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[Zem]

I just played an interesting game (against WanderingWinder), and I am trying to figure out what happened there.

cards in supply: Bazaar, Coppersmith, Duchess, Gardens, Ill-Gotten Gains, Outpost, Pawn, Stables, Steward, and Venture
(cards in green where bought exclusively by me, cards in red by my oponent)

I thought this was a slam-dunk Ill-Gotten Gains / Garden rush. I had a pretty lucky start with 5/2, and got every Garden
But WW beat me with a Bazaar/Stewart engine, buying every Province.

#1 WanderingWinder: 51 points (8 Provinces and a Duchy); 20 turns
                 opening: Steward / Steward
                 [29 cards] 8 Bazaars, 5 Pawns, 3 Stewards, 1 Duchess, 3 Silvers, 1 Duchy, 8 Provinces

#2 Zem: 38 points (8 Gardens [48 cards], a Duchy, and 3 Estates); 19 turns
     opening: Ill-Gotten Gains / Pawn
     [48 cards] 8 Gardens, 7 Ill-Gotten Gains, 4 Pawns, 1 Duchess, 24 Coppers, 3 Estates, 1 Duchy

I had the impression that Ill-Gotten Gains was a strong attack in addition to being a great gardens enabler; and Stewart a far too weak trasher to just shrug it off.  Is that wrong or did I play it incorrectly?

[WanderingWinder]

Well, I think the engine's got a very good chance to have it cooked anyway (stewards really are pretty nice), but you did play it a bit wrong. More IGGs, fewer gardens early, since I am not contesting you. You played real well for how you would do it in a mirror, but if I'm not playing mirror, you want more economy, more gains (more IGGs early does both of these things), more longevity, and you are going to want to be able to get that three piles down on your terms. As is, you empty one, and then you're not in position pretty much at all to get the others down.

[Robz888]

If the engine really does have it here, that saddens me. The IGG/Gardens thing has such cool support in the form of both Duchess, and more importantly, Coppersmith.

[heron]

How does coppersmith help? And duchess doesn't help either; why would you ever buy a duchy? I think that the engine has an edge over IGG/Gardens here, simply because the curses from IGG don't hurt very much.

And yeah, you want to buy all the IGG's before starting on the gardens usually, unless you have $4. (I don't know whether you did this or not, just guessing by WW comment.)

[dondon151]

If I were WW, I would have gotten an Outpost, too.

[WanderingWinder]

If I were WW, I would have gotten an Outpost, too.

Depending on how it went, I would have. As it is, I don't like it so much. I don't have particularly good draw, so I am quite struggling to get through things by the time the game is getting close to an end; the three card hands are going to hurt that a fair bit, especially since I will end up having to play more stewards for cards rather than money; my limitation on actions was an issue, too, if I recall correctly (which may not be the case at this point). But the biggest thing was that it was getting to the point I needed to get the points back up quick, and then it was to the point where I could just end the game.
Probably outpost would have won, too.

[zahlman]

How does coppersmith help?

You're going to gain a lot of Copper from IGG. IGG gains in hand, so you can play Coppersmith, then get $3 out of your IGG, which helps towards occasionally grabbing a Province.

And duchess doesn't help either; why would you ever buy a duchy?

Maybe you need the points?

I think that the engine has an edge over IGG/Gardens here, simply because the curses from IGG don't hurt very much.

I think it depends on how consistently the IGG player is hitting 5 (which tends to self-synergize). But more importantly, on how quickly the engine player is hitting 5, snagging those Bazaars, and getting to the point of being able to play Stewards often and keep the deck clean.

[Robz888]

I guess the problem is the IGG/support doesn't really line up with Gardens in this case. Coppersmith is great with IGG (like, really, seriously great, I'm not kidding folks), but it doesn't help you get Gardens. You could buy Gardens without Coppersmith. It helps you get Provinces... but uh it's pretty tricky here whether/when you want Provinces. Because you could just be helping the engine guy run down the Provinces. Now, that's not automatically the case, because you know if you end up stealing like 3 Provinces or something then hey, maybe sprinkled in with a few Gardens you're in a good place to win. But you have to be really sensitive to whether you want this sucker to end soon or in a long, long time. And it's not like you can just use the Coppersmith to buy double Gardens, since you don't have the +buy (and you're never going to line it up with a Pawn or something, and still have all the Copper in hand, and the Coppersmith, you shouldn't even try).