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Author Topic: Dominion Academy, game #1  (Read 21050 times)

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-Stef-

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Dominion Academy, game #1
« on: January 07, 2013, 12:06:27 pm »
+51

Welcome to the Dominion Academy, something new I'm trying out. The idea is that you look at the kingdom for a while and try to come up with an answer to the first question. Then compare to my answer and go on with the next question. How extensive your own answer is, is all up to you. My hope is to bring this beyond the actual game and more about the set.

Without further ado, this is the kingdom for game#1:
$6:  Grand Market, Fairgrounds
$5:  Mine
$4:  Farming Village, Mining Village, Ironworks
$3:  Scheme, Woodcutter
$2:  Courtyard, Cellar
Looking at these cards, two possible strategies come to mind: engine or BigMoney.

Why would you play BigMoney and not engine?
1. Courtyard. Courtyard-BM is a very strong BM variant.
2. The engine player may have some fancy cards, but nothing that hurts you, no attacks or even pseudo-attacks.
3. No possibility to get rid of the initial 10 cards.
4. Courtyard is the only card increasing handsize, netting only +1 card.


Why would you play engine and not BigMoney?
1. Mine into Grand Market. It will take a while, but eventually this will have incredible power. This time is provided by:
2. Fairgrounds. Fairgrounds implies you have time until they pick up province #8 in stead of #5, which should be about 7 extra turns. Really huge.
3. Ironworks allows you to pick up components easily
4. Scheme. Scheme is very helpful in 'village/smithy' variant draw decks (cheaper), opposed to 'lab/lab' variants (more expensive but reliable all by itself).
5. Farming Village. Courtyard is lousy for draw in engines, but farming village compensates a little bit (put back your estate and continue with the village)
6. Two piles of villages. You'll need lots of villages, but because you have two piles you won't have to get a pile dangerously low.
7. Cellar. Handle with care, because this card can easily destroy you if you overbuy it. A single Cellar can be strong though.


Which strategy do you expect to be better on this board?
Courtyard-BM. It hurts a bit to say this, but the engine is probably too weak. No destruction and no attacks is really bad.

When playing Courtyard-BigMoney, are any other cards in the kingdom of interest? How does this depend on your opponents strategy?
Yes. A single Ironworks is at the very least interesting. In the mirror it's doubtful because the game will be very fast and getting early golds is important. The game against the engine will be longer and unless your start is very lucky it will be worth it for sure. If you draw it together with a Courtyard you can either gain another Courtyard or place the Ironworks back. Gaining a Silver still nets you $1. By the time you need to buy out the last (or two) provinces, maybe even a mining village is worth it for the sacrificing option.

When playing the engine, how many Ironworks do you want? How many Mines? Does it depend on the opponents strategy?
At the very least you want one of both, and you want them asap. In the mirror match I think I want a second Ironworks and stick with the single Mine. This game will be much shorter, piles will run out anyway, and I'd better make sure I have the majority share. In the matchup against BigMoney, I think I prefer only one Ironworks and a second Mine. My objective is quite the opposite: I need to prevent a 3-pile at all costs, and as long as I'm not too greedy myself I can do that. Instead I need to prepare for taking a lot of points in the endgame. If I can get to Grand Markets a little sooner this way, they will be at least as effective in picking up components as multiple Ironworks.

So... the game starts and your opponent just bought a Silver for $3. You expect him to go BigMoney. What strategy do you choose? And what do you open with?
No. No No No. You don't have to choose now at all. I'd open Silver/Courtyard both in BigMoney and the engine. In BigMoney this should be obvious, getting $6 is your first priority and an early Ironworks doesn't help that at all. But even in the engine I want the extra Silver. Because draw is so bad here, and I can't destroy any cards, it will take a long time before I start drawing my deck anyway. Until then I'll just have to do with some power cards. So getting a Mine quick is super important. Praying for $5 without buying any silvers is really asking for trouble. Plus delaying the choice on the strategy is very helpful. I may really want to play an engine, but secretly I also know courtyard-BM is probably better. If my turn 3 draws are much better then my opponents, I can still switch back to grabbing the gold and play Courtyard-BigMoney mirror. A year ago I would have opened Ironworks/Courtyard on boards like this for sure, and I can still respect that, but now I'm more into the metagame.

You went first, opened Silver/Courtyard planning to go BigMoney, and get the perfect draw: $6 on turn 3 without even using the Courtyard. That's a gold for sure. On turn 4 you play the Courtyard and draw all 3 Estates, 3 Coppers and your Silver. What do you put back? What do you buy?
You put the silver back and buy another Courtyard. Don't buy Silver or Ironworks now. If you get $6 for a Gold on turn 5 again you're on fire, and in retrospect you made the right choice on t4. If you don't get to $6, you will get to $4 for sure so still have your options open.

You started out playing Courtyard-BigMoney, and notices your opponent going engine. How do you respond? If you hit $6 or $7 without coppers, do you get a Grand Market? Do you contest Fairgrounds?
If your opponent goes engine, you should realize you need to buy 8 provinces in stead of the usual 4 (5). So you continue getting golds quite a bit longer then usual. Maybe pick up 5-6 golds first, and I guess a Grand Market won't hurt in this stage. Buying Fairgrounds or Duchies is pointless (in every but the literal meaning). The only thing you need to worry about is ending the game before the engine kicks into fifth gear, and your only hope to do so is depleting the Provinces. If you're in time you win, if you're not you lose.

