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Author Topic: Reaction cards  (Read 2262 times)

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bourgman

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Reaction cards
« on: September 15, 2011, 10:57:36 am »
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I think Isotropic does it wrong, but there's no clear answer.

My opponent plays Pirate Ship.  Am I allowed to reveal my Moat after he decides whether he's attacking or taking $?  I believe that would be in the spirit of the game, since the person playing PS takes the risk when deciding if he should attack or take $, because I might not have treasure on the top 2 cards of my deck.  Furthermore, if I have a moat and reveal it before he decides, the risk of Pirate ship is eliminated.  PS is already a ridiculously powerful card and I think the attacker's decision is made simultaneously with the playing of the action and thus the moat card can be revealed after the decision is made.

Has there been anything clearly posted about the resolution of reaction abilities?
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Deadlock39

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2011, 11:07:33 am »
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I am pretty sure the Isotropic implementation is correct.

Also, if you are playing 2 player games (perhaps you are not) like most of Isotropic, PS is definitely not a "ridiculously powerful card".  It has a win rate of 84% which is the 6th7th worst of all cards on Councilroom (unless I missed some, I counted them pretty fast.)(Thanks TINAS I didn't know about the ordering.)

http://councilroom.com/popular_buys
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 01:03:48 pm by Deadlock39 »
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guided

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2011, 11:09:26 am »
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1. I promise you Pirate Ship is not ridiculously powerful!
2. Moat says "When another player plays an Attack card". If you choose not to reveal it at that moment, you don't get another chance later. You can't change your mind and decide to reveal your Moat after the attacker makes their choice any more than you can choose to reveal it after the Pirate Ship starts pulling its cards off the top of your deck.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2011, 11:26:10 am »
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I am pretty sure the Isotropic implementation is correct.

Also, if you are playing 2 player games (perhaps you are not) like most of Isotropic, PS is definitely not a "ridiculously powerful card".  It has a win rate of 84% which is the 6th worst of all cards on Councilroom (unless I missed some, I counted them pretty fast.)

http://councilroom.com/popular_buys

6 cards have a worse win rate, making it the seventh worst (not including the leaked unreleased card ;)). You can order lists on Council Room by clicking the headings of the columns you wish to sort by.
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Brando Commando

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2011, 12:05:58 pm »
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What the other guys said.

I think you (the OP) see PS as a risk because if you choose to attack, then the person can reveal a moat and you've whiffed, so that's a fun gambling aspect of PS.

But PS can whiff anyway if the attacker turns up two non-treasures. And if he hits and trashes a copper ... that's probably only a wash for both players.

It's enough to make you feel bad for the poor PS.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2011, 02:47:33 pm »
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I actually got into this argument at home because this came up. I knew that reaction cards are played first before resolving the rest of the effect being reacted to. I had a hard time sifting through all of the rules, but a friend found it before me. I believe it's actually listed under the description for Moat. Donald had much of this game planned out already, so many of these rules take into consideration future cards (such as attack cards that give a choice).

So, check that rule book and reread Moat, I believe. I'm going off of memory, and it may be faulty. I hope not.

And I'll ditto people who say that Pirate Ship is not extremely powerful. I will tack on a caveat that in some situations, it's a must-have, but it generally is not that necessary and can sometimes actually help your opponents than it helps you.
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Epoch

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2011, 04:51:17 pm »
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Bear in mind that the OP may have more experience with multiplayer instead of two-player, and that Pirate Ship has a much greater chance of burning your money away and leaving you in a pin in multiplayer than it does in two-player.
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guided

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2011, 05:19:47 pm »
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Pirate Ship is certainly more powerful in multiplayer than 2p, but I won't allow that it's ridiculously powerful ;)

It's definitely a card that can take over and change the face of a game in 4p, more than most other cards. But it doesn't always happen, and it's not especially common that experienced players will find it's optimal for all of them to play Pirate Ship.
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Donald X.

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2011, 07:11:37 pm »
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Isotropic has it right.

By far the simplest way for Moat to work is to have it revealed before the attack card does anything, including choices that may end up with the attack not actually doing anything to you. We don't need to make any distinction between the kinds of things an action card can do, or ask what counts as hurting you and what doesn't; you just play Moat before anything happens.

Now reaction cards like Watchtower can happen in the middle of an attack, because they look for a very specific thing happening.
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Epoch

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2011, 07:29:23 pm »
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Note also that while Moat being revealed first is kind of a disadvantage in this case -- your opponent knows to take his money from Pirate Ship -- with Horse Traders, it's an advantage that it works that way.  Your opponent can't help but give you card advantage if he uses Pirate Ship and you have a Horse Traders, even if he doesn't even WANT to actually attack you with his Pirate Ship (ditto Minion).
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guided

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 07:42:38 pm »
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I'm still waiting for the day somebody tries to build a Minion engine against me when I have Horse Traders (and probably some Villages or whatever) ;D
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rod-

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2011, 09:48:56 am »
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Dstu tried that against me recenty ; I'm pretty sure he'd still have won if not for 1st player advantage.  I may have gone too heavy on the HTs without enough +action/card support.
 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110914-133329-1ef876ea.html 
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Fangz

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2011, 11:38:47 am »
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I can't really see horse traders as a reason to ignore minions entirely. It's just a good supplementary card.
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guided

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2011, 11:45:45 am »
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I would say owning at least one copy of Horse Traders against a Minion engine is almost a no-brainer. Using Horse Traders as an awesome, world-beating, awe-inspiring defense to Minion that you will tell your children and grandchildren about will require some other support cards of course ;)
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