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[Robz888]

Not so bad, though I think Storeroom might be underrated.

Really? Storeroom might be really good in some situations, but I think it's a really weak card in general.
I think both Urchin and Storeroom are overrated, Sage a little bit overrated and Forager is underrated.

I don't know if it's a weak card in general. It really eases the greening. Loves alternate VP strategies, etc. So great with tunnel.

[Beyond Awesome]

Storeroom is underrated. Forager is underrated. Sage is overrated.

[WanderingWinder]

Can someone explain why urchin is this high?

[Beyond Awesome]

Can someone explain why urchin is this high?

I honestly don't know. It is a tricky card to use. Sometimes, it is good, but usually, it is not. It is pretty good to have in your deck with no other trashing and junking attacks are out.

[Qvist]

Can someone explain why urchin is this high?

I have no idea. I had it at #24.

[D Bo]

Man, I love me some Tunnels, but someone had that as their number 1!

So far from these rankings I'm learning that I need to play way more Dark Ages...

[Tables]

Can someone explain why urchin is this high?

Because it's sexy and most people haven't played enough DA to get a proper feel, so that sexiness boosts it's rank.

Kinda the opposite of Oracle, which looked boring, the name is to some degree synonymous with Fortune Teller (which is bad) and so it kinda got meh ratings, despite being really good.

Speaking of which, I think Oracle is a little low. It's attack is somewhat luck dependent, but between the spy-before-draw and spy opponent's deck, I usually find it's pretty powerful. I think in retrospect I overrated it in my list, but not by too much (I put it 8th, i.e. I was the 2nd highest rater of it). I'd probably after reconsideration put it maybe... 11th?

[ftl]

Sage overrated IMO! Barely gives any economy!

Urchin is weird. It loses badly in the presence of good trashers like steward, chapel, etc. because you'd usually rather have trashing now than trashing+Attack+buying things later. But it's so dominating compared to not-getting-a-trasher, because it's both trash AND attack AND buying power so you can make up for the time lost buying urchins once you get them to collide. I think it'll typically be better than single-card trashers like loan, lookout, forager?

[chwhite]

Lookout is criminally low here.  Non-terminal trashing is great, folks, and the fear of "having" to trash your good cards is way overblown.

Oracle rising and Tunnel falling to this level are both expected, and are both correct.  But I probably wouldn't move either of them further.

I haven't played with it, but Urchin feels high to me- it looks like it's just not that useful on its own, and lining things up to get a Marauder is pretty kludgy.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I don't really get Urchin either. It seems the attack is innocuous at best. Yeah it's a cantrip so it doesn't hurt you to have it, but it's at best slightly better than Spy. Mercenary is decent, but since the trash is required, it's not that easy to be able to use it. All-in-all the whole thing doesn't impress me. I'm sure there are great things to do with it, but I'm not sure about how frequently you can actually pull it off. Seems like you mostly need some way of drawing a lot of cards as well as gaining cards. That way you get the Urchins kind of for free, and then you can get stuff for the Mercenary to trash. That seems to make it too situational for me. Though I would not be surprized if I were completely wrong about it...

The things I'm sure are misplaced are Lookout and Tunnel. Lookout fear is unjustified. Just don't play the Lookout. It's not the only trasher that becomes useless late game. And it's a really good one early game. Compare it to Masquerade. It cycles the same amount and trashes the same amount, and it's non-terminal. The drawback of course is that it doesn't help your current turn if you don't have a way of drawing the card you left on top, but then it still helps your next turn. Now clearly it's not actually as good as Masquerade because helping your current turn is a big deal, and you can still use the Masq as basically +2 cards late game. But the fact that it's at least kind of close in the early game for engines should be worth something...

Tunnel I probably underrate it a bit, but 12 is way too high, imo. For the most part, Tunnel is just a big Estate. And Estates are bad, mostly. It can't provide enough VPs to really matter most of the time, and it's not an action card, so it requires significant support to really do anything. And even then, all it does is gain Gold, which is not really all that great a lot of the time, since adding the Gold is only offsetting the pollution of your deck with Tunnels. Sure there are some really powerful combos with cards that draw and then discard (Young Witch, Vault, Storeroom, Embassy, Warehouse). But outside of that, it's very situational.

[SirPeebles]

I had a 4 player game where enemy knights hit my Cultists several times, giving me huge hands which were then cut in half by an Urchin.  So yeah, Urchin can still be a strong attack whenever your opponent's handsize grows between turns.

Also, Mercenary is pretty awesome when you pair it with stuff want to trash.  It's sad when you draw it with nothing to trash though.

But I'd say Urchin/Merc is overrated here.