In the actual game... my opponent got the perfect draw I described above. That also robbed (pun intended) me of all plans of playing Courtyard-BM myself. By turn 5 it was clear I went engine but "unfortunately" he didn't adapt properly. He bought a Province on turn 5 in stead of a second Gold, an Ironworks on turn 6 in stead of a third Gold, and a Mining Village on turn 8 in stead of a fifth Gold. After that he didn't focus on the Provinces, and by the time I decided it was time to green I was only 0-3 provinces behind. That didn't take long to overcome. It requires a bit of discipline to follow the much simpler 'lots of Golds into lots of Provinces' plan, ignoring all the shiny engine parts. But that's the kind of discipline that can make a great BigMoney player, and on these early draws I'm convinced it would have been winning.


Questions for you:
  • Is it fun to answer the questions yourself first? Or do you just skip that and should I drop the spoiler tags? Should I post the kingdom first, more like an annotated game?
  • Did you learn anything?
  • Do you agree with my analysis of the game? I know I'm pretty high on the leaderboard, but don't let that scare you. I'm convinced I still make many many mistakes and have a lot to learn.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 09:50:10 am by -Stef- »
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philosophyguy

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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2013, 12:21:19 pm »
0

Lots of fun, and very appreciated! Keep the spoiler tags for sure.
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2013, 12:27:49 pm »
+3

This was one of my games against Stef! I played so truly dreadfully, embarrassingly bad here. I panicked and mixed strategies. Bah.
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2013, 12:33:27 pm »
0

Thank you very much for this !

Quote
Is it fun to answer the questions yourself first? Or do you just skip that and should I drop the spoiler tags? Should I post the kingdom first, more like an annotated game?
I don't think it is necessary to post the kingdom first, and I answer the questions myself first.
Quote
Did you learn anything?
A lot.
Quote
Do you agree with my analysis of the game? I know I'm pretty high on the leaderboard, but don't let that scare you. I'm convinced I still make many many mistakes and have a lot to learn.
I'm very unconvinced BM is the best option. Ironworks and scheme can be very helpful for the engine player...
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2013, 12:44:29 pm »
0

Questions for you:
  • Is it fun to answer the questions yourself first? Or do you just skip that and should I drop the spoiler tags? Should I post the kingdom first, more like an annotated game?
  • Did you learn anything?
  • Do you agree with my analysis of the game? I know I'm pretty high on the leaderboard, but don't let that scare you. I'm convinced I still make many many mistakes and have a lot to learn.

Yes. Leave the spoilers tags, please.  It was educational for me to compose my answers without seeing your answers.

Yes.

I don't have enough experience to disagree with any confidence, but I don't see anything to disagree with either.  Your point about gaining enough gold in a BM deck before going green is one I had to learn the hard way, and now I know that you may have to pass up the first few $8 and keep buying gold if you think you need to get more than 5 provinces.
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 12:59:55 pm »
+1

Excellent post, I really liked the spoilered answers :)

"You went first, opened Silver/Courtyard planning to go BigMoney, and get the perfect draw: $6 on turn 3 without even using the Courtyard. That's a gold for sure. On turn 4 you play the Courtyard and draw all 3 Estates, 3 Coppers and your Silver. What do you put back? What do you buy?"

Is Mine an option here?
The courtyard triggered a reshuffle of (SCCCCG).
If you put back Estate you still have 80% chance of $6 on T5.
I would think Mine to be quite good in the BM deck if it needs to buy out all 8 Prov.

If you want to try the kingdom here it is for easy copy / paste:
Code: [Select]
Grand Market, Fairgrounds, Mine, Farming Village, Mining Village, Ironworks, Scheme, Woodcutter, Courtyard, Cellar
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 01:18:33 pm by Rabid »
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 01:05:11 pm »
0

Loved the format. Also found it helpful.
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dondon151

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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2013, 01:14:13 pm »
0

I must be really bad at Courtyard-BM, or just really unlucky, but I don't think that it can beat an engine here...
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 01:18:33 pm »
+1

I played this game vs. Stef. I initially went Courtyard-BM, but I soon regretted it and tried to backpedal into the engine. Of course, that's definitely the worst of the three things to do.

But I did it because I quickly changed my mind and decided the engine was better, and I think I would go for the engine to begin with here. I do expect it beats BM-Courtyard. The presence of Fairgrounds is, I think, the deciding factor. Absent Fairgrounds, BM-COurtayrd for sure.

But anyway, my play is really the poster child for taking a middle-of-the-road approach that utterly fails.
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 01:38:12 pm »
+1

1. My intuition is BM-Courtyard is good enough on this board to beat engine.

2. However, I would tend to think that getting all 8 provinces is too hard for BM-CY. Lots of gold early of course, but wouldn't the goal be robbing away at least half of the points asap? Namely I mean, probably after my 3rd province I'll just grab a Fairground with $6. Shouldn't be hard to get it to worth 4.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 01:46:06 pm »
+1

1. My intuition is BM-Courtyard is good enough on this board to beat engine.

2. However, I would tend to think that getting all 8 provinces is too hard for BM-CY. Lots of gold early of course, but wouldn't the goal be robbing away at least half of the points asap? Namely I mean, probably after my 3rd province I'll just grab a Fairground with $6. Shouldn't be hard to get it to worth 4.

If BM Courtyard player contests Fairgrounds, then they lose all control over the game. At least racing for 8 Provinces puts the engine player on a clock. Now the engine player can take more Provinces, still get their Fairgrounds up to 6 points easily, and pick up however many Duchies (if any) they need to make up the score difference. Courtyard BM won't reach half the points on this board for a long long time.

