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Author Topic: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket  (Read 17955 times)

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Ozle

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2013, 08:16:49 pm »
+5

So let me get this right, you have gone through posts and posts of statistical analysis and come out with the likliest winner is the highest ranked one?

Genius
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dudeabides

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2013, 09:45:49 pm »
0

So let me get this right, you have gone through posts and posts of statistical analysis and come out with the likliest winner is the highest ranked one?

Genius

Hahaha!  Genius, indeed.  I'm a wannabe statistician who was looking for something to do other than actual work.  I thought it was interesting that Obi Wan gives WW a hard time, while WW gives ednever a really hard time, but ednever and Obi Wan are almost 50/50.  I wanted to dig deeper.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2013, 09:56:13 pm »
+7

Well, Beyond Awesome, you're going to be disappointed.

Mic Qsenoch defeats WW 4-3

Game 1: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-170907-448df6ff.html
WW 24 - 44 Mic Q
He goes for horse traders into fool's gold with wharves later. I go double fool's gold, counting on wharves for +buy. I maybe get too many wharves rather than focusing on FG and lose the split 6-4, even with him getting a province in there. I go for a n engine and I go for possession with it. I think the possession play was the real mistake - I get a nice horn of plenty thing going, but I don't pull the trigger, as it will only make it a tight game, and I am counting on him slowing down a lot, especially as he's greening early (probably because of my potion). He doesn't slow down, and he seals it before I can get the big turn I'm looking for.

Game 2: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-171612-ae1b6036.html
WW 31 - 27 Mic Q
Duke, with Horse traders, Feast, Duchess, IGG, and Swindler. Oh and Hunting party, Festival, and tactician in some of their least important appearances ever. I get a little swindler luck early, make a questionable call on getting a province over duchies, and basically just cruise. It wasn't as close as the score indicates, though there wasn't a lot he could have done.

Game 3: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-172519-edb6f747.html
Mic Q 64 - 25 WW
Basically, a Hunting Party + baron game with tournaments. He gets a better first couple shuffles, and together with first turn, this snowballs badly. I actually question a lot of his decisions on prizes, but it totally, totally doesn't matter, as he played well early, and his lead was entirely insurmountable. I end up grabbing a bunch of masquerades in a situation I'd resign in in a normal game, because my only chance is him somehow being forced to like, pass me provinces. Well, it looks like I lost badly, but it was worse.

^^These were two of the boringest games of dominion I've ever played.

Game 4: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-174141-c89c31c0.html
WW 38 - Mic Q 3
This one, on the other hand, was a lot closer than it looked. There was Embassy/Money possible, but we both went for engines. Conspirator was a key card, and scheme, hamlet, and black market. I pulled witch turn 3, but was unable to buy it. I did get an early fishing village, which was okay, and watchtower, which was great. He got a menagerie and outpost and jester and eventually the witch, after it probably didn't matter. But the big thing was that I got my apprentice earlier, which let me start rolling earlier, and I went ahead and greened pretty early. He did the build up a huge engine thing and was about ready to roar back. But I apprenticed provinces for massive hands a couple times, and this cut the game too short for him to have the chance.

Game 5: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-175741-b79a44d4.html
Mic Q 30 - 26 WW
I go for courtyard/money. He goes university into a scrying pool engine, with salvager and spice merchant. I eventually pick up a jester, which was probably a mistake. But I think mostly this comes down to me getting 7s at very inopportune times and 1st turn advantage. But he only has 2 universities (for a good while it was only one), and so can only play 3 terminals. He also is able to nail down green cards LOTS on the last couple shuffles (after forgetting to earlier) to hit me with curses off jesters, though clog-wise this isn't a problem for me. It's the -7 points that really kill me in the end. And my inability to get another 8...
I still like the money strategy here, but sometimes them's the shakes.

Game 6: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-180858-9a04d2ec.html
WW 36 - 8 Mic Q
He gets a GM early, but this doesn't really matter. I get my engine built faster, a second cutpurse (I eventually want to king a bunch of stuff) and build, build build. Well, he says he got hosed by cutpurse here - I believe him, because he never really gets off the ground. I actually win the KC split 9-1, which is way more than I need, but hey, denial. Yeah, then it's just a mop-up, which I don't do very stylishly but oh well.

Game 7: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-181614-01acd21e.html
Mic Q 29 - 27 WW
I am kicking myself for this one. I am kicking myself bad. Governor, salvager, caravan, (festival, lab, grand market, treasury, develop). I do not like this board - I figure his first turn is really big, with salvager and Governor. But I green what seems like ridiculously early, which I know is the right call. It comes down to my turn 12 decision - I am holding Governor/Gold/Copperx3/Salvager/Duchy/Province. And I'm down 20-18 with 3 provinces left. I think about it and... remodel the gold, salvage the duchy, get another province. Of course, he defensively trashes caravan->duchy and buys the last province. Now, I knew he didn't have any governors in his hand, but I should have realized that he had enough for a province, as well as the upgrade-able card. More important, I should have realized he was unlikely to be able to DOUBLE province, with only one card to draw and needing it to be governor - he had four, but out of a whole deck... Anyway, I also should have known that I had good things coming up and ultimately contented myself with one province, ESPECIALLY after he was able to upgrade the caravan - I did not stop to think that one over almost at all, but I could easily have punted to the next hand, and had a fairly good chance.....

