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Author Topic: Decline of civility on isotropic?  (Read 226881 times)

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Jack Monkey Squat

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2011, 11:26:28 pm »
0

And frankly, I hope that you get horrible luck when you face me

This. 
Or at least, I prefer it when my opponents don't have especially good luck... in fact, I sometimes reply to a "gl" with something along the lines of "may your luck be a little worse than mine"... because y'know what?  all else being equal, I'd rather have the better luck... not that wishing for it makes a lick of difference anyway...
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2011, 05:14:53 am »
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That said, if I lose 115 to -3, and I say "gg"...you can assume that's a snarky comment.  Chances are what's coming out of my mouth doesn't start with g's...

If I lose by such a big margin, I will 'gg' if it WAS a good game and I got outplayed. That is perfectly possible in a game with such a scoreline. However, if I lose by such a margin because of my opponent stalling for time with a goons engine when I've already taken 10 curses to his initial torturer chain when he could have easily just ended the game 20 turns ago, I won't 'gg'. Likelyhood is I'll 'bg'. And that's only if I haven't already resigned without asking permission.
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Nimmy

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2011, 05:20:22 am »
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For me civility means acknowledging you're defeated before you resign (you don't *have* to ask if you can resign, though), and apologizing if you were slow for some reason (problem with your internet connection, a phone call, etc). If you don't want  to say "hi/gg" that's ok, but you're being rude.


For me, "hi/gg" is all about acknowledging you and your opponents are human beings. Anything is ok, really, the whole point is just to say something, anything, during the entire game so that your opponent doesn't feel like he is playing against an emotionless computer.
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PetterTB

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2011, 06:02:02 am »
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The worst thing I came across was a guy that said I was cheating. He had played his cards as best as possible, and I still had that mout or w.e. so he didn't win. So I was cheating. His finishing comment was:

"I won this one, you know that"

Another guy tried to "tip" me that contrabands should be the last treasure you play..

About the resign thing, I didn't know about the resign button before some days ago. So I stayed when I lost! In some few cases, wheere he had 6 provinces, I had 6 curses and a worse deck, and he still thought for ages about what to do, to be able to not only buy VP but also to give me more curses, and then even bought duchies! Then I simply left.

I don't allways type in the gl hf, and im almost allways the last one to do it, since I'm usually perusing the cards the first seconds. Still, if the opponent start chatting away, or discuss the game, I'm all in :)
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2011, 06:12:18 am »
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Another guy tried to "tip" me that contrabands should be the last treasure you play..

Love it!
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Personman

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2011, 07:09:51 am »
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On the topic of the OP, yes, civility has declined significantly over time -- but maybe over a longer time scale than you think. In the very early days of isotropic, pre-rankings, pre-dominionstrategy.com, pre-BGGDL, I think I had fairly involved conversations with at least half the people I played with, and seriously EVERYONE was really nice. There also weren't very many of everyone :P

Isotropic remains one of the best-mannered and most friendly online gaming communities I've ever seen, but as always there is a cost to growth. I see people whine about bad luck a lot more often now, and there have been a few offensive user names/people spamming lobby chat with swear words, and VERY occasionally I've had someone actively rude to me in a game.

There is of course nothing anyone can do about it except to be polite yourself. I haven't done this recently, but I used to always take a bit of time out of a session to find a new player and help them figure out the website and welcome them to the community -- perhaps it's less useful now that it's so much bigger and a new player will easily find other new players to learn with, but still, I should do some more of that.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 07:11:46 am by Personman »
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theory

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2011, 07:36:15 am »
+2

And frankly, I hope that you get horrible luck when you face me

This. 
Or at least, I prefer it when my opponents don't have especially good luck... in fact, I sometimes reply to a "gl" with something along the lines of "may your luck be a little worse than mine"... because y'know what?  all else being equal, I'd rather have the better luck... not that wishing for it makes a lick of difference anyway...
I wonder if you say this in real life.  "Good luck on the exam!"  "I hope you fail so you can push down the curve and indirectly boost my grade."
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2011, 08:08:14 am »
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Well, my philosophy is this: I always say hi or GL and mean it, and I always say gg because it is respectful win or lose.  I resign when I feel I have no chance without asking permission because that is a valid way to end a game.  We are free to knock over our King whenever we choose.  Why would I ever ask permission for something that I am going to do no matter what the answer?  That would be completely insincere. 