I'd definitely favor the engine here, but it would be easier to say if we knew the average number of turns to get 8 Provinces using BM Courtyard.
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2013, 01:56:39 pm »
+3

Excellent article! I agree with virtually all of your points. I like the format - you have a blue "BM" in one of the spoiler-ed paragraphs, which I don't like, but other than that, it's quite good. Yes, it's different from the annotated games, and I like those as well. I might like these better. Well, there's room for variety anyway.

The big thing here is that you stress playing differently depending on what your opponent does. This is huge. This is really big, one of the biggest things I see lacking in people's play - they tend to pick something, but their heads down and just go with it. But very often you need to be adaptable. So I very much like that you talk about this, and how you talk about it.

As far as disagreements... I think, in the engine I don't think I would ever want the second mine. Maybe a second ironworks in a mirror... maybe. I want lots of farming villages, lot of courtyards, a few schemes, and really I can play mine enough to turn copper into silver without getting a second mine - it will be not-so-useful very quickly, and I need to do other things. Two ironworks, well, I think not, because in the mirror getting some points quicker is going to be more important - helps you control three pile endings. Anyway, I am not so sure here, and this is really minor - probably you want and see what your draws give you, and what your opponent does, anyway.
But the slightly more important thing is the BM. Well, I don't think this is actually a disagreement, but I REALLY don't want ironworks in a mirror, or really anything other than courtyards, green, and treasure. Like I said, I think you more or less agree here, I would just have it said more explicitly.

Now the big thing though, is playing money against the engine. Saying you don't want fairgrounds or duchies ever is an exaggeration. There are a couple options you have, and I'm not sure which is better. First, is getting some extra cards, a la a scheme (which doesn't hurt you really), a mining village, maybe an ironworks, a grand market if a good opportunity arises (actually against the engine, you probably want to try to maneuver for a GM or two in any case). If you can get up to ten uniques, definitely contest those fairgrounds after you are at maybe 5 provinces. They are 4 points to you, and your engining opponent is counting on them for 6. The other route you can take is more straight money, which I think is how I would lean. In this case, you really want to hold off until late, but there are a few cases where you buy cheaper green anyway. First and foremost, if you are going to need the points to get back the lead, or stop engine player from ending with a win, well you are in bad shape but you must get the duchy or whatever at this point. But, after 6 or maybe seven provinces, certainly if you expect this is to be your last shuffle, you can start getting cheaper ones. And maybe you go fairgrounds over duchy anyway - it is a one point difference for you, but probably much more for your opponent. And you can always try to back-door them up to more points. The engine is going to clog pretty badly. Part of the point is, there are three ways money player can win. First, and most straightforward, is piledriving the provinces. Second is running out a third pile while still in the lead - the threat of doing this can slow the engine opponent down in some cases, particularly if they've spent a lot of time building up and have kingdom piles low. Third is getting half the VP - well, ensuring that opponent can't get more than your total score, including fairgrounds bumps. This isn't so likely, with the huge amount of points that are out, BUT if you force engine guy to start in on duchies with the threat of low piles, maybe it comes in.
In general though, unless you are going for the 4 point fairgrounds via ironworks and such in the first place, you want to head for probably at LEAST 6 provinces before you look elsewhere.


Finally, everyone who thinks the engine wins easily here (which is seemingly almost everyone except -Stef-), I will gladly take challenges.

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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2013, 02:09:30 pm »
0

Yes, it is fun to answer the questions first, please keep the spoilers. I learned some things about Dominion strategy in general and many things about my own playstyle, and how it could be improved.

I don't disagree with anything, but there's one thing that I don't understand: Why would you pass a Grand Market when you have $6-7 without Copper and go for a Gold instead? Most likely, it will draw you a Copper which is as good as a Gold $-wise, but in addition it also gives a +Buy and marginal deck cycling and can hit Silvers or Golds, too. And it certainly doesn't hurt that the engine player will have one less Grand Market available. Is the risk of drawing an Estate too high, or does it have something to do with Courtyard being a terminal, or something else I have missed?
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Davio

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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2013, 02:12:51 pm »
0

I don't think the engine wins easily, nor do I think the engine loses easily. I think they're competitive and a lot depends on draws and even if you are both playing solitaire, it's quite a reactionary board.

I wonder, how many turns does it take for CY-BM to drain the Provinces, getting the first one as late as possible?
That may set a good benchmark for the engine to aim at.

I still like the engine's chances, mainly because of Fairgrounds.
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2013, 02:13:33 pm »
0

1. My intuition is BM-Courtyard is good enough on this board to beat engine.

2. However, I would tend to think that getting all 8 provinces is too hard for BM-CY. Lots of gold early of course, but wouldn't the goal be robbing away at least half of the points asap? Namely I mean, probably after my 3rd province I'll just grab a Fairground with $6. Shouldn't be hard to get it to worth 4.

If BM Courtyard player contests Fairgrounds, then they lose all control over the game. At least racing for 8 Provinces puts the engine player on a clock. Now the engine player can take more Provinces, still get their Fairgrounds up to 6 points easily, and pick up however many Duchies (if any) they need to make up the score difference. Courtyard BM won't reach half the points on this board for a long long time.

I'd definitely favor the engine here, but it would be easier to say if we knew the average number of turns to get 8 Provinces using BM Courtyard.
21-22 on my first several attempts solitairing (and without grand market). Picking up ~3 points in other green along the way in many cases. Probably you can tighten it up a turn or two with practice.

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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2013, 02:16:38 pm »
0

Engine doesn't clog even with 8 Fairgrounds and a handful of other VP cards. Scheme really helps; the Courtyard-FV combo lets you go through some green, and Cellar does the rest of the work.

