Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All

Author Topic: Shelters  (Read 30974 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Drab Emordnilap

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1832
  • Shuffle iT Username: Drab Emordnilap
  • Luther Bell Hendricks V
  • Respect: +1886
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2013, 09:44:02 am »
+2

The interesting thing about Necropolis is (while giving +2 actions) it actually disincentives opening double terminal.  Why?  Think about the terminals you normally open with.  Swindler (worse), Ambassador (worse), Baron (worse), etc.   Sure you can open Woodcutter / Navigator, but you don't want to.  I suppose it makes Black Market / Black Market viable on certain boards, and helps some Chapel openings, but there are very few double terminals I think I'd want.

Double Masquerade! Woo!
Logged

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2013, 09:44:28 am »
+1

By the way, the conditional probability that you have necropolis in hand given that your terminals have collided during your first reshuffle is 1 - 9*8*7/10^3 = 49.6%.  Those are some pretty good odds, particularly when you consider that there is already a good chance that the terminals won't collide.

By the way, here I'm assuming that your terminals didn't collide in turn 5; you're in bad shape in that instance any how.  I'm also avoiding any funny business like opening Death Cart, being hit by a turn 3 Sea Hag, an opponent opening IGG, etc.

Edit:  I mathed wrong.  It's only a 30% chance, not 49.6%
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 09:59:50 am by SirPeebles »
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2013, 09:48:10 am »
+1

Steward/Sea Hag could be a nice double terminal opener.  Or even Steward/Steward.  Maybe Young Witch/Bane (Steward, Woodcutter, Masq, or even Amb if it's Bane)
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2013, 10:51:44 am »
+1

Davio, you're entitled to your uninformed opinion, but I don't see why anybody should take you seriously when you've played a negligible number of games with Shelters. You really have no idea what you're talking about.
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +766
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2013, 11:57:49 am »
+1

You are quite wrong about Rebuild/Oge in my experience. When you hit Rebuild, you are already getting to 5 coin hands and the game is about buying/gaining duchies to Rebuild into Provinces. It takes two plays of Rebuild to bump Oge up to duchy, which is a bit faster than than the three required to turn the Estates into Duchies, better the +1 card off the first hit make it easier to buy something useful (like a duchy).

Some more general shelter points:
Limiting the number of estates hurts all the VP based attacks - B-crat is even weaker in the opening. It takes a LOT longer for Rabble to really hurt (barring curses); Fortune Teller is actually weaker against Shelters - in the early game it has good odds of reshuffling and getting your new better cards into circulation faster. Jester also loses some oomf as you have 2 immune cards.

Tribute and Xroads also play slightly differently as the initial card types have changed a bit. Xroads in particular is rarely useful for draw even in the mid game without estates; however with Necro, a Xroads or two can let you play a 4 or 5 terminal mini-engine deck. Transmute, already weak, gets even crappier without estates to target.

All of the scaling Tfbs get weaker (Bishop being, perhaps the lone exception). Even something like Trader takes a beating as an opener with Shelters out.

A few other big things about Necropolis:
1. You can much more confidently open double terminal. Odds are already against non-drawing terminals colliding in the first shuffle, but with Necro out the possibility is even more remote. Necro also makes it much strong to open trashing/terminal as you will be able to play both even after your deck gets thinned down - even if you buy some silvers for a bit.
2. It makes village denial harder. Take the obvious example of a Goons engine. The number of Goons you can play is often determined by how many villages you can buy. Winning the Goons split 6:4 is nearly useless if you lose the village split 4:6. With Necropolis you can play 5 Goons to your opponent's 4 and that is a win in the long term. Necropolis means that it is harder to deny +action to some engine that relies on lots of terminal action plays for draw, payload, or both.
3. Necro boosts limited draw like Jack, Watchtower, and Lib out of the gate. In like manner, Necro is quite nice for Peddler, Horn of Plenty, and Conspirator.
4. Necro does mean you can reliably dump a second terminal into non-terminal draw engines. This can be quite spectacular (e.g. militia/masq), but more commonly let's you do something like have a +buy and an attack or an attack and a light trasher both running.

Logged

flies

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 629
  • Shuffle iT Username: flies
  • Statistical mechanics of hard rods on a 1D lattice
  • Respect: +348
    • View Profile
    • ask the atheists
Re: Shelters
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2013, 12:16:24 pm »
+1

You are quite wrong about Rebuild/Oge in my experience. When you hit Rebuild, you are already getting to 5 coin hands and the game is about buying/gaining duchies to Rebuild into Provinces. It takes two plays of Rebuild to bump Oge up to duchy, which is a bit faster than than the three required to turn the Estates into Duchies, better the +1 card off the first hit make it easier to buy something useful (like a duchy).

