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Author Topic: Decline of civility on isotropic?  (Read 249769 times)

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Death to Sea Hags

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2011, 02:27:44 pm »
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Keep in mind, not everyone counts points, so they may not be aware that they could win.  I like to think that's the case when someone does that to me, rather than "running up" the score; there's so many games on isotropic, it probably doesn't do much if someone crushes me by 50 or squeaks by on a tiebreaker.  Up until I started playing isotropic, I was still stuck in "Must have as many Provinces as possible" mode.  Me personally, I'm scared to death of losing if I don't win as soon as I possibly can. 

Agreed.  But in the case I gave, I hit "!status" for the point counter, so we both knew exactly how many points there were.  And when your opponent buys three estates, down 30+pts, well, let's just say there's no comeback brewing.  This isn't a case of uncertainty, deck variance, etc.  This is, "you can end the game <i>this instant</i> and win."


Do you guys know about the resign button? At the beginning of your turn you can click 'end turn' and it will appear. Try it out some time!

Yup.   I'll resign when it's a lost cause, but the game had been reasonable up to that point, so I figured I'd just finish it out. Why bother resigning to avoid one turn? I save "resign" for times when I can see its going to be a long, slow, unpleasant game - destined for many more turns of pain.


If you feel somebody is dragging out the game, make a polite comment about it to point out that they could win rather than continuing (maybe they didn't realize a 3-pile ending was available?), or resign on your turn. If you deliberately time out instead of resigning, you are a hundred times worse of a human being than somebody who fails to end the game at the first opportunity. Inexcusable, period.

That's a pretty strong statement.  Even after polite comments, score displays, and attempts to end a game quickly short of resigning, the winner is <i>still</i> being a time-waster AND a jerk - but time-wasting by the loser, <i>in response</i> is "Inexcusable"? You're entitled to your opinion, but I doubt you'll find many to agree with it.


The point remains, if at any time you can end the game with a win you should immediately do so.

100%.
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guided

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2011, 02:55:28 pm »
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That's a pretty strong statement.  Even after polite comments, score displays, and attempts to end a game quickly short of resigning, the winner is still being a time-waster AND a jerk - but time-wasting by the loser, in response is "Inexcusable"? You're entitled to your opinion, but I doubt you'll find many to agree with it.

Your opponent was playing the game, even if you felt they were unnecessarily extending it. In contrast, you declined to play, declined the option of resigning immediately on your turn, and wasted their time on purpose purely for the sake of wasting their time. Yes, your behavior was petty and inexcusable, and it's shameful that you're still defending it.
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Kirian

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2011, 05:58:05 pm »
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I've gotta throw my hat in with guided, theory and MMM.  Not saying anything during a match really does make one uncivil.  It doesn't matter that "gl hf" is basically similar to "hello."  If you don't want your opponent to have fun or have good luck, then at least say "Hi!"

This is basic civility in all of gaming--not just online stuff, but handshakes aren't exactly possible online.  Say hello, say gl hf, say what you like, but for goodness' sake acknowledge that you and your opponent are both humans.  Or, put another way:  I dislike playing against players who wouldn't pass a Turing test based on our game.
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Donald X.

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2011, 07:06:13 pm »
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I am totally sympathetic towards the guy who wanted to see just how well his deck could perform, and totally unsympathetic towards the guy who made the other guy wait for the timeout.

Them being a jerk doesn't justify you being a jerk. The only time you being jerk is justified is when it's hilarious. And that takes an audience so it really can't apply here.

Timeouts may be honest, but I think the obvious trick is just, track the timeouts by player, and if a player tends to only timeout on later turns in losing positions, drop them from the leaderboard. The leaderboard is the only prize here, so that's as much as you can do. It's the internet; you will always be up against twelve-year-olds some of the time, and the system just has to deal with it as best it can.

