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Author Topic: Decline of civility on isotropic?  (Read 249725 times)

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Eagle

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #100 on: June 23, 2011, 10:22:34 am »
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I'd love to see some way to implement a personal "ignore" list on isotropic, that would ignore someone's logged in account, not necessarily just their name that they're using since that's so easily changed. 

I hate to pester him for features though, for something freely given away, it's absolutely fantastic already.
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Superdad

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #101 on: June 23, 2011, 04:01:37 pm »
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I'm new to online dominion, and fairly new to dominion in general. I have a long history of extremely competitive Magic the Gathering, WOW TCG, WoW online, SC, SC2, and League of Legends.

While I cannot comment on the decline (since I'm new), I can absolutely say that the dominion community is hands-down, clear-cut, the best and most polite community of any of the above games.

In a north american championship for MTG, an opponent literally spat at me, because I beat him on turn 1 with a combo deck. Literally spat on me. I've had opponents shuffle my deck and purposefully drop one card from my deck on the floor, then call a judge to report my deck for being under 60 cards.

In WoW online, I had one of my kids fall down 2 flights of stairs during a raid fight. I even had the curtosy of typing "emergency afk" before I left the keyboard. I was kicked from the guild for afk'ing on a boss fight, and called various insulting names.

League of Legends takes the cake though. Play League of Legends for 1 week and you will be shocked at the behaviour of the people playing that game (LOL is at the opposite side of the spectrum of the community-civility chart). In league of legends, someone else will make a critical error, then absolutely FLAME you for not bailing them out (say, if they intiate a 1v5 fight), then literally quit a game at the 30 minute mark, and leave their entire team helpless and in a state where victory is impossible. I've never seen a worse community in my life, so to me, Dominion is an absolute haven of civility.

Someone will die ONCE and some moron on your team will literally berrate him for 45 minutes calling him a retard non-stop. It's truly unbelievable to see people treating eachother the way they do on that game.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 04:09:17 pm by Superdad »
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Personman

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #102 on: June 23, 2011, 04:22:40 pm »
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(LOL is at the opposite side of the spectrum of the community-civility chart)

But, but, Dreamhack was so awesome! Even HotShot was polite! :P
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Superdad

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #103 on: June 23, 2011, 04:31:24 pm »
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That's because he lost-out so early and didn't have anything else to do! haha
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ImperialStout

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #104 on: June 23, 2011, 04:53:28 pm »
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I would echo Superdad's comment; the Isotropic community is anomalously polite.  I strongly suspect (and have suspected for some time) that this is because the community grew organically from hardcore fans of a tabletop games, and tabletop gamers tend to socialize in a manner fundamentally different than those who communicate primarily or exclusively via the internet.  I.e. You kind of have to be polite or your gaming group stops inviting you over to their house.

Edit:  Of course this wouldn't explain why so many unpleasant types play Magic or Warhammer.  OK, maybe my theory has a few holes in it.
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Superdad

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #105 on: June 23, 2011, 05:04:47 pm »
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I'll be completely blunt and to the point. i believe this community is kinder, simply because the average age of the player-base is higher.

This isn't a get-off-my-lawn statement coming from an old man. I've known tons of very polite, well-behaved young teenagers... but I think the internet age (faceless, anonymous social interactions) are breeding inpolite behaviour in the younger generation.

I grew up in an age where if you were in a social atmosphere with someone and called them a retard, you got your bell-rung. These days, with anonymous internet, and non face to face social interactions, there's no physical pain as a consequence of being a jerk to someone.

I've noticed a VERY strong correlation between age and civility in every game I've played, and MTG, LOL and WoW are probably all the worst communities. It's my opinion (and I'm very possibly completely out to lunch) that age has a huge factor to this.
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ImperialStout

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #106 on: June 23, 2011, 05:12:22 pm »
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Very plausible!  In fact, the more I consider it, the more correct it seems.  The worst offenders (Counterstrike, DOTA-type games) all have very young average users.  Although I suspect that the age-civility linkage is less a generational thing (I know some baby boomers who are real pieces of work) and more a matter of teenagers being profoundly insecure, and consequently viewing online interactions in a more combative way.  Also young people tend to put a lot more weight in online interactions (particularly those who spend the majority of their time online) and older people tend to have more going on and so tend to care less -- although I realize that I am generalizing with abandon here and that there will be many exceptions.
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chwhite

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #107 on: June 23, 2011, 05:18:26 pm »
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I'll be completely blunt and to the point. i believe this community is kinder, simply because the average age of the player-base is higher.

