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Author Topic: Decline of civility on isotropic?  (Read 249699 times)

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tlloyd

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #325 on: November 07, 2011, 03:26:26 am »
+2

I've noticed a lot more early resigning lately. And while I generally agree that people have the right to resign whenever they feel like it, I think the question of courtesy is not so easily answered--especially when it comes to Isotropic. Here are some of the principles that I subscribe to:

1. It is not rude to want to keep playing even after your victory is fairly well-assured.
There's more to playing the game of dominion than reaching the earliest point at which one player has a decisive advantage. The game is not over just because I got more Grand Markets than you. I play not just to win or lose, but to play. That means that if I happen to win the Grand Market race (whether out of luck or skill or the combination), I actually enjoy getting to use the strong deck I've built. That's part of the game! Just because turns 1-10 have left me in a much better position to win doesn't make it rude if I want to play turns 10-16 anyway. This is especially true if the turns are relatively short, so that playing to the end doesn't require a huge sacrifice of anyone's time.

A corollary principle is that it is not necessarily rude to continue racing for big VP cards when you could win by emptying piles. In the group I play with IRL, three-piling is seen as spoiling the game just so you can win. Obviously that's not true generally, and I don't think ending on piles is rude, but I also have no problem with a person who enjoys playing the "let's see who can get the most Provinces" game instead of the "let's see who can force the game to end while they have a narrow lead" game.

A caveat: This principle is only valid if the game is moving to a conclusion at some appreciable pace. If my stronger deck is some nightmare Goons + Watchtower engine where I can continue to rack up points for a long time without actually moving the game towards a resolution (not buying Provinces, let alone three-piling), then dragging the game out starts to feel like rubbing the other guy's nose in your victory--which is obviously bad form. Of course you might feel like my distinction is arbitrary (why can't we play the "let's see how many points I can get" game?), but that's the way I feel.

2. Resigning because you are at a disadvantage can be rude.
When my opponent resigns in this circumstance, it really comes across as their throwing a tantrum because they didn't get to win. Like they're trying to deny me the satisfaction of playing the stronger deck that I was fortunate enough to build. The other day I found myself in a position of having won the race to GMs and the race for Highways. I was set up for a couple massive turns, but the game itself would have taken only a minute or so longer to finish. My opponent's resigning had less to do with how important that minute was to him, and more to do with not wanting me to have the satisfaction of what could have been a very fun couple of turns to play. That's just rude.

Caveat: If you are in the likely-to-lose position, the polite thing to do would be to congratulate your opponent on his play and ask for permission to resign. If it's a long painful curse-filled game, the likely winner is likely to be all-too-happy to accept. If on the other hand the game is nearly over, or if your opponent is on the verge of a mega-turn, he may politely ask that the game continue for another turn or two. It would not be polite, of course, to insist that the opponent continue if the game was either long and painful or (returning to the Goons example) not remotely approaching an end-point.

Corollary to the Caveat: While asking to resign is always preferable to simply resigning, sometimes asking to resign is also preferable to playing on. I have played games to their conclusions that began with my missing out on Familiar the first three times that the potion came through my deck. Those games were painful, and I lost badly. But for as bad a time as I was having, my opponent was having fun. It sucks to get ten curses handed to you, but it sure can be fun to dish out that many. But once I knew I couldn't win, I asked if he wanted to play on. He did, so we did. That's the deal you make when you offer/accept a game of dominion. But if he had no interest in playing out a very slow game with a certain outcome, it was the least I could do to offer my resignation. Was his insistence rude? Maybe. But sometimes courtesy requires disregarding others' discourtesies.

Anyway, that's my take on the resigning issue. It boils down to two points: Dominion is about playing your deck, not just building one. And ask for permission before you resign, because your own immediate fun or frustration is not all that matters.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #326 on: November 07, 2011, 04:13:34 am »
0

1. It is not rude to want to keep playing even after your victory is fairly well-assured.
Agree, the opponent can always resign if he wants.
2. Resigning because you are at a disadvantage can be rude.
This conflicts with your first point: It's not rude to drag the game on, but it is rude to put an end to the dragging?
I didn't expect this attitude from a lvl 35. In all competitive games I've played it's the normal thing to do to resign if you're going to lose.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #327 on: November 07, 2011, 04:18:05 am »
+5

I like to play a certain way, and anyone who doesn't accommodate the way I think Dominion should be played is a sore loser.  Everyone who plays with me makes an unspoken agreement to watch me build and play engines even when there is no chance for them to win.  Furthermore, it would be unacceptable for them to complain while I run up the score instead of making a clean kill.
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chwhite

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #328 on: November 07, 2011, 10:21:04 am »
+1

1. It is not rude to want to keep playing even after your victory is fairly well-assured.
Agree, the opponent can always resign if he wants.
2. Resigning because you are at a disadvantage can be rude.
This conflicts with your first point: It's not rude to drag the game on, but it is rude to put an end to the dragging?
I didn't expect this attitude from a lvl 35. In all competitive games I've played it's the normal thing to do to resign if you're going to lose.


