Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All

Author Topic: Dominion Academy, game #1  (Read 16343 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2099
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2013, 05:13:32 pm »
0

I'm with Stef on the 2 Mines vs BM camp. You want to be Mining a lot, and at most 1 Mine per shuffle (and later per turn) is not going to do it. There's nothing else you want at $5, so why no get a second Mine?
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3657
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2013, 05:26:42 pm »
0

I'm with Stef on the 2 Mines vs BM camp. You want to be Mining a lot, and at most 1 Mine per shuffle (and later per turn) is not going to do it. There's nothing else you want at $5, so why no get a second Mine?

Well the main thing for me is spare actions. I really want a number of courtyards since they only net 1 card each, and it takes time to amass enough villages to play those and the mine(s). Also, in the early game, you already have 1 CY and a mine so you don't want to over terminal, even if CY sort of protects against that.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2099
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2013, 05:59:54 pm »
0

I'm with Stef on the 2 Mines vs BM camp. You want to be Mining a lot, and at most 1 Mine per shuffle (and later per turn) is not going to do it. There's nothing else you want at $5, so why no get a second Mine?

Well the main thing for me is spare actions. I really want a number of courtyards since they only net 1 card each, and it takes time to amass enough villages to play those and the mine(s). Also, in the early game, you already have 1 CY and a mine so you don't want to over terminal, even if CY sort of protects against that.

Well if you have 2 Mines, you don't really need to be playing a lot of CYs early on. And then later on you have plenty of villages, so you're fine.
Logged

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1689
  • Respect: +4303
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2013, 08:18:15 pm »
+1

I've been playing several solitaire games with this kingdom and it looks like the engine can drain Fairgrounds in 17-19 turns pretty consistently. A 5/2 opening is really good here. My best results have come when I haven't opened Silver. Courtyard/Courtyard and Farming Village/Courtyard both get to $5 reasonably well. Just get one Mine and try and cycle around a lot, an early Scheme is nice to play Mine in back to back turns. I was trying not to buy any extra treasure and just use three silvers from Mine to get the first Grand Market. This seems to work reasonably well and keeps the number of dead cards in your deck to a minimum.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2850
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2013, 09:52:01 pm »
0

I must be really bad at Courtyard-BM, or just really unlucky, but I don't think that it can beat an engine here...
Logged

Gamecmdr

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2013, 09:50:34 pm »
0

I have lurked for a long time (I read all the happy new years posts before anyone told me happy new years) but I finally made an account to tell you how awesome this is. thank you! And I have to agree with you and WanderingWinder that BM courtyard with that draw should definitely win as long as you play for 8 provinces.

I wonder if you should have mentioned that if you are playing BM and they play engine, if the opponent mistakenly gets the piles too low you can try to 3 pile instead of province.
Logged

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1572
  • Respect: +4407
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2013, 09:49:53 am »
+3

Thanks to everyone for the enthusiastic replies. I'm glad so many people liked this format and learned something because of it.
Those responses will get me to write up an episode #2 someday for sure.

And... I learned something myself too. I seem to have picked a kingdom where it's really hard to decide whether to go engine or BigMoney. That itself was a very good thing. In fact, my own opinion has shifted from leaning towards BigMoney to engine after reading these responses (sorry WW ;)), but still only by a very small margin. Fortunately the conclusion isn't near as important as the argumentation in the learning process. I guess I was a bit overcompensating for my natural desire to go engine every board.

And even though I may want to play engine on this board the next time I see it, I'd still advice 99% of the players not to, including myself it wasn't for the extensive analysis of the past days. It's very easy to slightly misplay this engine, and as soon as you do you set yourself up to be three-piled. Also I think some players testing this set single-player and finding significantly better results for the engine may have underestimated the danger / impossibility of running piles low. Getting too many Ironworks, buying even a single Province, not balancing the villages-courtyards out, getting the first Mine too late, going overenthusiastic about the schemes... so many ways to get it wrong. Playing BigMoney-X near-optimal the first time you see it is much more doable.

