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sudgy

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Feedback on games
« on: January 16, 2013, 01:11:54 am »
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(I don't know if this should be in this thread, I'll post it here and if it should be somewhere else it can go there.  I was thinking maybe just the general discussion)

I'm wanting to get better at the game, and despite countless hours spent reading things on this site and a lot of games, I'm still not getting much better...

I was thinking of posting all my isotropic games here (I only play a couple times a day online (well, usually)) and getting feedback on them (If you guys don't think it's a good idea for some reason, I can stop).

Also, I only have the base game and the first three expansions (I'm getting the next two soon) irl, so I only play with those cards online.

I'll wait for feedback on the idea before posting game logs.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2013, 01:23:27 am »
+2

Something like this has been done before with a pretty reasonable response:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5397.0

The important thing is to not just post all the logs with no analysis. If you want people to give feedback, give your own analysis of the games, and we can give more constructive advice. If you just post logs, it's hard for people to get motivated to look on their own.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2013, 01:31:16 am »
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You should play with all the cards anyway! :D



If you have an Android phone, a decent way to improve is to play Androminion against the Earl AI.  Earl usually just plays pure Big Money.  Sometimes he will go for a few other cards -- usually just Base set ones (Witch is one).  But pretty much Big Money.

For real newbies, even that will be a challenge.  I remember reading reviews of Androminion saying that their AI was too strong!  But after you get past that stage, playing against a Big Money bot can still be educational for learning the speed of different strategies.  Yeah, it might seem like a good idea at first to build that giant multi-province engine... but by the time it's running, maybe BM already has 6 Provinces.  Oops.

And yeah, there are plenty of people around here who are happy to critique and give advice. :)
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sudgy

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2013, 01:38:58 am »
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Something like this has been done before with a pretty reasonable response:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5397.0

The important thing is to not just post all the logs with no analysis. If you want people to give feedback, give your own analysis of the games, and we can give more constructive advice. If you just post logs, it's hard for people to get motivated to look on their own.

I was going to give analysis on each game anyway.

You should play with all the cards anyway! :D

I've made an agreement with the people I play with irl that I won't play with them.  They don't want me to get good at cards they don't know (they don't play online).

Quote
if you have an Android phone

I don't, so that's out.  I'm fine playing with people.

I guess I'll just get started, and ironically the first game I win.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-223225-3186ecf5.html

I decided to go for gardens.  I used the woodcutter and the wharf as the main cards to help with it, with a swindler added to it (and a caravan, I don't know what made me do that).  Nothing much eventful, I just played gardens, getting five of them, and emptying the estates and duchies (which is unusual for me when I'm going for the gardens, it just was the best card at the time).  I had 50 cards in my deck by the end, so I beat him pretty good.  I guess you don't learn as much when you win...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2013, 03:02:26 am »
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Also, I only have the base game and the first three expansions (I'm getting the next two soon) irl, so I only play with those cards online.
If you don't know the cards, use this plugin: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/dominion-full-card-displa/nloabfofohknompmpdnkibeilnnhailk - you will have card texts displayed all the time on Iso. I learned Alchemy, Hinterlands and Cornucopia cards by playing with them on Iso with this turned on.
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DStu

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2013, 04:19:31 am »
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I guess I'll just get started, and ironically the first game I win.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-223225-3186ecf5.html

I decided to go for gardens.  I used the woodcutter and the wharf as the main cards to help with it, with a swindler added to it (and a caravan, I don't know what made me do that).  Nothing much eventful, I just played gardens, getting five of them, and emptying the estates and duchies (which is unusual for me when I'm going for the gardens, it just was the best card at the time).  I had 50 cards in my deck by the end, so I beat him pretty good.  I guess you don't learn as much when you win...

