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Author Topic: The +2 cards engine  (Read 6349 times)

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philosophyguy

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The +2 cards engine
« on: January 20, 2013, 03:49:26 pm »
+1

Common wisdom for a long time was that +2 cards wasn't enough to build a draw engine around. But lately, I've been seeing more instances in which top players make dominant engines out of +2 card drawing, like Moat and Stewart. So, my overall question is: what needs to change in order to make a +2 cards engine deck viable, vs. a +3 or more card engine deck?

The biggest thing I noticed in game logs (and Councilroom isn't working for me right now, so I can't pull up examples) is Peddler-type cards that provide money without increasing the effective deck size, but surely there's more to making this kind of deck function reliably than cantrip coin.
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jonts26

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2013, 03:55:28 pm »
+5

Why does everyone keep calling it stewart lately?

Anyway, you can make a +2 card engine as long as you have free actions and at least decent trashing or really good sifting. With plenty of actions +2 cards is bascially a lab. Which is pretty good. Steward is helpful cause it provides the trashing for you. Obviously +3 cards is twice as good as +2 cards, but when the engine is good enough, you make due. Oh also Oracle deserves special mention, since it only draws 2 cards but it allows it's own good sifting. It can actually be just as good if not better than smithy for draw engines.
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soulnet

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2013, 03:59:43 pm »
0

Also, I'm not even close to be a top player, but for KC games, +2 cards is usually good enough, if you can pull it off fast enough. Probably just the presence of KC and Steward is enough to go engine in most cases.
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DG

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2013, 04:20:24 pm »
+2

The village card makes a lot of difference to your capability. If you set up a moat/festival deck you can build it quite big and not need many treasures, if any. If you set up a farming village/courtyard deck then you slowly improve your hand size and filter victory cards from your hand.

You can also consider the payload of your deck as well. A drawing engine with +2 cards is unlikely to set up a big coppersmith turn with many copper in hand. Incrementally filling a deck with provinces and duchies is also likely to break any weak drawing engine.
A +2 card engine would be good however at drawing through a deck to deliver many highways, improving the engine each turn until a big finish.
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Qvist

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2013, 04:23:56 pm »
0

I suppose that a +2 card engine is viable as long as you have a high density of good cards. So a good trasher like Remake or Chapel on the board is very useful. Steward itself let you also trash decently and can then later be used for the draw.

heron

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 05:25:13 pm »
0

Yeah, I think strong trashing is incredibly helpful for these engines, that was the +2 cards is actually useful. Once I pulled off a bridge megaturn with throne room as my village and moat as my draw thanks to chapel.

Edit: Note that I had some cantrips in my deck as well.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 07:19:37 pm by heron »
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dondon151

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 06:02:11 pm »
+3

Do not try to build an engine where your draw is +2 cards and your village generates neither money and reduces your handsize.

I tried a University-Inn-Oracle engine once, and it was baaad.
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jomini

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2013, 12:44:09 am »
0



There are several general types of +2 cards engines:
1. Village (or draw, though I don't think we have any of these yet) has +cash. These are essentially cantrip in nature. Festival -> Moat is the same as a Grand Market. Making an engine out of it is, in theory, no worse than trashing your deck and massing Gm (or say Peddlers), if you have the means to set this up quick, make it reliable, or both it can actually beat racing to Gm (it is, however, a rare setup where swapping to Gm isn't more reliable later). Things like Scheme or Haggler can make this viable.

2. Village has +cards. This makes a +2 cards setup to be a lab. As with above, it is less reliable than just buying labs and unlike above, Lab isn't a power card. You need a really good reason for limited live draw. Something like Fortress/Forge/Courtyard can work really well to setup a quick Forge run.

3. Village or draw has discard. Take something like Inn/Moat. In this case you will never increase your hand size, but because you can use Inn to sift out the bad cards it does (in theory) let you eventually get to a power 5 card hand (e.g. Plat, Plat, Plat, Plat, Squire). There are actually a decent number of setups where this sort of thing works; you can also have the discard on the draw (e.g. Young Witch without the ability to give curses). This plays like a better, though again less reliable, version of spy. Works best when you have one or two painfully powerful cards to hit.

4. Edge cases. If you do just spin your wheels it can work for a few edge cases, mostly from cornucopia. Horn of Plenty is happy with more cards in play, Fairgrounds works better with even crappy wheel spinning engines that allow it to bulk point count, and Harvest likes more diverse junk in the trash ... these are extremely rare to be viable.

So, as noted throughout the big problem is that most of these setups really are just less reliable, more expensive (in terms of cash and more importantly often - time) ways to do something some other card already does. Given that Dominion is pretty good at appropriately pricing its cards, it isn't too often that you'd prefer paying more than list price on massed engine components. Sometimes, the or the village does something else, making it more viable (e.g. Festival/Oracle gets +buys, sifts, and gains cash) than a simple alternative (e.g. Oracle BM). Other times, you can more quickly setup a weird +2 card engine than power out BM (e.g. Bazaar/Moat with a Haggler out). Trashing can also make this far easier to get rolling. So it is certainly doable, but keep in mind that most village/+2 cards options are effectively some other card if you wouldn't want that other card you generally don't want its less reliable engine equivalent.
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dondon151