Edit: Also I hate how this forum software adds blank lines.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 07:08:06 pm by Donald X. »
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papaHav

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2011, 08:53:25 pm »
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I've taken 3-4 extra turns to try and win the pile driver achievement for colonys...
Worth it! and I appreciate a sport who will play on to try and deny it from me.
=D


Conversely, as the loser in a drawn out game, plenty of times I've stolen a win from a stalling player in the lead...
I'm happy when he stalls passing up the option to win. And obviously if I think my odds are still zero I always have the option to resign and save time, so why is the loser ever entitled to complain about others playing the game and punish them?
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RichyRich

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2011, 10:37:25 pm »
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I fail to see why someone wouldn't mention hf, or rather, wouldn't consider hf meaningful. Is anyone on isotropic making money off of a high ranking or w/l ratio? Is anyone earning remarkable accolades and fame within the higher circles of the world? Unless there's some unknown massive following for isotropic games, or there's some secret benefactor paying the top players, no one is earning anything from playing Dominion other than enjoyment and some sense of self-accomplishment. If you're not going to have fun, then why in the world are you playing this game?

As soon as the game is not fun, stop playing. Conversely, keep playing as long as you enjoy it. Good luck and have fun :D
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rls22

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2011, 10:48:38 pm »
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On the resigning issue...  Real world problems aside (important phone call, etc.), my personal opinion is that the only time it's really appropriate to resign is when you have absolutely no chance and the game is progressing very slowly (either because the other person is just playing slowly, or because an incredibly long action chain causes 3 min. turns).  I don't get too worked up about it, really.  But it does really annoy me if it's a fast game, and there's only 1-2 provinces left, and the other person resigns.  I mean, come on.  It just seems spiteful not to let the other person take the "real" win, if it's only going to take 2 min. 

I will admit that occasionally, I just don't notice when I can end the game through piles or something like that.  I tend to do other things while playing so sometimes am just distracted (especially if it's not a close game).  So, I'm not being a dick, just absent-minded...
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Death to Sea Hags

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2011, 07:32:52 am »
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Yes, there's a resign button, but I think most players frown on resigning one turn before game-end.  There have been lots of threads on BGG already about resigning, and given how often games reach objectively hopeless situations, there's a surprisingly low resignation rate. There's still an expectation that a game will be played out where reasonable to do so.  But part of that community norm is an expectation that the losing player's willingness to stay put and lose graciously is not going to be abused by the winner.
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Nagetier

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2011, 08:31:40 am »
+1

my personal opinion is that the only time it's really appropriate to resign is when you have absolutely no chance [...] It just seems spiteful not to let the other person take the "real" win, if it's only going to take 2 min.

Opinion is fine, but I'm interested about why does it seem spiteful to you? There is just winning and losing in a 2-player game, nothing else. Resigning is actually a courtesy of the losing player to save both players from the likely boring last 2 minutes.

Quote from: Death to Sea Hags
But part of that community norm is an expectation that the losing player's willingness to stay put and lose graciously is not going to be abused by the winner.

I don't believe that such a norm can be established in sufficiently high-level play. There is no benefit to playing out decided games, but resigning them has an advantage. It's also is a well-established custom in most other game communities.
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Death to Sea Hags

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2011, 10:14:28 am »
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my personal opinion is that the only time it's really appropriate to resign is when you have absolutely no chance [...] It just seems spiteful not to let the other person take the "real" win, if it's only going to take 2 min.

Opinion is fine, but I'm interested about why does it seem spiteful to you? There is just winning and losing in a 2-player game, nothing else. Resigning is actually a courtesy of the losing player to save both players from the likely boring last 2 minutes.

Quote from: Death to Sea Hags
But part of that community norm is an expectation that the losing player's willingness to stay put and lose graciously is not going to be abused by the winner.

I don't believe that such a norm can be established in sufficiently high-level play. There is no benefit to playing out decided games, but resigning them has an advantage. It's also is a well-established custom in most other game communities.