Not much to say I guess, you are right in thinking the Caravan was wrong, should have been a Silver or another Swindler.  Your main focus is the Wharfs, Caravan does not help in getting that early.
40 points in 23 turns seems like this is reasonable play for quite a high skillrange.   Of course there is Wharf-BM on the board, which might get some early Provinces, contest Gardens and try to pile out, don't know if that's better.  Is a good question anyway. In a vacuum, does Wharf-Gardens beat Wharf-BM?
There also is a weak engine on the board, which can profit from Sabteurs/Swindlers to destroy points, but without trashing and with Nobles as Villages  I'd leave that to Stef or Marin...
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KingsSkort

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2013, 09:21:54 am »
0

I guess I'll just get started, and ironically the first game I win.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-223225-3186ecf5.html

I decided to go for gardens.  I used the woodcutter and the wharf as the main cards to help with it, with a swindler added to it (and a caravan, I don't know what made me do that).  Nothing much eventful, I just played gardens, getting five of them, and emptying the estates and duchies (which is unusual for me when I'm going for the gardens, it just was the best card at the time).  I had 50 cards in my deck by the end, so I beat him pretty good.  I guess you don't learn as much when you win...

Not much to say I guess, you are right in thinking the Caravan was wrong, should have been a Silver or another Swindler.  Your main focus is the Wharfs, Caravan does not help in getting that early.
40 points in 23 turns seems like this is reasonable play for quite a high skillrange.   Of course there is Wharf-BM on the board, which might get some early Provinces, contest Gardens and try to pile out, don't know if that's better.  Is a good question anyway. In a vacuum, does Wharf-Gardens beat Wharf-BM?
There also is a weak engine on the board, which can profit from Sabteurs/Swindlers to destroy points, but without trashing and with Nobles as Villages  I'd leave that to Stef or Marin...

Wharf-BM must crush the gardens strat. I just did a trial where I pulled 8 provinces in 24 turns. Swindler should slow that down a bit, but I also mistakenly bought a duchy:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/16/game-20130116-061849-b0e0c411.html

EDIT: Plus, the gardens player really has to worry about piles. Assuming Wharves and Gardens go early, there's a danger of the non-gardens player picking up a few provinces and then piling out duchies or estates.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 09:23:42 am by KingsSkort »
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DStu

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2013, 09:30:45 am »
0

I guess I'll just get started, and ironically the first game I win.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-223225-3186ecf5.html

I decided to go for gardens.  I used the woodcutter and the wharf as the main cards to help with it, with a swindler added to it (and a caravan, I don't know what made me do that).  Nothing much eventful, I just played gardens, getting five of them, and emptying the estates and duchies (which is unusual for me when I'm going for the gardens, it just was the best card at the time).  I had 50 cards in my deck by the end, so I beat him pretty good.  I guess you don't learn as much when you win...

Not much to say I guess, you are right in thinking the Caravan was wrong, should have been a Silver or another Swindler.  Your main focus is the Wharfs, Caravan does not help in getting that early.
40 points in 23 turns seems like this is reasonable play for quite a high skillrange.   Of course there is Wharf-BM on the board, which might get some early Provinces, contest Gardens and try to pile out, don't know if that's better.  Is a good question anyway. In a vacuum, does Wharf-Gardens beat Wharf-BM?
There also is a weak engine on the board, which can profit from Sabteurs/Swindlers to destroy points, but without trashing and with Nobles as Villages  I'd leave that to Stef or Marin...

Wharf-BM must crush the gardens strat. I just did a trial where I pulled 8 provinces in 24 turns. Swindler should slow that down a bit, but I also mistakenly bought a duchy:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/16/game-20130116-061849-b0e0c411.html

EDIT: Plus, the gardens player really has to worry about piles. Assuming Wharves and Gardens go early, there's a danger of the non-gardens player picking up a few provinces and then piling out duchies or estates.

You don't seem to have 24 turns, and 8 Provinces + Duchy is not enough against 8 5pGardens+3Duchies+8Estates.  But I agree on the piles thing.  I think best way is to build up BM-Wharf, get some Provinces, contest Gardens, help piling out.
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DG

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2013, 09:37:40 am »
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It isn't certain which 3rd pile will empty in this game so there needs to be tactics beyond the gardens. If the gardens are split 4-4 then the player with the stronger deck will then win on province/duchy points against a player who buys coppers etc from the start. Since a strong deck here will be using wharves there will be plenty of capability to defend against gardens.
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sudgy

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 12:58:44 pm »
0

Also, I only have the base game and the first three expansions (I'm getting the next two soon) irl, so I only play with those cards online.
If you don't know the cards, use this plugin: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/dominion-full-card-displa/nloabfofohknompmpdnkibeilnnhailk - you will have card texts displayed all the time on Iso. I learned Alchemy, Hinterlands and Cornucopia cards by playing with them on Iso with this turned on.

