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Author Topic: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! - Mafia Win Flawlessly  (Read 108897 times)

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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #675 on: February 06, 2013, 08:43:20 am »

Okay I'm sorry I exaggerated, sudgy does not have to been scum, I just find it highly unlikely that town had 3 town members on him and scum didnt push the lynch through, scum loves jumping on wagons created by town. If sudgy is scum however it would make sense that his partner would stay off the lynch and try and not let it go through.
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Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #676 on: February 06, 2013, 09:25:16 am »

@raerae,

1) my town read on robz comes from something I have only seen him do as town, I'm extremely unhappy revealing this but I will because it has been talked about enough that I am not confident using it in future games. When robz is town he has a scum hunting strategy where he makes a bad case followed by a vote, he then waits to see who will jump on the case, that will more often be scum jumping on the chance to lynch town. This is also why robz is mislynched as town often, people notice the bad case which ends up looking scummier than anything else. Also as town robz asks people there opinion often and overall plays reactive instead of proactive. His original posts of this game were exactly that.

2) my post referring to you is not trumped up, in fact I find you a bit scummy for how defensive you have been of my criticism but I think that's just you. All I have said is your reads were weaker than I expected and I was surprised about you being on robz the whole day, I just didn't realize you never moved your vote from him. Also if you care to I ask you to think back to ZMIX where I not just cast suspicion on you but found you somewhat scummy and took advantage of your snarky jokey play style(which I love btw) and pushed until you were mislynched. For the newbies I was scum in that game. This game I have found you somewhat scummy because I think you often have stronger stances than lets lynch the lurker, however I have always found others more scummy than you and would not vote for you with the current evidence.
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Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 1)
« Reply #677 on: February 06, 2013, 09:47:27 am »

A few very recent things have made me change my mind...

I noticed Robz888 wasn't voting for either of the first two.  This could be attributed to his lurkiness, maybe he didn't notice until too late.  And then when he saw mail-mi at L-1, he lynched him.  (This is all hypothetical, of course.)

Also, just saying "Yikes" seems scummy to me.  Maybe trying to make it seem like he's empathetic with the town.

Last, he instantly accused me when I just was trying to see who might want to kill Jimmmmm.  He saw something that seemed a bit scummy, and jumped for it.

From this, I'm going to Vote: Robz888


To the people who say I was jumping around with accusations: I mentioned liopoil and kooshie because that was just from the previous day.  Now I'm starting to think of robz/mcmc as a scumteam, for a few reasons:

1. They both had a bit of scumminess from their recent posts (I mentioned this already).
2. mcmc agreed with robz's vote just now.
3. mcmc said he had a town read on robz for reasons he couldn't explain.  But what if he doesn't have a reason? (as raerae mentioned)


Okay liopoil touched on this but I want to explain so that the newbies can fix it.
If you are defending yourself from a case made against you, you want to make sure you keep the post about why you are town, not why the people who accused you are scum. If you are makin a case on someone make sure you keep it about things they have done that are scummy.
In your posts above, you make a case on robz but then add that he is scummy because he found you scummy for bad reasons. The second post is a bit more what I'm talking about, you are defending the accusation that your jumping around, but instead you mainly mention why you find me an robz scummy, the two people voting for you. I noticed efhw do this once, finding people scummy because they find you scummy is horrible, if you actually find robz or I scummy make the case regardless of our voting for you.

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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #678 on: February 06, 2013, 09:50:40 am »

Lastly I want to point out I find sudgy scummy for the reasons I have explained about the wagon on him as well as how he acted on D1, I do not find him scummy for the reason robz gave.
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EFHW

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 1)
« Reply #679 on: February 06, 2013, 10:11:19 am »

...  instead you mainly mention why you find me an robz scummy, the two people voting for you. I noticed efhw do this once, finding people scummy because they find you scummy is horrible, if you actually find robz or I scummy make the case regardless of our voting for you.

Really?  When?
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 1)
« Reply #680 on: February 06, 2013, 10:24:36 am »

This was after I made a few points about you. While I understand that someone making a bad case or making a huge case out of something tiny is scummy, making me your highest scum read simply because you don't think my reads on you are correct is extremely scummy in itself.

mcmcsalot:  Been kind of hostile towards me, each time with logical flaws.  Like he's picking an obvious (LOL) townie to target, if you ask me!  My scummiest read.

