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Author Topic: So Pokemon X and Y.  (Read 72465 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #450 on: August 15, 2016, 04:02:36 pm »
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2 turn weather would be competitively entirely useless in Singles. I think 5/8 turn is a reasonable compromise.

How about if it depended on the format? 3 turns in Singles, 2 in Doubles? 4 turns in Singles, 2 in Doubles? 5 turns in Doubles is madness. It's…roughly equivalent to 15 to 20 turns in Singles? Admittedly it's better than the infinite duration it used to have.

EDIT: I should note that I don't really care about Singles at all. It's such a boring format compared to Doubles.

Sure you can't use literally anything as a weather setter.

Assuming a format where Groudon and Kyogre are banned, you have two available weather-setters for each weather type. Except rain, which only has Politoed. And using Charizard-Y for sun takes up your Mega slot.

If the weather-setting Abilities were more widespread (possibly through tutoring?), that might also be an acceptable solution.
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Seprix

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #451 on: August 15, 2016, 04:07:01 pm »
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5 turn Weather is already pretty awful. I mean, it's fine in Doubles, but most people don't play that format.
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LastFootnote

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #452 on: August 15, 2016, 04:07:56 pm »
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5 turn Weather is already pretty awful. I mean, it's fine in Doubles, but most people don't play that format.

Data please.
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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #453 on: August 15, 2016, 04:21:53 pm »
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5 turn Weather is already pretty awful. I mean, it's fine in Doubles, but most people don't play that format.

Data please.

I can't back up the claim most people "don't play it" but looking at the online simulator data from last month (found here) there were over 10 times as many games in standard OU as doubles OU (2,654K vs. 236K).

This obviously is just using the online simulator, but that's about as good as you're gonna get, especially seeing as that's how most people who want to play competitively, play. It's also only using one format, OU and doubles OU, but eh, go ahead and scrape the rest of the data if you want a more complete comparison. I still expect well over 80%, probably still over 90% of games will be singles.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
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Lekkit

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #454 on: August 15, 2016, 06:07:26 pm »
+1

Note that Singles OU is not the format for official tournaments.
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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #455 on: August 15, 2016, 06:51:50 pm »
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Note that Singles OU is not the format for official tournaments.

And? Official tournament rules are kinda bad in pokemon. There's a reason the community uses its own rulesets.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

LastFootnote

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #456 on: August 15, 2016, 08:16:59 pm »
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Note that Singles OU is not the format for official tournaments.

And? Official tournament rules are kinda bad in pokemon. There's a reason the community uses its own rulesets.

Smogon's rules are awful. They're more geared toward maintaining their status quo than toward making a fun game.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #457 on: August 15, 2016, 08:32:16 pm »
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6v6 Singles is thought to be the coolest of the formats - see for example how Ash vs Gary, Ash vs Paul, Ash vs Alain, are all 6v6 singles.

Personally I agree, though I don't have anything against people preferring doubles. I find switching to be one of the main strategic draws of Pokemon, and you get much less of that in doubles.

Edit: LastFootnote, what's wrong with OU? It seems to be much more healthy than VGC doubles, for which tons and tons of teams had just the same 5 pokemon + 1.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 08:36:04 pm by XerxesPraelor »
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Chris is me

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #458 on: August 15, 2016, 10:42:40 pm »
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Note that Singles OU is not the format for official tournaments.

And? Official tournament rules are kinda bad in pokemon. There's a reason the community uses its own rulesets.

Smogon's rules are awful. They're more geared toward maintaining their status quo than toward making a fun game.

I have plenty of problems with the tiering process on Smogon, but they tend to result in pretty respectable metagames that end up more balanced than official tournaments. I think generally they are a little quick to ban, though.

Gen 6 UU turned into a pretty cool metagame I think?
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Seprix

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #459 on: August 15, 2016, 11:09:16 pm »
+2

Note that Singles OU is not the format for official tournaments.

And? Official tournament rules are kinda bad in pokemon. There's a reason the community uses its own rulesets.

Smogon's rules are awful. They're more geared toward maintaining their status quo than toward making a fun game.

I get that feeling too, but their rules are better than no rules. Then we'd see teams of six Dragonites or Mega Rayquaza. Like, seriously. What idiot in Game Freak thought it was a good idea to make Mega Rayquaza? It's so OP that it transcends Ubers!
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LastFootnote

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #460 on: August 16, 2016, 12:13:44 am »
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6v6 Singles is thought to be the coolest of the formats - see for example how Ash vs Gary, Ash vs Paul, Ash vs Alain, are all 6v6 singles.

Personally I agree, though I don't have anything against people preferring doubles. I find switching to be one of the main strategic draws of Pokemon, and you get much less of that in doubles.

Edit: LastFootnote, what's wrong with OU? It seems to be much more healthy than VGC doubles, for which tons and tons of teams had just the same 5 pokemon + 1.

