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[Beyond Awesome]

I just had a thought for what one of the boss battles might be. I am thinking a kingdom of almost all attacks! I know it isn't a puzzle, but it is something that might make a newer player crap their pants. And, I know we want fun kingdoms, but I figure for the boss battles we should make it challenging, or at least appear like a challenge.

I am thinking something like this: Ambassador, Village, Thief, Sea Hag, Witch, Mountebank, Torturer, Minion, Ghost Ship, Goons

[ftl]

In current campaigns, boss battles typically involve 4p. This makes them friggin impossible too.

I like how the all-attack kingdom manages to still include trashing, card draw, +buy. And a village.

[Beyond Awesome]

In current campaigns, boss battles typically involve 4p. This makes them friggin impossible too.

I like how the all-attack kingdom manages to still include trashing, card draw, +buy. And a village.

I think only the last two battles are 4P. Boss Battle 1 is 2P and Boss Battle 2 is 3P, I think. And, yah, I do find the boss battles kind of impossible as is. I think the big problem is the AI. You have one AI draining one pile, another AI going for Militias and pretty much the AI's end up helping each other out, playing kingmaker and hurting you in the process. But, maybe that can be fixed by choosing what bots are the AI for the boss battles.

[Donald X.]

You can decide just how many opponents you want on every level (and what their names are).

[ftl]

Boss battles being hard is sort of okay, and honestly it takes 4p to make games against bots hard and still interesting for advanced players. I think that's a feature not a bug

[ftl]

OK, I made another set. Promise next thing I'll go back and look at Ozle's in detail!

I think since we have Prosperity AND seaside there should be a few kingdoms which are, like, super-overpowered, because damn those sets have some power between them. Preferably overpowered in a way that can't be done prosperity-only, so no huge city-goons stack. I'm not even including bridge... I bet someone else will want to do a kc-bridge set.

Kingdom: Village, Warehouse, Salvager, Coppersmith, Quarry, Wharf, Outpost, King's Court, Forge, Peddler
Use Plat/Col

What players can do:
With Prosperity and Seaside, there is the potential for truly overpowered play. Like this.
Beginners: I made sure that there was stuff to buy at $3-$5, so even if people don't get to $7 there's play to be had, you don't have to just buy silvers. Quarry makes it easy to get to high-powered stuff even if you don't have a good plan.
Intermediate: Go insane with KC-Wharf-Outpost! Salvage Peddlers! Do you Forge trash away? Or coppersmith for superpower?
Advanced: ...not so sure. Know what to ignore, really; maybe I should put in a trap card?

Intrigue: 1
Seaside: 4
Prosperity:  4
Base: 1

2-cost:
3-cost: 2
4-cost: 3
5-cost: 2
6-cost:
7-cost: 2
8*-cost: 1


...I think this one could still use some work. King's Court, Wharf, Outpost, Coppersmith, Quarry probably are the core, everything else is sort of... meh. Maybe stuff everything huge into it and put in Bridge too?

OK, Ozle's sets in detail.

I like how completely different the design principles are. These sets are very thematic, whereas I always started with trying to get cards from different expansions  to work together and didn't have theme in mind. I think these are nice too.

Thieves!:
Thief, Money Lender, Cutpurse, Festival, Lighthouse, Loan, Village, Market, Masquerade, Expand

Make this a >2 player game for maximum effect, I think. Even 4p. That'll make thief worthwhile, and won't make more more advanced players go "well, BM+Masq it is" and skip everything else.

Maybe add stuff to make BM+Masq more interesting? Royal Seal, that doesn't get used much. Maybe venture would be more thematic. And maybe something to make an engine viable? Watchtower switched in for something? That would make there be a reasonable choice between BM+Masq and an engine which could actually make use of all the cool cards around here. Yeah, Watchtower and Venture both seem plausibly thematic here, and they would make the rest of the cards in the set fit together better? Maybe in exchange for Village and Market?

Gardens:
Garden, Bureaucrat, Talisman, Workers village, Warehouse, Adventurer, Cellar, Woodcutter, Hoard, City

Oh man, super-gardens enablers. Woodcutter, Bureaucrat, Worker's Village, Warehouse,  Talisman, Hoard... lack of IW or Workshop to make it less straightforward.