You correct it almost immediately which is great and the reason I never mention it, as I said to sudgy I think this is largely a newbie thing and not that big a deal.

Clarification -- I was inaccurate when I said Robz had been more lurky than Kooshie, if lurky means more posts.  I looked back and in fact I voted for him because he hadn't voted yet.  A different kind of lurking - being there but standing back. AND, in fact that was mostly an RVS vote, of both kinds, trying to get a reaction. 

So, I'll reduce my scum read on mcmc, since I was misleading in the answer I gave back then.

You later make a post saying you find me towny, again this change from scummiest to towny would be construed as scum flip flopping on someone. But as I have said I don't find either of you scummy for this as I think it is very much a newbie trait and I just wanted to help.
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EFHW

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 1)
« Reply #681 on: February 06, 2013, 11:08:33 am »


You later make a post saying you find me towny, again this change from scummiest to towny would be construed as scum flip flopping on someone. But as I have said I don't find either of you scummy for this as I think it is very much a newbie trait and I just wanted to help.

Also, I had a concrete reason for finding you towny later on, in reaction to a post you had just made.  So it's not flip-flopping.  I still read you as town, now.

My initial reading of you as scummy was not because you voted for me.  It was because your reasoning seemed flawed.  When I saw it wasn't as flawed as I thought, I backed off.

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sudgy

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #682 on: February 06, 2013, 01:51:51 pm »

mcmc, I was posting about you and robz being scum because that was the only other (simple) alternative to me being scum.  Also, I wasn't just saying that you're scum because you voted for me, I also was giving other reasons as well.  Also, another thing I noticed, was that you were voting on every single wagon...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #683 on: February 06, 2013, 02:09:23 pm »

mcmc, I was posting about you and robz being scum because that was the only other (simple) alternative to me being scum.  Also, I wasn't just saying that you're scum because you voted for me, I also was giving other reasons as well.  Also, another thing I noticed, was that you were voting on every single wagon...

I understand it was just meant as advice because immediately being suspicious of the people that have accused you looks very scummy. I understand if you truly believe me and robz are scum nothing should stop you from making your case, just try to make it clear it is a case you are making independent of our votes on you.

To address me being on each wagon, I had legitimate scum reads on kooshie and you which explain my being on those wagons, Jimm was also on both those wagons. It was helpful as he said because it forced people to make clear stances and can now be examined. The mail-mi lynch was ultimately a lynch based on lurking which I supported more than the lynch on robz lurking because as I have now explained I found robz towny.

While you are still my top scum read I like that you actually looked at the wagons and made some analysis, I urge the remaining player to please say something about the wagons and what you think about it.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #684 on: February 06, 2013, 02:11:57 pm »

Sudgy is caught, flailing scum.
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Kooshie

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #685 on: February 06, 2013, 03:46:19 pm »

If...

Sudgy=scum, then, like robz said, is "caught and flailing."
Sudgy=town, then he said some wrong things and put up a not so great defense.  Sudgy is a vet, right?  Would a vet be like that?  I mean, wouldn't a vet be able to think of and put up a better defense as town?

With all this growing evidence(mostly from mcmc), my scum read on Sudgy has been growing, too.  But I want to hear more from everybody...except mcmc, he has said a lot already.  This includes myself, I'll try to look things over again, and see if I can say something that hasn't already been said.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #686 on: February 06, 2013, 03:47:50 pm »

Sudgy is NOT a vet.
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Kooshie

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #687 on: February 06, 2013, 04:09:01 pm »

Sudgy is NOT a vet.
Is he a newbie, then?  I'm confused about the terms.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #688 on: February 06, 2013, 04:10:18 pm »

Sudgy is NOT a vet.
Is he a newbie, then?  I'm confused about the terms.

He's a newbie.

I have played all the games.

Jimm and raerae have been around for several games. Mcmcsalot too.

Everyone else is a newbie.
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #689 on: February 06, 2013, 04:41:08 pm »

Sudgy is caught, flailing scum.

Can you elaborate?
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #690 on: February 06, 2013, 05:33:22 pm »

Sudgy is NOT a vet.
Is he a newbie, then?  I'm confused about the terms.

I've played a fair bit irl, but never on a forum.  And I'm finding forum mafia surprisingly different than it is irl.