Five responses:
1.  In sufficiently high level play, you take the win when you can.  My example involved a player deliberately prolonging an already-won game, by multiple turns.  There's a lot of adjectives for that behavior.  "High-level" isn't one of them.
2.  Isotropic, in aggregate, is not a sufficiently high-level community.  The average play level is simply that - average.  I agree there might be different norms for BGGDL games, or lvl 30+, but then you're referring to a very small % of the total players.
3.  Resigning is NOT the community norm in Dominion or isotropic.  Apart from all the background disconnects, lags, and "crap-the-boss-is-coming" time-outs, I am certain that if we trawled councilroom we'd find that end-game resignations cluster around the cards and situations that people hate most: KC-Possessions, KC-Saboteurs, Torturer pins, or mass-Ambassador, persistent Ghost ships, and 8-2 curse splits with no trashing, etc.  Moreover, I expect that 98% or more of Province only games where one player has over 43 pts before the last turn are NOT resigned.  Ditto for nearly every other objective standard of points-based hopelessness where there is still a plausible end within 3-8 turns.*
4.  Beginners are least likely to resign. If you're reading this board then you're not a noob.  But you've played against lots of them, and many of those games are NOT close. And yet, noobs rarely resign when down 6 provinces to zero.  A "play-mean-until-he-rage-quits" norm will encourage far more bad behavior than a "tit-for-tat-be-a-good-sport-or-else" norm does, and the former will drive noobs away from the hobby. It's very bad for the community and the hobby to excuse abusive behavior by winners, but decry such behavior by losers.
5.  Good sportsmanship involves respecting the other player's enjoyment of the game. There is satisfaction in completing a game, for winner and loser alike.


*Thus excluding perpetual motion vp machines, like Goons-Watchtower, KC-Monument, or Bishop-Gold-Gold-Gold.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 10:18:02 am by Death to Sea Hags »
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Eagle

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2011, 10:23:37 am »
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I will admit that occasionally, I just don't notice when I can end the game through piles or something like that.  I tend to do other things while playing so sometimes am just distracted (especially if it's not a close game).  So, I'm not being a dick, just absent-minded...


I do that too, so I understand.  I'm just thinking about the games where someone is playing 4 goons, a bunch of wharves, worker's village, etc. in a hand with 1 province left that you just can't seem to get enough coin to buy & end the miserable game, and he's sitting there just netting who knows how many points each turn instead of grabbing it himself.  There's no question that you're going to lose, and he's just trying to rub it in.
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rrenaud

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2011, 10:49:07 am »
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I do that too, so I understand.  I'm just thinking about the games where someone is playing 4 goons, a bunch of wharves, worker's village, etc. in a hand with 1 province left that you just can't seem to get enough coin to buy & end the miserable game, and he's sitting there just netting who knows how many points each turn instead of grabbing it himself.  There's no question that you're going to lose, and he's just trying to rub it in.

I am with guided on this one.  Where is the border?  If I am set up for a long game (I have more goons, a better infrastructure, etc), and you aren't (maybe you bought coppers too early, and now you can only play one goons per turn and average $6/turn), it's your burden to end the game.  I am just going to keep getting bigger until you push the game close to end, and then I am going to unleash the 3 goons/5 buys turns that ends it.  I am happy for you to resign if see the writing on the wall and I'll even tell you that when I think it's clear that the game is basically hopeless for you, but don't get pissed at me for making the game go long, it's where I have the highest chance of winning.  Even if it's the difference between a 100% chance of winning (long) and a 98% chance of winning (short), I'll go long.

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Eagle

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2011, 11:20:34 am »
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I do that too, so I understand.  I'm just thinking about the games where someone is playing 4 goons, a bunch of wharves, worker's village, etc. in a hand with 1 province left that you just can't seem to get enough coin to buy & end the miserable game, and he's sitting there just netting who knows how many points each turn instead of grabbing it himself.  There's no question that you're going to lose, and he's just trying to rub it in.