Videos loading now...

Overall, disappointing match - I know both of us are capable of playing a lot better, and these kingdoms were actually... kind of boring. I feel like most of the games came down basically to luck, and a lot of first turn advantage; anyway, we both played well below our standards (I know both of us are better, from playing enough both ways.) Well anyway, good luck to him in the final four.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 10:04:49 pm by WanderingWinder »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2013, 10:16:35 pm »
+7

Here are my thoughts, which I had also posted in the Witch Division Thread:

Game 1 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-170907-448df6ff.html

Fool's Gold, Hunting Party, Wharf, Horse Traders, Walled Village, Possession, Horn of Plenty
Fool's Gold game, with a fair amount of engine potential as well. He opens double FG and I go for Horse Traders/FG. I pass on early Wharves to get double FG turns and win the split 6-4. I basically green as soon as I can afford Provinces, but I'm pretty sure this wasn't a good play. I get some pretty lucky draws to keep hitting $8. He tries to build a bit of an engine with HoP, and also looks to Possession. I don't really like the Possession here, but other than that I think probably a more engine like strategy can win here (but it should be close). I eventually secure the win.

Game 2 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-171612-ae1b6036.html

Swindler, Horse Traders, IGG, Duke
Looks like a IGG into Duke board, and that's what we both do. Same openings, but he has better luck with Swindler and HT reactions. I think he probably went for IGG a little too long, but I don't know. Game swings back my way a bit, and it ends closer, but it would have taken a lucky Swindler hit for me to win. I felt like this one was over pretty early.

Game 3 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-172519-edb6f747.html
Baron, Hunting Party, Tournament
In this game I have overwhelming early luck. That's pretty much all there is to it. I think I was wise to build a little before I got my first Province. After I start greening though, my play is a little sloppy (Island), but it doesn't matter too much because I'm so far ahead. I should have gone for Prize Fighter, but I passed on it for a Duchy.

Game 4 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-174141-c89c31c0.html
This is a game where I build a decently strong engine ... about 3-4 turns late. Lots of stuff here. He had a couple really nice hands with FV, Hamlet, Watchtower, Black Market early on that let him build momentum. He uses Apprentice to power through once he gets the lead and make sure I don't have a chance of catching him. I had some bad starting hands with Conspirators at the end, but it wouldn't have affected the outcome, and its mostly my fault for building the deck that way.

Game 5 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-175741-b79a44d4.html
A bunch of stuff for a Scrying Pool engine, which I try, while he goes with Courtyard BM. I feel like the engine is certainly the way to go here, but it is a very close game. I also play the engine pretty poorly. I don't take advantage of University + Salvager nearly enough, and generally overbuild some aspects of the engine (draw) while underbuilding others (spending). My last couple turns are almost completely dead, mainly because of some bad Haven play. It looks like I'm trying my best to throw this one away.

Game 6 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-180858-9a04d2ec.html
Cutpurse, Cutpurse, Cutpurse
I get shellacked by Cutpurse. It is hilarious actually.

Game 7 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/15/game-20130115-181614-01acd21e.html
Salvager, Caravan, Governor, many other things available.
Lots of stuff on the board, but Governor looms large. Hardest card to play ever. I don't know how people use this thing to build engines. I just do the "get lots of Gold and hope first turn carries the day" strategy. Caravan is nice for remodel into Duchy. On his last turn I do that, and have exactly $8 to get the last Province. Probably not the right play from him. But I sure as heck didn't play this one particularly well either.

Fun match, with one of the great Dominion players. Thanks for the games WW!

edit: I say it was a "fun" match, but I definitely agree with WW's assessment of our play quality and luck playing a big role. But generally, I prefer Dominion without a lot of tactical intricacies, my favorite part of Dominion has always been picking the vague "strategies", the actual clicking of the cards doesn't do a whole lot for me, so I love a lot of the games that others find boring. The more I have to think in a Dominion game, the unhappier I am.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 10:22:14 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Kirian

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2013, 10:25:35 pm »
+3

Yay! Assumptions!

I'm going to assume each of the competitors is a cylinder 1.75 m high and 0.5 m in radius, to make the math easier.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2013, 10:36:52 pm »
+4

Vids up here:

Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2013, 11:14:09 pm »
+5

Game 1: Adventurer, Colony, Gardens, Governor, Highway, Hoard, King's Court, Platinum, Rabble, Tactician, Torturer, and Worker's Village: Obi Wins 
We both open Tactician.  He picks up a Highway turn 4 which I think cost him, I opt for Torturer on turn 4 and it gets to work early.  I have 9x KC by the end. 
 
