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werothegreat

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Shelters
« on: January 08, 2013, 12:41:14 am »
+5

My articles have gotten mixed reviews so far, but I figure I'll keep trying.  I feel I know more about this than Death Cart, anyway.

(in progress)


Shelters are the most drastic change made to Dominion by the Dark Ages expansion.  They were saved for last in the previews before release, after we saw the trash-gainer, the $1 cost card, the Ruins and their Looters, the upgrading cards, and Spoils.  While each of those do change the game in their own ways, ranging from the subtle to the not-so-subtle, they certainly more or less fit into the game space of Dominion as we know it - at the end of the day, they are simply Kingdom cards with cool, new effects.  But Shelters change how we play Dominion at a fundamental level.

As we've known since our first game, our deck in Dominion starts off with seven Coppers and three Estates - we're so used to this concept that we plan our entire strategies around knowing this.  We think about the risk of opening with two terminals, we consider whether trashing Estates is worth losing the points they give, we see the power of Ambassador and Baron as opening buys, and we rest easy knowing our first Silk Road will be worth at least 1 point.  Shelters throw all those concepts out the window, and give us some new ones.

First, they all cost $1, which means that you can no longer Remodel a starting card into a Smithy or Militia, and Bishop has been gypped 3 victory points, among other things.  Next, they all do something - you are now starting the game with cards that have text on them - get out those reading glasses.  Third, you no longer start off with 3 Victory points, so strategies that trash into engines no longer have to worry about a tie-breaking Estate.  Finally, only one of them is a Victory card, which has ramifications to be discussed in time.

Let's look at each Shelter one by one.

Necropolis is easily the most useful of the Shelters, and, at first glance, would seem to be the only reason why anyone would ever want to use Shelters.  Having a card give +2 Actions from the beginning of the game is immensely helpful.  I often catch myself disparaging at the lack of Village on a board with good terminals, before remembering several turns in that I have Necropolis.  It's not all that much of a help, but every little bit counts.  Necropolis is very useful on engine boards, as you already have a Village in your deck from the beginning, allowing you to start your engine sooner.

Hovel, at first glance, seems to be the least useful.  It is probably the closest we will ever come to a Dominion card that is just a Reaction and nothing else.  Being able to trash a card upon buying a Victory card is not completely new - Farmland introduced us to this concept in Hinterlands.  But Hovel allows you to do this when buying any Victory card, so long as the card you're trashing is Hovel.  So what is the point of this?  It allows that Province buy to be just a little bit less harmful to your carefully crafted engine, as instead of adding to your deck, it is replacing a card.  Perhaps the only time you'll want to save Hovel from trashing is in a Gardens game, where every extra card counts.  Now, some of you may be tempted to buy an Estate during a 5/2 open on a board with no good $2s.  This would be a mistake.  Hovel's power comes in using it on a Victory card you would have bought anyway.  If you trash Hovel to an opening Estate, your deck is not hurt, and you're 1 point ahead, but now that Province buy is once again adding to your deck instead of replacing a card, and that extra junk card may cost you the win.  The player who saves his Hovel has just as much junk as you do until that Province buy - then he has less.  Now, if you can think you can make a really quick three-pile ending before your opponent has a chance to pick up any Provinces, then Hoveling an Estate might be a good idea, as winning 1-0 is still winning.  But, how often will such situations arise?  More realistically, the edge case where you'd want to trash Hovel to an Estate on a 5/2 opening would be with Bishop on the board; since you'll be trashing the Hovel/Estate anyway, might as well replace the Hovel with Estate, since you'll get more points out of trashing it to Bishop.  Hovel is also good for Kingdom Victory card strategies (excepting Gardens) since you want those cards earlier than you do Provinces, so you can win the split.  Being able to trash away an otherwise useless starting card is very helpful.  Of course, if you have the opportunity to trash away Hovel before this, such as to a trasher of your own, or someone else's Bishop, you might as well.

Overgrown Estate has a cute little on-trash bonus, but not much else going for it.  It means that Scout is not completely useless in Shelters games, but it really doesn't do anything else.  A cute trick is Hermiting an Overgrown Estate from your discard to let you draw a card.  But +1 card one time is cute, and not much else more.  Perhaps the best use of Overgrown Estate is when your opponent plays a Bishop, so you can swap it out for a hopefully better card in your hand.

