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[BitTorrent]

Hi guys on innovation isotopic~

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08/03/2013 - Update



Finally clinched the top 
Next stop...level 50, maybe?

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My nickname on isotopic right now is Tree and I have been played this for about 1000 games... (~400 on another web perform, ~500 in real life and another 60~70 games on isotopic right now, won most of them on isotopic except today I am just too sick to continue )

Well actually some of my game-mates have been playing regularly on isotopic too so if you meet one of them, take a deep breathe and smash them 

I always wish to teach players more about the mechanics of the game instead of just giving them the very few rules of the game, since I think this game actually goes way further than that, that's why I put this topic here.

I don't wanna write a textbook about this though, as I do think that this will be some 100+ pages and I am quite sure Carl will hate me for doing that So I would just try to answer any question you have raised here

If you don't know what to ask though...I shell put down some general topics here:

1.Short game mechanics(games which ends before late age)
2.Middle game mechanics(transitions, taking age lead, etc)
3.Late game mechanics(computer, fission, doomsday lol)
4.Easy combos(ferment/reform/bicycle, paper/philo/perspective, industrialist, capitalist, etc)
5.Icon mechanics(this one is tough to abstract, you better raise cases for me)
6.Sharing dogmas
7.Scoring tactics
8.Achievement hunting
9.Advanced topics(Lead or Objective? Risk on moves? etc)

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Well one of my mates tells me there is an unbeatable AI of innovation released:

 :just want to see if the innovation AI is that 'unbeatable'
 :unbeatable?

me:why
me:what is it



Chill man.

[theory]

If you want to write general strategy articles, maybe I'll write the individual card articles, and we'll do innovationstrategy :-)

[timchen]

Hey! I am curious how often can you beat that AI (especially at 100%). My feeling is that it has its weaknesses but in average it is stronger than anyone I have played with (I probably played with you once or twice only so that doesn't say much about you)

A minor question would be how did you get that corporation on your board... demoncracy+translation?

[popsofctown]

Mathematics seems really good, thought not unbeatable.  I'm often very uncertain about whether to share it, though.  If I share, he immediately draws the card he needs to Math up to the next age.  But potentially, I can get something that helps me counter Mathematics, like a scorer from the next age, since scoring and basic achievements seems like the best way to answer Mathematics.

As a related question, which two ages have the biggest gap in scoring power?

[rrenaud]

What other games do you like?

[BitTorrent]

Re: popsofctown

To me, when to accept a share of Math really depends on what is my aim/perspective at that point of the game...

Let's say if I have already got a good scoring/achievement taking mechanism on the board and I know I am going to follow that track in the following 1-2 rounds, I usually aim at slowing down the pace of the game(e.g. denying my opponent from getting more options/skipping actions/etc.) which means that more likely i am not going to do the Math.

Well when I have no solid mechanism to go for an achievement run, it still depends on what age we are talking about. Say cards in some of the ages would be more brutal, generally the even numbered ages (4,6,8,10). It really depends on whether you want such kind of card for yourself immediately instead of denying your opponent from going on the next age, for example, if my opponent shares the Math to me which both of us can jump to age 6 I would usually take the chance, since I may get cards like Industrialization which I can play around with or Atomic Theory which I can quickly catch up my opponent. To go further in this you will have to know all the cards so well that you know what would both you and your opponent can actually gain from this use of Math, which I do analyze that but most of the time life is easier than I thought 

For a more general framework on countering tech-up-maniac(believe me they exists, there are actually players who would search though the whole age 2 by using writing for 6-7 times in order to take away Mathematics), a few tricks can be used, by applying short game pressure(doing scoring and achievements early on), by sharing dogmas which alters your board to your opponent(e.g. 'draw and meld' effects), by robbing hands from your opponent(effects like Archery and Machinery) and by robbing cards directly from your opponent's board(usually crown related cards like enterprise or banking). Too much details to explain from here so I am not going to list them here. There is a trick though, you intentionally give the free draw to your opponent and use hand robbing cards like archery to take that away so you immediately catch back 