This isn't a get-off-my-lawn statement coming from an old man. I've known tons of very polite, well-behaved young teenagers... but I think the internet age (faceless, anonymous social interactions) are breeding inpolite behaviour in the younger generation.

I grew up in an age where if you were in a social atmosphere with someone and called them a retard, you got your bell-rung. These days, with anonymous internet, and non face to face social interactions, there's no physical pain as a consequence of being a jerk to someone.

I've noticed a VERY strong correlation between age and civility in every game I've played, and MTG, LOL and WoW are probably all the worst communities. It's my opinion (and I'm very possibly completely out to lunch) that age has a huge factor to this.

Agree 100% that the higher age of the boardgame community (and, obviously by extension, Dominion players) is the main factor here.  And this is coming from someone who's probably quite a bit younger than you.

I do think, though, that its more an age than a generation thing- that most folks can be kinda rude and inconsiderate when they're young, but then just mellow and mature as they grow older.  I've seen increased politeness among my peers as they've gone from high school to college and post-college, and I know for a fact I've improved during that time as well (for reference, I'm in my mid-20s). 
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Teproc

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2011, 07:05:31 am »
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I'll be completely blunt and to the point. i believe this community is kinder, simply because the average age of the player-base is higher.

This isn't a get-off-my-lawn statement coming from an old man. I've known tons of very polite, well-behaved young teenagers... but I think the internet age (faceless, anonymous social interactions) are breeding inpolite behaviour in the younger generation.

I grew up in an age where if you were in a social atmosphere with someone and called them a retard, you got your bell-rung. These days, with anonymous internet, and non face to face social interactions, there's no physical pain as a consequence of being a jerk to someone.

I've noticed a VERY strong correlation between age and civility in every game I've played, and MTG, LOL and WoW are probably all the worst communities. It's my opinion (and I'm very possibly completely out to lunch) that age has a huge factor to this.

As a 18-year old, I completely agree. That being said, while there certainly is a generation effect, I also agree with chwhite that it's probably mainly a question of age rather than one of generation.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2011, 08:45:36 am »
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The worst offenders (Counterstrike, DOTA-type games) all have very young average users.

Absolute truth!

When I played Counter-Strike, I eventually joined a group called Crusty Old Fossil Rockers. The requirement was that you had to be at least 25 (kind of sad when that's a cut-off age for old people in online games). The main requirement was that you had to act your age. The COFR servers were very pleasant to play in. Not only were players civil, but the server also allowed friendly fire, which forced players to consider the consequences of their actions (for those who don't know, this means that you could accidentally kill your teammates with an errant shot). Those were some of my best games, and any time I went to a public server, I was appalled at some of the behavior there. It was also a reminder that the 25-year limit was fairly arbitrary.

I haven't spent as much time on Isotropic lately, but I do recall that it has been polite. I've heard the horror stories of asshat players, which I have had the fortune of not running into. Even the best of places will have their bad apples.

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Death to Sea Hags

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2011, 10:05:00 am »
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Absolute truth!

When I played Counter-Strike, I eventually joined a group called Crusty Old Fossil Rockers. The requirement was that you had to be at least 25 (kind of sad when that's a cut-off age for old people in online games). The main requirement was that you had to act your age. The COFR servers were very pleasant to play in. Not only were players civil, but the server also allowed friendly fire, which forced players to consider the consequences of their actions (for those who don't know, this means that you could accidentally kill your teammates with an errant shot). Those were some of my best games, and any time I went to a public server, I was appalled at some of the behavior there. It was also a reminder that the 25-year limit was fairly arbitrary.

Not as arbitrary as you think. 

At What Age Is the Human Brain Fully Developed?
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Eagle

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2011, 10:42:00 am »
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The difference in politeness between most (online) game communities and isotropic is indeed huge.

