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DG

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2013, 09:22:59 pm »
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What you should be looking for here is to play familiars to curse your opponent's deck, use apothecaries to draw copper and leave curses/estates on top of your deck, and cleverly use a lookout to trash those bad cards. Once you can do that you can then create an economy and do fancy things with extra golems and council rooms and outpost. Any turn where you trash a copper and buy a silver is essentially wasted since you lose economy, drawing power, and deck control from the apothecaries. The second lookout and island therefore gave no economy and very little long term benefit.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 09:24:13 pm by DG »
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2013, 12:15:37 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/17/game-20130117-211126-1a6c1278.html

I generally went for big money, but my opponent started going duchy/duke.  I started buying the duchies as well, and the dukes when they ran out.  I managed to get 4 provinces while he got one, but he still won.  I wasn't sure I would win if I got the last duke, but I knew I would be worse off if I didn't.  I bought it, and he won.  Maybe it all started when he got the witch on his first turn...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2013, 12:26:43 am »
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And my first game ever buying curses:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/17/game-20130117-212247-cfd9d6e5.html

I was trying BM with a lot of actions (with the fishing village being the +actions giver).  I would have gone for an engine, but with the sea hag and no trashing, I didn't think that would be feasible.  After getting three province and the fishing villages ran out, I stupidly thought only one more pile needed to be gone for the game to be over.  I bought all of the estates, then the game kept going.  I realized there were only four more curses left, so I bought them and ended the game.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2013, 12:28:14 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/17/game-20130117-211126-1a6c1278.html

I generally went for big money, but my opponent started going duchy/duke.  I started buying the duchies as well, and the dukes when they ran out.  I managed to get 4 provinces while he got one, but he still won.  I wasn't sure I would win if I got the last duke, but I knew I would be worse off if I didn't.  I bought it, and he won.  Maybe it all started when he got the witch on his first turn...

In general, if you don't think you can buy all the Provinces on your own, or you can't end the game before your opponent gets too many Duchies/Dukes, you're better off going for Duchies and Dukes. If you have more than half the Duchies, then Dukes are worth nearly as much as Provinces, for much cheaper.

Additionally, there is no need to go Sea Hag here (or like ever when Masquerade is around). Masquerade will do a good enough job of redistributing Curses (via the passing) that it's not worth sacrificing your economy just to get Sea Hag, which does nothing other than generate Curses. It's much better to have Silver, which will let you start to buy stronger cards.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2013, 12:33:01 am »
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And my first game ever buying curses:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/17/game-20130117-212247-cfd9d6e5.html

I was trying BM with a lot of actions (with the fishing village being the +actions giver).  I would have gone for an engine, but with the sea hag and no trashing, I didn't think that would be feasible.  After getting three province and the fishing villages ran out, I stupidly thought only one more pile needed to be gone for the game to be over.  I bought all of the estates, then the game kept going.  I realized there were only four more curses left, so I bought them and ended the game.

There is trashing, albeit only single-card trashing, from Apprentice. It's not the fastest, but usually you don't have to be so fast in Sea Hag games, which tend to be a bit slow. And since Wharf lets you start with large hands, you really don't need to trash that much to get a reasonably reliable engine going.
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sudgy

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2013, 01:16:06 am »
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And my first game ever buying curses:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/17/game-20130117-212247-cfd9d6e5.html

I was trying BM with a lot of actions (with the fishing village being the +actions giver).  I would have gone for an engine, but with the sea hag and no trashing, I didn't think that would be feasible.  After getting three province and the fishing villages ran out, I stupidly thought only one more pile needed to be gone for the game to be over.  I bought all of the estates, then the game kept going.  I realized there were only four more curses left, so I bought them and ended the game.

There is trashing, albeit only single-card trashing, from Apprentice. It's not the fastest, but usually you don't have to be so fast in Sea Hag games, which tend to be a bit slow. And since Wharf lets you start with large hands, you really don't need to trash that much to get a reasonably reliable engine going.

Oh wow, I spaced.  I didn't notice the apprentice when looking for trashing cards.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

ftl

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2013, 01:22:55 am »
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In general, if you don't think you can buy all the Provinces on your own, or you can't end the game before your opponent gets too many Duchies/Dukes, you're better off going for Duchies and Dukes. If you have more than half the Duchies, then Dukes are worth nearly as much as Provinces, for much cheaper.


Yeah. Big Money+Duchy+Duke will typically beat the equivalent Big Money+Province strategy. 7 Duchies and 4 dukes (11 buys of 5-cost cards!) gives more points than 8 provinces (8 buys of 8-cost cards). It's only three buys more, and they're cheaper.

