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Author Topic: Decline of civility on isotropic?  (Read 209954 times)

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ftl

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #350 on: November 08, 2011, 12:59:28 am »
0

Now *that's* what 'decline of civility' is like. :(

That seems even more annoying than Paralyzed to me, who at least played the game. Do people get banned off isotropic?

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biopower

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #351 on: November 08, 2011, 01:06:56 am »
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Now *that's* what 'decline of civility' is like. :(

That seems even more annoying than Paralyzed to me, who at least played the game. Do people get banned off isotropic?

The problem with bans on the internet: it affects either
A)the account, in which case a new one may simply be made, or
B)the IP address, in which case a new one may easily be acquired.
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popsofctown

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #352 on: November 08, 2011, 01:24:34 am »
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You force a reset on his rank, at least.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #353 on: November 08, 2011, 01:30:30 am »
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True. Given that he's level 31, he's probably not going to be happy with starting from 0 again. Could even be enough to scare him away, who knows.
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popsofctown

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #354 on: November 08, 2011, 01:37:14 am »
+1

Send some league of legends and world of warcraft ads to his email account for good measure.
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ftl

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #355 on: November 08, 2011, 01:48:53 am »
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No, please don't do that. He's being a jerk, but that's no reason to violate his privacy and share his email address with marketers.

I actually was curious whether isotropic has anything in particular in place to deal with guys like this. I guess I'll just remember not to accept any games with him.
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tlloyd

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #356 on: November 08, 2011, 02:14:46 am »
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tlloyd very clearly indicated in his posts that he thinks it is acceptable to refuse someone's request for resignation.

Please pay attention.  We have to fully understand the delusions to cure them.

I also very clearly indicated when it might be legitimate to do "refuse," though I did not use that term, and when it would be just as rude as resigning unilaterally. Either you guys aren't bothering to read my whole posts, or you are deliberately ignoring aspects that don't make me look like a total raving lunatic. Here's a recap:

If A resigns unilaterally, B may legitimately feel slighted. Maybe not. Who knows. The point of courtesy is to take into consideration what others may feel and act as if those feelings matter.

If A offers to resign (rather than doing so unilaterally), and B accepts, the outcome is no different but the manner in which it was conducted is very different. [see Dondon151's response to Barsooma]. You may not feel that way, but if you can't understand that someone else might feel that way, there's probably no point in your continuing to participate in a discussion of courtesy.

If A offers to resign, B may ask that A allow the game to continue briefly. Why would he do such a terrible thing? Maybe he knows that he can end the game on his turn. Maybe he can't, but wants to actually enjoy playing with the deck that he has successfully built. Who knows. My point is that (1) wanting to continue is not illegitimate in all circumstances, and (2) when the game will only continue for a minute or two, the losing player has not been unfairly burdened.

Of course, in many circumstances refusing a request to resign would discourteous (and futile). There's no hard and fast rule for this--all I am suggesting is that the players talk about it before ending the game on their own terms (I'm not suggesting you have to ask permission to buy the last province).

If your stance is "I will resign whenever I please without regard to whether my opponent would prefer the game to continue for some reasonable amount of time, AND I refuse even to politely ask to withdraw before doing so," you are well within your rights. But it's hard to see how that can be courteous, given how little effort it takes to (1) ask to resign and (2) possibly play for another minute.

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biopower

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #357 on: November 08, 2011, 03:10:29 am »
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Either you guys aren't bothering to read my whole posts, or [...] me look like a total raving lunatic.

Joking aside, the problem is that your advocacy is simply not competitive with unilateral resignation. The disadvantage to unilateral resignation (the opponent feels slighted) is simply too unlikely to be considered. You could advocate consulting your best friend before every move on the basis that s/he might feel slighted if left out, but the probability that the friend feels slighted is too miniscule to consider. In the same way, it's improbable that someone will feel slighted after an unilateral resignation simply because this specific instance of resignation is not unique; people resign unilaterally all the time for reasons other than losing.
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popsofctown

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #358 on: November 08, 2011, 03:13:13 am »
+2

I feel like it is dishonest for me to ask for permission to resign if I'm going to do it anyway if you say no.
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Kirian

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #359 on: November 08, 2011, 03:21:31 am »
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I will say that I find resigning without comment at all a bit rude/uncivil.  At least type gg as you resign; it shows you're not ragequitting.  Or, in other words:  Don't be Idra.

But unilateral resignation itself should never be considered uncivil.  We all should feel free to do so.
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dondon151

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #360 on: November 08, 2011, 03:32:06 am »
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I feel like it is dishonest for me to ask for permission to resign if I'm going to do it anyway if you say no.

The response that you receive isn't the important part. When you meet someone and ask them "what's up," do you actually want to know exactly what's up? It's the gesture that matters.