Game 2: Bazaar, Cache, Cellar, Merchant Ship, Mining Village, Pawn, Potion, Remake, Trader, Transmute, and Upgrade: ednever Wins 
His Trader/Silver vs. my Remake/Silver.  I really thought I was doing well in this game but got stuck a bit midgame and couldnt pull a 6.  The 2nd Upgrade was certainly a mistake.  I spent $7 on a Pawn which I needed, though with some foresight I probably could've had earlier.  By the end my only prayer was a massive stall from his deck but that didn't happen and he cruised to victory.

Game 3: Bishop, Black Market, Cache, Chancellor, Harvest, Mountebank, Navigator, Shanty Town, Trade Route, and Witch: ednever Wins  Both open Black Market/Silver.  He keeps it simple with Witch-BM, I try to get fancy with a sloppy deck out of the Black Market and a Mountebank.  He has 8 Gold by the end and crushes me. 

Game 4: Harvest, Jester, King's Court, Library, Oracle, Philosopher's Stone, Potion, Scheme, Smithy, Stables, and Trade Route: Obi Wins 
My Silver/Silver vs. his Silver/Smithy.  Early game was disastrous for me and I thought I was done for.  He chooses to buy Provinces on turns 10 and 11 which I think opened the door for my comeback.  If he just kept pounding at the engine I don't think I could have kept up.   By turn 15 he has 3-0 province lead but I counter on turn 16 with 3x Province and a Duchy with confidence that he wont be able to double province for the win, the Schemes allow me to reload and finish on turn 17.

Game 5: Cellar, Expand, Fool's Gold, Fortune Teller, Moat, Navigator, Outpost, Pirate Ship, Possession, Potion, and Stash: ednever Wins 
I have always been bad at Fool's Gold games and this one proves no exception.  The Potion was a longshot response to Expand, I thought I might be able to get lucky.  He was disciplined in the early Fool's Gold race and knew when to buff them up to Golds.  Well played.


Game 6: Colony, Duchess, Farming Village, Governor, Hoard, Horse Traders, Ill-Gotten Gains, Library, Mining Village, Platinum, Quarry, and Village: Obi Wins 
A pretty standard Horse Traders, Ill-Gotten Gains ugly-ass game.  I go for an early Hoard with plans to run Duchies.  We split IGG 5/5.  He doesn't give me any help, completely avoiding Duchies, but in the end the Hoard was too fast and Duchies run.   


Game 7: Black Market, Duke, Envoy, Festival, Merchant Ship, Moat, Tactician, Talisman, Tournament, and Witch: Obi Wins 
A very exciting board to finish on.  I was shocked to see him open Envoy/Silver compared to my Tournament/Black Market.  I suspect he misread the board and didn't quite see how strong and quick the straight Tactician engine could be.  He gets an early Witch whereas I don't even want a Witch until after I have a festival and both Tacticians.  I get an early Province for the Tournament at which point I didn't want to leave Dukes open to him so I hit the Duchies hard, securing a 6/2 split.  Followers lightened the Estates enough that I was able to run them on turn 19 for the win. 


Obi Wan Bonogi advances 4-3


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olneyce

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2013, 11:34:50 pm »
+5

I feel like it's entirely appropriate that these are all 4-3 fights to the death.
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Powerman

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2013, 12:32:22 am »
+2

I'm picking Obi Wan, because he is one of the few players I've played multiple times that I've NEVER beaten.  He's kicked my a** 5 times, and won one nail biter. 

On the other hand, I'm predicting HME will lose, because I'm 3-0 against him, so obviously he's not very good. 
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2013, 12:42:22 am »
+3

I'm picking Obi Wan, because he is one of the few players I've played multiple times that I've NEVER beaten.  He's kicked my a** 5 times, and won one nail biter. 

On the other hand, I'm predicting HME will lose, because I'm 3-0 against him, so obviously he's not very good.

We should have a tournament where instead of playing each other, everyone just plays against Powerman. :)
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ednever

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2013, 01:56:03 am »
+5

Quick comments for the gallery

Game 1: Adventurer, Colony, Gardens, Governor, Highway, Hoard, King's Court, Platinum, Rabble, Tactician, Torturer, and Worker's Village: Obi Wins 
We both open Tactician.  He picks up a Highway turn 4 which I think cost him, I opt for Torturer on turn 4 and it gets to work early.  I have 9x KC by the end. 

Yep. Bad call on the highway here. I was hoping to use it to start picking up Torturer+Worker's Village on the same Tactician turn, but it was a mistake. Getting an early Torturer and having it collide with King's Court is the way to win this. I got schooled.