And concern about scoring power...it really depends on can you activate the 'sweet point' of that particular scorer or not, let's say 'currency' in age 2 is actually quite underrated in other discussions like the one in BGG but if you can achieve certain conditions, that card can sweep some 10-30 points in a single action(eg. your opponent is ramming the age deck by using a very powerful drawing mechanism which both age2,3,4,5 cards are empty but you have more crowns than him since you have those capitalist cards:translation, optics and enterprise on your board. Now with currency, you return 1,2,3,4,5,6 from your hand and you actually scores 2,3,4,5,6,6 which is a total of 26 points). In another POV most scoring cards would not give you anything more than 10 points(if they only let you score 1 card from anywhere) so it really depends on which kind of scoring mechanism you want to go for, is that a burst one like currency or canning which use up a large part of resources from you but scoring a lot, or a sustainable one like machine tools which only score 1 card at a time but don't cost you much.

Well it is really more about did you know about the cards enough, but my general advise is, if you want something brutal which gives you a lot of score burst, DON'T GO AGE 3. there is no burst scorers in age 3 and actually most scoring effects in age 3 is connected to some other effects, e.g. Optics and Alchemy.

[BitTorrent]

Re: rrenaud
I really plays a lot, not only board games but other things too...
Speaking of board games I have a time with though the ages back in a couple years ago which I played some 300 games of it but I just can't master that sxxt...too much great players there who will knock you out easily. Of course I play other board games too, like the Dominion and Ascension, RFTG(I have another hundreds of games with it, real), and others.

The style of RFTG really helps in mastering innovation, say basically every card is unique but would have some similarities among themselves...

Re: timchen
Yea you are right I did not try that exclusively but what I find out is that the major weakness of that AI is that most of the time it is running on a shortest path basis, which is not always the best option. In that first game it used its second action for education and jump to an 8, by then I melded machinery(I save that card long ago for an ambush) and grab its hand. The AI used archery to grab that 8 again and meld it, and turns out my enterprise is ready for it 

Sometimes you have to sneak your opponent and sometimes you have to dodge incoming ambush, but that AI doesn't seem bother about that much and just keep going argiculture most of the time...

[theory]

When do you stop with Mathematics?

[Thisisnotasmile]

When do you stop with Mathematics?

When it gets covered up.

[marco2012]

For mathematics, it is hard to stop that (until a blue card is covered)

In general, there are three main ways to counter it:
1) Mass drawing system (draw loads of cards to go to next age) or
2) Board attacking (such as Enterprise or Compass), or
3) Hand attacking (Archery or Machinery)

Note that it is not the way to stop mathematics. Your opponent will still use mathematics. But opponent is harder to use mathematics when you have these controls

[theory]

No, I mean, when do you stop with Mathematics?  Do you just go up to 10 or until Math is covered?  Or are there certain advanced ages that are fine to stop at against someone who is rushing cheevos?

[BitTorrent]

When do you stop with Mathematics?

It usually depends on how far I want to leave my opponent behind, let's say if we only play basic and I grabbed the first 2 achievement. I used Math with a 3 and I jump to 4 without covered up. Without any super drawing engine usually a player can draw about 4 cards a round with appropriate dogma effects, so when I leave a pile of 3 and a pile of 4 behind, which used me 2 full turns, would delay my opponent about 4 full turns. The extra time bought is for you to set-up another scoring mechanism which you no longer have to worry about age top cards in-terms of achieving but to reach the score threshold of the next 2-3 ages which you bypassed your opponent. Once an achievement lead/win is possible, I usually opts for it(unless under some extreme pressure say my opponent is going crazy on Anatomy all the time or I am trolling  ).

Believe me though sometimes I troll with Math on isotopic, doing non-necessary tech-ups 

Another case for Math is that your opponent is moving fast on early game achievements, and right now you have no real ways to stop him from doing so(say he is running Agriculture+Calendar which is so strong in the first 3-4 ages). One of the possible solution is to quickly tech up to somewhere you can quickly remove his score by a lot, say using Combustion in age 7 or Mass Media in age 8 in order to freeze him before he take away enough achievements. To do this precisely you will have to know where exactly you are going for, although such cards are usually found in later ages.