[Wingnut]

Urchin itself just sucks. Mercenary on the other hand is amazing, especially in games with no trashing. When that is the case Urchin to get to Mercenary is an absolute necessity if there is any engine of value on the board. That said, it is a little bit overranked. The boards where it is needed are greatly outnumbered by boards with other trashing where Urchin won't hurt and Mercenary is too slow to get.

[Powerman]

Lookout is criminally low here.  Non-terminal trashing is great, folks, and the fear of "having" to trash your good cards is way overblown.

Oracle rising and Tunnel falling to this level are both expected, and are both correct.  But I probably wouldn't move either of them further.

I haven't played with it, but Urchin feels high to me- it looks like it's just not that useful on its own, and lining things up to get a Marauder is pretty kludgy.

Lookout, a little underrated yes.  I'd say 17 or 18 is where it should be.

Oracle's fine.  I think it's risen enough now.  I put it a rank or two lower than it is now, but it's somewhere in the 13-17 range.

Tunnel I agree.  It has many many enablers, but outside of ~5 of them it often hurts your early game economy.

I personally think Urchin is fair.  A non-terminal attack like that really hurts a BM strategy, as it makes it much harder to hit Golds early, and then can also hurt for province buying later.  I guess it's kind of like Cutpurse, and I think Cutpurse is pretty good.

[Khyad Halda]

I personally think Urchin is fair.  A non-terminal attack like that really hurts a BM strategy, as it makes it much harder to hit Golds early, and then can also hurt for province buying later.  I guess it's kind of like Cutpurse, and I think Cutpurse is pretty good.

Urchin's attack does nothing far more often than Cutpurse.

[Beyond Awesome]

About 95% of the time, Urchin makes me discard a green card. Rarely does it make me discard a copper or some other card that will add value to my turn. Urchin alone is practically a Pearl Diver without the top-decking ability.

[HiveMindEmulator]

About 95% of the time, Urchin makes me discard a green card. Rarely does it make me discard a copper or some other card that will add value to my turn. Urchin alone is practically a Pearl Diver without the top-decking ability.

You have a green card in your hand 95% of the time? That sounds like a lot...

[Beyond Awesome]

About 95% of the time, Urchin makes me discard a green card. Rarely does it make me discard a copper or some other card that will add value to my turn. Urchin alone is practically a Pearl Diver without the top-decking ability.

You have a green card in your hand 95% of the time? That sounds like a lot...

I was exaggerating to make a point.

[jonts26]

About 95% of the time, Urchin makes me discard a green card. Rarely does it make me discard a copper or some other card that will add value to my turn. Urchin alone is practically a Pearl Diver without the top-decking ability.

You have a green card in your hand 95% of the time? That sounds like a lot...

I was exaggerating to make a point.

Maybe we should be realistic to make a more accurate point?

Urchin rarely hurts in the early game and late game. It has some minimal attack power in the mid game where green is scarce. It's not where it is because of itself though, its there because mercenary is a pretty good card. But I wouldnt call it a power card. You run out of targets fairly quickly. Urchin would be a lot more useful with council room/governor where the discard is a lot more effective.

[dondon151]

There's also the Mercenary vs. Mercenary problem, where 2 opponents have perpetually 3 card hands, pitch the rest of their hands to Mercenary for the attack, and end up blindly drawing 2 cards and getting nowhere.

[Beyond Awesome]

My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.

[jonts26]

My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.

You talk about hermit without ever mentioning madman. It's probably the best part of the card.

[Tables]

My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.

Compare Jack of all Trades. It doesn't trash great, but it trashes possibly out of hand, that's nice. It gains a $3, that's not great, but it's nice. And it has the potential to turn into a potent one shot. It's not Jack, but it does a pretty decent job of clearing some bad stuff, replacing it with good stuff, then disappearing in a big turn.

[Powerman]

My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.

I haven't played with it THAT much, but from what I've seen, if there are cards costing <3 other than silver you want it is very very strong.  Especially if you want $3 villages to build an engine, as then it is similar to a better remodel.

[werothegreat]

I hate Lookout.  The whole blind trashing thing always gets me.  It's fine early game, but by midgame it's such a liability.  I would much rather have a Forager.

[Beyond Awesome]

My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.

I haven't played with it THAT much, but from what I've seen, if there are cards costing <3 other than silver you want it is very very strong.  Especially if you want $3 villages to build an engine, as then it is similar to a better remodel.

That's a good point. I am probably slightly undervaluing Hermit, but there are still many boards, I don't want it. Unlike Jack where I almost always want it because it is just that good...Unless, there is a strong engine on the board that can outrace Jack.