I much prefer to play until the end, even in cases where I know I'm going to lose; for me I simply get far more enjoyment out of seeing things through.  I don't begrudge when other people resign, and I get why people do it in games like chess, but that's not my background and each match of Dominion is over so quickly, so why not finish?

I do think that three-piling when you know you're ahead is the courteous thing to do; if I know I can end the game this turn by running out piles then I'll try to do so.  OTOH I don't think it's an unpardonable offense if I (or my opponent) misses that; for instance, in games without point counters the person who's leading may not be secure enough in their knowledge of that to end the game prematurely, and I'm sure most of us have had turns where we're going on autopilot and just flat-out miss the chance to end it.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 12:21:27 pm by chwhite »
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ackack

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #329 on: November 07, 2011, 10:50:54 am »
0

Yeah, I really wonder how much of it is people's previous chess background. Having played a lot of internet chess back in the day, resigning in hopeless spots seems super natural to me.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #330 on: November 07, 2011, 11:17:33 am »
0

If not chess, than Magic the Gathering where it's also commonly accepted (and desired) to concede when you're going to lose.
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tlloyd

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #331 on: November 07, 2011, 12:28:02 pm »
0

1. It is not rude to want to keep playing even after your victory is fairly well-assured.
Agree, the opponent can always resign if he wants.
2. Resigning because you are at a disadvantage can be rude.
This conflicts with your first point: It's not rude to drag the game on, but it is rude to put an end to the dragging?

I don't know what else to say other than that there is clearly not a conflict between saying "it's not rude to play on" and "it can be rude to cut the game short."

Quote
I didn't expect this attitude from a lvl 35. In all competitive games I've played it's the normal thing to do to resign if you're going to lose.

This is the view I was trying to address by saying that there is more to the game than reaching the point where the ending seems certain. There is also, you know, playing the game. I don't expect everyone to feel the same way--that's why I posted in the first place. Given that some people want to play to the end just for the fun, and others want the game to end as soon as the outcome is sure, the two principles I explained help us play with each other civilly. If you are no longer interested in the rest of the game, you have the right to unilaterally end it--but that doesn't mean that doing so would be courteous.
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tlloyd

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #332 on: November 07, 2011, 12:40:14 pm »
0

I like to play a certain way, and anyone who doesn't accommodate the way I think Dominion should be played is a sore loser.  Everyone who plays with me makes an unspoken agreement to watch me build and play engines even when there is no chance for them to win.  Furthermore, it would be unacceptable for them to complain while I run up the score instead of making a clean kill.

If you have a real disagreement with what I said, express it like a grown-up. Your tone here confirms my suspicion that most early resignations are really in the form of pouting.

What I actually said was that a player who feels sure he is going to lose and no longer wants to play should politely ask to resign rather than doing so unilaterally. That's courteous, because the other player may want the game to continue for valid reasons. Having made the request, I would imagine in most cases the winning player would happily accept and the game would end just as the losing player wanted. The difference is the manner in which it happened, which is of course what courtesy is all about.

If the game is very nearly over, or if the winning player wants to enjoy his mega-turn that he's been building up to the whole game, the winning player may ask for the game to continue for a short while. That is not rude. I don't see that continuing for another minute or so is imposing a great inconvenience on the losing player, who after all agreed to play a game of dominion! However, it would be rude for the winning player to insist that the game continue if the ending is nowhere in sight.

I think in general if you can win the game on your turn, you should--rather than dragging the game on. But I am happy to forgive someone who fails to see the three-pile ending because his paradigm is "buy the most provinces."
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Eagle

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #333 on: November 07, 2011, 12:46:23 pm »
+1


should politely ask to resign rather than doing so unilaterally.

Just so you all know, if I ever start playing online again, you never need to ask my permission to instantly force me to win the game.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #334 on: November 07, 2011, 01:00:13 pm »
0

There's a machismo to gaming culture. I get that and its been part of gaming since I've been involved in it (and that goes back a few decades now).