Perhaps take out some of the base set gardens enablers? The three acts of base set already have woodcutter-gardens and bureaucrat-gardens games, I think, and somebody who sees them, remembers "hey, that worked before", does that again and beats the AI will come out thinking this set had nothing new and was the same as sets from the base game campaign. But I'm pretty sure I don't remember playing a Talisman-Hoard-Worker's Village-Gardens game.

Are there any other non-obvious Gardens enablers from Intrigue/Seaside/Prosperity that fit here? Contraband? Smugglers? Baron? Yes, I think I would suggest switching some of those in for Woodcutter and Bureaucrat.

Pirates: Pearl Diver, Merchant Ship, Pirate Ship, Lookout, Bazaar, Rabble, Treasure Map, Workshop, Remodel, Chancellor

So many ships! Hmm. Is there any +Buy which would be thematic? Maybe Salvager instead of Remodel?

Wharf: Wharf, Fishing Village, Cellar, Council Room, Bank, Market, Chapel, Ironworks, Monument, Thief

Looks good to me.  Lots of stuff to do. My main worry about this one is that Wharf/FV work so well together and are both Seaside, so it may end up playing similar to a seaside-only game, especially to someone who isn't patient enough to get a bank for double or triple-province turns.  Bank and Monument are definitely new though. Maybe give it plat/col to accentuate the differences?

Trade Route: Islands, Gardens, Trade Route, Hoard, Village, Lookout, Sea Hag, Ambassador, Throne Room, Bureaucrat, Colony & Platinum

Ooh, this one's nice. I keep thinking it wants Nobles in there too. Maybe instead of... something... Throne Room? Village?  For even more hoardage and traderouteage. Dunno.

BTW, Ozle, you already have some Intrigue sprinkled in there - Masquerade, Ironworks are intrigue.

I do not think we need to worry about using all the cards. Leaving lots out is okay.

[Ozle]

"Masquerade, Ironworks "

Doh left overs from original drafts. Will update.

[ftl]

They're ok! No need to take them out!

[Tables]

Just emailed Trisha, and got a reply about the bots (from one of the programmers working on AI apparently):

Serf Bot is mainly dumbed down in terms of what he buys.  He also has some randomness in them.

Other bots value different things more than others.  Warlord Bot likes attacking, Conqueror Bot likes victory cards, Defender Bot likes reaction cards.  Lord Bottington probably has the best all-around valuation.

I emailed to check about VI bot:

Pretty much, it wants to play large hands, anything that has +actions.

Edit:

Banker bot prefers Treasure cards. He's usually going to go for the big money strategy.

So now we have an idea of what to suggest. VI bot for (deck draw) engines, Banker Bot for BM. Conqueror Bot for alt VP heavy, Warlord/Defender for attack/defence type games (?), Serf Bot early, Bottington late.

[Beyond Awesome]

Just emailed Trisha, and got a reply about the bots (from one of the programmers working on AI apparently):

Serf Bot is mainly dumbed down in terms of what he buys.  He also has some randomness in them.

Other bots value different things more than others.  Warlord Bot likes attacking, Conqueror Bot likes victory cards, Defender Bot likes reaction cards.  Lord Bottington probably has the best all-around valuation.

I emailed to check about VI bot:

Pretty much, it wants to play large hands, anything that has +actions.

So now we have an idea of what to suggest. VI bot for (deck draw) engines, Conqueror Bot for alt VP heavy, Warlord/Defender for attack/defence type games (?), Serf Bot early, Bottington late.

Thanks Tables! This is valuable information to have. I never would have guessed Defender bot went for Reaction cards. I mean it makes sense based on what it is called, but that is an odd strategy for anyone to have.

[Tables]

Added in Banker Bot as well. I could ask for more details if we want, but I guess the idea is that firstly, it tries to stop itself being hurt by attacks, and secondly, tries to take advantage of reaction effects. Not sure.

[ftl]

I playtested the first set I put up ("Native Village, Masquerade, Wishing Well, Worker's Village, Cutpurse, Baron, Council Room, Rabble, Treasury, Venture") and straight up masq-BM beat up on anything the bots did by a lot. Like, a lot. Maybe they're not very good, but Masq really does take the edge off Rabble. VI bot did get some nice rabble chains going but only sometimes, and even then a little too late (after doing stuff like getting two worker's villages before its first silver).

I guess that's ok. There's definitely cool rabble tricks to be done if the player wants to do them.

