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Author Topic: Decline of civility on isotropic?  (Read 249670 times)

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Kuildeous

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2011, 03:16:34 pm »
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If somebody complains that they think I'm drawing out the game, I'll point out that they're free to resign. Otherwise I'll just finish the game, though as I mentioned before I will sometimes offer an explanation for why it might appear I'm running up the score--typically involving the word "paranoid"  ;)

Not that I've been in that situation, but if I could tell that the other player simply was not having fun, I'd put the possible offense on me.

Something like, "My feelings won't be hurt if you want to call it now." That would prompt a newbie to ask, "How do I do that?"
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2011, 03:18:15 pm »
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I am one of those who agrees that a "hi gl hf" and a "gg" make the game more pleasant, even if you don't think they mean anything. And I enjoy chatting about strategy afterward, if my opponent is like-minded, so if you're reading this and we meet... :)

On resigning: is it ok to point out to your opponent that they can resign? Not every new player knows it exists, and I often have the feeling that my opponent isn't having fun anymore (sometimes due to a snarky comment or two), but I also am not sure how to phrase this in a way that isn't demeaning or gloating (because saying it means you think your opponent has no chance, and he might be playing out the game to be polite to you).

I will usually say something like "I won't be offended if you resign", but I'm not sure if this is rude, and am interested to hear if anyone has ever suggested that their opponent resign, or received such a suggestion, and how it was phrased.




Never ever tell your opponent to resign. I play a good amount of chess, a game where resignation is expected and considered polite, and it's a huge no-no there to try to get your opponent to resign with anything other than your moves. Here it's much less a normal part of the game, and so you certainly shouldn't. On the other hand, if your opponent is complaining about how they can't resign or how the game is taking forever, please just end it, then you can point it out. But without this, no.

theory

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2011, 03:22:56 pm »
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The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success

This is a core assumption.  But its normative - not descriptive.  The vast majority of players do not resign the instant they know a game is lost.  As I said, look at how often you get to 43 points in a standard game but the other player doesn't resign on their next turn.

I completely agree that if a game is at all in doubt, play on.  If you want to save for a mega-turn, do it.  If you need to slog on until you've exhausted three piles, okay.  And maybe you just don't see the third pile - happens.  People LIKE to play to the end of a game, and self-evidently the vast majority of the players on Isotropic think it's enjoyable and courteous to do so.  I just think taking advantage of that courtesy is wrong.
The complaint was that in an obviously won position, the other person deliberately extends the game (e.g. buys a Duchy instead of the last Province, or doesn't end the third pile).

But if you are in that situation, you are also in a position to have resigned in an obviously lost position.  So I have no sympathy for your complaint, because you chose to bring it upon yourself by choosing not to resign.
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rrenaud

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2011, 03:32:51 pm »
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Never ever tell your opponent to resign. I play a good amount of chess, a game where resignation is expected and considered polite, and it's a huge no-no there to try to get your opponent to resign with anything other than your moves. Here it's much less a normal part of the game, and so you certainly shouldn't. On the other hand, if your opponent is complaining about how they can't resign or how the game is taking forever, please just end it, then you can point it out. But without this, no.

In chess, resigning is a lot more common place.  Further, i's different to tell your opponent to resign than it is to tell them that you are okay with them to resigning.  The first might be, "hey, you've lost noob!", and the second is more like, "hey, you've almost certainly lost and  I don't think this is fun for you anymore, you should feel free to go and do something more fun."
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2011, 03:54:41 pm »
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Never ever tell your opponent to resign. I play a good amount of chess, a game where resignation is expected and considered polite, and it's a huge no-no there to try to get your opponent to resign with anything other than your moves. Here it's much less a normal part of the game, and so you certainly shouldn't. On the other hand, if your opponent is complaining about how they can't resign or how the game is taking forever, please just end it, then you can point it out. But without this, no.

In chess, resigning is a lot more common place.  Further, i's different to tell your opponent to resign than it is to tell them that you are okay with them to resigning.  The first might be, "hey, you've lost noob!", and the second is more like, "hey, you've almost certainly lost and  I don't think this is fun for you anymore, you should feel free to go and do something more fun."
The first sentence of this makes me wonder if you even read my post through, because I basically said that.
To your second point, I think that telling them that you're okay with them resigning might be marginally better, but it essentially boils down to the same thing. The second hypothetical message you posted comes across as incredibly arrogant to me - how in the world would I know how much fun they're having better than they do?

rrenaud

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2011, 04:10:38 pm »
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I think tone is being lost in the text. 

