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[GendoIkari]

The FAQ for Hermit specifically addresses this interaction, and yet it's still not clear to me from the wording.

Back when Hermit was previewed, people were talking about the neat combo with Scheme... that is, you could choose to top-deck Hermit with Scheme, and then when you go to discard Hermit, Scheme would top-deck it, which would prevent Hermit from being trashed, but you would still get the Madman.

However, the FAQ for Hermit seems to imply otherwise... it says that if you choose to top-deck Hermit with the Scheme, then the "discard from play" clause won't fire. But it's not clear if it's just saying that it won't get trashed (allowing the combo), or that it won't work at all; no Madman for you.

The way I read the cards... you would discard Hermit from play. At that moment, Scheme and Hermit would both trigger their on-discard. So you would choose the order to resolve them in. You choose Scheme first, top-decking Hermit. Then you resolve Hermit, trying to trash it but failing because of lose-track, and gaining a Madman.

[Brando Commando]

Good reasoning. I suspect DXV will say that you don't get a Mad Man, but if so, I think that flies in the face of previous interpretations. What I mean is, many times it's become clear that card instructions -- even ones in the same sentence or even in the same note (as in, for example,drawing cards) -- are broken down as much as possible into individual actions that need to be executed independently of one another.

Also, nice use of the lose-track rule. Man, that thing has got to be the least intuitive part of the game.

EDIT: I'm already questioning my own interpretation, mostly of the FAQ: "If Hermit is not discarded from play during Clean-up--for example, if you put it on your deck with SchemeScheme.jpg (from Hinterlands)--then the ability that trashes it will not trigger." (per http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Hermit)

So the question is about the phrase in the FAQ that talks about "the ability that trashes [the Hermit]." Does that refer only to the trashing "ability" or to the whole phrase that trashes and gains a Mad Man?

[Donald X.]

The way I read the cards... you would discard Hermit from play. At that moment, Scheme and Hermit would both trigger their on-discard. So you would choose the order to resolve them in. You choose Scheme first, top-decking Hermit. Then you resolve Hermit, trying to trash it but failing because of lose-track, and gaining a Madman.

Onigame just asked this and had it correct, so I will quote what he said:

My ruling is that two things happen simultaneously:
(a) I trash the Hermit and gain a Madman.
(b) The Hermit goes on top of my deck.

I get to choose the order:

If I choose (a) then (b), I gain a Madman, the Hermit
goes to the Trash, and then (b) doesn't do anything because
I've lost track of the Hermit.

If I choose (b) then (a), I put the Hermit on top of my deck,
I attempt to trash the Hermit but fail because I've lost track
of it, and then I gain a Madman because I do as much as
possible of the statement.  (It does not say "Trash this.
If you did, gain a Madman from the Madman pile.")

That is all correct. Onigame notes that isotropic and Goko both have this wrong, in different ways.

The Dark Ages rulebook says, "If Hermit is not discarded from play during Clean-up - for example, if you put it on your deck with Scheme (from Hinterlands) - then the ability that trashes it won't trigger." The example is wrong; it's true that if Hermit isn't discarded from play during Clean-up then you won't get a Madman, but Scheme isn't actually an example of that. At one point Scheme put a card from play on your deck when Scheme itself was discarded, and therefore would have been an appropriate example; I was remembering that version.

[GendoIkari]

See, my problem is this sentence: "If Hermit is not discarded from play during Clean-up--for example, if you put it on your deck with Scheme..."

The thing is, Hermit IS discard from play when you use Scheme on it... Scheme itself only works "If you discard it from play this turn." So first it gets discarded from play, then Scheme moves it.

*Edit* Ninja'd; thanks Donald!

[Pikanto]

Hello everyone,

i just got Dark Ages yesterday - in German - and the rulebook denies the gaining of a madman with the scheme / hermit interation:

[SirPeebles]

Yeah, I assume that's the same mistake as in the English rules.  Donald was thinking of an older version of Scheme when he wrote that, which should be clear since Scheme does not work the way that passage claims.  I think this is intended to be fixed in future printings.

[Schlippy]

There are quite a few mistakes in the german rulebook. The FAQ about Beggar says that you put one of the silvers into your hand. :-þ