I'm not sure if it's really bad luck or something but I've been averaging at least 20 turns to 8 Provinces with Courtyard-BM, if not more, while prioritizing Gold over lower VP, and 20 turns is more than enough for the engine to work its magic. I doubt that even detouring for a couple of Fairgrounds would make a big difference.
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2013, 02:17:23 pm »
+1

Quote
You went first, opened Silver/Courtyard planning to go BigMoney, and get the perfect draw: $6 on turn 3 without even using the Courtyard. That's a gold for sure. On turn 4 you play the Courtyard and draw all 3 Estates, 3 Coppers and your Silver. What do you put back? What do you buy?
your deck is: 7C, 3E, silver, CY, gold.  In hand/play are 3E, 3C, CY, Silver, and you just reshuffled.  That means your deck is 4C and Gold.  Whatever card X you put back, your next turn will either be G+3C+X (80%) or 4C+X (20%).  4C+anything but silver is comparitively awful and you don't get much by holding on to the silver, so don't do it.  Put the Silver back and buy a gold whether you get $8 or $6.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 02:18:52 pm by flies »
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2013, 02:17:57 pm »
0

"You went first, opened Silver/Courtyard planning to go BigMoney, and get the perfect draw: $6 on turn 3 without even using the Courtyard. That's a gold for sure. On turn 4 you play the Courtyard and draw all 3 Estates, 3 Coppers and your Silver. What do you put back? What do you buy?"

Is Mine an option here?
The courtyard triggered a reshuffle of (SCCCCG).
If you put back Estate you still have 80% chance of $6 on T5.
I would think Mine to be quite good in the BM deck if it needs to buy out all 8 Prov.
Problem is you don't know your opponent is going engine yet.

1. My intuition is BM-Courtyard is good enough on this board to beat engine.

2. However, I would tend to think that getting all 8 provinces is too hard for BM-CY. Lots of gold early of course, but wouldn't the goal be robbing away at least half of the points asap? Namely I mean, probably after my 3rd province I'll just grab a Fairground with $6. Shouldn't be hard to get it to worth 4.
I thought about this too, and it works against a fair amount of engines gunning for Fairgrounds, but this one seems too strong. Even if you get 5 Province + 4-5 Fairgrounds or something, the engine player can still win by getting all the Duchies and the rest of the Provinces. You probably don't want Fairgrounds until the point you'd want Duchies (last time through the deck), and by then the engine player probably has them all anyway...

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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2013, 02:26:44 pm »
0

Again, I would love to test this against someone....

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2013, 02:33:47 pm »
+1

fixed "academy"
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2013, 04:38:19 pm »
0

Wonderful format, Stef.  More!
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2013, 04:49:54 pm »
0

fixed "academy"

I'm not the only one with spelling mistakes!*  :D

*see my Count article

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2013, 04:54:58 pm »
+1

I ran this a few times, and I think the engine is going to be slightly faster on average. I was draining fairgrounds with a couple extra provinces by turn 20 on average. CY/BM seemed to take about a turn longer on average.

My plan was basically open CY/Silver and get a mine and 2 IW ASAP. Then focus on mining copper to silver (usually silver to gold is the right move, but not here) so I can get in on the grand markets. IW to first get a number of farming villages and CY's and then I start pounding the schemes so I can add some consistency. Mid game start favoring Mining Villages which you'll use to trash on your final 2 turns.

EDIT: And I'll science this with someone, but it has to be later. I have to finish up some work now.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 04:56:11 pm by jonts26 »
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2013, 05:05:18 pm »
0

Liked it. Keep it up.

I liked this because I haven't seen it at first:
"Courtyard is lousy for draw in engines, but farming village compensates a little bit (put back your estate and continue with the village)"

The Ironworks in the BM game is interesting, but I'm not really convinced. Is getting extra Silvers against the engine that important to risk the collision?

I agree with 1-2 Ironworks and with 1 Mine, but I'm not sure if you have time enough to buy 2 Mines against Big Money because you can't gain it with Ironworks, you really have to buy them.

The opening bit is also interesting. I think I would open Courtyard/Ironworks when going for the engine. Getting all those engine pieces is important and I disagree that you need the silver early on because the only thing you want that isn't gainable with Ironworks is Mine and after you have the Mine you get the money either way, but I might be wrong about that.

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2013, 05:05:52 pm »
+1

I fully approve of this post/thread/thing!

I got all the answers wrong, but that only makes it more useful! Keep the format as well
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2013, 05:13:32 pm »
0

I'm with Stef on the 2 Mines vs BM camp. You want to be Mining a lot, and at most 1 Mine per shuffle (and later per turn) is not going to do it. There's nothing else you want at $5, so why no get a second Mine?
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2013, 05:26:42 pm »
0

I'm with Stef on the 2 Mines vs BM camp. You want to be Mining a lot, and at most 1 Mine per shuffle (and later per turn) is not going to do it. There's nothing else you want at $5, so why no get a second Mine?

Well the main thing for me is spare actions. I really want a number of courtyards since they only net 1 card each, and it takes time to amass enough villages to play those and the mine(s). Also, in the early game, you already have 1 CY and a mine so you don't want to over terminal, even if CY sort of protects against that.
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2013, 05:59:54 pm »
0

I'm with Stef on the 2 Mines vs BM camp. You want to be Mining a lot, and at most 1 Mine per shuffle (and later per turn) is not going to do it. There's nothing else you want at $5, so why no get a second Mine?

Well the main thing for me is spare actions. I really want a number of courtyards since they only net 1 card each, and it takes time to amass enough villages to play those and the mine(s). Also, in the early game, you already have 1 CY and a mine so you don't want to over terminal, even if CY sort of protects against that.