Also, what does flailing mean?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Kooshie

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #691 on: February 06, 2013, 06:28:38 pm »

Sudgy is NOT a vet.
Is he a newbie, then?  I'm confused about the terms.

I've played a fair bit irl, but never on a forum.  And I'm finding forum mafia surprisingly different than it is irl.

Also, what does flailing mean?
Do you mean in this game, or the everyday use for it?
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #692 on: February 06, 2013, 06:57:12 pm »

1) my town read on robz comes from something I have only seen him do as town, I'm extremely unhappy revealing this but I will because it has been talked about enough that I am not confident using it in future games. When robz is town he has a scum hunting strategy where he makes a bad case followed by a vote, he then waits to see who will jump on the case, that will more often be scum jumping on the chance to lynch town. This is also why robz is mislynched as town often, people notice the bad case which ends up looking scummier than anything else. Also as town robz asks people there opinion often and overall plays reactive instead of proactive. His original posts of this game were exactly that.

My heat is apparently out (and I live in a place where heat is desperately required at this time of year) so I'm only addressing this while try to fix that and may not be around much tonight after this post.

Robz' first vote was the hammer on mail-mi so that bit of your excuse isn't a reason why you could have seen robz as town.  He also didn't present ANY cases D1.  He also only asked one question:

Here's a good exercise: What evidence do you have for this?

And his first posts (basically all his D1 posts) in this game were theory talk.  He didn't engage anybody in conversation past that.  Please quote or give me post numbers because I'm not finding any of this in D1.
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sudgy

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #693 on: February 06, 2013, 07:03:38 pm »

Sudgy is NOT a vet.
Is he a newbie, then?  I'm confused about the terms.

I've played a fair bit irl, but never on a forum.  And I'm finding forum mafia surprisingly different than it is irl.

Also, what does flailing mean?
Do you mean in this game, or the everyday use for it?

In the game.


1) my town read on robz comes from something I have only seen him do as town, I'm extremely unhappy revealing this but I will because it has been talked about enough that I am not confident using it in future games. When robz is town he has a scum hunting strategy where he makes a bad case followed by a vote, he then waits to see who will jump on the case, that will more often be scum jumping on the chance to lynch town. This is also why robz is mislynched as town often, people notice the bad case which ends up looking scummier than anything else. Also as town robz asks people there opinion often and overall plays reactive instead of proactive. His original posts of this game were exactly that.

My heat is apparently out (and I live in a place where heat is desperately required at this time of year) so I'm only addressing this while try to fix that and may not be around much tonight after this post.

Robz' first vote was the hammer on mail-mi so that bit of your excuse isn't a reason why you could have seen robz as town.  He also didn't present ANY cases D1.  He also only asked one question:

Here's a good exercise: What evidence do you have for this?

And his first posts (basically all his D1 posts) in this game were theory talk.  He didn't engage anybody in conversation past that.  Please quote or give me post numbers because I'm not finding any of this in D1.

He did do it today.  But of course mcmc was saying this yesterday too.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #694 on: February 06, 2013, 07:16:09 pm »

Okay I'm sorry I exaggerated, sudgy does not have to been scum, I just find it highly unlikely that town had 3 town members on him and scum didnt push the lynch through, scum loves jumping on wagons created by town. If sudgy is scum however it would make sense that his partner would stay off the lynch and try and not let it go through.
I agree.  But before when you said that about the wagons, and how it wasn't scummy for efhw to jump off the wagons, I'm not all that sure about that.  It is possible that efhw was scum, and she put him at L-1 because being a newbie, didn't realize that he only needed one more vote to lynch him, and joined in the first place to follow town?  Or, the opposite, was thinking ahead and joined to, again, go with the crowd, but seeing that people would interpret that as you did if she jumped off before anyone could hammer, left the wagon.  This is just an idea, but it's something to think about.
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sudgy

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 1)
« Reply #695 on: February 06, 2013, 07:21:18 pm »

Yes my previous town read of robz is slipping quickly, though if were going to lynch a lurker I would rather mail-mi because I find his interactions scummier and I thin his flip will b more valuable.

I know this was a while ago, but you have been switching back and forth with your read on robz.  And, when you say he's acting more scummy, you turn the conversation, vote for a VT and bring others along with you.  While I still see Robz as scum, all this I'm seeing with you is enough to make me Vote: mcmcsalot.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

EFHW

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #696 on: February 06, 2013, 07:32:32 pm »

I'd like to go over what makes a post/action seem scummy.  I'll list the things I've gleaned so far, and then hopefully others can fill in the picture.