I was mostly pointing out that starting from Chess, where resigning is common place and as far as I can tell, games rarely end in real checkmates, and then applying social norms from the chess community to Dominion, where resigning is much less common, and some people think it's bad form to ever resign doesn't make a great analogy.  In chess, where you expect the opponent to resign when they think the game is lost, the offer is certainly more arrogant in than in Dominion.

I think it's reasonable to believe that people prefer playing Dominion games which are yet undecided compared to playing games where they are almost certainly decided and the game will be a loss.  Most people say thanks, gg, when I make the offer to accept resignation.  I've never lost after I've made the offer.  And occasionally, some "never resign" players go and endure the beating and that's fine.  It's a little annoying if they both don't resign and expect me to play for a short end game, but hey, that's their pejorative (they aren't getting short end game until I can be certain that I win).  But it's not really arrogant on my part, I just gave them an option.  I don't do it to piss off my opponents, I just think the resignation is in our mutual interest, we both get to play the fun part of Dominion, where you don't actually know the outcome of a particular game yet.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 04:13:16 pm by rrenaud »
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ImperialStout

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2011, 05:54:25 pm »
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To the extent that Isotropic is a relatively new community with inchoate mores, I think it's more helpful to guide etiquette by how you would want people to act in your ideal online Dominion community, rather than what you believe is expected by others.  For instance, all things being equal, I would prefer that people "gg" for all games that were politely played and stay silent for rude players (like those who take 1:30 for each move and discard and then ask their opponents to hurry up, you know who you are) then peremptorily leaving in most cases and saving the "gg" for a select few games.  But then, I enjoy post game discussion after an interesting game, and that puts me in a vanishing minority.  At the end of the day, it's not very important whether people "gg" or not as long they aren't sandbagging or typing profanity in all caps or what have you.
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guided

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2011, 05:55:52 pm »
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But then, I enjoy post game discussion after an interesting game

Me too! Thanks again for playing (and discussing) today.
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ImperialStout

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2011, 06:20:07 pm »
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Same to you!
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Personman

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #84 on: June 21, 2011, 02:43:33 am »
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that's their pejorative

I believe you mean 'prerogative', but what's really cool about that is that in correcting your usage, I also corrected my own spelling -- I was totally certain that 'pejorative' was actually spelt 'perjorative', and was just wrong. So thanks! ;)


the actual content of your post


I totally agree. Especially because the Isotropic resign button is so out-of-the-way, in such situations I often say something like 'No offense at all, but do you know about the resign button? It's kind of hidden.' I've never gotten an angry response, though sometimes people seem to be confused about why I would want them to resign -- there does seem to be an oddly pervasive notion in the Dominion community that resigning is rude, and that most people would rather play out an obvious victory than move on to the next game. I sort of understand this in the case of a really cool combo deck that you want to see go off, but it's weird to me that so many people seem to think it's the normal thing.


WanderingWinder, it makes sense that you would see it how you do coming from the Chess community, but I do think the norms are pretty different here, where most people don't even know that resignation is an option, and many that do think it is impolite. I probably wouldn't suggest resigning to anyone I knew personally or who had resigned to me before, though.
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Death to Sea Hags

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #85 on: June 21, 2011, 09:44:25 am »
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there does seem to be an oddly pervasive notion in the Dominion community that resigning is rude, and that most people would rather play out an obvious victory than move on to the next game. I sort of understand this in the case of a really cool combo deck that you want to see go off, but it's weird to me that so many people seem to think it's the normal thing.

I think it has to do with the tempo of the game. Dominion moves quickly and there's an expectation that even a hopeless game will end soon, so there's no great loss in sticking around to the end.

Except, of course, when that expectation is frustrated: the turns drag on, the other player plays "slowly", or the game takes far longer than it should. 

Our perceptions of time are colored by expectations.  In other games, a minute for a move might be totally reasonable - but here, it can feel like an eternity. The problem is that our subjective notions of time and our expectations of "typical" behavior then create situations where the frustration of our expectations causes unhappiness or dicsord. Civility and courtesy are thus about reducing that discord.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #86 on: June 21, 2011, 09:56:45 am »
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I totally agree. Especially because the Isotropic resign button is so out-of-the-way, in such situations I often say something like 'No offense at all, but do you know about the resign button? It's kind of hidden.'

