering (and I mean, if you hit an action you're probably going to keep it), not that it isn't a village enough.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #213 on: February 18, 2013, 04:03:46 pm »
+1

I think (and I'm not sure, I haven't played DA a lot yet) that Ironmonger is particularly strong as an opener, probably with Silver.  If you do that, you've opened with what is functionally either a $4 Peddler that filters your Coppers, or a $4 Lab that filters your Estates.  For an opening buy, you could do a hell of a lot worse for $4.  It seems especially good for when there's no trashing, because it gives you really good early cycling.  That's my impression anyway.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #214 on: February 18, 2013, 04:52:05 pm »
+1

Why are you assuming you want your Ironmonger to be a village? While obviously price != value, Peddler with a small drawback is $3, Lab is $5, and Village is $3.

What's the small drawback? The discard is optional. If anything, Ironmonger is Peddler, Lab, or Village with a small advantage (the card filtering is even better than Lab in the case of a Victory card), and it tends to help the kind of deck that you're building (e.g., if you have a lot of Actions, it'll tend to be a Village more often, and if you have a lot of Treasure / Victory, it'll tend to be Peddler / Lab more often).

EDIT: another way to think of Ironmonger is a Spy without the attack but with a pretty substantial vanilla bonus tacked on. That's pretty strong for a $4 too. Spy's attack is really weak and tends to only be good if you can play it a lot.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 05:47:12 pm by dondon151 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #215 on: February 18, 2013, 05:12:41 pm »
0

When you hit a victory card, Ironmonger is a double lab. Yah, it sometimes hits something you don't want it to hit, but more often than not, if you understand the card well, you can use it for very good benefit. If anything, I feel Ironmonger is underranked her.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #216 on: February 18, 2013, 05:50:29 pm »
0

3. Ironmonger at 13 seems way too high. It's at least 10, if not 20 spots too high. Ironmonger can only be reasonbly reliable as a village with strong trashing (or some way of controlling your deck top), otherwise there's too a great a chance that you don't hit an action. It comes with the nice side-effect of being a lab or sifting peddler when you miss, but most of the time you'd rather just have the village. It is also usuable in decks without strong trashing, but not as a village. In this case, it's kind of a single-card-sifting peddler or lab, which sounds good, but a peddler or lab in an untrashed deck really isn't anything to write home about. It's something you'll gladly buy for $4, but not something  that's a huge impact card.

Why are you assuming you want your Ironmonger to be a village? While obviously price != value, Peddler with a small drawback is $3, Lab is $5, and Village is $3. So the value of things, at least price wise goes Lab > Peddler > Village. Sure in a kingdom without other villages and strong trashing it can be an invaluable engine component, but it seems to me the weakness of the Ironmonger is that its too often just a 4 cost village with top card filtering (and I mean, if you hit an action you're probably going to keep it), not that it isn't a village enough.

I'm not assuming you want it to be a village. I'm saying that the +action part is only useful in a certain type of deck (heavily trashed). Otherwise a random +action is not going to be useful.
I'm also (separately) saying that in untrashed decks, the other options aren't that great either, since then the original +1 card isn't even getting you that much.
I do think it is a card that will basically always be good, but never in a really powerful way, except in kingdoms with dual-types. It just doesn't have the same game-changing ability as attacks, VP cards, strong openers, and things like Tournament and Bridge, which are the kinds of cards that (should, at least in my opinion) populate the top 20 $4 cards. To me that makes it a middle-of-the-pack kind of card.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #217 on: February 18, 2013, 06:39:49 pm »
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I do think it is a card that will basically always be good, but never in a really powerful way, except in kingdoms with dual-types. It just doesn't have the same game-changing ability as attacks, VP cards, strong openers, and things like Tournament and Bridge, which are the kinds of cards that (should, at least in my opinion) populate the top 20 $4 cards. To me that makes it a middle-of-the-pack kind of card.

There aren't enough of these "game-changing" $4 cards to populate the top 20 if we use your definition of the word. Plus you've got a couple of really vanilla cards like Monument and Caravan in the top 11.