Finally, Robz, I'm sorry reading your response. I didn't want to embarrass you at all, and I hope it makes you feel a bit better if I say this happens a lot to me. My opponent starts out with a money-plan, which is somewhere between good and great. Then he sees me building an engine, switches and loses for sure in stead of taking his chance with the money. Without really realizing it, that's probably one of the reasons I tend to over-value engines.

Ah. And I learned how to spell Academy ;). Weird that I got that one wrong, because it's "Academie" in Dutch, same e.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4371
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2013, 01:53:54 pm »
0

I *still* would like to test this... games play different against an opponent than they do solitaire....

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4371
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2013, 04:03:21 pm »
+2

Well, just played 3 with HME... he took 3-2 with an engine, including some futzing around by both of us figuring out exactly what we're doing. I felt I got DREADFUL luck, particularly in the fourth game (I forgot to grab logs on 3 and 4). I wasn't able to grab a courtyard/gold best case second shuffle a single time (and this actually happens fairly often - every single time courtyard is in hand turn 3) and only got courtyard and gold one time. Generally I fell into the rhythm of getting one GM at some point, one scheme, and one other card (usually farming village, sometimes this should be duchy), and then going fairly aggressively after fairgrounds on the contest after ~5 provinces. It doesn't hurt the efforts for provinces all that much.

Engine player needs to be REAL concerned about three pile endings. GMs were running of course (maybe he should leave one?), and courtyards were usually at least close, and that leaves farming villages pretty low, as well as fairgrounds being a trouble spot of course.
He also has to be careful to get his fairgrounds up to 6 points. He isn't getting province until the end, woodcutter is pretty late, he isn't getting duchy, cellar comes in in reasonable time, and... very often all the copper was gone and he has to buy another. And he has to make sure he has a mining village left at the end. All while watching three piles. It can be done, but it's a tightrope walk.
I think the engine can be played better, probably by getting a little more draw and some more schemes early on, and I really think only one mine is necessary, but you know, I'm not sure, I haven't played that side. It's not trivial, in any case.

Here are the three logs I do have, and I am still down for more science:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/09/game-20130109-121511-7c2c1dd2.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/09/game-20130109-122404-eee56631.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/09/game-20130109-124730-eb378bd0.html

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2099
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2013, 04:21:49 pm »
0

The first game I try Ironworks opening, and it fails terri-badly, not getting a Mine forever. I don't think 3 piles are actually that dangerous if you leave even a few cards. I still want all the GMs I can get, but leave a few Farming Villages. There's Mining Villages if you still need more +actions. One of the games (I forget which one) I have way too few Courtyards for a long time. Probably 4-5 is good, then you just want Cellars when you start adding green. Schemes are important, but I'm not quite sure about the timings. Still, I never really felt afraid of a 3-pile ending, and the last game, I probably would have won with a better draw (read: another village) on the last turn. Probably another Scheme or Cellar would have helped with that. (Thinking about it, maybe Scheme/Cellar are more important than getting any Mining Villages.) Or just a little better luck. I think it's fair to say that WW's luck in the last game was overall pretty good despite poor luck at the start. All Provinces and a Fairgrounds in 20 turns is fast.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4371
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2013, 04:37:20 pm »
0

The first game I try Ironworks opening, and it fails terri-badly, not getting a Mine forever. I don't think 3 piles are actually that dangerous if you leave even a few cards. I still want all the GMs I can get, but leave a few Farming Villages. There's Mining Villages if you still need more +actions. One of the games (I forget which one) I have way too few Courtyards for a long time. Probably 4-5 is good, then you just want Cellars when you start adding green. Schemes are important, but I'm not quite sure about the timings. Still, I never really felt afraid of a 3-pile ending, and the last game, I probably would have won with a better draw (read: another village) on the last turn. Probably another Scheme or Cellar would have helped with that. (Thinking about it, maybe Scheme/Cellar are more important than getting any Mining Villages.) Or just a little better luck. I think it's fair to say that WW's luck in the last game was overall pretty good despite poor luck at the start. All Provinces and a Fairgrounds in 20 turns is fast.
It's a little fast, but not that much really.