At first I misunderstood you.  If your goal is to rebuild duchies into provinces, then 3 starting estates will slow you down more than one OGE.  OTOH, in the case of estates, at the end of your 3 rebuild plays, you've got 3 duchies (or, more likely, E/D/P) instead of one province.  This means you have more opportunities to buy rebuilds instead of duchies, so it seems to me that shelters hurt Rebuild more than they help.
Logged
Gotta be efficient when most of your hand coordination is spent trying to apply mascara to your beard.
flies Dominionates on youtube

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2013, 12:19:49 pm »
+1

You are quite wrong about Rebuild/Oge in my experience. When you hit Rebuild, you are already getting to 5 coin hands and the game is about buying/gaining duchies to Rebuild into Provinces. It takes two plays of Rebuild to bump Oge up to duchy, which is a bit faster than than the three required to turn the Estates into Duchies, better the +1 card off the first hit make it easier to buy something useful (like a duchy).

At first I misunderstood you.  If your goal is to rebuild duchies into provinces, then 3 starting estates will slow you down more than one OGE.  OTOH, in the case of estates, at the end of your 3 rebuild plays, you've got 3 duchies (or, more likely, E/D/P) instead of one province.  This means you have more opportunities to buy rebuilds instead of duchies, so it seems to me that shelters hurt Rebuild more than they help.

I'm not a perfect Rebuild player, but in my experience I rarely want more than 2 Rebuilds anyway before I only buy Duchies.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2013, 12:20:40 pm »
0

  The player who saves his Hovel has just as much junk as you do until that first Province buy - then he has less.  Now, if you can think you can make a really quick three-pile ending before your opponent has a chance to pick up any Provinces, then Hoveling an Estate might be a good idea, as winning 1-0 is still winning.  But, how often will such situations arise?


This if faulty logic... it makes the assumption that you will always have Hovel in hand when you buy your first Province. That's not very likely, unless you are building a deck-drawing engine. In a game without much drawing, to buy a Province with Hovel in hand means you got to $8 using only 4 cards... it's much more likely that you can get to $8 with 5 cards than it is with just 4 cards.

I'm definitely not saying that I know for sure that buying an Estate on 5/2 isn't usually the wrong move... it very well might be. But you definitely can't assume that you'll have the chance to trash it on a Province buy later on. I remember this being discussed at great length in another thread, and I thought that there was still no consensus; with a lot of people making good arguments on both sides.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2013, 12:27:31 pm »
0

The interesting thing about Necropolis is (while giving +2 actions) it actually disincentives opening double terminal.  Why?  Think about the terminals you normally open with.  Swindler (worse), Ambassador (worse), Baron (worse), etc.   Sure you can open Woodcutter / Navigator, but you don't want to.  I suppose it makes Black Market / Black Market viable on certain boards, and helps some Chapel openings, but there are very few double terminals I think I'd want.

Double Masquerade! Woo!

I especially like this because Masquerade is the only way to ever have multiple copies of a Shelter in your deck.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

timchen

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 704
  • Shuffle iT Username: allfail
  • Respect: +234
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2013, 12:33:59 pm »
0

timchen, Davio: you're saying you expect the coolness and newness of them to wear off after about 100 games. But how many games have you played with them?

I want to say 100, but it's probably less, which is even worse. If it's on isotropic it might be better though;  that way I won't be so distracted by their appearance. ..
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2013, 12:37:27 pm »
0

Fortune Teller reacts interestingly - it now effectively discards your opponent's entire deck in the beginning - this can prove very annoying if it prevents them from playing or lining up key cards - one IRL game I played had me frustrated for a few turns as a Fortune Teller prevented me from lining up my Urchin with my Marauder to get a Mercenary.

This isn't quite true.  FT does not effectively discard the opponent's entire deck, because OGE is still a victory card.  It makes FT more likely to discard the opponent's entire deck, but it's still no guarantee.  Similarly, without shelters, FT can still discard the opponent's entire deck if all 3 Estates are in their hand or otherwise not in the deck/discard.

Moreover, the increased cycling that FT gives the opponent is not necessarily a bad thing.  It's often a good thing.  In your one experience, FT made it more difficult to play a certain card because it caused you to keep skipping past it.  But FT can also help.  Say you have a terminal you want to play often.  FT increasing your cycling means that you may very well see that card more often.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2013, 01:08:30 pm »
0

Davio, you're entitled to your uninformed opinion, but I don't see why anybody should take you seriously when you've played a negligible number of games with Shelters. You really have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't think this is entirely true. Although I agree that my opinion isn't worth that much due to my lack of experience, I don't think it's worthless. I am a very experienced Dominion player. I'm not in WW's league, but I have a couple thousand games under my belt. So I think I can oversee the Dominion landscape quite well and am thus entitled to give an opinion that has some value.