I mean, let's go down your list here and figure out what we haven't yet seen:
Attacks: Sea Hag, Young Witch, Marauder are all in the top 11.
VP cards: both Bishop and Monument are in the top 11.
Tournament and Bridge are in the top 11.

2 alt VP cards are in the top 20 (well, Gardens is close, but it's more or less there). Most $4s that haven't been listed already aren't particularly strong openers - they're just good; the strongest that I can think of are Jack and Remake, both of which are in the top 11.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 06:46:03 pm by dondon151 »
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cluckyb

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #218 on: February 18, 2013, 07:05:32 pm »
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Why are you assuming you want your Ironmonger to be a village? While obviously price != value, Peddler with a small drawback is $3, Lab is $5, and Village is $3.

What's the small drawback? The discard is optional. If anything, Ironmonger is Peddler, Lab, or Village with a small advantage (the card filtering is even better than Lab in the case of a Victory card), and it tends to help the kind of deck that you're building (e.g., if you have a lot of Actions, it'll tend to be a Village more often, and if you have a lot of Treasure / Victory, it'll tend to be Peddler / Lab more often).

EDIT: another way to think of Ironmonger is a Spy without the attack but with a pretty substantial vanilla bonus tacked on. That's pretty strong for a $4 too. Spy's attack is really weak and tends to only be good if you can play it a lot.

I was referring to Oasis, the closet thing we'll get to a non price fluctuating Peddler, which has the "small" drawback of discarding a card and costs $3, the same as a Village without any drawbacks. You're right that it is those three with a small advantage of deck filtering.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #219 on: February 18, 2013, 07:06:51 pm »
+1

Okay, so Ironmonger can fit into the top 20, but I think it's borderline at best. Maybe "game-changing" has too strong connotations, but I mean cards that really affect the way the game plays out. Ironmonger is often either just a village in a trashed deck, or something that provides a little money while cycling a money-heavy deck.
Even lesser attacks like Militia and Cutpurse should be higher than it, since the early game attack has a much greater effect on the way the game is going to shape up than a card you mostly amass on spare $4 buys.
Trashers (including Salvager, Spice, and possibly even Moneylender and Trader) should be higher than it since the presence of this trashing is more impactful.
Caravan should be higher than it, because it can be a strategic centerpiece. I don't think Ironmonger can't really do that without dual-types.
And I think Envoy and Smithy and the better villages should be higher than it as well, since they are more likely to be key pieces.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #220 on: February 21, 2013, 03:42:41 am »
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Sorry again for the delay.

I'm really busy currently during the week and the lack of updates has nothing to do with the videos.
I wouldn't have been able to update even without updates. I hope this changes soon.

ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #221 on: February 21, 2013, 04:20:31 am »
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Spy's attack is really weak and tends to only be good if you can play it a lot.

That runs counter to common wisdom that the Spy attack is not spammable. Once you reveal that Estate, you mostly don't want to discard, however many Spies there will be. Of course there are situations where you want to hunt for and deny that one Platinum, but I consider it rare.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $4 cards (Part 4/5)
« Reply #222 on: February 21, 2013, 08:56:37 am »
+1

That runs counter to common wisdom that the Spy attack is not spammable. Once you reveal that Estate, you mostly don't want to discard, however many Spies there will be. Of course there are situations where you want to hunt for and deny that one Platinum, but I consider it rare.

On the contrary, the Spy attack is very spammable, and only strong when it is used as such. Think for a second about why Scrying Pool is such a good engine indicator. A huge part is definitely because if its primary ability to reliably draw lots of cards. The other reason is that it wrecks competing money strategies because it is a card that you'll tend to play ~5 of per turn and it reliably leaves a bad card on top of the opponent's deck. Sometimes it doesn't matter whether it's a Copper or a Victory card, but it's almost always more desirable to leave a Victory card.

Yes, Spy is useless as an attack once you've found a Victory card. However, the goal of the attack in the first place is to find that Victory card, and on average it will take several plays of Spy to find that card. Giving your opponent a 4-card hand every turn is surprisingly strong.
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