The reason why I don't actually like the idea of tech-up all the time with Math is that there is a deadly counter called Road Building back in age 2, which is dogma on castle(most cases you don't have much castle if you move up quickly with Math) so you can't do anything with it. I did have a real life game some months ago where I am still in Age3, I promoted the Road Building from my forecast, meld a Plumbing with it and give it to my opponent which covers up the industrialization on his board and I take away his Electricity. Now I am in Age 7 where my opponent is back to Age 5 in one single action. Make it simple, blindly Math-up your board all the time usually leaves few icons and a lot of potential weakness, which is not always the best choice.

Actually there are times that I intentionally get back to early ages after a jump, say I used writing and get a 2 on my board. There are games that I followed up with Mysticism and get back to Age 1, when I see a potential Metalworking chain or something similar(Clothing, etc.)

If you can win the game in age 6, why bothers about those doomsday cards in age 10? 

[theory]

What do you think of Echoes?

[BitTorrent]

What do you think of Echoes?

You mean the EoP expansion?

About 200-300 of my overall games are played with EoP. Well there are mixed feelings...at first I must give credit to Carl since he actually made an expansion of a game which does not overshadow the base set itself, in other words, echo cards are not more powerful than the base cards(not the case in FiS though that thing makes you insane). Actually quite a lot of echo cards are inferior to the base set cards since their mechanics are not that smooth. Let's say echo cards like pencil or slide rule which would allow you to advance an age by getting cards into your hand or your foreshadow, with weird icon combination or dogma conditions. Pencil is a yellow bulb card but only comes with 1 bulb(also an echo of draw an 5 and a bonus icon) which really doesn't buy you icon advantage(1 bulb is really silly); Slide rule in the other hand, can actually allow you to draw a 9 as an age 4 card but you would have to do a lot of things before that can happened(all 5 colors sprayed + your lowest top card is at least age 4 - Slide rule is age 4). It is like echo expansion actually slows you down from going tech-up-maniac, instead it gives you extra score from time to time so you can do achievement even you are under some trouble.

Another story is that echo cards alters a bit of the original action mechanics, in base set you can only choose to meld a card and execute it or execute a card and go for an objective(achievement or something else). Sometimes it is easy to determine whether your opponent can achieve the next achievement or not due to the applications of such mechanics. Now he/she can meld a card, promote a brutal scorer from their forecast, give them enough score and take the achievement in the second action. Forecast cards does not only give you options later, it also give you an extended action which is like you stored an action point in Though The Ages or whatsoever.

Some other observation includes the stupidity of those Age 10 cards (e.g. the 1x1x1 puzzle cube which someone may win with it simply because none of their colors are splayed), the childish side of Carl (Rock, Paper and Scissor, etc.), some new icon mechanics (e.g. clock on yellow cards and leaf on red cards, if you want some further insight I may explain some of those).

The final words are here: if you want something powerful, don't go echo cards, you will get disappointed.

[popsofctown]

Clock on yellow cards?  Doesn't the base set already have clocks on yellow cards like Bicycle?

Do all the reds in base set lack a leaf?

[Drab Emordnilap]

Clock on yellow cards?  Doesn't the base set already have clocks on yellow cards like Bicycle?

Do all the reds in base set lack a leaf?

Isn't Bicycle green?

[theory]

Is Echoes an "expansion" in the same way as RFTG: TGS, or Dominion, in that Innovation + Echoes >>>>> Innovation?  Or is it an "expansion" like the expansions to El Grande, which are kind of lame.

[BitTorrent]

Clock on yellow cards?  Doesn't the base set already have clocks on yellow cards like Bicycle?

Do all the reds in base set lack a leaf?

As Drab said Bicycle is green and none of the yellow cards in base set have any clocks on it. The same case for base red cards which have no leaf at all.