Well if you have 2 Mines, you don't really need to be playing a lot of CYs early on. And then later on you have plenty of villages, so you're fine.
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2013, 08:18:15 pm »
+1

I've been playing several solitaire games with this kingdom and it looks like the engine can drain Fairgrounds in 17-19 turns pretty consistently. A 5/2 opening is really good here. My best results have come when I haven't opened Silver. Courtyard/Courtyard and Farming Village/Courtyard both get to $5 reasonably well. Just get one Mine and try and cycle around a lot, an early Scheme is nice to play Mine in back to back turns. I was trying not to buy any extra treasure and just use three silvers from Mine to get the first Grand Market. This seems to work reasonably well and keeps the number of dead cards in your deck to a minimum.
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Re: Dominion Acadamy, game #1
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2013, 09:52:01 pm »
0

I must be really bad at Courtyard-BM, or just really unlucky, but I don't think that it can beat an engine here...
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2013, 09:50:34 pm »
0

I have lurked for a long time (I read all the happy new years posts before anyone told me happy new years) but I finally made an account to tell you how awesome this is. thank you! And I have to agree with you and WanderingWinder that BM courtyard with that draw should definitely win as long as you play for 8 provinces.

I wonder if you should have mentioned that if you are playing BM and they play engine, if the opponent mistakenly gets the piles too low you can try to 3 pile instead of province.
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2013, 09:49:53 am »
+3

Thanks to everyone for the enthusiastic replies. I'm glad so many people liked this format and learned something because of it.
Those responses will get me to write up an episode #2 someday for sure.

And... I learned something myself too. I seem to have picked a kingdom where it's really hard to decide whether to go engine or BigMoney. That itself was a very good thing. In fact, my own opinion has shifted from leaning towards BigMoney to engine after reading these responses (sorry WW ;)), but still only by a very small margin. Fortunately the conclusion isn't near as important as the argumentation in the learning process. I guess I was a bit overcompensating for my natural desire to go engine every board.

And even though I may want to play engine on this board the next time I see it, I'd still advice 99% of the players not to, including myself it wasn't for the extensive analysis of the past days. It's very easy to slightly misplay this engine, and as soon as you do you set yourself up to be three-piled. Also I think some players testing this set single-player and finding significantly better results for the engine may have underestimated the danger / impossibility of running piles low. Getting too many Ironworks, buying even a single Province, not balancing the villages-courtyards out, getting the first Mine too late, going overenthusiastic about the schemes... so many ways to get it wrong. Playing BigMoney-X near-optimal the first time you see it is much more doable.

Finally, Robz, I'm sorry reading your response. I didn't want to embarrass you at all, and I hope it makes you feel a bit better if I say this happens a lot to me. My opponent starts out with a money-plan, which is somewhere between good and great. Then he sees me building an engine, switches and loses for sure in stead of taking his chance with the money. Without really realizing it, that's probably one of the reasons I tend to over-value engines.

Ah. And I learned how to spell Academy ;). Weird that I got that one wrong, because it's "Academie" in Dutch, same e.
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2013, 01:53:54 pm »
0

I *still* would like to test this... games play different against an opponent than they do solitaire....

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2013, 04:03:21 pm »
+2

Well, just played 3 with HME... he took 3-2 with an engine, including some futzing around by both of us figuring out exactly what we're doing. I felt I got DREADFUL luck, particularly in the fourth game (I forgot to grab logs on 3 and 4). I wasn't able to grab a courtyard/gold best case second shuffle a single time (and this actually happens fairly often - every single time courtyard is in hand turn 3) and only got courtyard and gold one time. Generally I fell into the rhythm of getting one GM at some point, one scheme, and one other card (usually farming village, sometimes this should be duchy), and then going fairly aggressively after fairgrounds on the contest after ~5 provinces. It doesn't hurt the efforts for provinces all that much.

Engine player needs to be REAL concerned about three pile endings. GMs were running of course (maybe he should leave one?), and courtyards were usually at least close, and that leaves farming villages pretty low, as well as fairgrounds being a trouble spot of course.
He also has to be careful to get his fairgrounds up to 6 points. He isn't getting province until the end, woodcutter is pretty late, he isn't getting duchy, cellar comes in in reasonable time, and... very often all the copper was gone and he has to buy another. And he has to make sure he has a mining village left at the end. All while watching three piles. It can be done, but it's a tightrope walk.
I think the engine can be played better, probably by getting a little more draw and some more schemes early on, and I really think only one mine is necessary, but you know, I'm not sure, I haven't played that side. It's not trivial, in any case.

Here are the three logs I do have, and I am still down for more science:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/09/game-20130109-121511-7c2c1dd2.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/09/game-20130109-122404-eee56631.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/09/game-20130109-124730-eb378bd0.html

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2013, 04:21:49 pm »
0

The first game I try Ironworks opening, and it fails terri-badly, not getting a Mine forever. I don't think 3 piles are actually that dangerous if you leave even a few cards. I still want all the GMs I can get, but leave a few Farming Villages. There's Mining Villages if you still need more +actions. One of the games (I forget which one) I have way too few Courtyards for a long time. Probably 4-5 is good, then you just want Cellars when you start adding green. Schemes are important, but I'm not quite sure about the timings. Still, I never really felt afraid of a 3-pile ending, and the last game, I probably would have won with a better draw (read: another village) on the last turn. Probably another Scheme or Cellar would have helped with that. (Thinking about it, maybe Scheme/Cellar are more important than getting any Mining Villages.) Or just a little better luck. I think it's fair to say that WW's luck in the last game was overall pretty good despite poor luck at the start. All Provinces and a Fairgrounds in 20 turns is fast.
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2013, 04:37:20 pm »
0