But what makes it impressive to me is that the in-general good behavior here happens without any moderation, or mechanism for banning a player in place at all (or even getting a bad reputation, since you can change your name easily and anonymously).  Which tells me that it's just this simply this group's nature to act like they're over 12, and not some fear of any consequences.
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timchen

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2011, 12:27:45 pm »
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It's interesting to see people have so many different opinions on this issue, even among the most experienced players!

I am most inclined to what guided said. I always put "hf+gl" and "gg" at the start and the end of any game, sometimes even after noticing that my opponent has already left.

I think manners are important. Typing a few letters before  and after the game will not cost anything, and shows both respect and good will. On the other hand, a wordless game feels worse when you are hit by the bad luck.
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Axe Knight

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2011, 12:56:52 pm »
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I'm sad to see us already going in the, "Well, in my day, it was like this..." direction...

Isotropic is going to bring all kinds of players from many different cultures with all different mores and outlooks who are collectively much different than you.  We can sit here and try to speculate on why this is, and write etiquette rules, etc., etc. but at the end of the day, you just can't let it bother you.  (I work in a job where I deal every day with the Federal Government and the military.  You want some serious, Grade A, first-class a-holes...?)  I just go on, play, and if someone wants to be a dick, they'll be a dick.  The only person who can get you bent out of shape is yourself.  For the most part, my opponents' words don't change my record, and whatever they say has no bearing on what I'm really there for: to get better at Dominion. 

Now, I'm NOT talking about things that affect the outcome.  I know in team games, there's opportunities for kingmaking, and situations like asking your opponent not to boot you because you're at work and may get a call, they agree...and then they do it anyway (as I've had happen).  I'm more talking about people getting offended when they don't get a "gg" or "gl" or "hf" or resorting to name calling/trash talking/stalling when the situation is hopeless.

"I've seen your games, you got lucky." 
"There's a reason I'm 20 levels higher than you." 
"Well, I guess I'll just wait for you to boot me so that way it looks like I got disconnected."

That's their problem.  They failed, and they're making a miserable attempt at compensating.  Hopefully, they can implement some form of ignore list, or come up with ways to discourage this type of behavior.  But in the meantime, why waste the energy over the behavior of others (that doesn't matter) that we can't control? 

For the record, when I enter a game, I simply say, "hi."  I leave it up to them where things go next. 

In a north american championship for MTG, an opponent literally spat at me, because I beat him on turn 1 with a combo deck. Literally spat on me. I've had opponents shuffle my deck and purposefully drop one card from my deck on the floor, then call a judge to report my deck for being under 60 cards.

In WoW online, I had one of my kids fall down 2 flights of stairs during a raid fight. I even had the curtosy of typing "emergency afk" before I left the keyboard. I was kicked from the guild for afk'ing on a boss fight, and called various insulting names.

Someone will die ONCE and some moron on your team will literally berrate him for 45 minutes calling him a retard non-stop. It's truly unbelievable to see people treating eachother the way they do on that game.

I'm very, very sorry to hear all this.  I think part of the reason that you don't see this stuff on isotropic is because there's really no opportunity for it, and I think Dominion tends to attract a certain type of person who's fine with a game that doesn't involve the possibility of backstabbing, trading, or having your team let you down.  There's some hardcore gamers I know who don't play Dominion because, well, you can't play like a dick and have it benefit you!
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fp

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #114 on: June 24, 2011, 01:57:34 pm »
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A lot of arguments and disagreements come when people speculate on others' motives.  We tend to ascribe negative motives more readily to others than to ourselves.

Here, if you're really upset at what your opponent is doing and you are convinced that he is deliberately trying to make you suffer, it seems like you have a nice solution to this problem: the resign button.  The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success, in which case his play is more than justified and you should not ascribe him such malevolent motives.

Sorry, have been away (literally no computer) for the past week, and this justifies a

"+1  :D"
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spetznaz

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #115 on: June 24, 2011, 05:18:45 pm »
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I think isotropic is a very polite community. I play other games as well, mostly wow tcg on magic workstation, and to call the opponents there rude is a very nice way of putting it. But unfortunately there's a few players that doesn't understand civility... just had this a moment ago.

