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[Drab Emordnilap]

Home Science Kit - $?
Action

+2VP
Trash this card. If you do, gain a Laboratory from the Laboratory Pile.



(Pretend there's a Laboratory Pile. It has 10 Laboratories in it.)


----------------

One of the most difficult parts of making good custom cards is costing them correctly. There are some good guidelines one can follow (Check out the Dominion Fan Card Creation Guide, by rinkworks), but there's no strict formula that will tell you exactly how much a card should cost. Some cards are worth more than the sum of their parts.

EDIT: For clarification, the +2VP is chips, and the Lab comes not from the supply, but from a separate pile.

[soulnet]

Does the card require a Lab pile in the supply? Or there is a Lab pile NOT in the supply? (i.e., if this card is in play, are Labs able to buy necessarily?)

[LastFootnote]

I'm having trouble grasping the card's concept. I get that it's a delayed Laboratory (which is itself weird), but why the +2 VP?

[eHalcyon]

I'm having trouble grasping the card's concept. I get that it's a delayed Laboratory (which is itself weird), but why the +2 VP?

Probably to make it weirder to price.  I don't think this is a "this is my cool card idea" concept.  It's more of a card pricing exercise.

In that spirit, first thing we do is look at comparable cards.  Skipping over the VP, the first comparable card is Feast.  Like Feast, the HSK trashes itself to gain a card costing up to $5.  However, it is far more limited.  It will only gain Laboratories, and KC-HSK will only get you one Lab.  So this card is strictly inferior to Feast... until you consider the VP.

Another card to look at is Laboratory itself.  Since HSK just gains Lab, it is like a delayed Lab.  Why not just buy that Lab directly?  Therefore this is strictly inferior to Lab as well... again, until you consider the VP.

I assume that the +2VP is for VP tokens.  What is a good way to think about this?  Well, you could imagine that it is a 2VP Victory card that removes itself from the deck.  That sounds like Island!  Except instead of removing another dead card with it, it gives a Lab instead.  Is it better to set aside an Estate or to have a Lab to draw one extra card (like that Estate you didn't set aside)?  Hard to say.  Depends on the Kingdom.  Oh, and the +2VP can be KC'd, so there's that to consider.

Using all that as a basis, intuition makes me think it should cost $5, maybe $6. 

[soulnet]

With Island you have to connect it with a dead card to actually remove it, so its not as good as it always removes a dead card (but I think if you are considering opening HSK vs opening Island, the probability of it removing an Estate is pretty high). Its also comparable to Nobles, which if you get two in Hand, is like a Lab (although more flexible) and also gives 2VP.

I think this is definitively between 4 and 5, but not sure.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Consider a card "Noble Lab" that is an Action/Victory that gives +2 Cards +1 Action. This is probably a little better than Nobles.

Home Science Kit is just like the above card, except:
1. It's not actually a VP card so it doesn't combo with Crossroads, etc.
2. The first time you play it, you don't get the +2 Cards +1 Action (thereafter, you do get the +2 Cards +1 Action since the card is replaced with Lab)
3. The pile has 10 cards in it instead of 8 or 12.

So I think it should probably cost $6.

[Tables]

I think this card is very similar to Island. Island is a one shot which permanently gives 2 VPs, and after playing will permanently decrease your deck size by 1. Home Science Kit is a one shot which when played, permanently gives 2 VPs and psuedo-decreases your deck size by 1. There's obviously some differences between the two, notably I think having a Lab is a stronger effect than removing a card, but overall, I don't think one is hugely better than the other. So $4 seems correct.

[Robz888]

I believe the correct answer has to be $5, though this is quite an interesting problem.

It has to be worth more than Island; instead of removing a single bad card from your deck, it gains you a Lab. I think having a Lab is better than losing a single bad card.

At $5, this card is a delayed Laboratory that gives 2VP. Are you willing to delay your Laboratory one shuffle in order to earn 2VP? You might be.

[HiveMindEmulator]

At $5, this card is a delayed Laboratory that gives 2VP. Are you willing to delay your Laboratory one shuffle in order to earn 2VP? You might be.