The first game I try Ironworks opening, and it fails terri-badly, not getting a Mine forever. I don't think 3 piles are actually that dangerous if you leave even a few cards. I still want all the GMs I can get, but leave a few Farming Villages. There's Mining Villages if you still need more +actions. One of the games (I forget which one) I have way too few Courtyards for a long time. Probably 4-5 is good, then you just want Cellars when you start adding green. Schemes are important, but I'm not quite sure about the timings. Still, I never really felt afraid of a 3-pile ending, and the last game, I probably would have won with a better draw (read: another village) on the last turn. Probably another Scheme or Cellar would have helped with that. (Thinking about it, maybe Scheme/Cellar are more important than getting any Mining Villages.) Or just a little better luck. I think it's fair to say that WW's luck in the last game was overall pretty good despite poor luck at the start. All Provinces and a Fairgrounds in 20 turns is fast.
It's a little fast, but not that much really.

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2013, 04:47:55 pm »
0

21-22 on my first several attempts solitairing (and without grand market). Picking up ~3 points in other green along the way in many cases. Probably you can tighten it up a turn or two with practice.

It's a little fast, but not that much really.

by your own admission that is at least an 1-2 turns, which i think is a pretty serious change. the longer the game is the more lopsided the engine approach is going to be. even shaving off a lucky turn or two will increase the win rate of the BM player drastically.
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2013, 04:54:35 pm »
+1

It's not obscene luck, but I think the engine should be able to close out in 20 turns more often than the money deck can. As I said, with another village, I I have a decent chance of winning on turn 19 anyway. I think the way to go is probably all but ignore MV. Say shoot for 2 Mines, 4-5 CYs, 7-8 villages (including 1 MV just for variety), all GMs you can get, then Schemes and Cellars.
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2013, 05:07:09 pm »
0

21-22 on my first several attempts solitairing (and without grand market). Picking up ~3 points in other green along the way in many cases. Probably you can tighten it up a turn or two with practice.

It's a little fast, but not that much really.

by your own admission that is at least an 1-2 turns, which i think is a pretty serious change. the longer the game is the more lopsided the engine approach is going to be. even shaving off a lucky turn or two will increase the win rate of the BM player drastically.
Yeah, I was able to tighten it up nearly a turn with practice. And that's without incorporating any cards other than CY/money/green. In fairness, they don't do that much for you, but it's to maybe 20-21, depending on how you green it can be a little off that. So good luck but not great.

I'm playing some with jonts right now and it's very clear this is too slow if money stays put and doesn't adjust. However, I have some tricks up my sleeve....

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2013, 05:42:57 pm »
+4

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/09/game-20130109-140150-1d71c1e7.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/09/game-20130109-141402-d936e864.html

In the second game, both of us needed ironworks sooner; well, I needed one at all. He complains, really I am playing an engine here. And, against money or close to pure money, I expect the engine probably does win something like 80% of the time. There are  a few concerns with three piles, or if it draws poorly, or if the money deck draws extremely well... but generally it will be a 1.5-2.5ish turns too fast. Anyway, I'm only sort of playing an engine here - I don't get that many villages, I don't get all that much draw, I never get mine (this is probably stubbornness more than anything, though really terminals are a bit tight; certainly I don't like 2 mines). The main thing is that I go for GMs. I go for LOTS of GMs. But I do it through getting some golds up quick, and then I have schemes to let the GM train roll through. Probably I get pretty darn good luck there. But if I do well enough on the GMs, then I have more straight cash for a while, and dead draws are not so much a problem with courtyard - I balloon out to a lead by greening really just a little before more engine-y guy is ready to, and I have better cash. And then I look for three piles. Hmm, I guess this is an engine, just sort of how you want to play an engine mirror - win the key split, and play a little more money-like than you would against money.

Incidentally how I play there probably gets crushed by big money - you really have to be adaptable, and if it looks like they are going money, engine really hard. It is interesting, you want to be just more big-money-like than your opponent, up until a point; when they go too far that way, you want to be MUCH more engine-y.

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2013, 06:00:08 pm »
+7

So after my sets with WW, I'm sure that pure-ish BM is not the way to go. And I do contend that the game WW won he is playing an engine. Anyway, the board has to play somewhat differently between engine vs BM and engine mirror.

The few games we played where I went engine and WW went more standard BM, I won without too many issues. There was no real threat of piling out. In these games I focused more on deck cycling and playing mine to increase money density. I did find I liked 2 mines better than 1. I didn't get my first GM until turn 11 or 12, but it didnt matter. By turn 16-17 I was cycling most of my deck and I had two huge turns to drain fairgrounds and some provinces.

However, this all goes to crap in the mirror. The game WW won, he goes for a more engine like game, but starts focusing on getting GM's faster while forgoing grabbing the smaller engine components. I think I had some luck issues with getting my first GM, but overall, it's more likely that in the mirror, you need to focus more on the GM split. By the time I had good deck cycling, he was playing his GM's and draining piles while getting enough points to put all the pressure on me.

So in conclusion, I say start withe intentions of getting an engine going. And you have to be very reactionary. If your opponent goes BM, focus on building up and then start piledriving GMs when you build up. If you are in the mirror, work on getting GM's faster to win that split.
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2013, 06:30:43 pm »
0

So after my sets with WW, I'm sure that pure-ish BM is not the way to go. And I do contend that the game WW won he is playing an engine. Anyway, the board has to play somewhat differently between engine vs BM and engine mirror.

