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Author Topic: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! - Mafia Win Flawlessly  (Read 67801 times)

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theory

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2013, 11:37:14 am »


Also, also, can we keep veterans off the sign-up list until we get closer to the end?  It could be discouraging for new players if they see a sign up full or nearly full.  It's my experience that newbies are nervous and unless they know somebody in this subset of the forums, it can be intimidating to just pop in and say "Hey, guys, can I play too?"  Think back to the playground to relate to this one, guys.
I understood what she was saying, and I agree with her.  Maybe none of  one here ever set foot on a playground, raerae.  (BTW, playground bully references don't always go over well here, so if you continue to use them, make sure you're not a victim of bad timing.)

If this was supposed to be a newbie game, then clearly that changed. Hell, even the name of the thread changed.  That's fine, it's Ash's game.  But if it's no longer supposed to be a newbie game, then just say so. Otherwise, here's the mixed message that I see:

It's nice that there is a semi-definition of the term "newbie-game" in the OP, but that is lip service if the definition is not applied (uniformly) as the first filter for entry.

It's nice that there is a disclaimer that reads "Newbies will be given priority sign-ups..." but they weren't. Eevee and Robz are in at positions #4 and 7, and the thread is JUST NOW 36 hours old. (Yeah, I see the "if needed" phrase. It reads as a direct contradiction.  It's either a newbie game, by the definition, or it's not.)

It's nice that that same disclaimer contains a clause that reads "and appropriate considerations taken to ensure new players get the most out of their mafia experience", but that is just lip service if such considerations only begin after the Day 1 start.  Why wouldn't comfort level during the signup process be one of those considerations? Why wouldn't clear communication that newbs are wanted and truly prioritized be one of those considerations? 

Sure, I saw post #23, but here's the thing.  It's at #23.  It's not in the OP.  And if I am still truly wondering whether Ash really would remove Robz or Eevee, then what in the world would newbs be thinking? Let's look at the data available just in this thread:

a) Not a new category! Category changed. Thread name changed.
b) Mafia X was newb too! Hmm, not really: ashersky, Jorbles, Cuzz, GeoLib, Robz888, O, Captain_Frisk, Eevee, and Morgrim7/Voltaire
c) Ridiculous, unacceptable, and offensive! to the notion of just waiting to the end of sign ups to add veterans to the game
d) No response at all to the notion "if there is a sudden rush of Newbies I'd hope veterans such as Robz will be first in line to give up their spot." (BTW, Jim, a cogent, valuable, and commendable post)

Yeah, if I'm a newb, I don't think I'd be interested in this one.

So I ask: If a true newb game is desired, then why not phrase the disclaimer as "Newbies will be given priority sign-ups, and more experienced players will not be added unless needed to start the game"? WOW, now that's a novel concept, wonder why no one thought of it, or posted it?

Further, I submit that a new category (Newbie Mafia) is PRECISELY what we need to keep new players coming in, and feeling welcome.  We've recently had a little spike in that population, and we should do all we can to perpetuate it. I also suspect that the world will not end if there is a Mafia game on f.DS that any one player doesn't get to play in.

I gave this post an invisible +1.
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bozzball

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2013, 11:37:45 am »

I am interested in this game purely dependent on it being OK for newb's. I was in a game before, and felt a little bit underexperienced.
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2013, 11:39:56 am »

+1 SfS
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2013, 12:04:36 pm »

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2013, 12:06:00 pm »

This all comes down to the desperate need to get games filled up quickly, which doesn't happen any more because there are too many games.

PPE:
If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

I thought this was the idea anyways wasn't it?
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2013, 12:12:05 pm »

I agree with the name newbie mafia I. I haven't heard of Yuma's rankings. And yes, I think it is open to everyone, but newbies get priority in this one in the case of more than 9 people wanting to play. When is fills up we should probably wait a bit before starting it to give newbies more time to find it. With three new people already in and two others who are somewhat new too I don't think there will be a problem of too may experienced people.
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2013, 12:24:40 pm »

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.
LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2013, 12:31:39 pm »

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

First of all I'm not posting here to "in" (To be clear I'm /out I have yet to take a space in a newbie game), but Robz man newbies are just as entitled to be in yuma's rankings as we are even if it is a newbie only game, MI was newb only, M2 Was newb only + Robz. they have a right to know their stats just as much as we do.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2013, 12:32:34 pm »

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.
LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.