greatexpectations

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1096
  • Respect: +1063
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2013, 04:47:55 pm »
0

21-22 on my first several attempts solitairing (and without grand market). Picking up ~3 points in other green along the way in many cases. Probably you can tighten it up a turn or two with practice.

It's a little fast, but not that much really.

by your own admission that is at least an 1-2 turns, which i think is a pretty serious change. the longer the game is the more lopsided the engine approach is going to be. even shaving off a lucky turn or two will increase the win rate of the BM player drastically.
Logged
momomoto: ...I looked at the tableau and went "Mountebank? That's for jerks."
rrenaud: Jerks win.

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2099
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2013, 04:54:35 pm »
+1

It's not obscene luck, but I think the engine should be able to close out in 20 turns more often than the money deck can. As I said, with another village, I I have a decent chance of winning on turn 19 anyway. I think the way to go is probably all but ignore MV. Say shoot for 2 Mines, 4-5 CYs, 7-8 villages (including 1 MV just for variety), all GMs you can get, then Schemes and Cellars.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4371
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2013, 05:07:09 pm »
0

21-22 on my first several attempts solitairing (and without grand market). Picking up ~3 points in other green along the way in many cases. Probably you can tighten it up a turn or two with practice.

It's a little fast, but not that much really.

by your own admission that is at least an 1-2 turns, which i think is a pretty serious change. the longer the game is the more lopsided the engine approach is going to be. even shaving off a lucky turn or two will increase the win rate of the BM player drastically.
Yeah, I was able to tighten it up nearly a turn with practice. And that's without incorporating any cards other than CY/money/green. In fairness, they don't do that much for you, but it's to maybe 20-21, depending on how you green it can be a little off that. So good luck but not great.

I'm playing some with jonts right now and it's very clear this is too slow if money stays put and doesn't adjust. However, I have some tricks up my sleeve....

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4371
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2013, 05:42:57 pm »
+4

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/09/game-20130109-140150-1d71c1e7.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/09/game-20130109-141402-d936e864.html

In the second game, both of us needed ironworks sooner; well, I needed one at all. He complains, really I am playing an engine here. And, against money or close to pure money, I expect the engine probably does win something like 80% of the time. There are  a few concerns with three piles, or if it draws poorly, or if the money deck draws extremely well... but generally it will be a 1.5-2.5ish turns too fast. Anyway, I'm only sort of playing an engine here - I don't get that many villages, I don't get all that much draw, I never get mine (this is probably stubbornness more than anything, though really terminals are a bit tight; certainly I don't like 2 mines). The main thing is that I go for GMs. I go for LOTS of GMs. But I do it through getting some golds up quick, and then I have schemes to let the GM train roll through. Probably I get pretty darn good luck there. But if I do well enough on the GMs, then I have more straight cash for a while, and dead draws are not so much a problem with courtyard - I balloon out to a lead by greening really just a little before more engine-y guy is ready to, and I have better cash. And then I look for three piles. Hmm, I guess this is an engine, just sort of how you want to play an engine mirror - win the key split, and play a little more money-like than you would against money.

Incidentally how I play there probably gets crushed by big money - you really have to be adaptable, and if it looks like they are going money, engine really hard. It is interesting, you want to be just more big-money-like than your opponent, up until a point; when they go too far that way, you want to be MUCH more engine-y.

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3657
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2013, 06:00:08 pm »
+7

So after my sets with WW, I'm sure that pure-ish BM is not the way to go. And I do contend that the game WW won he is playing an engine. Anyway, the board has to play somewhat differently between engine vs BM and engine mirror.