The few games we played where I went engine and WW went more standard BM, I won without too many issues. There was no real threat of piling out. In these games I focused more on deck cycling and playing mine to increase money density. I did find I liked 2 mines better than 1. I didn't get my first GM until turn 11 or 12, but it didnt matter. By turn 16-17 I was cycling most of my deck and I had two huge turns to drain fairgrounds and some provinces.

However, this all goes to crap in the mirror. The game WW won, he goes for a more engine like game, but starts focusing on getting GM's faster while forgoing grabbing the smaller engine components. I think I had some luck issues with getting my first GM, but overall, it's more likely that in the mirror, you need to focus more on the GM split. By the time I had good deck cycling, he was playing his GM's and draining piles while getting enough points to put all the pressure on me.

So in conclusion, I say start withe intentions of getting an engine going. And you have to be very reactionary. If your opponent goes BM, focus on building up and then start piledriving GMs when you build up. If you are in the mirror, work on getting GM's faster to win that split.
I don't disagree, though I would add that in the mirror, you also want to prioritize getting some points a little earlier - using this as a weapon with pile endings.

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2013, 03:25:59 am »
0

Very informative! Probably one of the first deeper strategy/tactics I have ever seen.

In short: full engine with enough components>BM>half baked engine. but half baked engine can force the oppoent to play a half baked engine. 
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2013, 05:38:26 pm »
+2

There's been a real spate of great articles lately.  I'm going to put this up on Monday, and then possibly another on Wednesday.
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2013, 07:36:18 pm »
0

There's been a real spate of great articles lately.  I'm going to put this up on Monday, and then possibly another on Wednesday.

Great, thanks.

I didn't change the article (except for the silly spelling) because people that read it here can read the discussion all by themselves. And about the advice on BM over engine... as I said before I think that's still a pretty sound advice, so I don't mind leaving it like this. But maybe you can correct the thing Rabid pointed out...

If you get $6 for a Gold on turn 5 again you're on fire, and in retrospect you made the right choice on t4. If you don't get to $6, you will get to $4 for sure so still have your options open.
->
At this point your deck contains only treasuries, so by putting back the Silver you'll get at least $6 on turn 5 for another Gold.
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2013, 08:51:55 pm »
0

There's been a real spate of great articles lately.  I'm going to put this up on Monday, and then possibly another on Wednesday.

Are any of mine good enough to make the page, or do they still need work?

And -Stef-: by "destruction," do you mean "trashing"?
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2013, 09:05:01 pm »
+1

There's been a real spate of great articles lately.  I'm going to put this up on Monday, and then possibly another on Wednesday.

Are any of mine good enough to make the page, or do they still need work?

And -Stef-: by "destruction," do you mean "trashing"?

They're good :-)  WW's deck types is up next week and then yours.
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2013, 10:49:50 am »
+7

I played around with the simulator a bit and found some cool stuff to support Stefs findings for this board. I had to modify the code so the sim would Mine Coppers first and put back Estates with Courtyard if it has a Farming Village in hand. This means you can't recreate my findings with the current published version of the sim, so you'll just have to trust me.

I tested the Grand Market engine vs Courtyard BM. I modified the BM deck so it's better equipped for the long game which means it gets a few Golds before Provinces and Duchies only if there's one Province left. I kept the BM deck simple: no Grand Markets or Villages.

-Stef suggested 2 Mines for the engine, but the sim prefers 1
-Stef suggested 1 Ironworks which the sim also likes best
-The Big Money deck doesn't want Ironworks ever (not even in the long game)
-The best 4/3 opening is Ironworks/Courtyard which does a few % better than Ironworks/Silver and Silver/Courtyard
-The engine beats the BM deck 55-45 if it opens $4/$3, but crushes 80-20 if it opens $5/$2 (Mine/Courtyard) so Stef was right that it's very close between the Big Money deck and the engine, but the engine is better if played well
-The game lasts 20-21 turns on average as opposed to 15 turns for the Big Money Courtyard mirror
-After the engine has a Mine it will not buy treasure anymore, preferring Farming Village, Courtyard and Schemes even if it has $6 to spend (if the engine player buys Golds its win rate will drop to 33%)
-the engine will want to get 9 Grand Markets and only then start greening agressively
-the engine doesn't want to buy Provinces until it can secure a win
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2013, 12:49:59 pm »
0

what were your findings for the BM-courtyard side? How many Golds/coins should the BM player buy before greening?
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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2013, 01:08:31 pm »
0

I played around with the simulator a bit and found some cool stuff to support Stefs findings for this board. I had to modify the code so the sim would Mine Coppers first and put back Estates with Courtyard if it has a Farming Village in hand. This means you can't recreate my findings with the current published version of the sim, so you'll just have to trust me.

I tested the Grand Market engine vs Courtyard BM. I modified the BM deck so it's better equipped for the long game which means it gets a few Golds before Provinces and Duchies only if there's one Province left. I kept the BM deck simple: no Grand Markets or Villages.