It's not that I don't want to learn them, it's that by an agreement made, I can't learn them.


On topic, I didn't even think about Wharf BM...  When looking at everything, I saw the gardens, the wharves, the woodcutter, so I just went for it.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

sudgy

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2013, 03:04:05 pm »
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So, after talking about Wharf BM, that's kind of what I went for here:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/16/game-20130116-115926-6a318a00.html

I also got some familiars and lighthouses to block the familiars (I might have gotten too many lighthouses, I'm not sure).  I made a mistake on turn 5 and forgot about my +$1 from the lighthouse and bought a silver instead of a wharf.  He still managed to beat me pretty good.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

sudgy

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2013, 03:18:41 pm »
0

And another one:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/16/game-20130116-121618-caa67b1f.html

I was going for a laboratory engine (with a torturer or two thrown in, with a fishing village or two to play them), but it kind of failed.  I still managed to get a fair amount of cards each turn though, and that was enough to win.  I'm pretty sure I could have done something better, but I'm not quite sure what that is...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2013, 03:21:54 pm »
0

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/03/26/intrigue-torturer/

Objective is to play lots of torturers in the same turn.
So you want lots of FV, torturers, some TR, possibly a lookout, might want a pawn at some point for the +buy.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 03:27:02 pm by Rabid »
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2013, 03:29:16 pm »
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So, after talking about Wharf BM, that's kind of what I went for here:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/16/game-20130116-115926-6a318a00.html

I also got some familiars and lighthouses to block the familiars (I might have gotten too many lighthouses, I'm not sure).  I made a mistake on turn 5 and forgot about my +$1 from the lighthouse and bought a silver instead of a wharf.  He still managed to beat me pretty good.

I took a quick look at the early play and nothing stood out as a major mistake.  I actually find more fault with your opponent's play.  Smugglers open doesn't seem great to me, and smuggling a second potion seems like a bad idea.  That the game took 28 turns on a Wharf board is surprising.  Wharf BM should be much faster.  It might have just been a result of luck, where your Familiars kept getting blocked and his did not.

One thing to note is that Wharf is terminal draw when you play it.  Any actions it draws will be dead.  That makes other actions -- even non-terminal like Lighthouse and Familiar -- less desirable.

Maybe a better player will see something more to that game.

And another one:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/16/game-20130116-121618-caa67b1f.html

I was going for a laboratory engine (with a torturer or two thrown in, with a fishing village or two to play them), but it kind of failed.  I still managed to get a fair amount of cards each turn though, and that was enough to win.  I'm pretty sure I could have done something better, but I'm not quite sure what that is...

Skip the labs.  Fishing Village + Torturer is the clear power combo here.  Lab is nice non-terminal draw, but FV means you shouldn't be lacking for actions.  FV+Torturer will be a nice little draw engine for you, but that isn't the best thing.  Torturer is brutal when played in multiples.  This board does have some ways to clear out curses, but Apprentice is a poor Curse trasher and Lookout doesn't trash from hand so it won't clear be able to clear them immediately.
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sudgy

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2013, 06:33:14 pm »
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I know Torturer is a powerful card when played multiple times, but I don't usually try it when the village doesn't give you an extra card and there's not that great of trashing.  I didn't think about how the fishing village would give me more actions though so that it still would have worked pretty great.  And I don't know why I didn't think of  how the throne room made it a lot better...  :P
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

hsiale

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2013, 06:42:53 pm »
+1

Fishing Village gives more actions than other villages. It's extra action both turn you play it and the one after. This compensates for +1 card (because turn after you play it you get extra action not using any space in your hand).
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2013, 07:11:30 pm »
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Even if a crappy village like Shanty Town is in the kingdom, if ST-Torturer is the best chain that you can muster, then by all means, play ST-Torturer. Once you get the chain going, all but the most resilient BM strats will get stalled with Curses.
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2013, 08:04:51 pm »
+1