[hsiale]

Current bot rankings (due to way Goko calculates rankings I guess we should note those a few times and an average will tell us something meaningful).

Defender Bot 4078
Conqueror Bot 4067
Banker Bot 4050
Lord Bottington 3952
Village Idiot Bot 3619
Warlord Bot 3491
Serf Bot 0

[Tables]

So, uh, is this dead?

[ftl]

Nah. I've been a bit busy, I'm away from home right now, but it'll happen for sure, even if I have to just finish it myself. I'll work on it more after I get back this weekend.

I think I was waiting for Ozle to post his story so that I could make sets that fit into that? Wait, looking back he said that he'd post that tomorrow but that was a bunch of days ago, maybe I shouldn't count on that. Are you here ozle?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, uh, is this dead?

No. I just had a busy week. I think this weekend. I will try working on a story if no one comes up with something. I will also try to design some kingdoms for feedback.

[hsiale]

I think a basic story for a Intrigue/Seaside/Prosperity campaign could be:
- you are thrown from the throne of Vaccara due to intrigues of your evil Chancellor,
- you have to escape to stay alive, only way to do this is sailing away on some random ship,
- after some adventures at the sea finally you come to the other continent and become a sellsword,
- time goes, you do well and finally become a leader of a well-known sellswords company,
- finally, having accumulated enough wealth, armed people and ships, you sail back to take back your kingdom.

Details will depend on kingdoms used for campaign games.

[ftl]

Tried out "Islands, Gardens, Trade Route, Hoard, Village, Lookout, Sea Hag, Ambassador, Throne Room, Bureaucrat, Colony & Platinum"

It works really well. Doesn't really need changing. All the goko bots go for sea hag.

[ftl]

Set idea: I rememeber feeling super-awesome the first time I made a colony-buying engine out of only super-cheap components. So something like.

Loan, Watchtower, Hoard, Expand, Fishing Village, Island, Ghost Ship, Ironworks, Pawn, Bridge, Colony/Platinum

Has reasonable non-cheap-stuff too so you don't have to get stuck with that.

[Ozle]

Nah. I've been a bit busy, I'm away from home right now, but it'll happen for sure, even if I have to just finish it myself. I'll work on it more after I get back this weekend.

I think I was waiting for Ozle to post his story so that I could make sets that fit into that? Wait, looking back he said that he'd post that tomorrow but that was a bunch of days ago, maybe I shouldn't count on that. Are you here ozle?

Hey, yeah im here. Was waiting to see how much the sets changed bewfore I started finishing off the story

Its your standard tale about a peasent whose beloved gets stolen by pirates out by the seaside one day and he has to raise a lot of money to ransom her back eventually (which he does)

Also, I notice only the first few sets were posted here. There are 13 in total.

[ftl]

Oh, there's more sets!

Outpost
Witch
Lookout
Laboratory
Treasury
Island
Cellar
Trade Route
Counting House
Remodel

Hm. Sure. I don't get this one. I think it degenerates to, like, witch-BM? But with treasuries and labs, and the option of trashing some stuff. I'd suggest switching in an explorer for the counting house; I just can't see the Counting House doing anything here, unlike the other cards. Or switch out the traderoute or lookout for like steward or chapel, so there's something else to do here besides "buy random stufF" or "witch-bm"? Treasury-Outpost combo nicely but with witching it seems like you just won't get anything out of it.

Maybe I just don't get it.

Tactician
Bank
Warehouse
Treasure Map
Adventurer
Moneylender
Venture
Explorer
Feast
Haven

Colony

Ooh, I like this one. Tactician/Treasure map/Adventurer/Venture/Bank fun. (Converesely to the previous set, explorer seems out of place here? Maybe sub in Baron? Or coppersmith, for an alternate way of using coppers instead of trashing them. Not that it would be very good.)

Peddler
Workers Village
Salvager
Smugglers
Navigator
Feast
City
Mint
Workshop
Bishop

Peddler thing. Sort of leads you into workshopping feasts for cities, lol. I like this, needs no changes IMO. Or... even better... throw in Swindler for massive lulz to be had all around. There haven't been prosperity-intrigue sets so no swindler-peddler interaction yet. Or add in saboteur!