The few games we played where I went engine and WW went more standard BM, I won without too many issues. There was no real threat of piling out. In these games I focused more on deck cycling and playing mine to increase money density. I did find I liked 2 mines better than 1. I didn't get my first GM until turn 11 or 12, but it didnt matter. By turn 16-17 I was cycling most of my deck and I had two huge turns to drain fairgrounds and some provinces.

However, this all goes to crap in the mirror. The game WW won, he goes for a more engine like game, but starts focusing on getting GM's faster while forgoing grabbing the smaller engine components. I think I had some luck issues with getting my first GM, but overall, it's more likely that in the mirror, you need to focus more on the GM split. By the time I had good deck cycling, he was playing his GM's and draining piles while getting enough points to put all the pressure on me.

So in conclusion, I say start withe intentions of getting an engine going. And you have to be very reactionary. If your opponent goes BM, focus on building up and then start piledriving GMs when you build up. If you are in the mirror, work on getting GM's faster to win that split.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4371
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2013, 06:30:43 pm »
0

So after my sets with WW, I'm sure that pure-ish BM is not the way to go. And I do contend that the game WW won he is playing an engine. Anyway, the board has to play somewhat differently between engine vs BM and engine mirror.

The few games we played where I went engine and WW went more standard BM, I won without too many issues. There was no real threat of piling out. In these games I focused more on deck cycling and playing mine to increase money density. I did find I liked 2 mines better than 1. I didn't get my first GM until turn 11 or 12, but it didnt matter. By turn 16-17 I was cycling most of my deck and I had two huge turns to drain fairgrounds and some provinces.

However, this all goes to crap in the mirror. The game WW won, he goes for a more engine like game, but starts focusing on getting GM's faster while forgoing grabbing the smaller engine components. I think I had some luck issues with getting my first GM, but overall, it's more likely that in the mirror, you need to focus more on the GM split. By the time I had good deck cycling, he was playing his GM's and draining piles while getting enough points to put all the pressure on me.

So in conclusion, I say start withe intentions of getting an engine going. And you have to be very reactionary. If your opponent goes BM, focus on building up and then start piledriving GMs when you build up. If you are in the mirror, work on getting GM's faster to win that split.
I don't disagree, though I would add that in the mirror, you also want to prioritize getting some points a little earlier - using this as a weapon with pile endings.

timchen

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 704
  • Shuffle iT Username: allfail
  • Respect: +233
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2013, 03:25:59 am »
0

Very informative! Probably one of the first deeper strategy/tactics I have ever seen.

In short: full engine with enough components>BM>half baked engine. but half baked engine can force the oppoent to play a half baked engine. 
Logged

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3598
  • Respect: +6055
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2013, 05:38:26 pm »
+2

There's been a real spate of great articles lately.  I'm going to put this up on Monday, and then possibly another on Wednesday.
Logged

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1572
  • Respect: +4407
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2013, 07:36:18 pm »
0

There's been a real spate of great articles lately.  I'm going to put this up on Monday, and then possibly another on Wednesday.

Great, thanks.

I didn't change the article (except for the silly spelling) because people that read it here can read the discussion all by themselves. And about the advice on BM over engine... as I said before I think that's still a pretty sound advice, so I don't mind leaving it like this. But maybe you can correct the thing Rabid pointed out...

If you get $6 for a Gold on turn 5 again you're on fire, and in retrospect you made the right choice on t4. If you don't get to $6, you will get to $4 for sure so still have your options open.
->
At this point your deck contains only treasuries, so by putting back the Silver you'll get at least $6 on turn 5 for another Gold.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8171
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9601
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2013, 08:51:55 pm »
0

There's been a real spate of great articles lately.  I'm going to put this up on Monday, and then possibly another on Wednesday.

Are any of mine good enough to make the page, or do they still need work?

