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Author Topic: Return of What's Missing?  (Read 4196 times)

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Anon79

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Return of What's Missing?
« on: September 15, 2011, 08:30:37 am »
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Apologies if this has been posted before.

What one card is missing from this list?

Tactician
Counting House
Watchtower
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Buggz

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2011, 08:45:44 am »
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This seems too obvious but
Library?

Feels like fishing a red herring.
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Anon79

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2011, 08:52:23 am »
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This seems too obvious but
Library?

Feels like fishing a red herring.
Not quite... close, but it doesn't quite work...
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DStu

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2011, 09:08:53 am »
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If it's Cards that, when played twice by a Golem will never give you more benefit than they can give you the first time already one could construct some cases where Library profits from the second play , for example if you set aside some action card, than only draw up to 6 cards and take the action card with the second Library. Of course, if you knew your exact deck before, you could have seen that you will only draw 6 cards and don't set the one aside the first time, but that would mean you have ideal tracking of your deck, so the Library saves you this and this is a small benefit that you get from playing it twice. While only picking up n-2 Coppers the first time and than 2 the second time with the CH is unnessessary.

Also, you could use this trick to force a reshuffle, and pick up an additional card with the second Lib

So if that's the category, I would nominate Secret Chamber .
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 09:12:42 am by DStu »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2011, 09:17:12 am »
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Outpost?
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DStu

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2011, 09:19:04 am »
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Outpost?

playing Outpost twice with Golem actually helps you, becasue two Outposts are set aside and not only one, so maybe one more bad card misses a shuffle...
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2011, 09:23:38 am »
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Outpost?

playing Outpost twice with Golem actually helps you, becasue two Outposts are set aside and not only one, so maybe one more bad card misses a shuffle...

True. But the exact same thing can be said of Tactician. If you plan to end the game on your Tactician turn, you're not going to benefit from drawing another Tactician.
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DStu

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2011, 09:29:32 am »
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Outpost?

playing Outpost twice with Golem actually helps you, becasue two Outposts are set aside and not only one, so maybe one more bad card misses a shuffle...

True. But the exact same thing can be said of Tactician. If you plan to end the game on your Tactician turn, you're not going to benefit from drawing another Tactician.

The second Tactician will not be set aside, as it only has a Duration effect if you discard 1 or more cards. You can't do this, so the Tactician will not do anything and not be set aside. The Outpost does not have a condition to have a Duration effect, only the Duration effect is 'nothing' when there has been played a Outpost before.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2011, 09:32:09 am »
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Outpost?

playing Outpost twice with Golem actually helps you, becasue two Outposts are set aside and not only one, so maybe one more bad card misses a shuffle...

True. But the exact same thing can be said of Tactician. If you plan to end the game on your Tactician turn, you're not going to benefit from drawing another Tactician.

The second Tactician will not be set aside, as it only has a Duration effect if you discard 1 or more cards. You can't do this, so the Tactician will not do anything and not be set aside. The Outpost does not have a condition to have a Duration effect, only the Duration effect is 'nothing' when there has been played a Outpost before.

Right, okay. Conceded.
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Anon79

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2011, 09:32:42 am »
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Secret Chamber was indeed what I was thinking of, with DStu's reasoning. The exact phrase I have in mind is that the second copy does nothing that the first can't do.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 09:36:06 am by Anon79 »
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AJD

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 01:37:02 pm »
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Hm, DStu's corner case involving Library is something I hadn't thought of, and probably means that that that card should have been excluded from <a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=262.0">the first "What's Missing" puzzle</a> as well, yes? (...Which was basically the same puzzle as this one.)
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Anon79

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2011, 09:59:45 pm »
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So indeed this puzzle has been posted before. Oops.
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Lhurgoyf

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2011, 07:49:13 am »
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As far as I know, the second Tactician will be set aside like any other duration card. It just has no effect, if you discarded no card. And this condition is only checked at the beginning of your next turn.

Am I right?
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AJD

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2011, 11:14:31 am »
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No, because of an easy-to-miss clause in the rules that says that you clean up a Duration card at the end of "the last turn in which it does something". If you don't discard anything with Tactician, it's not going to do anything next turn, so you clean it up this turn.

(This rule doesn't apply to Outpost—i.e., if you play Outpost in such a way that you don't get an extra turn from it, it still stays in play until the next turn you do have—but I don't really understand why.)
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biopower

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Re: Return of What's Missing?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2011, 06:51:40 pm »
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Here's a quote from guided on the TR/Tactician thread which should explain it.

TR/Tactician: TR doesn't stay out. The "if you do" is resolved on the current turn, and since you "don't", the 2nd play is known at play time to have no next turn effect, so TR isn't actually modifying the Tactician as of the cleanup phase.

TR/Outpost: TR does stay out. Outpost's "can't cause you to have more than 2 turns" clause doesn't resolve until the moment it attempts to give you another turn. If it's giving you a 2nd turn in a row, that's fine. If it's giving you a 3rd turn in a row, it fizzles. The card doesn't "know" it will fizzle until that clause actually resolves, so the TR is modifying it and must stay out.

Consider, if some (unlikely) hypothetical effect made it possible for another player to have a turn between your 2nd turn and your 3rd turn, the Outpost would actually give you both extra turns. Whereas the "if you do" clause of Tactician has come and gone as soon as you finish playing it, so nothing could ever cause the 2nd play of Tactician to actually give you its bonus.

There were specific rulings from Donald on BGG about both of these combos. Last I checked, isotropic had a bug where TR would stay out with Tactician. It doesn't matter much.
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