Now let's discuss the drawbacks of no longer having Estates in your deck.  Ambassador has no idea what to do with Shelters, since they're not from the Supply, turning him into a Copper giving card.  Baron is completely neutered, unless you have a desire to gain free Estates.  Hunting Party trips over them, Silk Road is now initially worth .5 points (rounded down), and Rebuild has a lot more extra work to do - funny, for a Kingdom card that comes packaged in the same set as Shelters.  Oh, and Remake and Upgrade can't give you Silvers anymore.

Now, what are the benefits?  Menagerie is now conceivable as an opener, and becomes much easier to trigger.  Fairgrounds becomes much easier to bring to 6 VP without buying Curses, and Harvest yields $4 much more consistently.  Fortune Teller reacts interestingly - it now effectively discards your opponent's entire deck in the beginning - this can prove very annoying if it prevents them from playing or lining up key cards - one IRL game I played had me frustrated for a few turns as a Fortune Teller prevented me from lining up my Urchin with my Marauder to get a Mercenary.  Death Cart has an extra Action to trash from the get-go.  And, as mentioned earlier, since everyone starts with 0 VP, you no longer have to worry if trashing your opening Estates will cost you the win.

So, in general, cards that interact with Victory cards are weakened in Shelters games, but most cards that deal with trashing, engines or hand/deck variety are bolstered.

Bear in mind, though, that Shelters are, according to the rules, only supposed to show up in majority Dark Ages games, just like Colony and Platinum are only supposed to show up in majority Prosperity games.  So Shelters, while game-changing, has not upset the entire Dominion paradigm, and you can choose not to play with them if you wish.  But personally, I feel that, other than making Baron a sad panda, Shelters make for a more interesting, enjoyable Dominion experience.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 09:48:30 pm by werothegreat »
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dondon151

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2013, 12:51:00 am »
+3

Swindlers trash opponent Shelters for free (unless Poor House is in the kingdom or other edge cases), Remodel is just a little less good as an opener (especially if you want $4s), and Salvager and Apprentice in the early game are significantly worse because OGE is the only decent target. Obviously TfB is just worse to varying degrees with Shelters, although Bishop doesn't mind it too much.

You should probably mention for Fairgrounds that Shelters allow for 8 VP Fairgrounds in any normal game without Ruins, Colony, Potion, Young Witch, Black Market, Tournament, etc.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 12:55:47 am by dondon151 »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2013, 02:35:56 am »
+1

Swindlers trash opponent Shelters for free (unless Poor House is in the kingdom or other edge cases), Remodel is just a little less good as an opener (especially if you want $4s), and Salvager and Apprentice in the early game are significantly worse because OGE is the only decent target. Obviously TfB is just worse to varying degrees with Shelters, although Bishop doesn't mind it too much.

You should probably mention for Fairgrounds that Shelters allow for 8 VP Fairgrounds in any normal game without Ruins, Colony, Potion, Young Witch, Black Market, Tournament, etc.

I just played a Sheltes game where I got Fairgrounds up to 8. For me, the biggest change is Ambassador. Forget Baron getting screwed. Ambassador is now almost always the wrong opening card except maybe as a deterrent in curse giving games. I do agree, OGE is not usually that great and even trashing it, often that 1 extra card doesn't do much for you.
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ftl

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2013, 03:03:50 am »
+2

Ambassador switches from being a premier trasher to being a sort of bad copper-trasher.

There are games in which you want a bad copper-trasher still, I'm sure. But it's far different.

Really, in most cases, the shelters will push things slightly towards engine-ness. All of them favor engine play; OGE gives you a minor on-trash benefit, Necropolis can save you from an early collision or so, hovel... well, hovel at least doesn't give the BM player a  free point like an estate would.

But it's a minor push. I'd think most games would play out roughly the same way regardless of the presence of shelters, plus a cute trick or two.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 03:26:20 am by ftl »
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timchen

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2013, 03:28:20 am »
+1

I tend to think the functions of the shelters are not terribly carefully thought out before publication. When they are still all new and shiny it is quite fine and interesting, but probably after ~100 games or so with them the functions of Hovel and overgrown estate kind of pale out.

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ftl

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2013, 03:32:49 am »
0

Their function is to enable a few cute tricks and otherwise not change very much, except give you a chance to do one cute trick per game or so. What's the problem with that?
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timchen

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2013, 04:04:09 am »
0

Well, sure it's not a game breaking problem or even any kind of serious problem, but if you think about the contrast between their colorful appearance and how often they (except the necropolis) are functionally identical to an estate...