Library
Native Village
Festival
Haven
Cellar
Village
Forge
Rabble
Watchtower
Monument

I'd perhaps suggest switching out the Library and Festival for something else. Prosperity campaigns already have a few sets that feel like festival-watchtower, and base has plenty of festival-library. So maybe take that out to emphasize the cross-set interactions, leave in native village-watchtower, maybe put in fishing village instead of festival. Might also be a time for secret chamber, put that in the library slot. (Shanty town over village too?) Dunno.

Bridge
Native Village
Highway
Ironworks
Navigator
Ghost Ship
Scout
Vault
Contraband
Royal Seal

Sorry, Highway's from Hinterlands, has to go. With NV/Bridge/Ironworks there's already enough here, I'm pretty sure bots won't mirror you in NV/bridge so if you go NV/bridge there won't be any intricacy to the game. Reasonable otherwise. Perhaps Mining Village in the remaining slot? Also works for megaturn stuff and for bm and for +cards engine.

Quarry
Grand Market
Talisman
Moat
Militia
Mine
Pearl Diver
Witch
Caravan
Sea Hag

Colony

Ouch, super-painful!

This has the makings of a boss level which is going to pile out on curses, caravans, [duchies or estates]. Or a non-boss level where you can actually get to colonies. Could work either way.

There are still two more which I haven't gotten a chance to look at

[ftl]

OK, looking at the last two.

Kings Court
Chapel
Mountebank
Village
Haven
Caravan
Mint
Lighthouse
Smithy
City

Colony
Platinum

Seems reasonable. Might as well spice up village/smithy and put in, like, Shanty Town instead of regular village or w/e.

I'm not sure this set wants plat/col? With the lack of +Buy and the KC/mountebank, I think things will end up being pretty similar with/without colonies, but the game will just drag on more.

Goons
Monument
Fishing Village
Vault
Bazaar
Embargo
Chapel
Remodel
Bazaar
Contraband

you have bazaar on there twice

curious set. I'd suggest switching in a steward for the trashing instead of chapel, there' been a few chapel sets around already, right?

OK I should make a set now. 

Secret Chamber, Swindler, Lookout, Worker's Village, Baron, Tactician, Bazaar, Harem, Hoard, Peddler.

No plat/col. More than 2-p, make it a 3p or 4p game, possibly a bossfight. Has a few things I like going for it - the tactician-secret chamber, also enabled by opponents' swindlers, and of course stuff at all costs being vulnerable. But baron to use estates if your secret chambers get swindled ot them, and a little light trashing, and even your provinces aren't safe from swindling.


Oh, and here's another.

Shanty Town, Bridge, Conspirator, Scout, Minion, Fishing Village, Cutpurse, Outpost, Royal Seal, Expand. Use plat/col.

Minion as a draw-to-x enabler for other things and not a a single-card engine. at least not if it's contested.

[ftl]

Set:

Sea Hag, Duke, Talisman, Wishing Well, Courtyard, Cutpurse, Embargo, City, Grand Market, Tribute

No-trashing slog. Embargo which will run out of curses to give b/c of sea hag.

[Agile]

Hey, I know the discussion has moved past this, but as a relatively new player to Dominion I think that some sort of teaching campaigns would be really interesting and helpful to new players.

I got introduced to Dominion maybe 4-5 months ago and have mainly played with the Base-set in real life, though I have since bought Intrigue. I am starting to get familiar with Intrigue and Seaside playing on isotropic and have been trying to get a feel of all the cards, but particularly the ones from those sets. Still it is really overwhelming. Often I am in games with cards I haven't played with much, if at all and I am unsure of really the best usages of these cards. I have spent a good amount of time looking through strategy articles on the site and f.ds, but really playing with the cards is the best way to really learn how to use them. I feel like I am not alone as a new player in maybe feeling overwhelmed at points in games with a lot of novel cards and I think campaigns that don't just use the cards but help build solid strategy would be really helpful to newer players. I don't know to what extent this is done already in the campaigns as I haven't bought any of the additional sets yet and have only played some of a base-set campaign, but I do think it would be helpful and is something I know that I would be interested in.

I know that for now you all are working on regular "fun" campaigns, but if it works I would really suggest some teaching campaigns as I think they would be really helpful for newer players and in increasing some of the overall skill pool on Goko and otherwise.

[ftl]

I got distracted because my brother gave me 13 wheel of time e-books. I'll get back to this soon, I'm on the second-to-last one...