Being a skillful goon:

1.  Making a case on a townie with lots of certainty and "evidence" in the hopes of causing a mislynch. 
    These arguments tend to inflate the importance of trivial matters and purposely misinterpret what is said.

2.  Trying to seem like town by going along with wagons.

3.  Managing to get off wagons aimed at fellow scum.

4.  Giving good town advice once in awhile to gain town-cred.

5.  Hammering a mislynch after waiting long enough to not seem suspicious.

Being an unskillful goon:

1.  Making arguments against townies that don't make sense or are obviously thin.

2.  Quick-hammering a mislynch.

3.  Jumping around from accusation to accusation because you can't decide what is the towniest position to take.

What have I missed?
 
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #697 on: February 06, 2013, 07:34:58 pm »

THese are the two quotes of robz that made me believe he is town.

Also, having suspicions of a Robz-Raerae Mafia team.

You know, I'm kind of starting to think that too...  I won't change my vote for now, but I'll keep this in mind...

Here's a good exercise: What evidence do you have for this?

I sure have a lot of votes. Why is this? Explain yourselves.

I can't yet tell the new people apart from one another.

Sure its not a lot but out of everything he has posted which is little, this made me lean town, this form of not defending himself and simply posing questions is a somewhat reliable indicator of town!robz.

Lurking is not an indicator of robz being scum or town and he was busy for a very long time, the post sudgy is referring to is the only mention I ever make of having a less than town read on robz, and it is because he was lurking to the extent that I could no longer keep a town read on him. This is strange because while he had still done nothing to make me think he is scum, his lurking was enough to make my town read begin to slip away. He is back now and posting and I hope he continues to contribute, slipping back into lurking would be very scummy at this point.

So I really don't know what you are voting me over, am I correct in thinking you are voting because I said I had a town read on robz and later said it was slipping away. I think you are, just as you did with robz finding me scummy simply because I find you scummy.
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 2)
« Reply #698 on: February 06, 2013, 07:37:04 pm »

Okay I'm sorry I exaggerated, sudgy does not have to been scum, I just find it highly unlikely that town had 3 town members on him and scum didnt push the lynch through, scum loves jumping on wagons created by town. If sudgy is scum however it would make sense that his partner would stay off the lynch and try and not let it go through.
I agree.  But before when you said that about the wagons, and how it wasn't scummy for efhw to jump off the wagons, I'm not all that sure about that.  It is possible that efhw was scum, and she put him at L-1 because being a newbie, didn't realize that he only needed one more vote to lynch him, and joined in the first place to follow town?  Or, the opposite, was thinking ahead and joined to, again, go with the crowd, but seeing that people would interpret that as you did if she jumped off before anyone could hammer, left the wagon.  This is just an idea, but it's something to think about.

this is something I have gone back and forth on, I lean toward this being town!efhw not wanting to let scum hammer, it is possible she is scum but she has been helpful D2 as well, because of these things I am now leaning town on efhw
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Newbie Priority Game - Day 1)
« Reply #699 on: February 06, 2013, 07:43:38 pm »

Alright, I decided to re-read Jimmmmm to try to see if there was any reason someone would want to kill him.

The only people he accused were me and Kooshie.  I obviously think I'm town and that would leave kooshie as the only person with a reason to kill him.  Although I don't know if Kooshie is scum, so it probably was someone's random kill (or someone wanted to kill a vet so newbies could play longer).

I'm still slightly suspicious of both liopoil and kooshie, but am not going to vote yet.

This is a manufactured defense of you killing Jimm.

Vote: sudgy
Sudgy is caught, flailing scum.

Robz seems very certain about Sudgy, and his veteran status makes it tempting to go along.  BUT he may be trying to use his vet-cred to cause a mislynch.  Assume he is misleading us.  Then, after the mislynch followe by a NK, there would be 3 town and 2 scum.  He would be revealed as definitely scum because he misled us about Sudgy.  We lynch him, the other scum NK's someone, and there are 2 town and 1 scum.  Is it possible or likely for town to win in that position?  It would be worth his while to go down with Sudgy if it makes town lose.
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