And -Stef-: by "destruction," do you mean "trashing"?
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3598
  • Respect: +6055
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2013, 09:05:01 pm »
+1

There's been a real spate of great articles lately.  I'm going to put this up on Monday, and then possibly another on Wednesday.

Are any of mine good enough to make the page, or do they still need work?

And -Stef-: by "destruction," do you mean "trashing"?

They're good :-)  WW's deck types is up next week and then yours.
Logged

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1054
  • Respect: +856
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2013, 10:49:50 am »
+7

I played around with the simulator a bit and found some cool stuff to support Stefs findings for this board. I had to modify the code so the sim would Mine Coppers first and put back Estates with Courtyard if it has a Farming Village in hand. This means you can't recreate my findings with the current published version of the sim, so you'll just have to trust me.

I tested the Grand Market engine vs Courtyard BM. I modified the BM deck so it's better equipped for the long game which means it gets a few Golds before Provinces and Duchies only if there's one Province left. I kept the BM deck simple: no Grand Markets or Villages.

-Stef suggested 2 Mines for the engine, but the sim prefers 1
-Stef suggested 1 Ironworks which the sim also likes best
-The Big Money deck doesn't want Ironworks ever (not even in the long game)
-The best 4/3 opening is Ironworks/Courtyard which does a few % better than Ironworks/Silver and Silver/Courtyard
-The engine beats the BM deck 55-45 if it opens $4/$3, but crushes 80-20 if it opens $5/$2 (Mine/Courtyard) so Stef was right that it's very close between the Big Money deck and the engine, but the engine is better if played well
-The game lasts 20-21 turns on average as opposed to 15 turns for the Big Money Courtyard mirror
-After the engine has a Mine it will not buy treasure anymore, preferring Farming Village, Courtyard and Schemes even if it has $6 to spend (if the engine player buys Golds its win rate will drop to 33%)
-the engine will want to get 9 Grand Markets and only then start greening agressively
-the engine doesn't want to buy Provinces until it can secure a win
Logged

loppo

  • 2014 Austrian Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 176
  • Respect: +194
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2013, 12:49:59 pm »
0

what were your findings for the BM-courtyard side? How many Golds/coins should the BM player buy before greening?
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4371
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2013, 01:08:31 pm »
0

I played around with the simulator a bit and found some cool stuff to support Stefs findings for this board. I had to modify the code so the sim would Mine Coppers first and put back Estates with Courtyard if it has a Farming Village in hand. This means you can't recreate my findings with the current published version of the sim, so you'll just have to trust me.

I tested the Grand Market engine vs Courtyard BM. I modified the BM deck so it's better equipped for the long game which means it gets a few Golds before Provinces and Duchies only if there's one Province left. I kept the BM deck simple: no Grand Markets or Villages.

-Stef suggested 2 Mines for the engine, but the sim prefers 1
-Stef suggested 1 Ironworks which the sim also likes best
-The Big Money deck doesn't want Ironworks ever (not even in the long game)
-The best 4/3 opening is Ironworks/Courtyard which does a few % better than Ironworks/Silver and Silver/Courtyard
-The engine beats the BM deck 55-45 if it opens $4/$3, but crushes 80-20 if it opens $5/$2 (Mine/Courtyard) so Stef was right that it's very close between the Big Money deck and the engine, but the engine is better if played well
-The game lasts 20-21 turns on average as opposed to 15 turns for the Big Money Courtyard mirror
-After the engine has a Mine it will not buy treasure anymore, preferring Farming Village, Courtyard and Schemes even if it has $6 to spend (if the engine player buys Golds its win rate will drop to 33%)
-the engine will want to get 9 Grand Markets and only then start greening agressively
-the engine doesn't want to buy Provinces until it can secure a win
I can tell you that your sim is playing, well, not so great from the engine side. Not because I've done so much better, but because I've played jonts who had 20-21 turns licked by 2-3 turns quite consistently.
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All
 

Page created in 0.162 seconds with 22 queries.