Game 2: Bazaar, Cache, Cellar, Merchant Ship, Mining Village, Pawn, Potion, Remake, Trader, Transmute, and Upgrade: ednever Wins 
His Trader/Silver vs. my Remake/Silver.  I really thought I was doing well in this game but got stuck a bit midgame and couldnt pull a 6.  The 2nd Upgrade was certainly a mistake.  I spent $7 on a Pawn which I needed, though with some foresight I probably could've had earlier.  By the end my only prayer was a massive stall from his deck but that didn't happen and he cruised to victory.

I was pretty sure BM would dominate over engine here. The question was going Remake or Trader on the open. Then I realized Cache was in play. That tipped me over to Trader. Turns out I never managed a Cache while Trader in hand anyway. But I had a ton of Silvers. With no attacks it allowed to me to green as much as I wanted. Obi trying for an engine here killed him I think.


Game 3: Bishop, Black Market, Cache, Chancellor, Harvest, Mountebank, Navigator, Shanty Town, Trade Route, and Witch: ednever Wins  Both open Black Market/Silver.  He keeps it simple with Witch-BM, I try to get fancy with a sloppy deck out of the Black Market and a Mountebank.  He has 8 Gold by the end and crushes me. 

Another simple BM vs. trying to do something fancy I think. Funny how I used to go BM more until I started getting killed by the great engine makers. I learned from them and started doing engines more often. Then recently I've played great BM players like WW and I'm flowing back in the other direction - at least in tournament play. Seeing simple BM helped twice in a row.


Game 4: Harvest, Jester, King's Court, Library, Oracle, Philosopher's Stone, Potion, Scheme, Smithy, Stables, and Trade Route: Obi Wins 
My Silver/Silver vs. his Silver/Smithy.  Early game was disastrous for me and I thought I was done for.  He chooses to buy Provinces on turns 10 and 11 which I think opened the door for my comeback.  If he just kept pounding at the engine I don't think I could have kept up.   By turn 15 he has 3-0 province lead but I counter on turn 16 with 3x Province and a Duchy with confidence that he wont be able to double province for the win, the Schemes allow me to reload and finish on turn 17.

Great engine board. KC-KC-Scheme-Scheme-X can be a monster. It was my initial plan, but I couldn't get the $7 as fast as he did. As second player I thought my only hope was to go green quick and hope his engine didn't hit in time. I see what Obi is saying in his mid-game stall. I should have been paying more attention and kept going with the engine. Sloppy. As it was he got his engine going just in time and I was done.

Game 5: Cellar, Expand, Fool's Gold, Fortune Teller, Moat, Navigator, Outpost, Pirate Ship, Possession, Potion, and Stash: ednever Wins 
I have always been bad at Fool's Gold games and this one proves no exception.  The Potion was a longshot response to Expand, I thought I might be able to get lucky.  He was disciplined in the early Fool's Gold race and knew when to buff them up to Golds.  Well played.

A pretty terrible board. I go straight Fool's Gold while Obi picks up an early Fortune Teller. It lets me win the split. I also hit an early Expand which turns a few Estates into Stash. It created an incredible counter I had never seen before. Every time Obi played his Fortune Teller it flew through my deck to my single remaining Estate - which often caused a reshuffle - which let me line up my Stashes. It allowed for Provinces pretty fast. Obi goes Potion which may have been his only hope, but it was a real long shot. By the time he gets a Possession and plays it and happens to get me with an Expand in hand, the game will be over I think.

I'm up 3-2 and feeling good...

Game 6: Colony, Duchess, Farming Village, Governor, Hoard, Horse Traders, Ill-Gotten Gains, Library, Mining Village, Platinum, Quarry, and Village: Obi Wins 
A pretty standard Horse Traders, Ill-Gotten Gains ugly-ass game.  I go for an early Hoard with plans to run Duchies.  We split IGG 5/5.  He doesn't give me any help, completely avoiding Duchies, but in the end the Hoard was too fast and Duchies run.   

Ugly game. 2nd player with an IGG rush without a lot of other options. I like IGG a lot when there are other possibilities, but there really weren't here. When he gets the Hoard and manages an early Duchy, I know my only hope is to ignore Duchies and try to get a few Provinces. It doesn't work. His Hoard'd golds let him pick up a Province too. Now my only hope is to grab a Colony. I try with a big hand with draw from Governors, but it's not enough.

There wasn't even time to pick up Hoard. When I drew $6 I picked up Gold for a one-time shot next time through the big deck.

Now for all the marbles...


Game 7: Black Market, Duke, Envoy, Festival, Merchant Ship, Moat, Tactician, Talisman, Tournament, and Witch: Obi Wins 
A very exciting board to finish on.  I was shocked to see him open Envoy/Silver compared to my Tournament/Black Market.  I suspect he misread the board and didn't quite see how strong and quick the straight Tactician engine could be.  He gets an early Witch whereas I don't even want a Witch until after I have a festival and both Tacticians.  I get an early Province for the Tournament at which point I didn't want to leave Dukes open to him so I hit the Duchies hard, securing a 6/2 split.  Followers lightened the Estates enough that I was able to run them on turn 19 for the win. 