 There's a Duke strategy article from WanderingWinder on the wiki at http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Duke#Strategy_Article .
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 01:25:35 am by ftl »
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2013, 11:55:13 pm »
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Darn.  I just played a game and copied the wrong web address.  Guess I'll have to wait for councilroom to put it up.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

qmech

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2013, 12:27:32 pm »
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If you at least looked at the log then you might be able to pull it from your history.
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2013, 12:49:39 pm »
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Ah, I didn't think about that.  Oh well.  Got it now.

http://www.councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20130119-205343-1ed1bd4f.html

I went for vineyards and it worked pretty well.  I could tell I was playing against an inexperienced opponent, so that may have done something.  I used the smugglers and the workshop to gain some of my actions, and I bought some too.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2013, 03:10:06 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/21/game-20130121-120636-71589bdf.html

I was going for BM but with a mix of several actions (the fishing village helped with that).  After my first three provinces I realized I could trash them with the salvager.  After getting 5 provinces with two left, he just said, "k, whatever, gg" and resigned.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2013, 03:24:58 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/21/game-20130121-122240-de535e6c.html

I set up a torturer engine and it worked quite nicely.  I never drew my whole deck, but I still played multiple a turn.  I didn't trash that much, but I usually wanted to play one last torturer instead of playing the steward.  Also, I was thinking about using the coppersmiths he was giving me as my main source of money, but later decided against it.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2013, 05:27:22 pm »
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Quote
Arleon's turn 2
Arleon plays 5 Coppers.
Arleon buys a Tribute.

I'm concerned that the quality of your competition is inhibiting your ability to improve your game.

EDIT: I don't mean that as a slight against you at all; I mean you might be benefited more by stronger opponents, is all. I didn't mean for it to sound demeaning.  :-[
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sudgy

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2013, 06:15:33 pm »
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Quote
Arleon's turn 2
Arleon plays 5 Coppers.
Arleon buys a Tribute.

I'm concerned that the quality of your competition is inhibiting your ability to improve your game.

EDIT: I don't mean that as a slight against you at all; I mean you might be benefited more by stronger opponents, is all. I didn't mean for it to sound demeaning.  :-[

I just wait at an empty spot and whoever comes first I play.  Sometimes it's good players, and other times it's bad players.  And, he actually proposed the game with me that time.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

sudgy

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2013, 06:52:55 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/21/game-20130121-154938-e387227f.html

I went for minions, he went for pirate ship.  His trashing my money helped me speed up faster, and I was trashing with my lookout as well.  I also got some native villages and some bridges to allow me to buy multiple things every turn.  After I got three provinces, he suddenly resigned.  He might have still had a chance, he had several coins on his pirate ship mat and lots of native villages...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2013, 07:06:04 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/21/game-20130121-160427-81f54908.html

I used the ironworks to get lots of actions for the vineyards.  Not much else, other than the first time I've bought a transmute (I haven't had alchemy for that long).
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

eHalcyon

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2013, 07:47:20 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/21/game-20130121-154938-e387227f.html

I went for minions, he went for pirate ship.  His trashing my money helped me speed up faster, and I was trashing with my lookout as well.  I also got some native villages and some bridges to allow me to buy multiple things every turn.  After I got three provinces, he suddenly resigned.  He might have still had a chance, he had several coins on his pirate ship mat and lots of native villages...

Read this:

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/01/02/combo-of-the-day-27-native-villagebridge/

Diverting for Minion probably loses to the NV/Bridge megaturn strategy.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/21/game-20130121-160427-81f54908.html

I used the ironworks to get lots of actions for the vineyards.  Not much else, other than the first time I've bought a transmute (I haven't had alchemy for that long).

You could have also Transmuted some Copper into more Transmutes to bump up Vineyards even more. :)
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2013, 08:31:47 pm »
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native village/bridge it just one of those combos that most experienced players will go for immediately.  And since your opponent is actually speeding you up by trashing copper, it's pretty much a guaranteed win.  Minion vs pirate ship is also an easy win.

Pirate ship is usually a pretty terrible card.

Your ironworks/vineyard game was vs another rather terrible opponent who was also cursed by some awful luck. After you got familiars or turns 3/5 before he even had a potion it was pretty much over for him.  At that point you should just pile drive curses/ironworks/island and put him out of his misery. The library/outpost/transmute/ vineyard stuff was totally unnecessary and simply gave him a chance to comeback with some insane tribute/island luck. I would have just spent all my buys on ironworks, and used all my ironworks on islands.

Part of being a good player is not getting a really high score, but getting up and putting your opponent in a position where there is nothing they can do.  Like in some of your torturer/fishing village games, you had room for 3-4 more torturers to game/over lights out them into taking all 10 curses or discarding their hand every turn.
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2013, 01:40:04 am »
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native village/bridge it just one of those combos that most experienced players will go for immediately.  And since your opponent is actually speeding you up by trashing copper, it's pretty much a guaranteed win.  Minion vs pirate ship is also an easy win.

