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[ehunt]

one interesting phenomenon in Dominion is that cards that nobody buys can still have a strong influence on the game. On this board, it's clear that the goal is to king's court three bridges before your opponent does that. But how do you do it with IGG in the way? My own play is spoilered below (spoilered not because it is unexpected or clever but because I'm interested in first reactions.)


cards in supply: Adventurer, Bridge, Golem, Ill-Gotten Gains, Jack of All Trades, King's Court, Laboratory, Potion, Royal Seal, Vineyard, and Woodcutter



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here is my play. it takes me 15 turns to get to kc kc bridge bridge bridge, which is slower than what you would get solitaire, because of a jack of all trades that i used to preempt IGG. i only bought one IGG myself, which does not appear to have slowed my opponent at all. 

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/06/game-20130106-090114-95c2a64b.html

[DrFlux]

Well I happen to know the answer, but I'll leave others to guess first:

You need a Jack for 2 reasons: to deal with estates/curses, and to get economy up to what you need for KC, which allows you to use your $5's to buy laboratories instead of building up your economy.

and it brings up an interesting strategic point:

One Jack does not substantially dilute one's deck. Often people are afraid to use jack in an engine. However, if you are trashing an estate or a curse when you play it, it is not diluting your deck at all, rather it is just replacing a bad card with a better card.

[ehunt]

Well I happen to know the answer, but I'll leave others to guess first:

You need a Jack for 2 reasons: to deal with estates/curses, and to get economy up to what you need for KC, which allows you to use your $5's to buy laboratories instead of building up your economy.

and it brings up an interesting strategic point:

One Jack does not substantially dilute one's deck. Often people are afraid to use jack in an engine. However, if you are trashing an estate or a curse when you play it, it is not diluting your deck at all, rather it is just replacing a bad card with a better card.

interesting! i definitely agree with paragraph two. as for paragraph one, do you think you'd buy the jack on this board, even playing it solitaire? that is against my intuition, but it's hard to argue with your reasoning (and maybe it took me 15 turns because i was wasting a critical second shuffle buy on an IGG, not because of jack)

[dondon151]

My gut feeling is that without Jack, you'd be hard-pressed to hit $7 for a KC at all if your opponent dips into the IGGs.

[DrFlux]

Hmm... I'm not sure. Opening Bridge gives you a higher chance of getting a lucky early 7 for a KC. Also Jack CAN dilute your deck a little on turns you miss trashing an estate. And Jack is kind of a dead card once you have more than 5 cards from laboratories. My guess is that its somewhat of a wash.

Just played some test games, I think jack is just a little worse than bridge. I hit more than half the points on the board in 12 turns most games opening bridge, 13 or 14 on bad games. With Jack, its more like 13 or 14 typically, with an occasional lucky 12. But yes, the IGG definitely turns the tides in its favor.

I do think the IGG you bought was a distraction. Golem definitely was a distraction, as potion would keep you from KC WAY too often for my taste.

interesting! i definitely agree with paragraph two. as for paragraph one, do you think you'd buy the jack on this board, even playing it solitaire? that is against my intuition, but it's hard to argue with your reasoning (and maybe it took me 15 turns because i was wasting a critical second shuffle buy on an IGG, not because of jack)

[ehunt]

Hmm... I'm not sure. Opening Bridge gives you a higher chance of getting a lucky early 7 for a KC. Also Jack CAN dilute your deck a little on turns you miss trashing an estate. And Jack is kind of a dead card once you have more than 5 cards from laboratories. My guess is that its somewhat of a wash.

Just played some test games, I think jack is just a little worse than bridge. I hit more than half the points on the board in 12 turns most games opening bridge, 13 or 14 on bad games. With Jack, its more like 13 or 14 typically, with an occasional lucky 12. But yes, the IGG definitely turns the tides in its favor.

I do think the IGG you bought was a distraction. Golem definitely was a distraction, as potion would keep you from KC WAY too often for my taste.

interesting! i definitely agree with paragraph two. as for paragraph one, do you think you'd buy the jack on this board, even playing it solitaire? that is against my intuition, but it's hard to argue with your reasoning (and maybe it took me 15 turns because i was wasting a critical second shuffle buy on an IGG, not because of jack)

thanks! i've stopped spoilering since we're pretty far down in the thread by this point. this matches my instinct as well. i agree that in the specific game (and most king's courts/golem games) my opponent's potion was a mistake, maybe he was thinking golem counters the cursing somewhat.