Obi was right. I completely misread this board. Very bad play on my part. Just blinders. I see Tournament and think Envoy will help me get an early Province. I look inside the BM and don't see anything compelling (ignoring the fact there is Tactician in play). I try to recover by hitting him with early Witch, but it's already too late. I'm scrambling.

Shows the value of just slowing things down and talking through the possibilities.

Obi wins this one on more discipline.


Well done Obi: Best of luck in the Final Four.
My one piece of advice for you, for what it's worth, is to practice playing some BM sets over the next week. I feel like you out-class me in engines, but anytime I saw a board where engine wasn't dominant I was confident I could win. I think you could play WW in the next round and he's much stronger than I am at BM so you will need to be ready for that.

Good luck! Excited to see how the rest of the tournament plays out!

Ed
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2013, 02:29:58 am »
0

I agree.  I really am a BM noob some times.
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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2013, 02:44:13 am »
0

I agree.  I really am a BM noob some times.
I think it's all the more impressive to get to level 50 if you can still say stuff like this.
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lespeutere

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2013, 02:40:50 pm »
+9

Thief division final
lespeutere vs HiveMindEmulator
We played with official point tracker, identical starting hands, w/o veto and w/o PCE. We had really interesting setups, I shot videos which are up here. I hope sound quality is better than last time. So, let's get into post game analysis:
Overall: 4-2

0-1
Cellar, Fishing Village, Hunting Party, Menagerie, Merchant Ship, Mint, Noble Brigand, Scheme, Steward, and Tunnel
So, there is a lot of +actions available from FV, trashing from steward and mint, but no +buy. I want to involve HP with some merchant ships and FV but that plan doesn't look fast enough to beat HME's plan with just FV, stewards and (minted) golds. We both start FV/steward and both miss t3/4 for me, which is why I feel pretty much done by t5. Anyway, I try to contest him by a noble brigand, pretty surely should've got another, but since I only got 1 HP and 1 scheme, I'm stalling seriously way too soon. I'm not very convinced by his menageries, I guess they should've been another pair of FV/steward or 1, 2 schemes, but there is hardly a way for me to threaten his dominant position, despite some duchy/tunnel buys by me which seem to provice some excitement at the end. They don't: 30 - 39.

1-1
Cache, Familiar, Highway, Library, Market, Moat, Native Village, Potion, Sea Hag, Trader, and Treasury
So, while I'm asking myself whether I want to go familiar or sea hag, I recognise trader and decide to open defensively. As I'll be trading some estates and getting silvers and I'm planning on a NV/library based deck, I start trader/NV vs HME's silver/silver. I get extremely nice draws in the beginning, when I draw estate, trader, NV, 2 coppers on t3 for 2 silvers from the estate, another NV and 1 card set aside. When I then recognise he hasn't got trader, I pick up sea hag on t4 while he eventually contests me on the NV (me winning the split 6/4, which is big here) and gets moats for defense and drawing. On t8, he picks up a potion to buy familiars on t11 and 16 but that's just too slow to do anything against sea hag, even when I have 1 moat only in addition to my trader. I get 2 libraries, a market, go for some more markets and highways, while he started with a highway for his first 5$. It goes very much into a 3pile ending direction, I pick up a province for defense on my first really big turn (t15) alongside market and highway. I get a duchy, as well, but he even buys duchy/highway instead of province/estate on his last turn so that the 3pile is possible for me by buying the last 3 moats: 10 - 2.

2-1
Bridge, Colony, Cutpurse, Familiar, King's Court, Laboratory, Merchant Ship, Moneylender, Platinum, Potion, Trade Route, Trader, and Workshop
This one has quite an interesting tactical consideration to start with: HME opens with 4$. There are familiar and trader, again. My thinking was: if he gets a trader I'll just ignore familar AND trader but go bridge; if he gets a potion I'll get a trader. So he - with game 2 in mind - starts silver/trader and I react silver/bridge to quickly grab labs to quickly grab KCs and be able to somehow play KC/KC/bridge/bridge/bridge. Another thing to think about is the fact that familiar doesn't start cursing as early as sea hag does (on average) so I guess familiar was not the way to go from the start. He gets workshop (not sure what for) and lab, I'm able to pick up 2 labs on t3/4. I get a trade route as a reaction to his potion on t5 which helps a little to connect my important cards, on t7 I get my first KC and then it snowballs into 7 labs, 5 KC and 4 bridges to pile out. T13 could've been it, but I had to wait until t14 (always aware of 3piling by him) when I pile out colonies: 117 - 4.