I am sorry if it offends, but don't expect me to chat you up.  I am there to play a game.  If I wanted to etalk I would go to IM or a chat room or something.  That being said, if someone asks me a question or seeks some kind of insight I am happy to oblige.  I will never disparage anyone or be a bad winner or loser.  I am happy when I win and happy when I lose, providing I learned something.  Bad luck is just part of the game.

One more thing, I don't care for hf.  I wouldn't presume to tell you to enjoy anything.  It is kind of stupid.  It is not at all offensive, just stupid.  Hey person I don't know!  Enjoy this trouncing I am about to do my best to lay on you!  I mean it's not like we are having a contest to see who can give each other more Care Bears.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2011, 11:05:04 am »
0

I tend to sign off with "wp" rather than "gg" when I've lost.
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painted_cow

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2011, 12:46:22 pm »
0

I always start with "hi, gl hf", just because it seems standard to me in competitive 1on1 gaming.

Its clear that you dont really want your opponent to draw perfectly each turn, but it would be good when he doesnt have this really bad draws like Potion and 2 in Familar-games and no "doing nothing turns" at all. In Magic you also dont really want to win versus a screwed/flooded opponent. Its much better if both players get their strategy on like they wanted and then see, which strategy was better.

Saying "gg" is also standard. Only sometimes when i am really pissed i "forget" this. This can happen if you lose like 4 games in a row and you drew only 7$ in last turns :-)
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Jack Monkey Squat

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2011, 01:56:19 pm »
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I wonder if you say this in real life.  "Good luck on the exam!"  "I hope you fail so you can push down the curve and indirectly boost my grade."

if I'm in a competitive situation, I want to come out ahead... I especially don't want to lose simply because someone else better fortune than I do... that said, your example fails because the lack of good luck doesn't imply the presence of bad fortune... a more accurate sentiment would be "I hope you score one point worse than me" (aka: "I hope I score one point better than you"), and if I had been competitive about grades, maybe that would have been an accurate sentiment... but I wasn't, so it wasn't relevant...

but let's turn this around... do you really want all of your classmates to have good fortune on exams and end up with higher scores than you, pushing your grade down, no matter how proficient you are in the subject matter?  or, to put this back in the context of the game (where it really belongs), do you really want me to always have perfect draws?  always getting to play villages before smithies?  always having the right reaction card for your attacks?  always swindling/sabotaging your most critical cards?  I certainly wouldn't want that...
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Death to Sea Hags

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2011, 03:20:49 pm »
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That said, if I lose 115 to -3, and I say "gg"...you can assume that's a snarky comment.  Chances are what's coming out of my mouth doesn't start with g's...

If I lose by such a big margin, I will 'gg' if it WAS a good game and I got outplayed. That is perfectly possible in a game with such a scoreline. However, if I lose by such a margin because of my opponent stalling for time with a goons engine when I've already taken 10 curses to his initial torturer chain when he could have easily just ended the game 20 turns ago, I won't 'gg'. Likelyhood is I'll 'bg'. And that's only if I haven't already resigned without asking permission.

This.

I dislike players taking too long to end an obviously-won game. Losing stinks, especially if you've had bad luck in a game, so I can understand some soreness from losers. But if you've already won, just end the game. If you only need to ironworks a $2 card to get a third pile, don't keep running your engine and buying VP. I can understand being worried that your thin deck is about to stall out, so you need to get enough points to prevent a comeback.  There's no points for margin of victory.  RUTSing is truly lame.


Just had a colony game where other player is up by 30+.  "You've got this one," I say, pop the score from the point counter. I try to be subtle: I buy three estates, so there's only two left. He buys a colony <i>and a silver</i>.  I buy another estate - and point out that he could've ended the game and won.  He buys a Province <i>and a duchy</i>.

I'll walk from that kind of game.  Just leave the window open and make him wait for the time-out.
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rrenaud

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2011, 04:32:39 pm »
0


This.

I dislike players taking too long to end an obviously-won game. Losing stinks, especially if you've had bad luck in a game, so I can understand some soreness from losers. But if you've already won, just end the game. If you only need to ironworks a $2 card to get a third pile, don't keep running your engine and buying VP. I can understand being worried that your thin deck is about to stall out, so you need to get enough points to prevent a comeback.  There's no points for margin of victory.  RUTSing is truly lame.