Actually in base set yellow cards are like regulators to bulbs and clocks which have a majority of leaf(excels in robbing hands and hinders scoring) and a group of factory cards which act somewhat like red cards. It also holds Skyscraper, the most brutal counter to any clock cards(due to the generally intact behavior of most clock cards you simply can't do much with it, as their effects usually do not involve their opponent's decision, think of bioengineering, computers, software or fission).

Yellow clock cards in echo expansion generally behave similarly as usual clock cards, the kind of regulation mechanism is shifted a bit to purple side(You can find a lot of purple echo leaf cards with demand effects, although most of them are reckless - say ice cream "I demand you draw and meld a 1" in age 7).

Echo leaf red card though (actually there is only 1 of them - Bandage) is more like a solo wild card which do a bit of every leaf thing, demanding your opponent to returning cards from board and score pile + a bit of leaf development for yourself.

Re: theory

That is quite personal, real. Some of my mates hate playing with echoes since it alters the game mechanics so much, I like it as I am already used to it (it is even more drastic after adding FiS). Can't really tell you about that one.

Though Carl stated in the rulebook that you should not teach echoes to someone who don't even familiar with base set, and I wonder how tough it is to teach FiS later on...... 

[popsofctown]

^^^^^^^^^^^I automatched against this dude yesterday and asked him if he was that guy that is an innovation god. He said he was no god.  He then proceeded to beat me with nothing but Inclined Plane, Sale of Indulgences, and Slide to Unlock.

[BitTorrent]

^^^^^^^^^^^I automatched against this dude yesterday and asked him if he was that guy that is an innovation god. He said he was no god.  He then proceeded to beat me with nothing but Inclined Plane, Sale of Indulgences, and Slide to Unlock.

Well that game is really a bad one for me... Say that education on second action is simply a bad move, I just don't wanna draw a card nor go Optics again since I don't want Engineering at that point(yea Optics is like my friend I simply kick everyone with it back in the F14 plaform), but actually acquire a 6 will being shot by your archery so I better do nothing there. The only nice play made by me is I intentionally returned those cards for your Physics so you will not fail(thus all the 6 cards are being drawn by you) so I can use industrial once to tuck the rail back and another action to spray my blue to got enough clocks, and Empire. Nah I don't want to extend that game further from there since I am not so sure that can I beat you by score there since I am down about 20...

[marco2012]

In fact, I play several games on isotropic, and notice that some people are 'afraid' of sharing dogmas

Dogmas that related to scoring are not worth sharing (e.g. Metalworking, Chemistry, Evolution) except that you can chaim an achievement after this dogma. But what about dogma about 'draw and meld', like Sailing or Experiment?

[timchen]

I would say even sharing a scoring dogma can often be good. The key factor may be to interfere with opponent's plan.

For example, I often share metalworking when I see the opponent melded masonry and took a few draw actions.

[marco2012]

In fact, I see Masonry as good first card just because it is 3 castle.

Using this to get monument is just risky and time-consuming (if opponent use clothing as its starting card, it ruins that plan already)

[timchen]

sure. just saying sharing score may or may not be a good idea, depends on what you and your opponent want to do.

[popsofctown]

In fact, I see Masonry as good first card just because it is 3 castle.

Using this to get monument is just risky and time-consuming (if opponent use clothing as its starting card, it ruins that plan already)

Using Masonry to get Monument is indeed risky and time consuming.  I still end up doing it a lot with Masonry in opening hands though, just because having Masonry in your open hand damages your ability to do other stuff quite a bit.  You have a Masonry out, all you can do with it is use its dogma to meld Domestication, so you draw a card, and then it's Oars.  Then you're like, that's not helpful in age 1, so you draw again and you get Clothing.  By then your opponent has Agriculture or Pottery, so you're like, this isn't useful, so you draw again and it's the Wheel.  And now you have the Wheel and hey that's a nifty card but you're at 3 castles in hand, it's only one more to get the Monument thing, that seems kinda worthwhile right? 

I might be slipping into a trap though.  Maybe I should cut losses and meld the Oars and Domestication in that example, but it's not too hard for my opponent to make me share the Domestication so that still feels like a crappy opening.