If Donald would show a new card to Stef, without letting him play with, I'd still value his opinion on it. Now I'm of course not in the same league, but you get the idea.

Thing is, you can see interactions in your head and how games would play out without actually playing them. And you don't even have to be some kind of rain man.

I'll admit that I'm more than likely not entirely right, that doesn't mean I'm automatically entirely wrong.

Reading this back it looks like all I want to do is brag about my mad skillz, but that's not the case.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 01:10:33 pm by Davio »
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Shelters
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2013, 01:25:36 pm »
+1

Davio, you're entitled to your uninformed opinion, but I don't see why anybody should take you seriously when you've played a negligible number of games with Shelters. You really have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't think this is entirely true. Although I agree that my opinion isn't worth that much due to my lack of experience, I don't think it's worthless. I am a very experienced Dominion player. I'm not in WW's league, but I have a couple thousand games under my belt. So I think I can oversee the Dominion landscape quite well and am thus entitled to give an opinion that has some value.

If Donald would show a new card to Stef, without letting him play with, I'd still value his opinion on it. Now I'm of course not in the same league, but you get the idea.

Thing is, you can see interactions in your head and how games would play out without actually playing them. And you don't even have to be some kind of rain man.

I'll admit that I'm more than likely not entirely right, that doesn't mean I'm automatically entirely wrong.

Reading this back it looks like all I want to do is brag about my mad skillz, but that's not the case.
Sure, I don't think your opinion is valueless. But I wouldn't put something out based on half a dozen games with them in a very casual setting. I guess my point is that you're saying this about actually published cards, which means they had to get past Donald and the playtesters, and my guess is that they, with a bunch of experience with the cards, are going to have more to say on them than you or I would. And they said enough to get them published.

I didn't get the impression you were bragging, I guess I am just saying I trust Donald more here.

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2013, 02:30:05 pm »
+1

One thing for shelters is that even though their effect might not be that big, it's an effect that can happen IN COMBINATION with other cards. If you add in one more kingdom card, it'll only show up some small fraction of the time and even then will have to replace a card.

Shelters can appear more often than any individual Kingdom card, so even if they have a smaller effect they'll have a smaller effect in more games, and they don't replace any other kingdom card.
Logged

WheresMyElephant

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2013, 02:36:08 pm »
+1

  The player who saves his Hovel has just as much junk as you do until that first Province buy - then he has less.  Now, if you can think you can make a really quick three-pile ending before your opponent has a chance to pick up any Provinces, then Hoveling an Estate might be a good idea, as winning 1-0 is still winning.  But, how often will such situations arise?


This if faulty logic... it makes the assumption that you will always have Hovel in hand when you buy your first Province. That's not very likely, unless you are building a deck-drawing engine. In a game without much drawing, to buy a Province with Hovel in hand means you got to $8 using only 4 cards... it's much more likely that you can get to $8 with 5 cards than it is with just 4 cards.

I'm definitely not saying that I know for sure that buying an Estate on 5/2 isn't usually the wrong move... it very well might be. But you definitely can't assume that you'll have the chance to trash it on a Province buy later on. I remember this being discussed at great length in another thread, and I thought that there was still no consensus; with a lot of people making good arguments on both sides.

I think wero's logic is an abridged version of what he meant to say. The classic argument (from the old Hovel thread, which I remember as ending in a fairly strong consensus) is that at SOME point you will get to buy a Province or some other victory card and trash the Hovel without really going out of your way. It might not be on your first Province buy; that part is an oversimplification. But experience seems to show that it will usually happen well before the stage of the game when you would welcome a bonus Estate, which is the relevant question.

Also, and this should probably go in the article unless it's considered too obvious, mixed-type Victory cards are great with Hovel as they can be bought much earlier and more reliably than Province even on a Hovel turn. Island, for instance, almost doubles its effectiveness if it trashes a Hovel for free.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 02:55:03 pm by WheresMyElephant »
Logged

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2466
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2013, 02:44:09 pm »
+1

timchen, Davio: you're saying you expect the coolness and newness of them to wear off after about 100 games. But how many games have you played with them?
Zero! Or maybe a couple, but < 10.

My point of view is purely based on expectation and speculation, not experience.
That said, I am entitled to my point of view of course.

I will admit that the reason I was drawn into Dominion initially was because of its symmetry. I knew about MTG and in my head it was a sinking hole for money where the player with the best deck and the most money would always win. So Dominion was a fresh experience because it allowed equal access to everything.