Just had a colony game where other player is up by 30+.  "You've got this one," I say, pop the score from the point counter. I try to be subtle: I buy three estates, so there's only two left. He buys a colony <i>and a silver</i>.  I buy another estate - and point out that he could've ended the game and won.  He buys a Province <i>and a duchy</i>.

I'll walk from that kind of game.  Just leave the window open and make him wait for the time-out.

That is assholery IMO.  If you've lost, just leave.  Don't take 5 minutes from this guys life.  The winner can't leave and get his win, but you can leave and get your loss.
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Eagle

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2011, 05:02:01 pm »
0


This.

I dislike players taking too long to end an obviously-won game. Losing stinks, especially if you've had bad luck in a game, so I can understand some soreness from losers. But if you've already won, just end the game. If you only need to ironworks a $2 card to get a third pile, don't keep running your engine and buying VP. I can understand being worried that your thin deck is about to stall out, so you need to get enough points to prevent a comeback.  There's no points for margin of victory.  RUTSing is truly lame.


Just had a colony game where other player is up by 30+.  "You've got this one," I say, pop the score from the point counter. I try to be subtle: I buy three estates, so there's only two left. He buys a colony and a silver.  I buy another estate - and point out that he could've ended the game and won.  He buys a Province and a duchy.

I'll walk from that kind of game.  Just leave the window open and make him wait for the time-out.

That is assholery IMO.  If you've lost, just leave.  Don't take 5 minutes from this guys life.  The winner can't leave and get his win, but you can leave and get your loss.


Sure, if you've lost, just leave, but by the same argument, if you've won, just win.  If the winning player is obviously intent on wasting the losing player's time just to be an ass, I think they deserve to have a bit of theirs wasted in return.
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nemryn

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2011, 05:48:28 pm »
0


This.

I dislike players taking too long to end an obviously-won game. Losing stinks, especially if you've had bad luck in a game, so I can understand some soreness from losers. But if you've already won, just end the game. If you only need to ironworks a $2 card to get a third pile, don't keep running your engine and buying VP. I can understand being worried that your thin deck is about to stall out, so you need to get enough points to prevent a comeback.  There's no points for margin of victory.  RUTSing is truly lame.


Just had a colony game where other player is up by 30+.  "You've got this one," I say, pop the score from the point counter. I try to be subtle: I buy three estates, so there's only two left. He buys a colony and a silver.  I buy another estate - and point out that he could've ended the game and won.  He buys a Province and a duchy.

I'll walk from that kind of game.  Just leave the window open and make him wait for the time-out.
That is assholery IMO.  If you've lost, just leave.  Don't take 5 minutes from this guys life.  The winner can't leave and get his win, but you can leave and get your loss.
If it becomes known that being an ass means you'll have to wait an extra 5-10 minutes before you officially win, perhaps that will be an incentive to not be an ass.
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painted_cow

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2011, 06:06:08 pm »
0


This.

I dislike players taking too long to end an obviously-won game. Losing stinks, especially if you've had bad luck in a game, so I can understand some soreness from losers. But if you've already won, just end the game. If you only need to ironworks a $2 card to get a third pile, don't keep running your engine and buying VP. I can understand being worried that your thin deck is about to stall out, so you need to get enough points to prevent a comeback.  There's no points for margin of victory.  RUTSing is truly lame.


Just had a colony game where other player is up by 30+.  "You've got this one," I say, pop the score from the point counter. I try to be subtle: I buy three estates, so there's only two left. He buys a colony <i>and a silver</i>.  I buy another estate - and point out that he could've ended the game and won.  He buys a Province <i>and a duchy</i>.

I'll walk from that kind of game.  Just leave the window open and make him wait for the time-out.

Imo not ending the game when it is clear like that and you even helped him  to buy Estates sucks hard! But timing ourself out isnt really much better anyway...
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Personman

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2011, 08:55:40 pm »
0

Do you guys know about the resign button? At the beginning of your turn you can click 'end turn' and it will appear. Try it out some time!
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2011, 12:29:36 am »
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The point remains, if at any time you can end the game with a win you should immediately do so.
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Personman

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2011, 12:45:11 am »
0

I don't agree in the general case. In particular, I think it's very reasonable to play out a long last turn and try to buy as many VP as possible instead of just plunking down 8 and buying that last province.

I often to just buy the province, cause I've played out plenty of last turns and I don't really care that much. But doing so isn't terribly rude -- your opponent may even enjoy seeing you go off.