I am under no illusion that I will, or must, get what I want. No one is in charge here. Obviously, there's nothing to stop ashersky from running a game that is open to every player but Robz (except that I'm sure he wouldn't do that, because he is a fair and accommodating person, and hopefully my friends would refuse to play a game that deliberately excluded me). I'm just saying what I would like to see, okay?
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2013, 12:37:49 pm »

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

First of all I'm not posting here to "in" (To be clear I'm /out I have yet to take a space in a newbie game), but Robz man newbies are just as entitled to be in yuma's rankings as we are even if it is a newbie only game, MI was newb only, M2 Was newb only + Robz. they have a right to know their stats just as much as we do.

But those games were not "newbie only" in the sense that they dissuaded non-new players from playing. No one was bumped from the game for not being a new player.

But, okay, whatever is amenable to everyone else is fine. I should not have asked ashersky to change the name--I assumed this was going to be a newbie-encouraged game of mafia (like VII and X), rather than like a real, real, mostly all newbies game. My suggestion is, if it's to really be a newbie game, to exclude all veteran players, change it back to Newbie Mafia I, and fine, include on the rankings if you want. Well, I mean, that's up to yuma, but presumably he will if most people want it. I don't even have a problem with that, I guess, it was just the default that came to mind.
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2013, 12:43:33 pm »

I'm not trying to get under anybody's skin. I'm sorry if my tone implied, like, authoritarian decree, or something. Again, I am not in charge.

I'm just ever-so-slightly skeptical of going out of our way to create artificial newbie games. The best newbies have successfully integrated themselves into complex, non-newbie games (think of cayvie in VI, shraeye and sparky IX, Munch in XI).

But it's certainly true that we have too many games for too few players, so I'm willing to entertain doing something like this (and again, it's not what-I-say-goes, so even if I was really opposed, it could still happen). (Of course I also think some people are too eager to moderate without signing up to play a reasonable number of games.)
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Galzria

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2013, 12:43:39 pm »

SFS, while I fully understand the points you've made, I also understand Robz' position. He's not saying "I must be in every game and how dare you not include me" - he's saying "look, if the game is going to count on Yuma's leaderboard, that tracks stats from a subset of (to date) all normally named games and all blitz games, then it should not exclude anybody for any reason. Every game that has been counted has been open to all, and it should stay that way to be equally fair towards the vets as new people."

I don't think that Robz, or anybody else here thinks that having a strictly newb category is a bad idea. It's a great launching pad to bring in new people. It should be named as such, and as you've said, given every priority to making new people welcome. That's a great idea. But just like RMM or BM games are not "counted" on the leaderboard, neither should this new category. Because the moment you exclude someone, but still count the game in the official stats, the stats are skewed.

Coming from your background where correct data is so very important, I would hope that you could understand that point.
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Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2013, 12:46:03 pm »

Exactly, what Galzria said.
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2013, 12:53:03 pm »

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.
LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.

I am under no illusion that I will, or must, get what I want. But you have so far is my point. No one is in charge here. Well, technically Ash is. Obviously, there's nothing to stop ashersky from running a game that is open to every player but Robz (except that I'm sure he wouldn't do that, because he is a fair and accommodating person or he wants to run a newb game?, and hopefully my friends would refuse to play a game that deliberately excluded me so you do have some playground experience. No one is deliberately excluding you, you simply don't qualify. Although, in fairness, you may feel deliberately excluded from AARP and the LPGA, just to name two examples.) I'm just saying what I would like to see, okay?  I'm open to that notion, but everything you've said has had the tone and the form of instructions, which I believe is contributing to an atmosphere that is less than welcoming, and less than conducive to growing the player population.  I'm just saying what I've seen, okay?
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2013, 12:55:59 pm »

Yeah, I think I'm /out.
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2013, 12:56:53 pm »

To be clear Robz I'm not actually taking offense I just didn't see why it shouldn't count on the leaderboard.

Because the moment you exclude someone, but still count the game in the official stats, the stats are skewed.

This is a good reason though. Although is it really that skewed considering when we started we got 100% newbie games?
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2013, 01:01:12 pm »

Yeah, I think I'm /out.

Congrats, guys.  That's two newbies out of the newbie game.  I'm giving you the most disapproving mom look I can muster.  Seriously, I expected more of you based on my interactions with you in Buffy and Blitz.  You guys are great people and not showing that right now.  If you wanted your little corner of the internet to be members only you should have locked it down and assigned a password.
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2013, 01:05:13 pm »

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.
LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.