Of course, there was still asymmetry in shuffling and a 5/2 vs 4/3 start can be pretty brutal or devastating, depending on the kingdom. I also didn't know about first turn advantage back then and didn't think much about the way the first player would get a Curse after the shuffle and the second would get it before the shuffle.

With new expansions, a lot of cards came out that messed with this equal opportunity. Tournament is a key example.
Now we have Dark Ages which has a lot of added asymmetry in Knights, Ruins and Shelters. For me this takes away from the original concept which I thought Dominion was all about. Even though perfect symmetry is a myth, I still thought it would be a core principal. And yes, you could say that there are still many kingdoms which don't have any of these cards and that's of course very true. Still, it's something which I care about.

Back to Shelters, the point I'm trying to make is that in my view they don't anything significant. I'm not disputing that they can sometimes offer funny little tactics, I just don't think that in the grand scheme of things it's such a significant change. Notice how I'm contradicting myself by first saying that these cards add to asymmetry and now claiming they don't make much of a difference. The asymmetry thing is more of a moral issue than a de facto one.

In conclusion I would have preferred another kingdom card instead of the Shelters, but I don't mind at all that they exist and don't really mind playing with them as well.

I don't agree with your assessment here. Shelters are nothing like Tournament. Each player gets the same Shelters. Also, the Ruins for the most part usually suck so one player getting a certain type of Ruins over another player usually has very little impact on the game. Yah, Ruined Village is the worst to get, but the effect of the other Ruins aren't so hot. The variance they add is very little and getting good or bad shuffle luck will have more of an impact on a game than what Ruins one player gets over another.

And, in regards to Knights. For the most part, I don't feel they add as much variance. They are often being destroyed if contested. I will admit the village Knight and the non-terminal Knight are the strongest and probably give the opponent a slight advantage, but I think how well you play a kingdom has more of an impact on the game than who gets what Knights. But, they do add a bit more variance than Ruins. I still think even with Knights (assuming both players are of similiar skill) whoever gets the better shuffle luck will stand a better chance at winning.
Logged

WheresMyElephant

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2013, 02:52:14 pm »
+1

One other thing I never see people mention is that sometimes Shelters are actually doing Remake and Upgrade a favor. Fool's Gold is an obvious example but not the only one.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 02:54:16 pm by WheresMyElephant »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2013, 03:25:49 pm »
0

  The player who saves his Hovel has just as much junk as you do until that first Province buy - then he has less.  Now, if you can think you can make a really quick three-pile ending before your opponent has a chance to pick up any Provinces, then Hoveling an Estate might be a good idea, as winning 1-0 is still winning.  But, how often will such situations arise?


This if faulty logic... it makes the assumption that you will always have Hovel in hand when you buy your first Province. That's not very likely, unless you are building a deck-drawing engine. In a game without much drawing, to buy a Province with Hovel in hand means you got to $8 using only 4 cards... it's much more likely that you can get to $8 with 5 cards than it is with just 4 cards.

I'm definitely not saying that I know for sure that buying an Estate on 5/2 isn't usually the wrong move... it very well might be. But you definitely can't assume that you'll have the chance to trash it on a Province buy later on. I remember this being discussed at great length in another thread, and I thought that there was still no consensus; with a lot of people making good arguments on both sides.

I think wero's logic is an abridged version of what he meant to say. The classic argument (from the old Hovel thread, which I remember as ending in a fairly strong consensus) is that at SOME point you will get to buy a Province or some other victory card and trash the Hovel without really going out of your way. It might not be on your first Province buy; that part is an oversimplification. But experience seems to show that it will usually happen well before the stage of the game when you would welcome a bonus Estate, which is the relevant question.

Also, and this should probably go in the article unless it's considered too obvious, mixed-type Victory cards are great with Hovel as they can be bought much earlier and more reliably than Province even on a Hovel turn. Island, for instance, almost doubles its effectiveness if it trashes a Hovel for free.

Maybe I missed the ending of that thread; or I could easily be just forgetting stuff.

As for Island; while it's certainly better to buy with Hovel in hand, it also seems like you would be less likely to want an Island in a game with Shelters instead of Estates. If you have no way to trash, then setting aside an Overgrown Estate or I guess Copper can be good, but not as good as setting aside Estates. Similar to how you might not open double-Amb in a Necropolis game, even though you have less risk of colliding.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2013, 03:57:12 pm »
0

One thing for shelters is that even though their effect might not be that big, it's an effect that can happen IN COMBINATION with other cards. If you add in one more kingdom card, it'll only show up some small fraction of the time and even then will have to replace a card.