3-1
Bureaucrat, Jester, Menagerie, Philosopher's Stone, Potion, Royal Seal, Silk Road, Torturer, Venture, Vineyard, and Walled Village
This time there are torturer and jester as potential cursers. And there are walled villages which are nice when you have to wait for some actions to come. I think quite a while in the beginning and decide to mirror his beaurocrat opening since the engine will be too unreliable imho. Beaurocrat is the correct opening for a SR slog here, one could think about interspersing (correct term?) a potion for phil stones as this will be a slog and a late province can be huge. I pick up a walled village and a jester, another bureaucrat and jester until t11 and start greening while HME gets a gold and starts getting torturers and walled villages afterwards. I can make use of WV nicely here, as I can wait for actions to collide and just keep putting it back if I have no collision. I go for SR from t9, pick up a province when I have lots of $ and he contests me for SR but I win the split 5/3 as he stills gets torturers and WV. I am able to give him 2 curses with my jesters (once via the incredible monster combo WV/bureaucrat/jester) and don't mind his cursing too much despite him getting some provinces. When estates are piled out, too (t28) I use my final turns to buy curses and finish the game: 49 - 42.

3-2
Baron, Courtyard, Embassy, Loan, Margrave, Nobles, Remake, Salvager, Scheme, and Workshop
First potentially decisive game and little enginge potential imho. There are nobles as villages and margraves, but they are expensive and CY and baron provide strong BM routes. HME starts silver/CY while I open baron/CY. He wants to prevent collisions and therefore gets 3 terminals (CY, 2 margraves), while I get only baron/CY, 1 more gold while he has more silvers. His handsize reduction hurts but I am able to put up a good fight but his nobles make the difference when he gets 5 provinces equalling my 3 provinces and 4 duchies, decision postponed: 34 - 36.

4-2
Apprentice, Black Market, Cellar, Menagerie, Mountebank, Navigator, Smugglers, Torturer, Upgrade, and Walled Village
I open this game, there are mountebank and torturers, both having their advantages. Torturers definitely hurt, even single ones, but I favour mountebank as it will stymie any real village/torturer engines. I open silver/black market (KC, witch, tournament in there) while he gets silver/navigator. I decide to get a mountebank first. I then get lucky when I hit 5$ on t4 as well to get me an upgrade. HME draws one of the worst combinations he can get: 4$ on t3 (WV) and doesn't want to put aside his next cards when he gets a mountebank as well. I feel significantly ahead and can get 2 more upgrades on t6 and 7 after a silver on t5 while he gets another WV with 4$ (thereby driving him into a WV/torturer direction), an upgrade and a black market. I can keep this lead I could gain here early on and am able to enlarge it even further utilising the upgrade/menagerie synergie and am able to keep my deck clean and draw most of it withou torturers, simply with menageries. HME after the game admitted he didn't consider this synergie so guessed I would've won even without the double 5$ on t3/4 but that, of course, was huge for me and helped a lot to calm down. When curses are gone and I have a substantial lead from 4 provinces by t17, I work towards 3 piling WVs and upgrades since HME had bought quite some WVs and I can upgrade gained WVs into more upgrades rather quickly by t19 for the win of the game and the series: 28 - -4.


Again, it was an interesting series with a very nice opponent, we had some chat/strategy thoughts exchange after the match. HiveMindEmulator was, as expected, a worthy opponent and I'm proud to have advanced to the final four by beating him. Same as for Kristian Bahle applies here: I'd be more than happy to see you again in the next tournament.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2013, 04:46:22 pm »
+2

Wow, except for game 1 those were really interesting games, especially games 2 and 3. Almost inspiring what you did there.  ;)
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2013, 05:52:35 pm »
+1

Yeah, they were all really interesting boards.

Game 1 my plan from the start is just to trash down with Steward and use Mint to provide Golds. Since there is no +buy, I'm happy just having a deck of mostly Gold. Noble Brigand is scary, but Mint allows me to survive it.

Game 2 is really hard to figure out. There are 2 cursers, 2 good defensive reactions, and a lot of good cantrip 5s. When he opens Trader, I know he's not cursing for a while, so I go Silver/Silver to start on the 5s. I end up drawing $2 often enough that I get a bunch of Moats and then don't feel like there is a good time to get Libraries, but of course this kills me since Moat doesn't draw nearly as well... His Trader actually also turns out to be great for just trasing Coppers.

Game 3 is clearly a KC/Lab/Bridge kingdom, but again there is the looming threat of Familiars. I open Trader to try to do what he did last game, but then he just rushed through to the key cards and wins.

Game 4 looks like Silk Roads should be key, but it's hard to figure out exactly what to do. I wanted to also get some Provinces and Vineyards, but really just ended up building too much. He just took Curses from the Torturer to speed up the game end.

Game 5 should probably just be Courtyard BM, but he makes the questionable opening of Baron. Since Baron is going to be pretty useless in 3 card hands, I decide to go for Margrave, which is also questionable, as I pass up a turn 3 Gold. Maybe I should just stick to CY BM... But it ends up working out.