I am with guided on this one.  Where is the border?  If I am set up for a long game (I have more goons, a better infrastructure, etc), and you aren't (maybe you bought coppers too early, and now you can only play one goons per turn and average $6/turn), it's your burden to end the game.  I am just going to keep getting bigger until you push the game close to end, and then I am going to unleash the 3 goons/5 buys turns that ends it.  I am happy for you to resign if see the writing on the wall and I'll even tell you that when I think it's clear that the game is basically hopeless for you, but don't get pissed at me for making the game go long, it's where I have the highest chance of winning.  Even if it's the difference between a 100% chance of winning (long) and a 98% chance of winning (short), I'll go long.


I agree if you have a better shot by going long, by all means go long.  I'm talking about when you have a %100 chance of winning by ending it right now by buying that one last card that your opponent cant, vs. a %100 chance of winning by dragging it out 30 minutes just to make the loser feel bad.
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Anon79

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2011, 11:23:10 am »
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Okay, I think there's two separate scenarios here.

One is the case where the game is almost but not quite 100% won for the leading player; in this case I argue that the leading player should be allowed to do whatever it takes to win the game. And if that means playing out a 3-minute-long chain and further bloating the deck, or running up the perpetual-combo VP tokens, etc, then so be it.

The other case is where the game has been 100% decided. In which case, I feel that the leading player should not drag the game out but should play towards a reasonably fast conclusion of the game. Sometimes the leading player may misjudge and play towards a slower ending, e.g. after a close Duchy+Estate dance, should the leading player build up the deck again to buy that last province, or work with the trailing player to empty a 3rd pile? Whichever he picks, if the trailing player picks otherwise then a misunderstanding might arise where the trailing player feels the leading player is dragging out the game, but the leading player is actually playing towards an alternate end.

As a subset of this 100% situation, the leading player may sometimes fail to realise that e.g. a 3-pile ending is possible, and start playing towards another end which is "obviously" longer. In such situations I argue that the leading player has no right to complain if the trailing player decides to resign 1 turn before the game ends, the rationale being that the leading player IS unnecessarily prolonging the game, albeit inadvertently, instead of bringing it to a swift end. The trailing player has no way of judging whether the leading player is absent-minded or just being mean, so is somewhat justified in resigning since the leading player is somewhat "at-fault" here.

TL;DR:
1) The border is whether the game is 100% won or not 100% won.
2) If you are being "absent-minded", but your behaviour is no different from someone who is "being a dick", you have no justification to be annoyed should your oppo resign 1 turn before the game ends. In a sense, you are the one who started behaving badly.
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theory

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2011, 11:40:23 am »
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A lot of arguments and disagreements come when people speculate on others' motives.  We tend to ascribe negative motives more readily to others than to ourselves.

Here, if you're really upset at what your opponent is doing and you are convinced that he is deliberately trying to make you suffer, it seems like you have a nice solution to this problem: the resign button.  The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success, in which case his play is more than justified and you should not ascribe him such malevolent motives.
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guided

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2011, 11:44:15 am »
+1

If you think the game is lost, and you want it to end, resign. That's what resignation is for. There is no defensible universe of ethics where it's not OK to click the "resign" button but it is OK to resign by deliberately timing out.

I don't toy with people on purpose, ever, but somebody who's built an awesome engine and wants to have fun riding it for a while is still playing the game. If it's unfun for you, again: resign and be done with it. If it's really unfun for you, don't play with them again, or try to convince them to be more considerate next time.
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Eagle

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2011, 11:49:22 am »
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Here, if you're really upset at what your opponent is doing and you are convinced that he is deliberately trying to make you suffer, it seems like you have a nice solution to this problem: the resign button.  The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success, in which case his play is more than justified and you should not ascribe him such malevolent motives.