One psychological thing is that their functionality only takes effect when they are removed from the deck. And that can only happen once per game. The rest of time when you draw a hand, you will just spend effort on looking at the colorful pictures, recognizing them, and then realizing that they will do nothing to you.
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Davio

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2013, 04:10:37 am »
+1

I tend to think the functions of the shelters are not terribly carefully thought out before publication. When they are still all new and shiny it is quite fine and interesting, but probably after ~100 games or so with them the functions of Hovel and overgrown estate kind of pale out.
I agree with this sentiment.

Sure, there are all kinds of tricks that they enable or disable you to do, but again, in a majority of kingdoms, they will be pretty similar to Estates in the way they feel or play. The availability of Necropolis wouldn't sway me to open double terminal if it wasn't a good plan to begin with. I mean, the chances of drawing exactly Necro+Term1+Term2 are pretty slim. And Hovel wouldn't want to make me buy a Duchy sooner than I'd normally would.

But of course they can't be too powerful, otherwise they would make the game even more swingy than opening 5/2 vs 4/3 already does. So they're kind of a novelty if nothing else.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 04:13:29 am by Davio »
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Donald X.

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2013, 04:29:45 am »
+5

I tend to think the functions of the shelters are not terribly carefully thought out before publication. When they are still all new and shiny it is quite fine and interesting, but probably after ~100 games or so with them the functions of Hovel and overgrown estate kind of pale out.
I remain satisfied with them after 100+ games with them! Perhaps you just want something different from them than I did.
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ftl

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2013, 04:44:14 am »
0

in a majority of kingdoms, they will be pretty similar to Estates in the way they feel or play.

Well yeah. They replace estates. They play pretty much like them except for some bonus cute trucks.
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ipofanes

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2013, 04:53:58 am »
0

The player who saves his Hovel has just as much junk as you do until that first Province buy - then he has less.

You would have to have that Hovel in hand when you gain your first Province to do that. As Hovel doesn't really contribute much towards that first Province, chances are Hovel is not in your hand.

I think if I had to burn $2 and a buy, and a Hovel sits in my hand, I would by that Estate. Maybe not in Turn 1/2.
 
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ftl

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2013, 05:00:09 am »
0

If you're building an engine, chances are that to buy your first province you've drawn a lot of your deck, including the hovel. You can buy your first Province without junking your engine at all.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 05:02:54 am by ftl »
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ipofanes

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 05:02:13 am »
0

That's fair enough, for some reason I omitted to mention engines as an exception.
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ftl

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 05:04:33 am »
0

I guess in big money-ish you'd want to buy it earlier since it'll be harder to get in the right hand... but in big money-ish, buying silver is probably going to be better most of the time. And are you really going to draw a mid-game $2 ?
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ipofanes

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 05:09:02 am »
0

I guess in big money-ish you'd want to buy it earlier since it'll be harder to get in the right hand... but in big money-ish, buying silver is probably going to be better most of the time. And are you really going to draw a mid-game $2 ?

In the greening stage, or with BM + Margrave or Woodcutter. WRT buying Silver: of course, everything else yould mean to buy Great Hall over Silver in Big Money. It would have to be $2, not $3, to burn. I am talking about this incidental buy you possibly wouldn't make without Hovel in hand, not, some long-term strategy.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 05:11:34 am by ipofanes »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2013, 05:47:55 am »
0

Personally, I think Hovel is underestimated from reading some of your posts. It doesn't give an immediate benefit, but it still gives a benefit, and personally, I do feel Necropolis is pretty game changing at times. Being able to add a couple more terminals on a board with no +Actions can make the game feel very different.

Anyway, as the saying goes, depends on the board.

Also, the only really good reason I can see to trash your Hovel for an estate is either for Rebuild or Silk Road. On a two, I never buy estate to trash Hovel. That's usually a pretty silly thing to do.
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Davio

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2013, 05:54:02 am »
0

Well, the increased cost of Estate and the 1 VP it provides could be nice for tiebreaker situations.