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 12:58:48 am »
+1

3. Village or draw has discard. Take something like Inn/Moat.

Like I said before, this is really bad. You basically have control over what only 3-4 cards in your hand consist of until you play the last terminal Moat. If you have any non-drawing payload (and a lot of gainers or +buy cards are non-drawing), then it becomes even worse to manage your hand. A particularly bad case for this kind of engine is where you, for example, play 2 Inns and fail to draw into your Moat. Then you're left with a 3-card hand with which you're not going to be able to hit your target coin threshold.
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serakfalcon

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 01:06:34 am »
0

Quote
A particularly bad case for this kind of engine is where you, for example, play 2 Inns and fail to draw into your Moat. Then you're left with a 3-card hand with which you're not going to be able to hit your target coin threshold.
If there are no good drawers the only time I would buy a inn is right before the reshuffle, so I could get one mega engine turn out of it, then use the Inn to sift out the provinces that I just bought to keep them from slowing down my deck. Definitely not a good engine card if all you have are +2s like moat!
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soulnet

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2013, 07:06:48 am »
0

If you do something like buy Inn before each reshuffle, considering that reshuffles will occur more often due to all the drawing, an Inn-based engine has a really good number of this mega-turns (which are not so mega). The problem is that the sifting does not get along well with the highly concentrated dose of actions itself provides.
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jomini

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2013, 12:01:48 pm »
0

3. Village or draw has discard. Take something like Inn/Moat.

Like I said before, this is really bad. You basically have control over what only 3-4 cards in your hand consist of until you play the last terminal Moat. If you have any non-drawing payload (and a lot of gainers or +buy cards are non-drawing), then it becomes even worse to manage your hand. A particularly bad case for this kind of engine is where you, for example, play 2 Inns and fail to draw into your Moat. Then you're left with a 3-card hand with which you're not going to be able to hit your target coin threshold.

Thank you for restating the obvious and ignoring the point. Yes these are rare and yes you do lose control over two cards, that would be why, "Works best when you have one or two painfully powerful cards to hit". We get it, most of the time this is just spinning your wheels, but with the right setup of high variance cards this can actually be better than BM.


Take something like Develop/Moat/Inn/Vineyards/Rats. You have exactly two cards you need to hit to build your point matrix - Develop to gain an action and Potion to buy Vineyard, Rats away everything that isn't an action, potion, or Vineyard.

Like any engine, this type can also use cantrips, so playing Moat/Inn/Highway/Ironworks/Market square can do you quite well. You can either sift Hwy's, Iw, and Mrksqr's into the discard & buy an Inn to setup a megaturn next turn ... or you can sift our your starting coppers & green to hit a megaturn. Sifting like this is a poor man's trashing. Yeah it isn't as reliable as a better engine, but if it is the only way to get a high enough effective Hwy density or play enough cantrips for a big HoP turn it can beat weak alternatives.
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qmech

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2013, 02:21:14 pm »
0

I have twice tried to chain Goons when Inn was the village and Horse Traders the only source of draw that I didn't forget to buy before it was all gone.

It works about as well as you'd expect.
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Morgrim7

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2013, 08:28:37 am »
0

okay, can somebody please explain something to me? Did some forum joke arise while I was gone? Is Steward now spelled with a T now, or are there just a lot of typos going on?
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GendoIkari

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2013, 08:45:51 am »
0

okay, can somebody please explain something to me? Did some forum joke arise while I was gone? Is Steward now spelled with a T now, or are there just a lot of typos going on?

Pretty sure the OP is just a type, along with whatever posts Jonts is referring to in his reply. But now it's this.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2013, 09:21:30 am »
0

okay, can somebody please explain something to me? Did some forum joke arise while I was gone? Is Steward now spelled with a T now, or are there just a lot of typos going on?

Pretty sure the OP is just a type, along with whatever posts Jonts is referring to in his reply. But now it's this.

I just did a search, and found that rspeer made this post in the Really bad card ideas thread.  Probably referencing Jon Stewart?
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2013, 10:29:11 am »
0

Pretty sure the OP is just a type,

A type of what?

A TYPE OF WHAT
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GendoIkari

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2013, 10:31:45 am »
0

Pretty sure the OP is just a type,

A type of what?

A TYPE OF WHAT

lulz... pretty sure that's not the first time I've typo'd the word "typo" here.
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Powerman

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2013, 04:32:14 pm »
0

I think +2 cards can work well with Bazaar as its village.  Other villages, not so much.

I'd say the exception is Festival can work with Oracle.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2013, 04:47:07 pm »
0

It's tough with Embassy, Vault, or Courtyard, because these cards are very good for money strategies, but with the other cards that net +2 cards, it's still reasonable to build an engine if there is enough general engine support.
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Destierro

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2013, 05:33:18 pm »
0

I had a very successful moat (!) engine of all things. It worked only because there was incredibly strong village support in the form of fishing village.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20130122-124442-ec88b00c.html

So it is possible, but most of the time not recommended. It really needs trashing, end game acceleration, and strong villages.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2013, 07:41:47 pm »
0

I just made a successful Throne Room and Witch/Moat engine.  The moats came from Remodeling Curses.
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Avalanchian

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Re: The +2 cards engine
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2013, 08:05:59 am »
0

I just made a successful Throne Room and Witch/Moat engine.  The moats came from Remodeling Curses.

Just give me a moment to picture the horror on your opponent's face when you transformed their vicious cursing into useful engine components.

..................

Okay I'm good now. The sadistic streak is satisfied for an hour or so.
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