You could always work it into an anecdote. After the opponent makes a play, tell a story (true or not) about how such a move defeated you. Something like, "I remember one game where the other guy had four Goons, and he played them every single turn with a Watchtower to trash the extra cards he bought. After he did that a couple of times, I had to click on Resign Game."

It gives advice on how a card can be exploited, and it lets the opponent know that the button exists. He might ask for it, or he might poke around on his own to try to find it. But, in either case, there should be zero chance that you'll offend the other person (unless he just doesn't like hearing your stories).

Tone is lost in text. While, "I won't be offended if you want to resign," can sound friendly with a pleasant tone of voice and body language, the text strips all that away, and tone is interpreted wholly by the reader and his mood. If the opponent is clearly losing the game, he might be frustrated by bad hand draws or Ghost Ship smacking him around. With such a sour mood, it's quite possible that such an innocuous statement could be taken the wrong way.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2011, 11:14:29 am »
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I'm maybe not so against making sure that resignation is possible, since the button isn't always sitting there (IMHO it should be), I just don't think you should suggest it unbidden.

Kirian

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2011, 11:15:48 am »
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I feel like the issue of people not knowing about the resign button could be resolved by having the "end turn" button read "end turn/resign" before you've played anything on your turn.  That would be something for DougZ to do though, and I don't know if he's taking requests.

(Of course, the actual resign button would still need to appear separately to not kill misclicks.)

(And if people read the FAQ, they'd know, but people don't really do that any more, do they?)
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2011, 11:19:19 am »
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Email DougZ if you want something changed. He says it's fine for you to do so in the FAQ. I've emailed him twice in the past to suggest/recommend changes to the isotropic interface and in both cases the changes were implemented within a week or two. I have no idea if my emails influenced the changes or if there were being worked on anyway, but they happened.
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Death to Sea Hags

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #90 on: June 21, 2011, 12:12:43 pm »
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Maybe just a headline in the lobby, or broadcast at the start of the game in the chat box would help.  It would be more impersonal, and would come at a less sensitive moment.  People are more likely to take offense if the resignation suggestion comes from the winner, at the end of the game when the loser may be feeling frustrated.
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theory

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #91 on: June 21, 2011, 12:36:23 pm »
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Clearly Isotropic should just automatically prompt you once you are sufficiently far behind.


"You look like you're really crapping the bed in this game.  You should probably just resign."
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Stoc

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #92 on: June 21, 2011, 01:21:43 pm »
+1

Clearly Isotropic should just automatically prompt you once you are sufficiently far behind.


"You look like you're really crapping the bed in this game.  You should probably just resign."
This made me spit out my water. :)
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Kirian

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #93 on: June 21, 2011, 01:45:09 pm »
+1

"You look like you're trying to win, and failing.  Would you like to resign?"


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Axe Knight

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #94 on: June 21, 2011, 03:16:12 pm »
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It could let you know if it's impossible to win though.  "There aren't enough Victory Cards in the deck for you to win.  Resign?" 
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Amaranth

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #95 on: June 22, 2011, 01:23:01 pm »
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I'd just like to give a shoutout to zert for his good sportsmanship the other day. I played Throne Room on Masquerade, misclicked and accidentally sent him a Bridge, and he very kindly gave it back to me when it went off the second time. I'd been annoyed by a couple of people on isotropic recently and it's nice to see something like that.
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caesuric

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2011, 01:43:26 am »
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I think I'm especially unfond of people who end games with things like "gg 5/2" and then immediately hit exit.  Yes, Dominion has a random number generator.  It screws you sometimes, no doubt about it.  I'll bet these same people don't say "gg 5/2" when they win a game where the situation is reversed.

It strikes me as extremely impolite to complain about your luck to strangers on isotropic in anything but the most diplomatic terms.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2011, 06:12:54 am »
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Have you considered some sort of black list (maybe just open for this forum) for impolite/disrispectful/offensive players?
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2011, 07:22:00 am »
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Public blacklists are too easily abused.  If you play with someone who offends you too much just make a note of it on your own personal blacklist.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2011, 08:14:54 am »
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That's what I thought, ty.
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