It's not why I game though, while I love a little friendly-smack talk, it's pretty meaningless to me, if it isn't laid down with a lot of mutual respect and some genuine admiration for your opponent. At that point, it becomes hilarious, because there's a real friendship underneath that makes the barbs more playful and part of the "meta-game" which I've always enjoyed.

But that's just "how I roll", I've always seen gaming as a social exercise. The game itself is secondary (and really I can substitute any number of them just as happily). To others, what I just typed seems like an affront to what they see as valuable and worthwhile to gaming. To them, they have something to prove, something to vital to prove and their play is an extension of that. They resent players who don't "commit" to the game like they do. They value acumen and a professional quality when gaming. I get that, I even admire it to a degree, but I don't like to game that way. I like to WORK that way, but when I play, I like to bust out the beer and pretzels.

I have resigned from games. I have done so, when I've fucked up badly. When I do that, I fear I'm giving my opponent a lousy game. I simply ask if I may resign, and if they agree, we move on. But I've also seen people want to resign around turn 10, simply because I got a couple of lucky draws, or because they got a few bad ones. Some isotropic users want to rack up as many wins, in as short a time as possible. This "efficiency" is a large part of their focus.

I think that's all well-and-good, but its not why I game. I game for a few laughs and some intrigue and to enjoy a well-designed, well-balanced game. I don't think my attitude is superior (far from it, in many ways, my approach makes the game secondary, so you could argue its an inferior attitude), but I also think we all need to recognize people game for different reasons, with different personality-types.

I just tend to remember the laughs and friendships more than the actual results of the game, over the long haul.
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popsofctown

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #335 on: November 07, 2011, 02:10:53 pm »
+2


should politely ask to resign rather than doing so unilaterally.

Just so you all know, if I ever start playing online again, you never need to ask my permission to instantly force me to win the game.

I loll'ed

tlloyd, I think you're looking at things wrong.  It's very often possible that the odds of you winning the game comes to zero or scientific insignificance.  If you want me to stay at the table and play my cards, how do you want me to do so?  Do you want me to play them in a way that mimics how you play in games that could go either way, or do you want me to buy curses every turn?  If there's no way I can win, it's no longer possible to play the game.  I can consider buying a militia to slow you down but lose to duchies or to buy a duchy and lose to your provinces, but either way I lose and once I know that I can't apply a value judgment and select choices based on maximizing my odds of winning, which is what playing a game is.  If you want to play your big crazy engine, play it after I leave the table.  Petition isotropic to allow turns and plays to continue after the game ends.  There's no longer any need for a human opponent for you to get any value out of the rest of the game, so I no longer feel a need to be there.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #336 on: November 07, 2011, 02:51:24 pm »
0

a few of my thoughts on the subjects being discussed. as a note, i don't have any background with chess or magic. my competitive background is based largely in baseball, track, and having brothers.

- outside of when real life situations dictated, i don't think i have ever resigned more than 3 or 4 games. i will scrap and fight to the very end.  once i am mathematically out of it though i won't drag things out, i will usually just help end the game. playing out games, even a bad loss, doesn't usually bother me. (though to be fair i didn't even know how to resign until i had played a few hundred games) i have found i can learn useful things by changing my strategies when behind and observing what my opponent did.

- that being said, i don't care at all if you resign or whether you acknowledge me at all in doing so. we have all had stinkers of games, and though we play against strangers we do have our pride. i can see the rationale of just wanting to duck out if you are getting stomped or if you are frustrated by some rough luck.

- you built a cool engine and want to see it play out?  note the cards of that board and then go play solitaire mode. wanting your opponent to stick around so that you can have a grand climax to certain victory is little more than vanity.  you know how it is going to play out; you had some idea of what the result would be when you designed the engine after all.

- i think that if you can win the game on piles you should. if you have a decisive lead, respect your opponent's pride and time and move to end the game quickly. the better players out there should have a good eye for what the score is and how close the game is to ending anyway.

- i feel silly for having to bring this up, but treat others like you want to be treated.  you will win more people to your style of respect/disrespect by regularly displaying it in your gameplay than you will by discussing it here. if you want to see change, lead the way every time. when resigning, compliment your opponent on their superior strategy and don't ever use the word luck. thank people for playing when you win. i doubt people started saying "gg" because they read it on a forum.  they probably saw a large number of other players use it and determined it was an appropriate and courteous response.
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Kirian

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #337 on: November 07, 2011, 04:59:41 pm »
+1

I like to play a certain way, and anyone who doesn't accommodate the way I think Dominion should be played is a sore loser.  Everyone who plays with me makes an unspoken agreement to watch me build and play engines even when there is no chance for them to win.  Furthermore, it would be unacceptable for them to complain while I run up the score instead of making a clean kill.