Pirate ship is usually a pretty terrible card.

I didn't notice the native village and the bridge together...  Should've noticed that.

Quote
Your ironworks/vineyard game was vs another rather terrible opponent who was also cursed by some awful luck. After you got familiars or turns 3/5 before he even had a potion it was pretty much over for him.  At that point you should just pile drive curses/ironworks/island and put him out of his misery. The library/outpost/transmute/ vineyard stuff was totally unnecessary and simply gave him a chance to comeback with some insane tribute/island luck. I would have just spent all my buys on ironworks, and used all my ironworks on islands.

Part of being a good player is not getting a really high score, but getting up and putting your opponent in a position where there is nothing they can do.  Like in some of your torturer/fishing village games, you had room for 3-4 more torturers to game/over lights out them into taking all 10 curses or discarding their hand every turn.

I've noticed that I tend to not go for rushes unless I was planning that from the start.  I originally just thought I would get lots of actions, vineyards, etc.  The thought entered my mind at one point, but I just dismissed it quickly for who knows what reason.  I think it's just that I don't like changing in the middle of the game (unless I'm losing and can tell I need a change of strategy).  And I probably should change that.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2013, 01:58:32 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/21/game-20130121-225623-4ecb3386.html

I didn't think about setting up a native village/wharf engine at first.  My opponent buying the native villages woke me up and I started buying them.  That probably saved the game for me.  I managed to get 5 provinces by the end.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2013, 02:11:20 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/21/game-20130121-230811-2819ebe8.html

Me and my opponent went for vineyards.  Looking back I realized I barely got any actions...  And also, as my opponent pointed out to me, golems and tactitians don't mix well.  I'm not quite sure what made him do so good...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2013, 03:49:51 am »
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native village/bridge it just one of those combos that most experienced players will go for immediately.  And since your opponent is actually speeding you up by trashing copper, it's pretty much a guaranteed win.  Minion vs pirate ship is also an easy win.

Pirate ship is usually a pretty terrible card.

I didn't notice the native village and the bridge together...  Should've noticed that.

Quote
Your ironworks/vineyard game was vs another rather terrible opponent who was also cursed by some awful luck. After you got familiars or turns 3/5 before he even had a potion it was pretty much over for him.  At that point you should just pile drive curses/ironworks/island and put him out of his misery. The library/outpost/transmute/ vineyard stuff was totally unnecessary and simply gave him a chance to comeback with some insane tribute/island luck. I would have just spent all my buys on ironworks, and used all my ironworks on islands.

Part of being a good player is not getting a really high score, but getting up and putting your opponent in a position where there is nothing they can do.  Like in some of your torturer/fishing village games, you had room for 3-4 more torturers to game/over lights out them into taking all 10 curses or discarding their hand every turn.

I've noticed that I tend to not go for rushes unless I was planning that from the start.  I originally just thought I would get lots of actions, vineyards, etc.  The thought entered my mind at one point, but I just dismissed it quickly for who knows what reason.  I think it's just that I don't like changing in the middle of the game (unless I'm losing and can tell I need a change of strategy).  And I probably should change that.

Not probably should. Definitely need. Be constantly aware of piles running low or other ways a game could be ended quickly (ambassadoring a province without putting one back; salvaging a province, etc.). Pursue it if it guarantees you the win. Don't help your opponent to walk that way if you're down, e.g. by draining piles for him (unless you really have to).
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2013, 03:56:15 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/21/game-20130121-230811-2819ebe8.html

Me and my opponent went for vineyards.  Looking back I realized I barely got any actions...  And also, as my opponent pointed out to me, golems and tactitians don't mix well.  I'm not quite sure what made him do so good...

Getting 6 provinces but 3 vineyards is not really going for vineyards. And as you said, you didn't get lots of actions. If you really want to go for vineyards, open market/lighthouse, get a steward, spam lots of lighthouses and wishing wells, get markets for more $ and - more important - the + buy - but you don't really want gold or tacticians. And don't contest your opponent on provinces unless you're sure you win by that (c.f. post above).
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2013, 04:27:29 am »
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but you don't really want gold or tacticians.

A bit more on the Tacticians: Tactician is great with the Markets and Lighthouses, but you end up feeling a bit silly when you can't play your Potion.  It's not so obvious that you'd want to avoid them here though.
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2013, 09:23:45 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/23/game-20130123-182200-7c5de2eb.html

I went for mostly big money, but got an ambassador and a couple lighthouses on the way.  My opponent built a nobles engine.  I got five provinces, but his nobles won.

EDIT: Oops, I also got a salvager that I thought I would use more than I did.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm
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