If you don't have anything else to buy, you're just replacing a worthless card with a bit less worthless card.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2013, 06:30:22 am »
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I think that Necropolis is generally a bigger boon in engines games, letting you start out ahead by a village.  I'm rather skeptical of buying more terminals than usual on a village-less board;  it just doesn't seem like it would line up often enough.  It's nice in games where you do overload on terminals, like workshop/gardens, but this is a case where you'd pile on the workshops regardless.
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Davio

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2013, 06:42:28 am »
0

I think that Necropolis is generally a bigger boon in engines games, letting you start out ahead by a village.  I'm rather skeptical of buying more terminals than usual on a village-less board;  it just doesn't seem like it would line up often enough.  It's nice in games where you do overload on terminals, like workshop/gardens, but this is a case where you'd pile on the workshops regardless.
Well, that's kind of my point. If you're going to go with an engine, sure it's nice to have Necropolis. But if you would start with Estates, you would often just go for the engine anyway.

It's not like Necropolis will ever be a major tipping point defining your strategy and it shouldn't, it would make uneven starts even worse.

To me Shelters are an unnecessary novelty. Some people may like them and the variety they provide and if you are one of them, no problem man, enjoy them, play with them every game. It's just that instead of 18 Shelters there could also have been another fun card in there.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2013, 07:41:43 am »
0

timchen, Davio: you're saying you expect the coolness and newness of them to wear off after about 100 games. But how many games have you played with them?

Davio

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2013, 08:20:07 am »
0

timchen, Davio: you're saying you expect the coolness and newness of them to wear off after about 100 games. But how many games have you played with them?
Zero! Or maybe a couple, but < 10.

My point of view is purely based on expectation and speculation, not experience.
That said, I am entitled to my point of view of course.

I will admit that the reason I was drawn into Dominion initially was because of its symmetry. I knew about MTG and in my head it was a sinking hole for money where the player with the best deck and the most money would always win. So Dominion was a fresh experience because it allowed equal access to everything.

Of course, there was still asymmetry in shuffling and a 5/2 vs 4/3 start can be pretty brutal or devastating, depending on the kingdom. I also didn't know about first turn advantage back then and didn't think much about the way the first player would get a Curse after the shuffle and the second would get it before the shuffle.

With new expansions, a lot of cards came out that messed with this equal opportunity. Tournament is a key example.
Now we have Dark Ages which has a lot of added asymmetry in Knights, Ruins and Shelters. For me this takes away from the original concept which I thought Dominion was all about. Even though perfect symmetry is a myth, I still thought it would be a core principal. And yes, you could say that there are still many kingdoms which don't have any of these cards and that's of course very true. Still, it's something which I care about.

Back to Shelters, the point I'm trying to make is that in my view they don't anything significant. I'm not disputing that they can sometimes offer funny little tactics, I just don't think that in the grand scheme of things it's such a significant change. Notice how I'm contradicting myself by first saying that these cards add to asymmetry and now claiming they don't make much of a difference. The asymmetry thing is more of a moral issue than a de facto one.

In conclusion I would have preferred another kingdom card instead of the Shelters, but I don't mind at all that they exist and don't really mind playing with them as well.
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ipofanes

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2013, 08:20:50 am »
0

Well, the increased cost of Estate and the 1 VP it provides could be nice for tiebreaker situations.


Which means kingdoms without +buy?
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Re: Shelters
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2013, 09:00:55 am »
+1

The shelters don't behave much differently on many boards, but then a lot of kingdom cards are dead space on most boards.  But sometimes they're not dead cards, and that is often the sign of an interesting game.  Library, for instance, is usually nothing special, but sometimes a key card that impacts the strategy.  Shelters seem rather similar to me.  They are not Colony/Platinum.  But man, there are a LOT of kingdom cards these days.  I'm OK with passing on one to let Shelters exist.
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Davio

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Re: Shelters
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2013, 09:10:13 am »
0

The shelters don't behave much differently on many boards, but then a lot of kingdom cards are dead space on most boards.  But sometimes they're not dead cards, and that is often the sign of an interesting game.  Library, for instance, is usually nothing special, but sometimes a key card that impacts the strategy.  Shelters seem rather similar to me.  They are not Colony/Platinum.  But man, there are a LOT of kingdom cards these days.  I'm OK with passing on one to let Shelters exist.
Well, I'd rather have Shelters than another Scout, so, that's that at least. :)
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Re: Shelters
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2013, 09:28:08 am »
+1

The interesting thing about Necropolis is (while giving +2 actions) it actually disincentives opening double terminal.  Why?  Think about the terminals you normally open with.  Swindler (worse), Ambassador (worse), Baron (worse), etc.   Sure you can open Woodcutter / Navigator, but you don't want to.  I suppose it makes Black Market / Black Market viable on certain boards, and helps some Chapel openings, but there are very few double terminals I think I'd want.
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