Just try to not get too frustrated while waiting 10 minutes while they play their completely unnecessary 45 move turn, waiting 2 minutes between clicks, until you *can* click the resign button.
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livious

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2011, 11:57:31 am »
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I'm indifferent to the pleasantries.  I'll respond to a greeting and usually say gg at the end, whatever.
I don't think there's anything wrong if somebody wants to play for the most points.  If they're trying to waste your time it's a pretty terrible method considering it only works if you've got some strange aversion to the concede button.  If anything I've felt vaguely bad sometimes when I've done the reverse and wasted someone's time by not scooping and letting them move on with their life when I'm in a clearly hopeless position.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2011, 12:01:40 pm »
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This is a no brainer folks.  It is never discourteous to resign from a game.  Ever.  As a matter of fact, it is more polite to resign when you have already lost.  It is not good courtesy to keep playing cards when you can make one move and win.  There is no reason whatsoever to do anything else when one move will end the game.  Just go to the buy phase and buy the Province.
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Death to Sea Hags

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2011, 12:40:54 pm »
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The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success

This is a core assumption.  But its normative - not descriptive.  The vast majority of players do not resign the instant they know a game is lost.  As I said, look at how often you get to 43 points in a standard game but the other player doesn't resign on their next turn.

I completely agree that if a game is at all in doubt, play on.  If you want to save for a mega-turn, do it.  If you need to slog on until you've exhausted three piles, okay.  And maybe you just don't see the third pile - happens.  People LIKE to play to the end of a game, and self-evidently the vast majority of the players on Isotropic think it's enjoyable and courteous to do so.  I just think taking advantage of that courtesy is wrong.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2011, 12:49:42 pm »
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I like letting the games play out generally, particularly for the statistics-gathering sites. But if my opponent isn't ending it as quickly as I thought, or if it's going to be a long, painful course, I'll go ahead and resign.
The ggs and such I'll generally give if my opponent does, but I don't feel obligated, especially if they don't. I'll actually write something out if I think it was actually a particularly wonderful or interesting game.

rls22

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2011, 12:52:23 pm »
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I think some of the differing opinions on resigning come down to whether you think "a win is a win, no matter if you get it through your opponent resigning or through actually completing the game" or whether you get some satisfaction out of actually completing the game.  I tend towards the latter (part of the fun of dominion is when your engine gets going and you get to see how what you've built plays out).  So, I think resigning can take away some of the enjoyment for the other person.  But, if the game is a long way from ending, I don't expect people to invest 5+ minutes solely in someone else's enjoyment.  Again, I usually don't get too worked up about it, because I know there's differing opinions.  But, to me, 1 province left in a fast game feels like you should just let it ride out for sportsmanship purposes, even if its mathematically impossible for you to win. 
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chwhite

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2011, 12:59:24 pm »
+1

Personally, I much prefer to play until the end of a game, even when I know for sure I've lost.  Sometimes if I've been Torturer-pinned to utter oblivion and it's really no fun at all, then I'll resign (and if I resign I'll acknowledge my opponent with a "gg"), but normally I'll let my opponent play it out until the end, and I really don't mind at all if they spend a little extra time to show off what, for example, their multi-Goons engine can do.  Mega-turns are fun, it's more satisfying to play things to completion, and I don't want to deprive any opponents that feel the same.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 01:14:31 pm by chwhite »
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2011, 02:38:36 pm »
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I am one of those who agrees that a "hi gl hf" and a "gg" make the game more pleasant, even if you don't think they mean anything. And I enjoy chatting about strategy afterward, if my opponent is like-minded, so if you're reading this and we meet...:)

On resigning: is it ok to point out to your opponent that they can resign? Not every new player knows it exists, and I often have the feeling that my opponent isn't having fun anymore (sometimes due to a snarky comment or two), but I also am not sure how to phrase this in a way that isn't demeaning or gloating (because saying it means you think your opponent has no chance, and he might be playing out the game to be polite to you).

I will usually say something like "I won't be offended if you resign", but I'm not sure if this is rude, and am interested to hear if anyone has ever suggested that their opponent resign, or received such a suggestion, and how it was phrased.


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guided

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2011, 02:58:32 pm »
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If somebody complains that they think I'm drawing out the game, I'll point out that they're free to resign. Otherwise I'll just finish the game, though as I mentioned before I will sometimes offer an explanation for why it might appear I'm running up the score--typically involving the word "paranoid"  ;)
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