Game 6 I totally miss the Upgrade/Menagerie combo, and really have no chance at all.

Very well played by lespeutere, and good luck in the Final Four!
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lespeutere

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2013, 05:19:41 am »
+1

Wow, except for game 1 those were really interesting games, especially games 2 and 3. Almost inspiring what you did there.  ;)
Thanks alot, that's (one of) the nicest compliment(s) I received for playing this game.  :)
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heron

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2013, 05:09:10 pm »
+3

I'm going to root for Obi Wan Bonogi since he took my spot in the tournament. (I registered late)
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dondon151

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2013, 06:25:12 pm »
+5

-Stef- wins 4-2.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/20/game-20130120-123142-add11c43.html

Masq into Minions with Festival, Steward, and Market on the side. -Stef- got terrible luck throughout (compounded by bad luck on turns 3/4) and I win. -Stef- commented that I shouldn't have broken PPR but I was pretty confident that he couldn't get the last Province and I was also pretty scared of his 2 Masqs.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/20/game-20130120-130654-691255f5.html

We both went with BV-Envoy-Embassy engines. I won the BV split and liked the position that I was in, but my deck stratified into terminals and villages on the last shuffle and -Stef- more or less stole this game out from under me. We commented that Embassy-BM might have been better, but I think engine still wins here because it can gain Duchies pretty quickly and there were a couple of decent cards in the Black Market.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/20/game-20130120-133204-a3a98c42.html

-Stef-'s Swindler was a pain in the butt early on, trashing Copper, Quarry, MV, and Swindler on his first 4 plays. However, he gave me Develops with his Swindler, and I Developed useless NBs into CR/Shanty Town. Mint trashed most of the Coppers and I Developed it into a Talisman to end the game on piles. Probably my best game of this series.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/20/game-20130120-140404-c91b370a.html

Masq into BV-Torturer. I got ahead slightly in the midgame, being able to draw my deck twice, but I had atrocious luck when not only do I draw 4 of my terminals dead, but -Stef- also played a Masq and I had to pass him something good (I passed him a Masq; I probably should have passed him a Torturer instead, but I doubt it would have made a difference). My next hand also featured no BVs and I could not recover with no +buys in the kingdom and -Stef- having trashed down his deck with what was now 3 Masqs.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/20/game-20130120-142237-bdcdf957.html

This was such a weak board. I was hoping to get some Golds and Warehouses and race to Provinces. We both got some bad luck on the reshuffle, but the one somewhat tactically big mistake I made was probably Remodeling my Ironworks into a Gold. I think I also should have played Bureaucrat some more. In any case, I got some dead hands early on and lost a bit of momentum there. I had identified this board as a decent Fairgrounds slog from the start, but went about playing it a little wrong.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/20/game-20130120-144137-198ab774.html

I tried to go with a Shanty Town-Rabble engine supported by Cartographers against -Stef-'s Remodel-FG. First, I definitely should have opened with Remodel/FG. I missed $5 on the reshuffle anyway so it wouldn't have made a difference. Second, I had a shot at winning this if -Stef- hadn't matched his Expand with his Remodel on turn 17, since I was locking him down pretty hard with Rabble. He informed me that he had $8 for the last Province on my last turn, so I just ended the game.

Good games! Guess there is no RisingJaguar this year :( I also really wanted that prize of a Dominion expansion because I am too poor, cheap, and lazy to buy it myself.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 06:30:08 pm by dondon151 »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2013, 07:00:42 pm »
+1

Comments on Stef v dondon:
Game 2: I would think Embassy/Hoard here. The engine doesn't really seem to be doing a huge ton for you, embassy is pretty quick and resilient already, and it pairs REALLY well with hoard. I don't know exactly what was in the BM, but from what you guys drew, especially considering that you aren't getting them until pretty late, I just don't see anything THAT great.

Game 3: I think I would have gone for something that featured swindlers a lot more heavily than either of you guys did. And possibly get trounced, I can't read this one all that great.

Game 5: I really don't like remodel as an opening here. I want a fat deck for my fairgrounds, which basically means I want bureaucrat and smugglers ASAP, but probably ironworks is best. Anyway, lots of those two (particularly smugglers should be really great here) and villages to support as necessary, work my way up to getting ONE province, but then mostly focus on fairgrounds. Prefer province to fairgrounds in a mirror, just because of the smuggler factor.

Game 6: If you're going engine here, I would think it would be to play a zillion monuments a zillion times. Having said that, I think you need another village for that to be viable. Better trashing would not hurt either, but you at least need another village.

dondon151

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2013, 07:15:29 pm »
0

From what I recall, game 2 had Jester in the BM, which is moderately strong if you're looking to gain stuff in an engine or just try to give your opponent a couple of Curses.