Reminds me a little bit of those Budweiser commercials where a bunch of guys say "how ya' doin'" to each other and a newcomer actually responds to their question seriously and comes off as a tool as a result.
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popsofctown

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #361 on: November 08, 2011, 04:38:53 am »
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I mean what's up whenever i ask someone what's up..
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octopus

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #362 on: November 08, 2011, 05:16:07 am »
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I only get annoyed if someone quits by hitting exit and then timing out so I have to force resign them.  This is my understanding of a ragequit.  If they actually take the time to wait for the beginning of their turn to hit the resign button, I already consider that a courtesy, regardless of whether or not they say gg.  The problem seems worse in 3p/4p games. 

Afterthought: In some cases it might be due to players not knowing how to resign.  A permanently visible resign button might help that.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 06:32:04 am by octopus »
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Kuildeous

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #363 on: November 08, 2011, 09:44:16 am »
+2

I feel like it is dishonest for me to ask for permission to resign if I'm going to do it anyway if you say no.

I can understand tlloyd's point.

I would not be interested in asking if I may resign, because what would I do if the winner says "no"? I'd either have to endure his game, whether I want to or not, or I'd have to be a dick and resign anyway.

Instead, I would make an open-ended comment. I'd say, "You've got this one. I'll save us both the trouble and resign." But, I wouldn't resign right away. Give the opponent sufficient time to read that and respond. If he doesn't come back with, "Would you mind if I finish up these last two turns?" then I'd resign.

That at least puts the onus on the winner. He can ask the loser for permission to finish up the game. The loser can either accommodate the winner and let him play out his awesome hand, or the loser can politely decline and resign anyway.
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chwhite

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #364 on: November 08, 2011, 09:52:20 am »
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The problem seems worse in 3p/4p games. 

Ah, multiplayer!  I don't so much have a problem with people resigning in 2p (though, as mentioned above, I personally find it unnatural and don't really ever do it myself), but resigning in 3p/4p is legitimately discourteous, pretty much always- because the game doesn't end, but multiple people have to keep playing, with a stack of 12 Provinces to empty and possibly running a deck specifically tailored to multiplayer games.  I think people who are advocating that resignation is always okay need to step back and think about the 3p/4p case, and also consider that us non-resigning people may be coming from a background of mostly multiplayer games, rather than competitive chess or Magic.

FWIW if it's 2p and one person wants to resign I think the courteous thing to do is ask permission or at least inform the other player, but I do agree that if the player who's leading says "no I wanna keep playing" then yeah that's pretty much always a dick move. 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 09:57:54 am by chwhite »
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Reyk

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #365 on: November 08, 2011, 10:18:49 am »
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The problem seems worse in 3p/4p games. 
I think people who are advocating that resignation is always okay need to step back and think about the 3p/4p case

It is always ok in 2p games (the vast majority of games on iso and that's what people are advocating). And it is never ok in 3p/4p (except force majeure etc.) -> one of my reasons to play 2p games with only few exceptions. Imho pretty straight forward.
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guided

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #366 on: November 08, 2011, 10:52:33 am »
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I firmly disagree that it would ever be courteous to refuse somebody's resignation. Again: It's not my prerogative to expect you to play out a losing game. My feeling slighted out of a turn or three of my rad engine is not inherently more virtuous than your boredom or dejection about playing out a losing string; it would simply be presumptuous for me to assign my feelings more virtue than yours.
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Copernicus

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #367 on: November 08, 2011, 11:03:38 am »
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I only get annoyed if someone quits by hitting exit and then timing out so I have to force resign them.  This is my understanding of a ragequit.  If they actually take the time to wait for the beginning of their turn to hit the resign button, I already consider that a courtesy, regardless of whether or not they say gg.  The problem seems worse in 3p/4p games. 

Afterthought: In some cases it might be due to players not knowing how to resign.  A permanently visible resign button might help that.

I thought exit auto-resigned the player as soon as it was an option for them to do so.  I've also had people resign on me as soon as the game gave them a choice (in the middle of my long action string that ended with an attack), which I assumed was from previously hitting exit.


And yes, resigning in 3/4 player games is a problem due to how many cards are available and the power level of various cards that change.
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chwhite

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #368 on: November 08, 2011, 11:31:27 am »
0

I firmly disagree that it would ever be courteous to refuse somebody's resignation. Again: It's not my prerogative to expect you to play out a losing game. My feeling slighted out of a turn or three of my rad engine is not inherently more virtuous than your boredom or dejection about playing out a losing string; it would simply be presumptuous for me to assign my feelings more virtue than yours.

If it's a 2p game, I more or less agree with you.  In multiplayer, no way.  If you resign in mulitplayer, you're not just making your opponent "slighted out of a turn or three of my rad engine", you're upsetting the game balance for more than one other players, who presumably have to keep playing in an artifical environment (2p 12 Provinces!) that they didn't sign up for (because they agreed to play a specifically 3 or 4 player game).  In that case, you're assigning your feelings more virtue than the feelings of at least two other people.