I am under no illusion that I will, or must, get what I want. But you have so far is my point.Okay, well, if I'm correct, or the moderator agrees with me, or most people agree with me, I would expect to get my way. Your "we will conform to your wishes at all times sir" comment implied to me that you thought that I thought I expected to get my way just because I have an inflated sense of self-importance or leadership or something. That is not the case, I am saying. No one is in charge here. Well, technically Ash is.Of this game, yes. I mean, no one is in charge of the Forum Games community in general. Well, I guess theory is, but you get what I mean. Obviously, there's nothing to stop ashersky from running a game that is open to every player but Robz (except that I'm sure he wouldn't do that, because he is a fair and accommodating person or he wants to run a newb game?I was using an extreme example. He can run a newbie game, sure. If he ran a game that deliberately excluded one specific player, that would be pretty mean; I'm not saying that's what is happening here. It isn't., and hopefully my friends would refuse to play a game that deliberately excluded me so you do have some playground experience. No one is deliberately excluding you, you simply don't qualify. Although, in fairness, you may feel deliberately excluded from AARP and the LPGA, just to name two examples.I think we're talking past each other? I don't feel deliberately excluded for this game, if it is an all newbie game, no.) I'm just saying what I would like to see, okay?  I'm open to that notion, but everything you've said has had the tone and the form of instructions, which I believe is contributing to an atmosphere that is less than welcoming, and less than conducive to growing the player population.  I'm just saying what I've seen, okay?I'm sorry if you think the atmosphere is less than welcoming. You could be right; Raerae and shraeye seem to think you are right. Perhaps you are right. I have trouble understanding specifically how this forum is unwelcoming, except that there's a bit of a learning curve to understanding references to past games. Of course hosting an all or mostly newbie game does nothing to address that issue.
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2013, 01:11:26 pm »

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.
LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.

I am under no illusion that I will, or must, get what I want. But you have so far is my point.Okay, well, if I'm correct, or the moderator agrees with me, or most people agree with me, I would expect to get my way. Your "we will conform to your wishes at all times sir" comment implied to me that you thought that I thought I expected to get my way just because I have an inflated sense of self-importance or leadership or something. That is not the case, I am saying. No one is in charge here. Well, technically Ash is.Of this game, yes. I mean, no one is in charge of the Forum Games community in general. Well, I guess theory is, but you get what I mean. Obviously, there's nothing to stop ashersky from running a game that is open to every player but Robz (except that I'm sure he wouldn't do that, because he is a fair and accommodating person or he wants to run a newb game?I was using an extreme example. He can run a newbie game, sure. If he ran a game that deliberately excluded one specific player, that would be pretty mean; I'm not saying that's what is happening here. It isn't., and hopefully my friends would refuse to play a game that deliberately excluded me so you do have some playground experience. No one is deliberately excluding you, you simply don't qualify. Although, in fairness, you may feel deliberately excluded from AARP and the LPGA, just to name two examples.I think we're talking past each other? I don't feel deliberately excluded for this game, if it is an all newbie game, no.) I'm just saying what I would like to see, okay?  I'm open to that notion, but everything you've said has had the tone and the form of instructions, which I believe is contributing to an atmosphere that is less than welcoming, and less than conducive to growing the player population.  I'm just saying what I've seen, okay?I'm sorry if you think the atmosphere is less than welcoming. You could be right; Raerae and shraeye seem to think you are right. Perhaps you are right. I have trouble understanding specifically how this forum is unwelcoming, except that there's a bit of a learning curve to understanding references to past games. Of course hosting an all or mostly newbie game does nothing to address that issue.

Also, also, can we keep veterans off the sign-up list until we get closer to the end?  It could be discouraging for new players if they see a sign up full or nearly full.  It's my experience that newbies are nervous and unless they know somebody in this subset of the forums, it can be intimidating to just pop in and say "Hey, guys, can I play too?"  Think back to the playground to relate to this one, guys.

Ridiculous, unacceptable, and offensive.

It isn't the learning curve, it's comments like this.
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2013, 01:13:44 pm »

His comment was fine if Ashersky was going to name this XXI. If it is indeed Newb I, then I agree with yours Raerae.
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Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2013, 01:14:09 pm »

Yeah, I think I'm /out.

Congrats, guys.  That's two newbies out of the newbie game.  I'm giving you the most disapproving mom look I can muster.  Seriously, I expected more of you based on my interactions with you in Buffy and Blitz.  You guys are great people and not showing that right now.  If you wanted your little corner of the internet to be members only you should have locked it down and assigned a password.

I emphatically do not want that. Why do you think I am arguing that? Of course I want more new player, new players are great. I'm not even against a newbie game!

But Bozzball outing is like a good example of why my skepticism is I think well founded. First of all, Bozzball is not a newbie. He played Mafia II. It was my second game, and the first game to feature Galzria, Jotheonah, Insomniac, and Voltgloss. So really, this was a newbie game, since I was the only player there who had played a game before (and just one). Bozzball under-contributed substantially.

The game was extremely short and non-demanding, by modern standards. It's only 20 or 30 pages, I think.