I have a feeling you will often be willing to do so. If this card is in the kingdom, that's 20 extra points available, plus there is a Lab, so there's a good shot at engine if there's any trashing. And with trashing and a Lab, you'll shuffle often enough that the 1 shuffle delay is not that big of a deal. I think this card is overall more powerful than Lab. That said, it might still work at $5, but can't be any lower. I'd like it better at $6 I think because then you have to think about building up to buy it rather than just mindlessly spamming it.

EDIT: Maybe the fact that it's terminal makes it okay at $5.

[Powerman]

I feel the only problem with it being at $4 is if lots are gained via Ironworks, Workshop, etc.  Otherwise, I feel 4 would be no problem.

[AJD]

I feel the only problem with it being at $4 is if lots are gained via Ironworks, Workshop, etc.  Otherwise, I feel 4 would be no problem.

Hmm, you can gain loads of Islands (self-removing sources of 2VP) via Ironworks, and you can gain loads of Caravans (delayed Labs)....

[Robz888]

At $5, this card is a delayed Laboratory that gives 2VP. Are you willing to delay your Laboratory one shuffle in order to earn 2VP? You might be.

I have a feeling you will often be willing to do so. If this card is in the kingdom, that's 20 extra points available, plus there is a Lab, so there's a good shot at engine if there's any trashing. And with trashing and a Lab, you'll shuffle often enough that the 1 shuffle delay is not that big of a deal. I think this card is overall more powerful than Lab. That said, it might still work at $5, but can't be any lower. I'd like it better at $6 I think because then you have to think about building up to buy it rather than just mindlessly spamming it.

EDIT: Maybe the fact that it's terminal makes it okay at $5.

I definitely agree it doesn't work at $4. $6 just seems like a bit to steep for this, since that's quite a price threshold.

[Grujah]

At $5, this card is a delayed Laboratory that gives 2VP. Are you willing to delay your Laboratory one shuffle in order to earn 2VP? You might be.

This is what I think too.

Also, can opponent screw you by buying out labs before you use all of these ?

[Morgrim7]

At $5, this card is a delayed Laboratory that gives 2VP. Are you willing to delay your Laboratory one shuffle in order to earn 2VP? You might be.

This is what I think too.

Also, can opponent screw you by buying out labs before you use all of these ?

that would be kinda hard

[Drab Emordnilap]

For clarification, the +2VP is chips, and the Lab comes not from the supply, but from a separate pile.

[Tables]

Is getting a Lab really that much better than removing a dead card from your deck? I know it's probably better, since removing a dead card is like having a Lab that always appears with said card, while having a real Lab, it could appear anywhere, which is generally more useful. And also things like KC, TR and drawing your deck are important. But on the other hand, Island has two types, gives you the 2 VPs instantly, not just when you play it, and Labs can help a lot less with a BM+drawing type deck (although that's a minor point as you probably don't really want either in such a deck).

I think this might be better than Island in general, but not that much better. I really don't know if it'd be enough to be a bad $5, or if it'd be a good $4.

Something to think about I guess, might be, how would you price an action that just always gave +2 VPs and did nothing else? I know such an action would be bad for the game, but it's just a thought. Then go to the other extreme and how would you price a Lab? I don't know if a +2 VP card would be worth $5 - it certainly wouldn't be $6 - but I think it'd be very strong at $4. This however gives you the stuff the way around you don't want it - VPs early, draw late.

[Robz888]

I just want to say I really, really like this thought exercise, Drab. And this was a very cool theoretical card to prompt the discussion.

[LastFootnote]

I wonder how this would change if, instead of always being Laboratory, you gained a copy from a random $5 Kingdom plie not in the Supply (the same card throughout the game).

[Morgrim7]

It would be pretty swingy...what if one game it was...like Hunting Parties, and one was Counting Houses.

[LastFootnote]

It would be pretty swingy...what if one game it was...like Hunting Parties, and one was Counting Houses.

I'm not sure 'swingy' is the best term. Usually that means it's luck-based in usage. I wouldn't call Young Witch swingy just because it's worse with a good bane.

[Obi Wan Bonogi]

I think its an interesting $5 cost for sure.  It will be highly contested some games and in other games it will be an afterthought.  Is it possible to word it so that it doesn't stack with Throne Room*?

*Ignore this, I can't read.