Me: gg
Opponent: very luvky boy
Me: ?
Opponent: normally i win
Me: ??
Opponent: lucky
Me: why?
Opponent: enjoy this moment
Opponent has returned to the lobby.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #116 on: June 24, 2011, 07:37:21 pm »
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Opponent: normally i win

Heh, I don't think this person realized what this statement implies. If he "normally wins" and you arrived with the minority, then that must mean you're better than him. *grin*

Some people just don't realize that 100% of games generally won't be won--not if you face any experienced, competent opponent. And even a newbie can win. That still doesn't excuse this guy's behavior, though.

If someone accuses me of being lucky, I acknowledge it. Sure, I had luck on my side. I easily could have had the worst hands ever, but I didn't.
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Graystripe77

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #117 on: June 24, 2011, 07:43:04 pm »
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I think isotropic is a very polite community. I play other games as well, mostly wow tcg on magic workstation, and to call the opponents there rude is a very nice way of putting it. But unfortunately there's a few players that doesn't understand civility... just had this a moment ago.

Me: gg
Opponent: very luvky boy
Me: ?
Opponent: normally i win
Me: ??
Opponent: lucky
Me: why?
Opponent: enjoy this moment
Opponent has returned to the lobby.

I've had the EXACT conversation before, what was the guy's name?
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Teproc

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #118 on: June 24, 2011, 08:10:44 pm »
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I think isotropic is a very polite community. I play other games as well, mostly wow tcg on magic workstation, and to call the opponents there rude is a very nice way of putting it. But unfortunately there's a few players that doesn't understand civility... just had this a moment ago.

Me: gg
Opponent: very luvky boy
Me: ?
Opponent: normally i win
Me: ??
Opponent: lucky
Me: why?
Opponent: enjoy this moment
Opponent has returned to the lobby.

I've had the EXACT conversation before, what was the guy's name?

I've had that conversation too, possibly with the same guy, but I don't think we should call people being sore losers on this forum, because everybody can get frustrated. I generally wouldn't argue who got lucky or did not because it's pointless, but when you're playing a very frustrating game, sometimes you just do it, even if doesn't serve any purpose and is mostly annoying to the opponent. I don't think Isotropic really needs a black list.
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guided

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #119 on: June 24, 2011, 08:59:11 pm »
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Actually I would say somebody who says "enjoy this moment" to multiple people deserves to be called out by name :P

I have a sore-loser problem at times myself that I'm a little ashamed of--mostly complaining about really bad draws when they happen--but I don't go out of my way to belittle my opponent!
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spetznaz

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #120 on: June 25, 2011, 02:22:11 am »
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I've had the EXACT conversation before, what was the guy's name?

I don't like to give out names, that's not civil. And if there would be a list of "rude" players, they can just change names. I was just very surprised with the comment. If someone turns a game around and squeezes out a win when I have the better deck, it's almost never just luck. I give them a gg and a well played with a smiley and try to ask for a rematch
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Amaranth

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #121 on: June 25, 2011, 07:40:31 am »
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It's one thing to complain about your own bad draws (and I've definitely experienced some bad draws), but saying the other player got lucky is rude because it's putting down their skill. Unless it's like that time I got the 5/2 split and was able to open with Hamlet + Torturer. That was lucky.
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theory

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #122 on: June 25, 2011, 12:35:23 pm »
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People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

It's very obvious when you draw two clashing terminals, but it's not as obvious when it happens to your opponent, since you only see him play one of them.
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def

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #123 on: June 25, 2011, 01:16:06 pm »
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People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

Yeah. The human brain tends to put one bad experience over nine good or normal experiences, e.g. price changes - when they drop, it's good, we are happy for a moment and that's it. If they rise, most people get more angry than they were happy in the first case. So people get the impression, that everything is getting more expensive, which is strictly not true.

This is even more true for something that happens with a very small probability. I remember me getting upset this one time where my opponent managed to have a curse in his hand three times in a row when I was playing a mountebank, him having 30 cards and 2 curses in his deck. But I don't remember the twenty times where my mountebanks were successful.
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krawhitham

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #124 on: June 26, 2011, 06:08:13 am »
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People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

It's very obvious when you draw two clashing terminals, but it's not as obvious when it happens to your opponent, since you only see him play one of them.

I actually go out of my way to acknowledge when I have been lucky.

Luck is a factor in Dominion but in the long run better players win.
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