So, 1) I don't really see how this mild debate between SFS and I affects Bozzball wanting to play, although he implies that it does
2) He has played already, in a game that was probably at least as newbie friendly as this one will be

I question whether mafia is right for him, based on his own comments and history. (Although if he wants to play, he should! I just think he's likely to be disappointed in the experience regardless.)

So it makes me a bit skeptical of the idea of a newbie game, and that's partly where I am coming from. But by all means, we should have one, and I will stay out of it (although again, it should go back to being Newbie Mafia I).
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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2013, 01:16:02 pm »

His comment was fine if Ashersky was going to name this XXI. If it is indeed Newb I, then I agree with yours Raerae.

If it is indeed Newb I, I also agree with raerae. I'm sorry for making the suggestion that it be changed; I just didn't want a whole new category of games, if the game was going to be similar to M-I, M-II, M-VII, and M-X.
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SwitchedFromStarcraft

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2013, 01:20:44 pm »

SFS, while I fully understand the points you've made, I also understand Robz' position. He's not saying "I must be in every game and how dare you not include me" - he's saying "look, if the game is going to count on Yuma's leaderboard, that tracks stats from a subset of (to date) all normally named games and all blitz games, then it should not exclude anybody for any reason. Every game that has been counted has been open to all, and it should stay that way to be equally fair towards the vets as new people."  I understand that point, and I don't give a flip about the stats, so the opinions of those who do should matter more than mine, but I would point out that a) there is a contradiction between the concept of "it should not exclude anybody for any reason" and the concept of including only "all normally named games and all blitz games", as games are then being not counted simply on the basis of name; and b) if the stats could or will be affected by including results from games with a some (relatively) high percentage of newbies, then show me how the first few "normally named games" (in which, EVERYONE was a newbie, by definition) have been left out of the current stats, in a designed effort to avoid "skewing".  Maybe I missed that.

I don't think that Robz, or anybody else here thinks that having a strictly newb category is a bad idea well, I don't see how you can say that given what he posted, but ok. It's a great launching pad to bring in new people. It should be named as such not according to Robz, he requested a change, as this WAS a newb game, and as you've said, given every priority to making new people welcome. That's a great idea. But just like RMM or BM games are not "counted" on the leaderboard, neither should this new category. Because the moment you exclude someone, but still count the game in the official stats, the stats are skewed. Of course they are.  Stats are skewed every time Player X didn't play in game Y, which was a normally named game.  He was excluded, because the game was for 9 people, and he was the 11th guy to sign up. How do we handle that?

Coming from your background where correct data is so very important, I would hope that you could understand that point. I do, hence my comments above. But my posting today (prior to this one) has not come from position that in any way is concerned about the statistics, and what games count. But in case I've been misunderstood, my concern is about how welcoming we are to newbs. The statistics crap is just deflection in my opinion.
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bozzball

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2013, 01:22:59 pm »

So, 1) I don't really see how this mild debate between SFS and I affects Bozzball wanting to play, although he implies that it does
2) He has played already, in a game that was probably at least as newbie friendly as this one will be

I question whether mafia is right for him, based on his own comments and history. (Although if he wants to play, he should! I just think he's likely to be disappointed in the experience regardless.)

It may well be true that Mafia is not right for me, but I enjoy games in the play-by-forum format, and want to give Mafia a second go, since it seems to be the most popular. I've enjoyed playing The Resistance and Witches Brew in this format, and assume I will enjoy playing Puerto Rico, Through the Ages and Power Grid in this format as well.

What put me off the first time, and put me off again this time is how much more seriously people in this forum seem to take Mafia than the other games.
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raerae

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Re: Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party! (Sign-ups Open)
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2013, 01:27:03 pm »

So, 1) I don't really see how this mild debate between SFS and I affects Bozzball wanting to play, although he implies that it does
2) He has played already, in a game that was probably at least as newbie friendly as this one will be

I question whether mafia is right for him, based on his own comments and history. (Although if he wants to play, he should! I just think he's likely to be disappointed in the experience regardless.)

It may well be true that Mafia is not right for me, but I enjoy games in the play-by-forum format, and want to give Mafia a second go, since it seems to be the most popular. I've enjoyed playing The Resistance and Witches Brew in this format, and assume I will enjoy playing Puerto Rico, Through the Ages and Power Grid in this format as well.

What put me off the first time, and put me off again this time is how much more seriously people in this forum seem to take Mafia than the other games.

Hey Bozzy, I'm going to proposition you.  If you play, I'll play, and we'll have too much fun that the rest of the serious goobers here will realize how much fun this game can, and should, be that they'll all want to play like us from now on until forever.  Deal?
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