Shelters can appear more often than any individual Kingdom card, so even if they have a smaller effect they'll have a smaller effect in more games, and they don't replace any other kingdom card.
Okay, this is a statement I hadn't previously considered and my opinion has been revised accordingly. :)

The example I put forward with Tournament and even Knights was because I had it in my mind that Dominion's principle was about making every card available for every player. Now if you get Sir Martin, I can't get him. If you get Followers, I can't.

Sure, we can both get Tournaments and we both get any random Knight or any random Ruin. It's just the fact that there were different cards in a pile was somewhat surprising to me.

Not that I lost a good night's sleep over it, rest assured guys, but it made me go "huh, so I guess [this non-existing principle] isn't even true for Dominion". I had some weird unfounded MTG worries.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2013, 08:23:44 pm »
0

As for Island; while it's certainly better to buy with Hovel in hand, it also seems like you would be less likely to want an Island in a game with Shelters instead of Estates. If you have no way to trash, then setting aside an Overgrown Estate or I guess Copper can be good, but not as good as setting aside Estates. Similar to how you might not open double-Amb in a Necropolis game, even though you have less risk of colliding.

On the other hand, buying Great Hall with Hovel in hand is roughly comparable to buying Island in an Estate game.

And similarly, of course, having Hovel in hand can help you make your decision between Gold and Harem.
Logged

WheresMyElephant

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2013, 11:47:00 am »
0

As for Island; while it's certainly better to buy with Hovel in hand, it also seems like you would be less likely to want an Island in a game with Shelters instead of Estates. If you have no way to trash, then setting aside an Overgrown Estate or I guess Copper can be good, but not as good as setting aside Estates. Similar to how you might not open double-Amb in a Necropolis game, even though you have less risk of colliding.

On the other hand, buying Great Hall with Hovel in hand is roughly comparable to buying Island in an Estate game.

And similarly, of course, having Hovel in hand can help you make your decision between Gold and Harem.
Fun calculation (which is probably obvious to many if they've considered the issue):

Harem-with-Hovel beats Gold, from a totally naive raw money density perspective, as long as your money density is greater than 1. It's like trashing a Copper: one less coin, one less card.
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +766
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2013, 12:56:11 pm »
0

Quote
Fun calculation (which is probably obvious to many if they've considered the issue):

Harem-with-Hovel beats Gold, from a totally naive raw money density perspective, as long as your money density is greater than 1. It's like trashing a Copper: one less coin, one less card.

Let's say you have X total cash and Y cards. Money density with a Gold is (X+3)/(Y+1). Money density with a Harem, sans a Hovel is (X+2)/Y. If money density = 1 then X = Y. (X + 3)/(X+1) != (X+2)/(X)

In reality, the choices are equivalent when X = Y - 2; which is actually a good bit sooner - as in turn 2 if you buy a silver (X = 9, Y = 11). The only time you should not take a Hovel trashing Harem over a Gold if you are just looking at money density is if you've been heavily cursed/ruined.

Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2013, 01:44:03 pm »
0

Quote
Fun calculation (which is probably obvious to many if they've considered the issue):

Harem-with-Hovel beats Gold, from a totally naive raw money density perspective, as long as your money density is greater than 1. It's like trashing a Copper: one less coin, one less card.

Let's say you have X total cash and Y cards. Money density with a Gold is (X+3)/(Y+1). Money density with a Harem, sans a Hovel is (X+2)/Y. If money density = 1 then X = Y. (X + 3)/(X+1) != (X+2)/(X)

In reality, the choices are equivalent when X = Y - 2; which is actually a good bit sooner - as in turn 2 if you buy a silver (X = 9, Y = 11). The only time you should not take a Hovel trashing Harem over a Gold if you are just looking at money density is if you've been heavily cursed/ruined.

You might still prefer the Gold if you have good sifting.
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +766
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2013, 02:25:45 pm »
0


You might still prefer the Gold if you have good sifting.

Oh absolutely, but sifting warps things heavily away from money density and towards money distribution. If you only care about money density, which is never quite the case in a real game, take the Harem.

If you have good sifting, or really want to hit the 7 or 9 price points early on a minority of hands, the gold might be worth it. I'm sure there are other cases out there, but from a simplistic point of view Harem + Hovel trash > Gold.
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Shelters
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2013, 03:19:37 pm »
0

In heavy cursing games/slogs is also when the 2VP from harem might make a bigger difference, if the game piles out on duchies/curses/something before people get to lots of provinces. So it's likely it's good to take harem+hoveltrash there over gold too...
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All
 

Page created in 0.152 seconds with 20 queries.