There's also a fine line between playing safely and dragging the game on uselessly. I've lost a number of games I was sure I had in the bag by trying to end them to quickly. Dominion is pretty high variance, and it's very possible for crazy come-from-behind wins to occur if you are not very careful. So think twice before you hate someone for dragging it out. They might think you have a chance -- and if you don't agree, you can always just resign.
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Axe Knight

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2011, 01:12:47 am »
0

Keep in mind, not everyone counts points, so they may not be aware that they could win.  I like to think that's the case when someone does that to me, rather than "running up" the score; there's so many games on isotropic, it probably doesn't do much if someone crushes me by 50 or squeaks by on a tiebreaker.  Up until I started playing isotropic, I was still stuck in "Must have as many Provinces as possible" mode.  Me personally, I'm scared to death of losing if I don't win as soon as I possibly can. 
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PetterTB

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2011, 04:13:39 am »
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This does boil down to the good old "turn the other cheek" - dilemma.

He does asshattery to me, should I do asshattery to him? If it seems like he is playing with you, you have 1 province and a wrecked deck, he has 5 and an engine, and then starts buying gardens, then by all means tell him to end the game! I also find it offensive when someone leading by a mile desides to use 5min. on his turn to be entire sure he can buy that last estate :rolleyes:. Off course actually just leaving is reserved for intenses situations.
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Eagle

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2011, 11:34:07 am »
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Keep in mind, not everyone counts points, so they may not be aware that they could win.  I like to think that's the case when someone does that to me, rather than "running up" the score; there's so many games on isotropic, it probably doesn't do much if someone crushes me by 50 or squeaks by on a tiebreaker.  Up until I started playing isotropic, I was still stuck in "Must have as many Provinces as possible" mode.  Me personally, I'm scared to death of losing if I don't win as soon as I possibly can.


If it's close I totally get it.  There's many games where I'm not sure if I'm ahead or not.  There's probably been many times I could have won it, but didn't because I wasn't sure if I should buy the last card or not.


But there's many games where it's very obvious who is winning and who is losing, and in those cases it's just rude of the winner to drag it out as long as possible.  (And one could make the argument that it's rude of the loser to keep dragging it out too.)


I propose a "resign" button that you can use when it's not your turn.
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guided

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2011, 01:21:56 pm »
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If you feel somebody is dragging out the game, make a polite comment about it to point out that they could win rather than continuing (maybe they didn't realize a 3-pile ending was available?), or resign on your turn. If you deliberately time out instead of resigning, you are a hundred times worse of a human being than somebody who fails to end the game at the first opportunity. Inexcusable, period.

Personally, I tend to get very paranoid about comebacks and will sometimes run up the score rather than working toward the fastest possible ending, even if I think I'm probably ahead. This especially applies to things like Goons games (where comebacks are all too possible if you start buying Coppers), and Vineyards games (where I have no F'ing clue what the score is). I have lost games because I didn't do this. But when I do this I make it a point to tell my opponent in the chat that I'm not drawing things out deliberately, just doing my best to ensure victory.
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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2011, 01:46:42 pm »
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Saying gg, gl every game may be vacuous, but it is civil. Playing a game without saying anything is just a bit unpleasant. You can at least say bg if it was totally one-sided. Oh, and rubbing it in if you're winning isn't very much fun - isotropic needs a 'disable chat' feature if it doesn't have one already.
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rls22

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2011, 02:02:01 pm »
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I agree with the folks that have said “hi, gl” and “gg”, are essentially “hello” and “goodbye” in my mind.  They don’t really mean anything, but it’s nice to acknowledge your opponent. 

I personally, am happy to chat if someone asks questions or wants to interact (I had someone ask me to critique their strategy post-game the other day, which was sort of odd, but I was happy to do it).  But, I’ll rarely start an interaction on chat, unless something funny or cool happens in the game.

On the topic of general civility, I haven’t experienced any change really since auto-match was implemented.  I’ve only had maybe 2-3 negative interactions in all of my games (mocking my strategy or calling me insulting names).  When I first started playing, I was actually shocked by how nice and civil everyone was.   I will say, there was a thread on BGG that made me think it would be nice to have a feature where I could make my own personal “blacklist” of people who are actively rude or extremely, extremely slow, but that’s sort of an idle desire, not something I think the community really needs.
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