Slightly OT: I wish multiplayer games were more frequent on Iso, btw.  It's a different experience and I do feel that playing exclusively 2p means you're missing a big part of Dominion.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 12:27:04 pm by chwhite »
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Karrow

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #369 on: November 08, 2011, 11:37:25 am »
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There's not much that is more more game-changing than an early drop in 3-player.  I've been stuck in a few curse games that had the 3rd player drop early.  20 curses and 12 provinces can be painful.

But i just shrug it off.  His mom probably just told him it's bedtime and closed his laptop on him.  It's just another kingdom variant.  The winner will be the one who best adapts to the board and plays the best strategy, just like every other kingdom.

I think the big thing to remember in all of this is that it's just a game, have fun.

Rage-quitters can be fun too.  I remember in Magic the Gathering when there was finally enough different counterspell forms to make a 100% counterspell deck (+mana of course).  I built it, and I was undefeated with it.  Keep in mind the deck had no way to win.  Not one single card in it was for the purpose of winning.  I repeatedly refused advice to at least put a single creature or graveyard recycling card in it.  It wan't needed.  It was simply a metagaming tool against the rage-quitters.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #370 on: November 08, 2011, 11:41:39 am »
0

For the record, I do decline invites sometimes. Most of the time, its because its a Colony game and I'm just not at that skill level to handle it, (and in general I dislike Colony games, I feel they warp the game's elegance and simplicity). I'd be more communicative about the decline, but that's not the easiest thing to communicate on isotropic. If the same opponent comes back with an invite without Colony I'll gladly accept.

I feel I should have some control over what games I indulge in. I don't want to be rude, but Prosperity is not a set I care to learn right now, and even when I do, I can tell you it will easily remain my most disliked set.
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Buggz

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #371 on: November 08, 2011, 11:51:50 am »
+1

its because its a Colony game and I'm just not at that skill level to handle it
You know, there's one excellent way to fix that..  :P
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #372 on: November 08, 2011, 11:52:25 am »
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I think I'd like to play you at some point, ChaosRed. Our playstyles seem to be different enough to make it a really fascinating clash of approaches.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #373 on: November 08, 2011, 12:09:16 pm »
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You know, there's one excellent way to fix that..  :P

Yeah, I could learn to tolerate pain better by pouring iodine into a paper cut too. :)

I don't like the design of Prosperity. In MLB Showdown we banned the cards generated in 2002 in our local league. In GOSU we have a house rule about how many turns you can take when your opponent passes. In Pathfinder, we simplified some of the combat rules for faster, leaner combat and we generally skew our sessions to lower levels. In MMOs, I tend to exclusively hang out on RP servers and ignore power-gaming completely. I guess I'm used to (and feel entitled to) cater my gaming experience to taste.

I would be more civil about the refusal, if there was a simpler mechanism to do that. But I feel I have some right to ensure the game I'm about to play is enjoyable and Colony games, are not to my taste. Actually, when I originally started I biased my selection to base set (its my favorite set by far, because I find it simple and elegant). I did really well when I did this. But then I felt this was a tad unfair, so I changed this.

I do wind up playing Colony games sometimes, when I am offered a veto game. When I get a veto game, I always veto "random", so that I am not purposely vetoing nasty attacks. So that's when I get "stuck" with a Colony game.

I hope that doesn't come across as arrogant, it's just a preference thing.

I think I'd like to play you at some point, ChaosRed. Our playstyles seem to be different enough to make it a really fascinating clash of approaches.

Of course, I'd love that! You'd likely kick my ass though. I have two types of wins:

1. I play a player clearly less skilled than me, usually several levels lower and clearly from the outset not quite ready to truly compete on isotropic, even with the likes of me.

2. The board is easy to read and in this case, if I win, I win narrowly, or I win because I got the slightly luckier draw at the end to grab the win. I win a lot by just 1 or 2 points in games like this.

I tend to lose when the board has a subtle or complex engine I don't see, or I fuck up (which happens a lot). My play style is usually pretty simple. I rarely build a complex engine, I usually reach for obvious and well-known tactics (I recently won with double JOAT+BM), and I tend to lean towards treasure heavily (in fact I tend to lose most when I fail to do that). I think this is why I often get accused of being "lucky" by higher-ranked players, because it's usually pretty obvious what I am up to and its rarely elegant or subtle...but if I'm lucky it is sometimes effective.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 01:04:31 pm by ChaosRed »
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ackack

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #374 on: November 08, 2011, 12:26:02 pm »
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It is always ok in 2p games (the vast majority of games on iso and that's what people are advocating). And it is never ok in 3p/4p (except force majeure etc.) -> one of my reasons to play 2p games with only few exceptions. Imho pretty straight forward.

Seems about right.

As an aside, Dominion feels a lot like Scrabble to me. You can play both multiplayer, but the multiplayer experience seems a lot more random and less competitive. I'd give multi more of a shot if there were separate ratings for it (or if I were playing live) but since I'm primarily interested in the 2p game I haven't felt the need to really experiment with it.
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