Man, if this board were tolerant of image macros, I'd totally throw up a some sort of troll face right here.  Well-played, sir. :)
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Eagle

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #338 on: November 07, 2011, 05:44:24 pm »
0

I like to play a certain way, and anyone who doesn't accommodate the way I think Dominion should be played is a sore loser.  Everyone who plays with me makes an unspoken agreement to watch me build and play engines even when there is no chance for them to win.  Furthermore, it would be unacceptable for them to complain while I run up the score instead of making a clean kill.

You're almost right... except it's anyone who doesn't accommodate *me*!!
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popsofctown

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #339 on: November 07, 2011, 07:00:16 pm »
0

No brah, it's my rules.  No resigning until the end, except for if you have lots of curses, or one person got drowned by pirate ships, or if I'm militiaing you every turn.  (but not if I'm goonsing you every turn, then you need to ask permission to leave and I might say, "No, I want you to sit and watch me score 25 points in one turn").

If you were playing engine and I totally busted it apart with an Ambassador engine, you can leave, but first you have to tell me how good at dominion I am and how clever I was to take your nobles deck apart with coppers.

But if I'm upset because you Saboteured one of my Provinces, it's totally fine for me to leave without asking, that's just a given.

EDIT: It's hard to parody when the source material is already so exaggerated..
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tlloyd

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #340 on: November 07, 2011, 08:20:04 pm »
0

You guys lose all credibility on the topic of civility when you can't even discuss the topic civilly. Being sarcastic doesn't make your opinion any more important or correct. You can go on resigning whenever it pleases you, without regard to what your opponent thinks, but if you don't care about what your opponent thinks, then why are you wasting everyone's time trolling a discussion on civility?
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rrenaud

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #341 on: November 07, 2011, 08:30:14 pm »
+4

Keep in mind that this is a textual discussion on the internet.  The tone in jokes is often missed, lots of information is lost when messages are textualized.  It's the reason emoticons exist.  Comments made in a not totally serious manner are often misinterpreted to be completely serious.

For the most part ( :) ), you are all reasonable people.  Act in good faith.
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popsofctown

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #342 on: November 07, 2011, 08:45:21 pm »
0

tlloyd, i think you're mostly a pretty reasonable guy.  I assure you that if you had the background i have, you would be unable to take tlloyd seriously.  It's just, not possible.
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guided

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #343 on: November 07, 2011, 09:14:40 pm »
0

There is no room in my worldview for the idea that prompt (unilateral) resignation on isotropic is ever less than OK. It's simply not my prerogative to force anyone to spend their time losing the game on my terms, no matter how disappointed I might be if I'm not allowed to complete my plans for some neat engine I'm building.
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barsooma

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #344 on: November 07, 2011, 09:29:13 pm »
0

This is what this discussion makes me think of:
http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2007/2/18/how-to-exhibit-good-form.html

But seriously tlloyd, you really think that a losing player needs to ask "May I please resign?"
In what circumstances would it possibly be justified / civil for someone to say "No, I refuse to accept your resignation."?
And if the question can only have one answer, why bother asking it?

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dondon151

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #345 on: November 07, 2011, 09:30:41 pm »
0

Well, I think that requesting a resignation doesn't communicate the air of "ragequit" that a sudden resignation does, and both parties will walk off a little happier. Just my two cents.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #346 on: November 07, 2011, 09:32:49 pm »
0

I am 5-8-1 against you tlloyd and I would welcome a game with you anytime, but please don't be offended if I resign.  Take it instead as a <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110626-015004-1b5b44c6.html>sign of respect.</a>
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 09:39:33 pm by Mean Mr Mustard »
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

popsofctown

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #347 on: November 07, 2011, 09:37:38 pm »
0

tlloyd very clearly indicated in his posts that he thinks it is acceptable to refuse someone's request for resignation.

Please pay attention.  We have to fully understand the delusions to cure them.
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Aeglos

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #348 on: November 08, 2011, 12:31:09 am »
0

Just played someone who was slow-playing so blatantly, and by his own admission, that I felt like I had to note it somewhere, and I couldn't find a "report abuse" button.  So I created an account here.  I reproduce for you, below, the entirety of what he said to me during our game.

0:11 indomitable: since you'll win it next turn by caravan and bazaar, i'll make sure to drag this turn out niiiiiiiice and long
0:13 indomitable: alright i'm heading off. enjoy the wait to make me resign
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #349 on: November 08, 2011, 12:39:45 am »
0

This guy seems like a real class act. You're the third person who's reported having problems with him.
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