I kind of agree with you on game 5; however I opened Remodel to hopefully trash Estate -> Bureaucrat/IW on the reshuffle and give -Stef- one less target to hit with Bureaucrat. Given the terrible turns 3/4, that just didn't work out at all. I don't think that getting a Bureaucrat ASAP is as important in a slog. My plan was to open Remodel, pick up Bureaucrat on the reshuffle and Village/WV if i got $3 or $4, then IW and Cutpurse (especially if I got fortunate enough to Remodel a second Estate). Obviously nothing went according to plan.
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Forge!!!

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2013, 09:30:20 pm »
+1

Congrats on getting this far Dondon!
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-Stef-

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2013, 05:20:55 am »
+4

Thanks a lot for the series dondon. I'm really glad I won it. I must admit up front I was a bit scared of the great unknown.

But about the games themselves:

game 1 - I lose this one almost immediately. We both open Silver/Masq with plans to hit Minions. But here it's even more important to hit $5 then usual, because everything cheaper is terminal. The only 'village' (Festival) is really good in minion games but happens to cost $5 too, and the only noteworthy non-terminals (Cartographer & Market) go for the same price. On my turn 3 I get to $4 after Masquerade with all estates and my Silver already seen play, so I already feel the doom coming for my next 5-copper hand. And that's exactly how it goes down, forcing me to buy Silvers in a deck I don't want them, because I can't just keep buying Feasts. His deck gets better and better, and well so does mine but much slower. On my turn 15 all my cards magically line up and I get to $16 for a double province, tying the province count at 3-3. I still really don't get his next province buy here, because he had this game 99% on a duchy buy (and in the remaining 1% the province doesn't save him either). I'm fresh on a new reshuffle here, but hey, my hand was dead and he took the game so... onto game 2.

game 2 - yeah embassy/hoard. Especially looking at the way the game went down that looks really strong, and we were both considering it during the game. But the BM contained lots of villages, and Expand is really strong once the engine gets going (which is a lot easier when uncontested). Never happened. Probably something similar for dondon, but I got really bad draws here. All game I'm dying to draw some villages, and on turn 10 I get 2 but can't use any (reshuffle coming), on turn 13 I draw 2 with my envoy and basically that's same misery - 3 villages going to waste... oh well my last turn was lucky so that made up for it. But I do know the engine here is capable of a whole lot more then it showed.

game 3 - This was a really interesting and complex set. In my initial analysis I wanted to work up to a turn playing a couple of councilrooms with both talisman and quarry in play. On the way to that turn play as many swindlers as possible. On that turn do some real shopping for maybe 4 villages and 2 more councilrooms. For this I opened Swindler/Talisman, because I thought getting many mining villages / shanty towns would be important. Unfortunately my talisman kept showing up in the $5 hand and I kept choosing 2 villages over the draw card. In the meanwhile I wanted to keep feeding him terminals, but choosing develop over swindler was really short sighted.
On turn 11 I get my big turn but the piles are already a lot lower then I hoped for and it's decision time. I could trade all my money for a gold and 2 mints, and I thought I could still bring this game home going for a really reliable deck now. Guess again. Despite removing all the coppers my next turn is dead, then I get a real turn but one of the mints is gone already, and the next turn is dead again. Exit game.
He played well this game and deserved to take it. I ignored develop too long myself and most importantly I gave him too many.

game 4 - The start here reminded me of game #1 a lot. Again both Masq/Silver, again I draw it turn 3 and again my turn 4 has only treasures. But this time his masq comes on his turn 4 :). Then this turns into a torturer game, but I see a complex decision coming up when to stop investing in the Torturers. Usually that's really simple: just keep buying Torturers until the curses run out. Often one of the players resigns even before that happens. But our early luck was about equal, our masqs were already trashing some curses, and we both doubled up on masqs to be able to accept a few more. The main problem here is only 1 buy/turn. As soon as the curses run out, all the extra torturers are almost useless, both decks would be very reliably and we'd race provinces very fast. I think I stop buying torturers one turn too soon, but he definitely stops late and then a lucky masq hands me this game.

game 5 - No draw so no real engine. Can't ignore the other cards though because of Fairgrounds. So... I was in doubt between Bureaucrat and Cutpurse. His opening Remodel made that an easy choice. I got this one reasonably easy, after we both get incredibly bad early draws.

game 6 - I was quite scared almost all game. I think he played the engine really well, but remodel/FG is just quite strong.

thanks again dondon & onto the final four :)
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Donald X.

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2013, 04:39:17 pm »
+5

In the meanwhile I wanted to keep feeding him terminals, but choosing develop over swindler was really short sighted.
No-one ever wants to Swindle something into Swindler. Then they'd be as powerful as you!
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mith

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Re: 2012 Elite Eight Bracket
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2013, 04:31:45 pm »
0

In the meanwhile I wanted to keep feeding him terminals, but choosing develop over swindler was really short sighted.
No-one ever wants to Swindle something into Swindler. Then they'd be as powerful as you!

Just for Donald: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/27/game-20130127-133104-44ec1590.html
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