I know Torturer is a powerful card when played multiple times, but I don't usually try it when the village doesn't give you an extra card and there's not that great of trashing.  I didn't think about how the fishing village would give me more actions though so that it still would have worked pretty great.  And I don't know why I didn't think of  how the throne room made it a lot better...  :P

Fishing village is awesome.
1) It gives money. So it's okay to just get lots of them, you won't be low on cash.
2) THIS turn it gives no cards. But next turn, it's equivalent to a bazaar!
3) It just gives SO MANY actions. This turn AND next turn. If you draw three torturers in hand with no villages, usually you're screwed. But if you had a fishing vilage or two on the LAST turn, you're pretty happy!
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2013, 01:24:27 pm »
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Alright, here I went for a scrying pool engine:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/17/game-20130117-102026-05a4628a.html

It worked pretty well, despite the familiars.  I used minions as a source of income.  I think my opponent was playing suboptimally (he didn't get a chapel till about halfway through the game).  I beat him with 7 provinces.  (Note: I didn't trash my coppers on turn 5 because I knew I would only have 2 coppers left.  I still needed to get some money.)
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2013, 01:35:38 pm »
+1

Alright, here I went for a scrying pool engine:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/17/game-20130117-102026-05a4628a.html

It worked pretty well, despite the familiars.  I used minions as a source of income.  I think my opponent was playing suboptimally (he didn't get a chapel till about halfway through the game).  I beat him with 7 provinces.  (Note: I didn't trash my coppers on turn 5 because I knew I would only have 2 coppers left.  I still needed to get some money.)

Well played, but you probably want a Herbalist for the buy, this way you can get beyond 1Province/turn.
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2013, 01:47:31 pm »
0

Alright, here I went for a scrying pool engine:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/17/game-20130117-102026-05a4628a.html

It worked pretty well, despite the familiars.  I used minions as a source of income.  I think my opponent was playing suboptimally (he didn't get a chapel till about halfway through the game).  I beat him with 7 provinces.  (Note: I didn't trash my coppers on turn 5 because I knew I would only have 2 coppers left.  I still needed to get some money.)

Well played, but you probably want a Herbalist for the buy, this way you can get beyond 1Province/turn.

I thought about that, but never acted on it.  I'm not quite sure why...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

ftl

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2013, 02:24:02 pm »
+2

If you're not sure why, here's a guess why!

If you just evaluate buys turn-by-turn, you'll never get that Herbalist. At the time in the game where you might have only $2-$3 to spend, you don't need the +Buy, so it feels like you should buy something that'll help you get your deck going and not that Herbalist which only gives you a measly +$1 and a buy you can't use yet. By the time you have lots to spend, it always feels so wasteful to spend, say, $6 on an herbalist when you can get a minion, or $8 on an herbalist when you could get a province.

Both of those feelings are traps, and will lead you to never get that herbalist. You should be wary of them. You have to plan ahead - either get the Herbalist before you need it, in anticipation that you will later, or overspend to get it.

There's a thread somewhere on this board titled "-Stef- buys Herbalist with $13" or something like that.

It's obviously a tough judgement call sometimes - if you get it too early you'll spend time just using it as a terminal copper, which could hold you back, or if you get it too late you'll only get to use it's buy once or something. Ideally you want to get it just in time - the shuffle before your deck takes off and starts consistently generating $7p, or on the very first turn you're starting to consistently get big spending.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 02:42:58 pm by ftl »
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2013, 02:38:43 pm »
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Here's the thread:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4606

The discussion is very interesting.  And for context, -Stef- is one of the top players on isotropic.  In fact, as of right now, he is #1.
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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2013, 05:42:53 pm »
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Although, thinking back on it, I barely got more than $8 anyway.  I could have gotten some native villages and some cutpurses, but that might have slowed me down too much.  I'm not sure.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Feedback on games
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2013, 05:56:17 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/17/game-20130117-145242-4a0ee379.html

I decided to go for a lab engine, but that failed.  Horribly.  Probably due to his familiars.  He seemed to go for mostly BM, and he won.  My buying the last province was basically me saying, "I concede."  I was a little closer than I thought I was, but oh well.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm
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