-Stef suggested 2 Mines for the engine, but the sim prefers 1
-Stef suggested 1 Ironworks which the sim also likes best
-The Big Money deck doesn't want Ironworks ever (not even in the long game)
-The best 4/3 opening is Ironworks/Courtyard which does a few % better than Ironworks/Silver and Silver/Courtyard
-The engine beats the BM deck 55-45 if it opens $4/$3, but crushes 80-20 if it opens $5/$2 (Mine/Courtyard) so Stef was right that it's very close between the Big Money deck and the engine, but the engine is better if played well
-The game lasts 20-21 turns on average as opposed to 15 turns for the Big Money Courtyard mirror
-After the engine has a Mine it will not buy treasure anymore, preferring Farming Village, Courtyard and Schemes even if it has $6 to spend (if the engine player buys Golds its win rate will drop to 33%)
-the engine will want to get 9 Grand Markets and only then start greening agressively
-the engine doesn't want to buy Provinces until it can secure a win
I can tell you that your sim is playing, well, not so great from the engine side. Not because I've done so much better, but because I've played jonts who had 20-21 turns licked by 2-3 turns quite consistently.

meandering mercury

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2013, 01:29:57 pm »
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I think the conventional wisdom is that the programmed engine will not be able to outplay a top-tier human engine builder like jonts. Although you can include some tricks like filtering over Estates with Courtyard, there will be other subtleties (reshuffle, etc) which are harder to code in.

On the other hand, I think it IS true that a programmed BM strategy will be able to simulate a reasonably good BM player (what the simulator lacks in decision making power, it can make up for by tuning the parameters a bit smarter). The fact that the programmed engine is able to beat the programmed BM is very suggestive to me. If you're talking engine versus engine-BM hybrid, well, that's a different story.

I still agree with Stef that for average players, even for top-tier players, BM is safer than engine just because engine is trickier to set up and requires much more skill to execute.

WW, in the two games you cited against jonts, one ended on piles and the other ended in 21 turns.
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jonts26

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2013, 01:42:36 pm »
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WW, in the two games you cited against jonts, one ended on piles and the other ended in 21 turns.

The two games he posted were ones where WW didn't go CY/BM. In a mirror, it's totally reasonable for piles to run. And in the second game, I think I tried a couple things which didn't work, or I got bad luck. Plus he was stealing my grand markets which really slow me down some. Anyway that was probably my slowest game of the like 7 we played. The uncontested engine can win in 18-19 turns usually no problem.

As for geronimoo's simulator, I'm wondering where you can make up an extra couple of turns. I found getting 4-5 schemes to be very helpful in ensuring consistency. Also, a cellar after 5 or so courtyards was helpful. So I feel the second Ironworks can be useful to pick up all of those extra components. Maybe you could give more details on the buy rules you employed and we can improve it some.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2013, 01:43:26 pm »
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WW, in the two games you cited against jonts, one ended on piles and the other ended in 21 turns.
Right, but in both those games I was playing hybrids, and that slowed him down. A LOT.

Geronimoo

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2013, 04:43:08 am »
+3

OK, so I tweaked the tactical decisions of the sim and now I get the engine to beat the BM deck 83-15 on a $4/$3 opening and 93-5 on a $5/$2 opening. The average number of turns has gone down to 19.5, which still seems a little high, but the engine will sometimes have bad turns (Courtyards clumped together) which drags the average speed down.

What still surprises me looking over the logs is that the engine will often spend turns 7-10 hugely overpaying for Courtyards and Farming Villages and that this is the correct way to play it because buying a Gold in those spots will decrease the win rate.

I wasn't able to fit in more than 1 Ironworks or 1 Mine and have the win rate go up.
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krs

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2013, 11:32:15 am »
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I have tried in the comments section but no reaction whatsoever. So here it goes:

I am curious if my findings are valid:

Shouldn’t you take into account the fact that you are going 1′st or second? Having 1 extra turn for engine is huge! (All the trial matches linked in forum could have gone either way. First player always won).

Secondly, starting hand is important! If you get 5-2 you have your perfect engine startup so you should go the engine way no matter what. (Or get a mine in “Big Money” and 1 Workers Village. First one helps you contest 1-2 Grand Markets and the other one helps you mine more and/or get some extra 2$ when badly needed => 18-19 turns 8 provinces).
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philosophyguy

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2013, 12:11:58 pm »
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OK, so I tweaked the tactical decisions of the sim

When you say that, do you mean that you add rules to the XML that address special cases, or do you do stuff behind the scenes? If the latter, would it be possible for you to write up a post demonstrating how you do that? I'm sure lots of us would like to make those kinds of tweaks (for instance, to test whether the Mountebank/Chapel turn 3 collision should chapel or attack) but I have no idea how to do that.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2013, 01:15:25 pm »
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You'll have to adjust the Java code to tweak tactical decisions. The biggest changes I made were adjustments of the "play priority number" and the "discard priority number" (can be found in the "DomCardName" enum):

https://github.com/Geronimoo/Geronimoo-s-Dominion-Simulator
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dondon151

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2013, 02:14:42 pm »
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Shouldn’t you take into account the fact that you are going 1′st or second? Having 1 extra turn for engine is huge! (All the trial matches linked in forum could have gone either way. First player always won).

First player advantage is always present, maybe a little moreso for an engine, but by itself, I don't think it's an indicator for either strategy.
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krs

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2013, 04:33:28 pm »
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What I want to say/ask is why being first /second is not a variable when making your strategy, if there are multiple close strategies like in this kingdom. To me (novice player) for this particular kingdom being first and starting with 5 Copper screams for engine.
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jonts26

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Re: Dominion Academy, game #1
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2013, 05:03:58 pm »
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What I want to say/ask is why being first /second is not a variable when making your strategy, if there are multiple close strategies like in this kingdom. To me (novice player) for this particular kingdom being first and starting with 5 Copper screams for engine.

I think very few kingdoms are going to change substantially depending on whether you get a 3/4 or 5/2 split, though it might alter tactical play fairly often. I see this kingdom and 3/4 also screams engine to me. But if you were convinced of a big money strategy being better, 5/2 still lets you open courtyard/silver so that doesn't even change the big money game.
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