Oh, agreed. VGC 2016 is a ridiculous format. Back when I played in high school (3rd gen), we settled on a banlist of all legends and pseudo-legends (Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross). Maybe these days I'd be fine with the Battle Spot banlist? But allowing Mewtwo, Kyogre, etc., is just ridiculous.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #461 on: August 16, 2016, 12:27:28 am »
+1

To be clear, I like doubles a lot too - when I go on pokemonshowdown for a randomized game, I always prefer doubles or triples to random singles.

(and you've talked before about how entry hazards are balanced badly for 6v6 singles, and I agree)

I guess it just seems less random to me for some reason, and the games go on longer, which is nice for competitive play.
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LastFootnote

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #462 on: August 16, 2016, 12:50:57 am »
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To be clear, I like doubles a lot too - when I go on pokemonshowdown for a randomized game, I always prefer doubles or triples to random singles.

(and you've talked before about how entry hazards are balanced badly for 6v6 singles, and I agree)

I guess it just seems less random to me for some reason, and the games go on longer, which is nice for competitive play.

Well, Smogon's 6v6 OU Singles ruleset is all about trying to make Pokémon into something it was never meant to be. Pokémon has a lot of luck intrinsic to it, and Smogon tries to remove as much of that luck as they think they can get away with. But really they'd be better off just playing a game with less luck. Or at least I'd be better off if they played a game with less luck and left Pokémon alone.

I guess what I'm saying is: it's nice that Smogonites are able to play their 6v6 Singles, but it's a shame that that format has become the de facto standard for "serious" players. It's GameFreak's fault for not providing a good format sooner, but it's too late now.
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Lekkit

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #463 on: August 16, 2016, 03:42:47 am »
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Note that Singles OU is not the format for official tournaments.

And? Official tournament rules are kinda bad in pokemon. There's a reason the community uses its own rulesets.

While I agree that the official rules are bad. It makes no sense for Gamfreak to balance the game for a format they are not using.
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Chris is me

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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #464 on: August 16, 2016, 08:19:02 am »
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Note that Singles OU is not the format for official tournaments.

And? Official tournament rules are kinda bad in pokemon. There's a reason the community uses its own rulesets.

Smogon's rules are awful. They're more geared toward maintaining their status quo than toward making a fun game.

I get that feeling too, but their rules are better than no rules. Then we'd see teams of six Dragonites or Mega Rayquaza. Like, seriously. What idiot in Game Freak thought it was a good idea to make Mega Rayquaza? It's so OP that it transcends Ubers!

Don't even get me started on the concept of transcending Ubers. It's completely illogical to me.

Ubers is a ban tier to fix OU, which is supposed to be the most permissive balanced metagame possible. For a few gens, Ubers happened to be somewhat playable. Now Pokemon can be banned from Ubers in an attempt to balance Ubers... But if Ubers can be balanced, why isn't Ubers now OU? It's ridiculous. They either needed to stop treating Ubers like a competitive tier, or they needed to make Ubers the default tier. You can't do both.
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Re: So Pokemon X and Y.
« Reply #465 on: August 16, 2016, 09:31:30 am »
+1

Ubers is a ban tier to fix OU, which is supposed to be the most permissive balanced metagame possible. For a few gens, Ubers happened to be somewhat playable. Now Pokemon can be banned from Ubers in an attempt to balance Ubers... But if Ubers can be balanced, why isn't Ubers now OU? It's ridiculous. They either needed to stop treating Ubers like a competitive tier, or they needed to make Ubers the default tier. You can't do both.

Why not? I'm no competitive pokemon expert, but Ubers was originally just a banlist. It's since become a format of its own, but is still very different to other formats; from what I understand it's far more offensively oriented, and the viable list of pokemon in it is relatively small. Just looking at the data from July (using the highest ranked players data) it looks like ~38 pokemon were used on at least 3.45% of teams which IIRC is considered the benchmark for reasonably used pokemon, compared to ~51 in OU. So about 3/4 as many pokemon. And looking at the top of that list, man, there's a few pokemon with ridiculous numbers. In OU Landorus-T has a usage of 32% which seems really high, but Ubers has four pokemon higher (or barely lower) than that. It's not really all that balanced of a metagame, basically - you see the same pokemon pretty often, but presumably at least there are ways to counter those pokemon without using the same ones yourself. Still though, the point remains: They had a way to make the tier reasonably balanced for battling, so that's what it gets used for. The normal rules still apply in the tier. And if most people don't want a tier that's quite so centralised and small, which makes sense, it seems reasonable for the next tier down, OU, to be the standard tier.

As for why Mega Rayquaza got banned, I can't say. Presumably it was too ridiculous for even Ubers. It is still allowed in AG.

I'm not saying I think Smogon is perfect - I feel like they care a bit too much about tradition and avoiding making significant changes to things, and as a result you have rather stupid tier names for the main standard formats, as well as a huge mess of tiers with stuff like all the borderline tiers. I don't really feel like bans happen too quickly, I've seen the process they go through and it's pretty significant. They're regularly ending up with 1000+ posts of discussion and thousands of games of testing in data before doing anything, possibly more.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.
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